Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It's a completely asinine "trade" - for that very reason. If he was healthy, the Colts wouldn't even dream of trading him for the picks, and if he wasn't why would the Browns give up those picks for him?
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Cleveland Browns (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Ian RapoportVerified account @RapSheet
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#Browns coach Hue Jackson said LT Joe Thomas will “come out and let us know fairly soon about what he wants to do.” ... I’m told he is preparing to play, and those who know him well believe he’ll be back.
6:56 AM - 28 Feb 2018
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If Joe comes back we've got enough picks to get someone who may not be ready but with him coming back it gives us time to groom his replacement and he would be a great mentor especially since he sits part of camp and some practice days during the season to give up valuable reps.
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#Browns coach Hue Jackson said LT Joe Thomas will “come out and let us know fairly soon about what he wants to do.” ... I’m told he is preparing to play, and those who know him well believe he’ll be back.
6:56 AM - 28 Feb 2018
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If Joe comes back we've got enough picks to get someone who may not be ready but with him coming back it gives us time to groom his replacement and he would be a great mentor especially since he sits part of camp and some practice days during the season to give up valuable reps.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If what I've read about the incoming class is true I'm more interested in the veteran route then pick a devy type sometime day 3 that we're not married to beyond Sep 1.Ian RapoportVerified account @RapSheet
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#Browns coach Hue Jackson said LT Joe Thomas will “come out and let us know fairly soon about what he wants to do.” ... I’m told he is preparing to play, and those who know him well believe he’ll be back.
6:56 AM - 28 Feb 2018
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If Joe comes back we've got enough picks to get someone who may not be ready but with him coming back it gives us time to groom his replacement and he would be a great mentor especially since he sits part of camp and some practice days during the season to give up valuable reps.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Its a poor class but someone with tools who needs time someone like a Kolton Miller who 'should' be their in the second.
The Steeler OLT said all he did to get better was watch tape of Joe Thomas. He didn't look like much when he first started playing but he's a Pro Bowler today.
I think that we could/should double-dip down on a guy like Ben Toth with a mid-round pick. He has a two year military commitment so he will be older and not available but he's got first round type talent.
He'd be insurance if whoever we take isn't coming along since Joe 'should' be back for at least one year and he might do the retirement limbo walk for another year or two so we might be facing this sort of situation for a few more years. It would be good to have a prospect in the pipeline.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Potential trade partner for the Browns?
Now it would likely take more than Landry and pick 11 to move up to 1 but it's an interesting starting point.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Why would you give up anything for the right to overpay Landry?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Not sure Landry carries much trade value. If they want to move up from pick 11 to pick 1 quite a bit needs to be added, like 1sts and 2nds this year and next, plus probably a 2020 1st, even with Landry in the deal.
Moving up to pick 4 is more realistic. Picks 11 and 43 this year, 2019 1st, and Landry maybe.
Moving up to pick 4 is more realistic. Picks 11 and 43 this year, 2019 1st, and Landry maybe.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Miami WILL get something for him, but it isn't going to be much.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
The Browns are not lacking cap space and he would help their offense move the ball - especially since he would not need to be the top WR there.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yeah they would surely need to add at least a future first and something more, I agree.
4 is an option as well - but if the Dolphins wanted Rosen, that likely wouldn't work for them.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I think the G-Men want Rosen so if he is Miami's target then I just don't see it happening unless they gave up a ton for the top pick.
Whoever doesn't get Cousins will be looking to trade up for a QB. I'm not sure the top pick is available but #4 might if the right offer and situation opens up.
Miami's pick is about as far down as I would want to fall from #4.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If we were to draft a QB, I would like to have Landry. I think he would be a huge help.
Thing is, if we are taking a QB, it will be at pick 1 (at least it damn well better be if we intend to draft a QB high). So unless their QB falls to 4, wouldnt happen anyway.
Unless they want to just trade Landry for a pick, like a 3rd or 4th, then I would be happy about that if we take a QB at 1.
Thing is, if we are taking a QB, it will be at pick 1 (at least it damn well better be if we intend to draft a QB high). So unless their QB falls to 4, wouldnt happen anyway.
Unless they want to just trade Landry for a pick, like a 3rd or 4th, then I would be happy about that if we take a QB at 1.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
There are other "rumors" that Miami loves Mayfield, so if the Browns took Darnold or Rosen and Mayfield did last until pick 4, then that is a scenario where this could work.
