Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Cleveland Browns (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
MAC_32
Footballguy
Those two things won't both happen. Trent's signing a long term deal. The only question right now is when. If he signs that deal with the Browns then we are not drafting an OT at 10. Given the state of the team and the upcoming contract extensions I struggle enough thinking how signing Kline to multiple years makes sense. Trent's a whole 'nother level.
I want to see what else we do on defense before I judge though. Cause the time to buy is now. To get in the 2022 comp pick formula and begin to repeat the process year-to-year we can't be active in free agency. So this is the window to buy free agents.
daveR
Footballguy
I guess it depends who falls. Top players outside of OT & QB are Young, Simmons, Okudah, Brown. Don't get me wrong, I love O-linemen, but it'd be nice to have that flexibility, just in case. It's a question, at least to me, whether I'd take one of those guys over the fourth OT . Probably Young & Simmons, yes. Maybe the other two, though we have less of a need.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
(thehuddle) The NFL's top-three edge defenders in 2019 ranked by win rate of beating their opponent, according to ProFootballFocus.com, were Cleveland Browns DE Myles Garrett (25.9 percent), Houston Texans DE J.J. Watt (23.7 percent), and Los Angeles Chargers DE Joey Bosa (23.1 percent).
DocHolliday
Footballguy
What is the point of this? The question is what would you have to include with Baker to trade for Watson?
Hell no. Watch how bad Watson is gonna be without arguably the best WR in the game.
Watch how good Baker is gonna be without Monken as OC and Kittchens as NC.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If the 4th OT is an elite OT then it's still at elite OT. This is not your typical OT class. I agree about taking Young if he is there (he won't) but I'd need convinced on Okudah and especially Simmons. Brown is a hard no for me. He's great, but OT is a more valuable position when all else is equal.
daveR
Footballguy
Considering it's BOB, maybe nothing. He's dumping players he doesn't like. Watson apparently wants out. He gets more time to figure out sal-cap stuff (contract years). Baker was a 1.01 so maybe that carries some weight. And, ultimately, the point of this is to assuage my boredom.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
BOB is an idiot so anything is possible. Please carry on with your methods to remove your boredom since it is also helping this guy.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Reports say teams are all over the map on the top-four OTs. I like the exact same two as Pete Smith.
------------------------------------
Pete Smith@_PeteSmith_
Short of Wirfs or Thomas, that's where I'm at...
Mullins@mittmullins
They’re trading back all day imo.
2:01 PM · Mar 29, 2020
------------------------------------
EXACTLY what I've been thinking.
Of the top-four I'm only interested in Tristan Wirfs, OT/OG, Iowa (JR, 6'5", 320 pounds) or Andrew Thomas, OT, Georgia (JR, 6'5", 315 pounds)
if they aren't then I would be looking to trade-down.
I like Ezra Cleveland, Boise State (rJR, 6'6", 311 pounds) but have heard that the top rated outside-zone OLT I believe is Austin Jackson, USC (JR, 6'5", 322 pounds) who would be available later in the first (mid 20s) and Cleveland 'might' be available in the 2nd (he has been mentioned as a 'possible' 1st rounder but consistently mocked in the 2nd round).
If we traded down we 'could' pick up either Cleveland or Jackson and extra picks plus sign FA OLT Jason Peters at a one-year deal since Cleveland 'probably' needs a year to get-up to NFL strength and Jackson has some weakness' that could be worked on.
COVID19 could have a guy like Prince Tega Wanogho, Auburn (SR, 6'5", 308 pounds) drop since he has a medical issue that teams would need to check out before they would take him high. He was being projected as a 'possible' 2nd rounder but he will 'very-likely' drop so we could double-dip at the OT position by taking a youngster and then taking Prince later in the draft.
We have one of the best O-Line coaches in the game, it is an asset that we 'should' leverage by picking up guys who need 'some' development but with real talent.
Take Thomas or Wirfs if there or trade-down is where I'm at.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Becton may not be a fit for what we want to do anyway, but I would be very surprised if he isn't picked top 10. I'm not up to speed on Wills fit or lack thereof in zone, but if that's the case then I think it's right to prepare for a scenario in which those 3 OT's are picked before we are OTC...but I don't think it is all that likely. In that case in which they aren't available I would not want to go backwards too far, assuming the plan B's are Jackson and Ezra (Josh Jones not in play?).
I get where they're expected to go, but all it takes is one to foil that plan. My mind immediately goes to what Philly did last year to lock up Andre Dillard. It was painfully obvious the Texans were picking an OT, so Philly was sure to get in front of them. We are to 2020 what Houston was to 2019. A team behind us wanting an OT knows they need to get in front of us. This is true at #10 and would also be true if we move backwards.
I get where they're expected to go, but all it takes is one to foil that plan. My mind immediately goes to what Philly did last year to lock up Andre Dillard. It was painfully obvious the Texans were picking an OT, so Philly was sure to get in front of them. We are to 2020 what Houston was to 2019. A team behind us wanting an OT knows they need to get in front of us. This is true at #10 and would also be true if we move backwards.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Becton can move but at 350 how many time before something gives out on his body or stamina? Great fit for a power scheme not so much for outside zone.
Wills is talented but he may be a better fit at RT.
Dilliard was getting rave reviews in camp but he couldn't beat out Peters which surprised me so they used Peters to get Dilliard enough PT to work on things and ramp him up for this year.
Last year their weren't four top OTs. Its a given our FO does not have the top-four OTs ranked the same and very-likely they don't all have top-ten rankings. We aren't going WR or CB (Last two years we've taken corners with top-two picks) and won't go QB. Other teams will value one of those positions or even one of the OTs our FO doesn't like as a fit/ranked as high.
I'm not concerned about being left out in a game of musical chairs at the OT position. I am getting less optimistic about getting one of the guys who would be a hand-glove fit at #10. Josh Norris and Tony Pauline put out their top-fifty rankings of this year's draft class and both Thomas and Wirfs are ranked in the top-ten.
-------------------------------------------------------
Josh Norris@JoshNorris
Less than month until the 2020 NFL Draft Here's my view of the Top 50 prospects in the class: https://rotoworld.com/article/nfl-draft-preview/norris-nfl-draft-rankings-top-50-0… Planting my flag on... OT Andrew Thomas WR Denzel Mims EDGE Yetur Gross-Matos WR Chase Claypool WR/RB Antonio Gibson
NFL DRAFT PREVIEW NORRIS: NFL DRAFT RANKINGS - TOP 50
2020 NFL Draft Prospects: Tony Pauline’s Rankings and Scouting Reports
Go to the links for rest.
If the top guys are taken then teams will have filled needs, their is depth guys will drop so on that level it makes sense to trade-down.
Callahan is another big reason for taking a guy who needs more time in the oven and a guy like Peters is never available and we re-upped RT Chris Hubbard after he took a significant pay cut so we have depth at RT and Conklin 'can' play LT if needed which provides a cushion of time of getting a rookie up to speed.
I think at least one of the guys who fit outside zone will drop due to cream at the top and depth and the talent that will fall into the second round which is another good reason for trading down. Getting an extra 2nd this year is like getting a mid-1st in a typical year.
I'd love to land a sure-thing OLT at #10 but I'm thinking more-and-more like it ain't happening so trading-down makes a lot of sense even if it comes with risk.
daveR
Footballguy
Just want to say that I heard Joe Thomas say on the radio that he rates Becton as the best and is impressed with his mobility. He think he fits the scheme. FWIW.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Double checked and Becton is not listed at 350 lbs, he's listed at 364 lbs.
I'm not doubting the talent but that's a lot of ... 'stuff' to be moving 70 to 80 times a game. On talent alone he's not listed with Wirfs or Thomas.
I'd want a slam-dunk sure-thing at #10 if we stay.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Couple things related to the current OL:
We signed Conklin to play RT. Him possibly moving to LT in even a worse case scenario is a non-starter for me. When you have one hole you don't intentionally create another to try and fix it - then you open the possibility of creating two holes.
Also, Hubbard isn't a contingency plan at RT. He's a swing OL that can play anywhere in the case of injury. He won't play well, but better than a guy off the street? Probably/maybe/hopefully. Hopefully the losers of the Teller/Lamm/Forbes competition are ahead of him on the depth chart at some positions, but that's an issue for a later date.