I can also see them acquiring Landry by just trading a mid-round pick, like you said. I'm not even a huge Landry fan, but he would be a good fit for them since they have more cap space then they could use and he'd be a valuable possession guy for a young QB and not need to be the focal point of an offense.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Yep.
And if we did deal down from 4 to 11 this year, we better get more than Just Landry. I woudlnt even want to do that for 11, Landry, and their 2nd rounder this year. The value chart says picks 11/43 basically equals pick 4, but still not.
11, 2019 1st, and Landry................perhaps. If this is for a QB, we can probably also get the 2nd this year.
Miami has not been on my radar at all for a trade down, so havent really thought about any of this.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Oh, we would.
The options are going to become more clear once the Cousins drama is over with. If he goes to a team not on the public radar right now, or Minnesota, then things are going to get interesting with the draft trades.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I had thought about it because I don't think much of Tannenhill and never did. Cutler did fine last year and they got a taste of what a banged up Cutler could do to compare to what Tanny has given them. I think they would love to move on from Tannenhill and his contract.
The only reason I'd be interested in dealing with Miami is because I think they are the last spot I'd feel comfortable trading down.
- CLE - QB (Take yer pick, Darnold/Rosen/Mayfield/Allen) Even if trade happened it would be QB
- NYG - QB Rosen/Darnold/Allen/Mayfield
- IND - DE Bradley Chubb
- CLE - DB Minka Fitzpatrick/RB Saquon Barkley/trade down
- DEN - QB Baker Mayfield
- NYJ - QB Josh Allen/OG Quentin Nelson if they don't land Kirk Cousins
- TB - RB Saquon Barkley/SS Derwin Williams/DE Marcus Davenport
- CHI - LB Tremaine Edwards
- SF - LB Roquan Smith
- OAK - CB Denzel Ward
I think either CB Denzel Ward or CB Josh Jackson would be available and DE Marcus Davenport would 'likely' be available unless TB takes him at #7 but that would bump someone else down the board. The issues that San Francisco has had with Reuben Foster probably have pushed LB as top need. Oakland could go LB or DB. Chicago could even go WR.
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Statorama
Footballguy
I can imagine the Browns passing on Barkley at 4 drawing an audible gasp from the room
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Oh no, not a gasp.Statorama said:
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Pete Smith @_PeteSmith_ 13h13 hours ago
If the Browns legitimately view Minkah Fitzpatrick as a boundary corner (as Hue suggested), unless he bombs something in the process or the Colts get nuts, hard to imagine he's not the pick at 4.
Peak
Footballguy
I wouldn't care if it's B.Chubb, M.Fitzpatrick or S.Barkley - As long as the other pick is a QB, it doesn't matter. All three are top players in this draft.
IMO - Chubb is a nice to have with Garrett on the other side. The team could survive without Chubb, but would improve the defense.
Fitzpatrick is a great addition that would bolster the secondary, either as CB or FS.
Barkley is a dynamic talent that would bolster the offense immediately.
This team has many holes to fill - just pick some players and let's go!
IMO - Chubb is a nice to have with Garrett on the other side. The team could survive without Chubb, but would improve the defense.
Fitzpatrick is a great addition that would bolster the secondary, either as CB or FS.
Barkley is a dynamic talent that would bolster the offense immediately.
This team has many holes to fill - just pick some players and let's go!
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Mike KlisVerified account @MikeKlis 20h20 hours ago
John Elway said he would be “open for business” with his No 5 draft pick. Meaning willing to trade. #9sports
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/draft/2018/02/28/nfl-combine-live-thursday-updates-coaches-general-managers/380630002/
Trade time?
Perhaps John Elway is just testing the waters, but the Broncos executive vice president of football operations says he would be open to trading the No. 5 overall pick in April's draft.
Elway added that "life is too short to rebuild in the NFL."
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Que dramatic music.
Dun, dun, duuunnnnnnnnnnnnn!
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Gregg RosenthalVerified account @greggrosenthal
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Browns GM Dorsey: my door is wide open for a trade at no. 1. “Give me a call and see what’s up.”
9:02 AM - 1 Mar 2018
Dun, dun, duuunnnnnnnnnnnnn!
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Gregg RosenthalVerified account @greggrosenthal
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Browns GM Dorsey: my door is wide open for a trade at no. 1. “Give me a call and see what’s up.”
9:02 AM - 1 Mar 2018
beer 30
Footballguy
I heard him say that today, think he almost has to doesn't he? I don't think they trade out of the pick unless they can still get their target and grab another 1 or 2 picks.