Re #10:
I understand it's possible Wirfs and Thomas may not be available at #10. It'd be smart to prepare for the possibility. The path to all 4 OT's being unavailable is extremely narrow though. Burrow, and Young will be picked. Okudah, Tua, and Simmons almost certainly will. So in order for all 4 OT's to be picked in front of us literally nobody else (Brown, Lamb, Jeudy, Kinlaw, Epensa, Chaisson, Queen, Love, Herbert) can be picked. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very unlikely. The draft never goes like we expect it to nor think it should and players fall that we aren't prepared for.
I also understand Becton and Wills may not be an ideal fit for what we want to do. Elite OT prospects are elite OT prospects though. You adapt. So unless they aren't really elite prospects or there are medical red flags I'm not aware of then they're on the table at 10. You can still double dip on an Austin Jackson or an Ezra later, but any move backwards to specifically target them must not be a large one. Unless of course the unlikely scenario plays out in which all 4 OT's are picked in the top 9.
We signed Conklin to play RT. Him possibly moving to LT in even a worse case scenario is a non-starter for me. When you have one hole you don't intentionally create another to try and fix it - then you open the possibility of creating two holes.
Also, Hubbard isn't a contingency plan at RT. He's a swing OL that can play anywhere in the case of injury. He won't play well, but better than a guy off the street? Probably/maybe/hopefully. Hopefully the losers of the Teller/Lamm/Forbes competition are ahead of him on the depth chart at some positions, but that's an issue for a later date.
Re #10:
I understand it's possible Wirfs and Thomas may not be available at #10. It'd be smart to prepare for the possibility. The path to all 4 OT's being unavailable is extremely narrow though. Burrow, and Young will be picked. Okudah, Tua, and Simmons almost certainly will. So in order for all 4 OT's to be picked in front of us literally nobody else (Brown, Lamb, Jeudy, Kinlaw, Epensa, Chaisson, Queen, Love, Herbert) can be picked. Is it possible? Sure, but it's very unlikely. The draft never goes like we expect it to nor think it should and players fall that we aren't prepared for.
I also understand Becton and Wills may not be an ideal fit for what we want to do. Elite OT prospects are elite OT prospects though. You adapt. So unless they aren't really elite prospects or there are medical red flags I'm not aware of then they're on the table at 10. You can still double dip on an Austin Jackson or an Ezra later, but any move backwards to specifically target them must not be a large one. Unless of course the unlikely scenario plays out in which all 4 OT's are picked in the top 9.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Disagree on Hubbard sliding in to guard. Its been panned by a few people in the know, he's not a guard and doubtful he'd fit at center. Swing tackle and best fit is RT. He took the pay cut and we should give him every opportunity to make the team IMHO.
It makes sense our FO doesn't have all-four ranked in the top-ten due to talent/fit for scheme so why reach or project especially if their are blue-chip players that other teams covet or an OT that fits a different scheme where trading-down makes more sense?
Yes but blue-chip prospects rank higher than guys who don't fit scheme who aren't blue-chip thus they'd be coveted by other teams who would pay a 'fair' price to deal.
Ezra and Austin would be drafted to start, either now or later date after seasoning. Doubling-down would be a Prince in the 3rd/4th round after taking an OT higher. Cheap investment/depth.
The crux is value of 10th pick IN THIS DRAFT. This draft will have blue-chip players at #10. Why reach on a RT/projection/poor fit for scheme just to fill need/bypass blue-chip player?
Trade-down isn't a knee-jerk reaction Belichick war-room-rant TE unavailable panic move. I've already heard whispers Atlanta looking to move-up.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
sounds like we're setting up to take a LT...
unless we are just wanting to waste Baker's career, and thus our former #1 pick
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I don't think we're going to save Baker's career just by taking A TACKLE.
If we get a blue-chip tackle then I'm all-in but not wasting a top-ten pick on A TACKLE.
Look at the moves we've made, Callahan to develop talent 'not quite ready', Conklin to man RT, Hubbard re-upping, plus 'potential' FA/trade fall-back w/drafting rookie opens up #10.