Dorsey also said the board always tells him who to pick and he's never gone against the board meaning getting a text from a drunk kid telling the QB coach he'll wreck this league and then picking said QB. Oddly enough, the kid was right, he wrecked the Browns.
daveR
Footballguy
Everyone agrees that they have the resources to augment the talent on this team significantly. In YOUR mind, what would it take to make you happy with their work this off-season, with regard to playing talent? If the only thing they accomplished was adding a bridge QB and drafting their future stud #1, everyone else busting, would this be enough? What's YOUR minimum?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
What is the most cap money we can spend on this years cap while still being able to carry over the max amount of cap for 2019?
Hopefully i phrased that question so someone can understand it.
Hopefully i phrased that question so someone can understand it.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Pretty confusing how you worded it but if you meant something like how much can we spend and carry forward enough cap to still be near the top of all NFL teams available cap then PFT said we could sign Drew Brees with a $50 million up front fully guaranteed contract and only 4 NFL teams would have more cap space.
IOWs we could pony-up a fully guaranteed $60 million signing bonus to a Kirk Cousins and turn around and trade him to Denver for the 5th pick in the draft and would still be in the top 12 of all NFL teams with available cap space.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I guess i will try to word it differently.
Say we were to spend absolutely nothing this offseason. How much cap space would we have heading into 2019?
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
IOWs what is the minimum we can spend since the NFL forces teams to spend the minimum.
Good question.
It is a bit complicated since the NFL requires an 89% cash spend over a 4 year period.
This explains the requirement.
https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/3/8/11181686/cleveland-browns-salary-cap-understanding-the-89-cash-spending
I really don't know where we stand but we have to be near the max of what we can carry forward without violating the 89% requirement rule.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
All of it, I believe. I don't think there's a rollover maximum.
Cash spending is not related to salary cap. Very simple example:
Cleveland signs Kirk Cousins to a 5 year $200M deal. $100M signing bonus and $20M per year in salary.
The $100M signing bonus is spread out over the 5 years of the contract, so each year is $20M allocation.
2018 - cap hit $40M ($20M salary + $20M signing bonus allocation)
2019 - cap hit $40M ($20M salary + $20M signing bonus allocation)
2020 - cap hit $40M ($20M salary + $20M signing bonus allocation)
2021 - cap hit $40M ($20M salary + $20M signing bonus allocation)
2022 - cap hit $40M ($20M salary + $20M signing bonus allocation)
All of the $100M counts toward cash outlay in 2018
2018 - cash spending $120M ($20M salary + $100M signing bonus paid)
2019 - cash spending $20M ($20M salary)
2020 - cash spending $20M ($20M salary)
2021 - cash spending $20M ($20M salary)
2022 - cash spending $20M ($20M salary)
2017 was the first year of the 4 year window you reference, and Cleveland spent a ton of cash already mostly because of the OL signing bonuses:
https://twitter.com/NFLPA/status/968242226743709696/photo/1 - note this was incorrectly construed to be a Salary Cap report by a Steelers writer recently. It's not.
You'll note a bunch of teams spent more than the Salary Cap on that report - it's because of what I'm saying, cash outlay doesn't all hit the salary cap the year it's paid out since signing bonuses are spread out. So Cleveland paid out a gob of cash to Zeitler and Tretter so are way ahead of the cash spending curve already.
beer 30
Footballguy
What you mentioned is paramount to me, bridge QB and the future stud. After that CB/S, OT (need to find Joe's replacement), WR (but to a lesser extent since there doesn't seem to be any studs this year). BPA after that.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Right, but I think he's saying everything else busts, all the FA's and draft picks of CB/S, OT, WR, etc and BPA. Would you be happy with just finding the right bridge and young QB in 2018 to move forward with?
While the scenario is unrealistic if I'm even looking at it correctly, it gets Hue canned (he likely will not win enough games by simply adding the right bridge QB to what he won zero games with last year) and the Browns are set at QB for 10+ years, so I'd potentially be fine with it. And if during this process they turned some of our 2018 picks into 2019-2020 picks, that's a bonus.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
- If teams have to spend 89% cash outlay over a 4 year period then their has to be a minimum spend at some point limiting how much they could carry over.
- Cousins might be looking for a max guarantee on a three year deal without giving any team options on a long term deal according to Yahoo.
QUESTION.
If Kirk was able to sign a three year deal with one team and got traded to another then the team acquiring him would not have to pay out the signing bonus and would be taking only base cap hits over that period and would be in position to extend or cut him after three years basically getting a three year prove-it deal. Correct?