Lack of movement at 'the other position(s)' in FA and in this draft class no-one else like him that also fills dire positional need but he can line up in two positions.
His words from the Combine...https://247sports.com/college/lsu/Article/NFL-Combine-2020-KLavon-Chaisson-most-valuable-player-in-NFL-Draft-LSU-Tigers-football-144331702/
10 players NFL teams will fall in love with at the NFL Combine
He's more athletic and a better pass rusher than the last 20 year old LBer taken in the first round and Tremaine Edmunds has done 'purty' good but he doesn't have Myles Garrett so think of the synergy.
Last edited by a moderator:
MAC_32
Footballguy
You bolded a lot of words in my post, but here's a few you missed: 'So unless they aren't really elite prospects or there are medical red flags I'm not aware of then they're on the table at 10.' Nothing I have read indicates they are anything less than elite prospects. The very blue chippers you're referring to. If they're not then they should be treated accordingly.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
PFF grades listed in this video of top OTs from this draft class.
2020 NFL Draft: The top offensive tackles the Browns could pick at No. 10
Prospects with 90+ are considered elite.
They list the same two as Pete Smith and myself. They don't list all four equally as elite prospects.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
PFF put out a few mocks.
Look where they have the OTs going off the board.
Out this morning their Analytics Mock Draft 2:0
The PFF Analytics Mock Draft 2.0
OT Mekhi Becton, Louisville was not taken in the first round of the ANALYTICS draft by PFF.
MAC_32
Footballguy
What's their grade on Josh Jones? what about other players that would be in play for the Browns at #10?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Look at the video and the mock I linked and then look at the PFF mock they put up six days ago where they had Becton taken off the board at #4 and today they didn't take him in the Analytics 2:0 mock and in the mock from six days ago they didn't have Josh Jones taken in the first round but this morning they have him going off the board #10.
The two players Pete Smith listed have consistently been mocked in the top-ten and as the two best OT prospects. That is why I began this who thing by saying that the rankings of the top OTs are all over the place and that I was focused on two OTs. I had no idea PFF had them as consistently graded and mocked in the top-ten and obviously I had no idea they would drop Becton and Wills in today's Analytics 2:0 mock this morning. I just knew who I had rated high.
FWIW no mock I've seen has Josh Jones mocked this high. This is not a mock based on what teams will do but its an Analytics draft based off of college-to-pro projections, positional value, team needs is only used as a tie breaker.
Here is another draft put out by Steve Palazzolo (one of PFF top guys) and he's got both Wirfs and Thomas gone and has us taking Josh Jones so he's high on him but he's not predicting that is who we will take. It is based on what he would do if he were making the pick.
Steve Palazzolo's 2020 NFL Mock Draft: Giants land Chase Young, Dolphins trade up for Tua Tagovailoa
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'm assisting with home schooling 3 kids - video ain't happenin'. My draft prep this year is probably text only. So, any links you (or anyone else) have with text info on the grades of comparable prospects would be appreciated. Otherwise I'm in the dark in my web of if-then statements.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
He's got PFF's 2nd best grade but then question why they didn't mock him in the first round six days ago and you could reasonably speculate he hails from the American Athletic Conference whereas the other top rated OTs they mocked high were big school prospects who faced better prospects.
No one has mocked Josh Jones in the top-ten and even in Palazzolo's mock based on what he'd do he says it is a panic need based pick rather than best fit and he lists both Wirfs and Thomas as the picks if they were available.
They grade based on tape, pressures allowed/run blocks made, etc but we don't know how they weigh competition. They admit that they have no idea on other pieces of the analytics metrics such as interviews and medical checks.
I'm with you in going for elite prospects and we both know the University of Houston is not Iowa or Alabama in terms of competition.
Josh Jones might be pummeling guys who won't get invited to training camp or make an NFL practice squads/rosters or come close to being NFL caliber starting talent. Wirfs/Thomas faced talent in practice each day that Jones may have faced once a season if that.
Its reasonable that even though they graded his performance well that they didn't mock him in the first due to AAC competition.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Browns have signed former first round DE Adrian Clayborn to a 2 year deal
Dez
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/Jake_Trotter/status/1245314969563848705?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweetThe Man With No Name said:
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I had totally forgotten about his condition so it looks like he's depth on Myles side of the D-Line.The Man With No Name said:
-----------------------------------------------
Brent Sobleski@brentsobleski
Interesting note about Adrian Clayborn I remembered from when he was a draft prospect: He suffers from Erb's palsy--which limits his versatility. He plays almost exclusively on the right side.
Adrian Clayborn’s Erb’s Palsy Limits Versatility But Not Productivity
Adrian Clayborn's football journey has been a remarkable one. Born with a nerve condition known as Erb's palsy, Clayborn starred…
nesn.com
Adrian Clayborn’s Erb’s Palsy Limits Versatility But Not Productivity  Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/03/adrian-clayborns-erbs-palsy-limits-versatility-but-not-productivity/
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Interesting.
--------------------------------------
Jeremy Fowler@JFowlerESPN
From@SportsCenter
earlier: Cleveland Browns have shown interest in Jadeveon Clowney, and some people around league believe Cleveland got closer with Clowney than other suitors, though nothing ultimately happened from recent talks. Seattle's offer hasn't been what Clowney wants.
---------------------------------------
Especially since recently signed DE Adrian Clayborn plays exclusively from the right side/Myles.
--------------------------------------
Jeremy Fowler@JFowlerESPN
From@SportsCenter
earlier: Cleveland Browns have shown interest in Jadeveon Clowney, and some people around league believe Cleveland got closer with Clowney than other suitors, though nothing ultimately happened from recent talks. Seattle's offer hasn't been what Clowney wants.
---------------------------------------
Especially since recently signed DE Adrian Clayborn plays exclusively from the right side/Myles.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Odd that Pete Smith just put out a Browns mock with a trade-down with Denver.
I actually don't like this mock but I found it interesting since Dave speculated about a trade-down with Denver.
Not trilled with the selections and hate the trade-down compensation. I don't trade the opportunity to take a blue-chip prospect without getting at least a 2nd round pick this year so I really dislike Pete's projected trade-down for that reason alone but their are other reasons.
You don't trade away the opportunity to take a blue-chip player unless you are certain the player you get is a blue-chipper or at minimum a very-sure bet to be a quality starter AND you receive solid compensation for taking the risk of losing a blue-chip player.
I feel that with Covid19 that the value of blue-chip players increase because teams want sure-things, they want to diminish risk in unsure times.
This draft has blue-chip players available at pick 10 so our pick would be worth more than what Pete projects and I really don't like the players he takes in this mock.
2020 7-Round Mock Draft Vol, 6
Go to the link for the mock.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
we'll stay put....
mocks are always dead wrong. odds of 4 OT being gone are slim. it could happen, absolutely... heck, there could be 6 gone, who knows.
but mocks are lucky to hit 50%, and I hope and assume we stay put and put the final fix in that o-line for baker and chubb.
mocks are always dead wrong. odds of 4 OT being gone are slim. it could happen, absolutely... heck, there could be 6 gone, who knows.
but mocks are lucky to hit 50%, and I hope and assume we stay put and put the final fix in that o-line for baker and chubb.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Trading down makes sense if you don't have the top tier of OT's graded like the consensus...if the ones you do have graded that highly don't fall...if you like a particular couple of OT's in the next tier substantially more than others...if you don't have others at premium positions graded as elite...if you get the appropriate compensation to move backwards...
If-then, if-then, if-then though. I get it - it's a conversation piece when there isn't much else to talk about. And maybe it's just me, but without putting actual names to it with a why I don't think it says much of anything. But that is why I appreciate what Pete Smith provided.
It'd have been nice if he filled in the gaps around the Browns picks, but I get why he didn't. I think the move backwards to #15 implies that a) Wirfs and Thomas didn't fall b) decision makers have Jones graded similarly to them c) their intel indicated no one else would be looking at him inside the top 20 d) they didn't want to move back too far at the risk of not getting their guy e) no one in that range was willing to offer a package involving a #2 and f) the Browns FO do not believe there is anyone else available at #10 that is substantially better than Jones.
But...if-then, if-then, if-then.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You know my stance, I have Thomas and Wirfs as targets and if they aren't their I'd trade-down and that is how Pete Smith sees it.