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
I more and more like the idea of (if we can't get Cousins ourselves) a sign and trade with Denver using Cousins.
I want more than pick 5. That will be huge chunk of change in cap we have to spend, but very worth it to us with the amount of cap we would have, the picks we would have, and the inevitable trades for future picks we would make.
Chances of it happening are quite slim, but until it DOESN;T happen I will be dreaming about that. I mean, do you pay like 60 million of cap space over the next couple years for the #5 pick in the draft? We could sign like 4 really good free agents for that (if free agents actually wanted to come here).
I say yes, because free agents DON'T want to come here.
Some teams just have to use their cap space differently than others ya know
I want more than pick 5. That will be huge chunk of change in cap we have to spend, but very worth it to us with the amount of cap we would have, the picks we would have, and the inevitable trades for future picks we would make.
Chances of it happening are quite slim, but until it DOESN;T happen I will be dreaming about that. I mean, do you pay like 60 million of cap space over the next couple years for the #5 pick in the draft? We could sign like 4 really good free agents for that (if free agents actually wanted to come here).
I say yes, because free agents DON'T want to come here.
Some teams just have to use their cap space differently than others ya know
daveR
Footballguy
Agreed. It really isn't realistic.
What do you think is realistic? Let's say they shoot 50%. Is that realistic & is it sufficient to satisfy the fan base?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
50% in the draft is pretty good I would tend to think.
We have no many good picks and so much cap, and so many ways this could go, I can't say whether or not I am ok with something until it happens.
We have no many good picks and so much cap, and so many ways this could go, I can't say whether or not I am ok with something until it happens.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
So, are you saying that we have to hit on some draft picks first? If so, will free agents want to come here then?I more and more like the idea of (if we can't get Cousins ourselves) a sign and trade with Denver using Cousins.
I want more than pick 5. That will be huge chunk of change in cap we have to spend, but very worth it to us with the amount of cap we would have, the picks we would have, and the inevitable trades for future picks we would make.
Chances of it happening are quite slim, but until it DOESN;T happen I will be dreaming about that. I mean, do you pay like 60 million of cap space over the next couple years for the #5 pick in the draft? We could sign like 4 really good free agents for that (if free agents actually wanted to come here).
I say yes, because free agents DON'T want to come here.
Some teams just have to use their cap space differently than others ya know
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Well, if all we ever do is draft players and never sign free agents, then yeah, seems obvious we would need to hit on some picks.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Also, I said this before, but we HAVE to build a dome here. Yes, I legitimately do think that would greatly help with free agents avoiding us for a variety of reasons.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Check out the vid of Baker at the Combine when asked what he felt about going to the Browns.
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https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/969650161994600448
Mary Kay CabotVerified account @MaryKayCabot
FollowFollow @MaryKayCabot
Baker Mayfield believes there’s no one better than him to turn around the #Browns
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https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/969650161994600448
Mary Kay CabotVerified account @MaryKayCabot
FollowFollow @MaryKayCabot
Baker Mayfield believes there’s no one better than him to turn around the #Browns
ghostguy123
Footballguy
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Chubb, Barkley, and the three QBs are shaping up to be locks in the first five. I thought Barkley would fall into the second tier instead of the first. Whoever drafts 5th will now be getting a top tier talent (assuming the QBs don't slip).
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Only if you're being overly literal. No, a team can't go 4 consecutive years without paying any players. But as a practical matter Cleveland could pull that off this year quite easily. They already have a ton of guys under contract at $127M this year. That plus the $178M they spent last year puts them at $305M which is 87.8% for the two years cumulative. So even if they don't sign a single new player for 2018 they will hardly be "behind pace" going into the final two years.
Cousins' contract demands are irrelevant for an example, not sure why you even bring that up.
Correct. If they wanted to the Browns could pay out the signing bonus then trade him. Doing so would put the entire salary cap hit of the bonus against the 2018 cap.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I think the free agents don't want to come here narrative is a little overblown these days. Most free agents that hit the market do so for a reason and it's not always positive. If someone doesn't want to come here because of the weather, for example, I don't want him anyways. Alot of these types of guys are ruled out quickly, I imagine. We need to splash on the right guys, not just the guys that command the most money. There are things we can do better: like win some games Hue and Co, and get rid of the distractions that we've become more known for lately than winning (which includes the way you treat your own free agents).
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If all things equal would you rather have nice weather or THIS weather?
Not to mention things arent equal anyway.
Its not overblown. The more attractive teams are getting good players who want to win and take less money to do so.