FWIW I don't think either will be available and I put out how I think the top-ten will land. From a different thread on how the top-ten will go:
If this is goes like an average draft we'll see trades in the first and I'm thinking at least one (possibly two) in the top-ten.
- CIN – Joe Burrow, QB – We know who the pick is
- WAS – Chase Young, DE – No NFL GM is trading the opportunity to take Chase Young
- DET – Jeff Okudah, CB - I'd love to have a trade here but I ask if I am an NFL GM do I trade-up for an injury riddled QB? No.
- NYG – Andrew Thomas, OT – Gettleman used top FA dollars on an over rated OLT. Dire need, top talent falls into his lap, no need to overthink this one.
- MIA – Tua Tagovailoa, QB – Won't trade-up but if he falls into their lap? Yeah.
- LAC – Justin Hebert, QB – Worst kept secret of the top-ten.
- CAR – Isiah Simmons, LB – Brown makes a ton of sense but Simmons is a hand-glove fit for team that lost Luke Kuechly.
- ARI – Tristan Wirfs, OT – Arizona gave up 50 sacks last year. Could go Wills since Kyler is left handed so RT is his blind side.
- JAX – No one believes Minshew is the answer but would they take Love here? I doubt it. First trade could take place here.
- CLE – If Arizona takes Mills and if Wirfs or Thomas drops then they go here but if not then Cleveland is a good spot to speculate trade-down.
--- I think Arizona will/should seriously consider Wills with their top pick which would allow Wirfs to fall to us unless some team moves-up with JAX but then I think teams would be seeking to move-up for Brown/one of the top-three WRs/2nd-best CB/EDGE/possibly QB? In Pete's scenario he's got Denver moving up with us for a WR so he believes both Thomas and Wirfs would be gone if we deal-down.
I diverge from Pete Smith in a couple of ways, I would not trade-down and only get a 3rd round picks this and next year, I would not be targeting Josh Jones with the 15th pick. Here is how I think it would go from pick #9 to #15.
- 9) JAX - Either keep/trade pick Derrick Brown, DT Auburn 6' 5" 316
- 10) DEN via CLE - Jerry Jeudy, WR 6'1 192lbs Alabama
- 11) NYJ - Jedrick Wills, OT 6'5 320 Alabama
- 12) LVR - Ceedee Lamb, WR 6'2 189lbs Oklahoma
- 13) SF - Javon Kinlaw, DT 6'6 302lbs SC
- 14) TB - Mekhi Beckton, OT 6'7 350lbs Louisville
- 15) CLE via DEN - K'Lavon Chaisson, OLB/EDGE 6'4 250lbs LSU
Why would we not want Wills? He is a RT, we signed Conklin and re-upped Hubbard so we're not in the RT market and its a projection to move him to LT.
If their weren't blue-chip players still on the board then take him but with blue-chip players who aren't projects you trade down if you get reasonable compensation. I don't think Pete Smith is being fair to the Browns by only getting a 3rd round pick (Denver has three third-round picks so maybe he thinks its more digestible for them )
Why K'Lavon Chaisson? I think with all of the blue-chippers at the top of this draft he is a bargain where he is slated and 'should' go off the board. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he goes in the top-ten. I think he is a blue-chip prospect with huge upside.
What would we receive from Denver if we traded down? Their 2nd round pick #46.
What could we 'reasonably' get with that pick?
If we went K'Lavon Chaisson in the first then we would still need to fill OT and S positions and I strongly believe Austin Jackson 'could' be available and that we'd have our pick of Ezra Cleveland or Prince Tega Wanogho or Lloyd Cushenberry. One will be available with the #41 or #46 picks and I think at least one will fall to our #74 pick in the 3rd round so I would double-dip at the OT position. With the 'other' second-round pick I would address S. Delpit 'might' be available at #41 or #46 or Antoine Winfield Jr.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
i like mocks and all that... esp now with nothing else to go on about
but we know nothing about who the Browns have ranked where... I have thomas at 1, but they could have some consensus guy ranked #6 as their #1 OT... we just dont know.
I assume we stay put. we put up good money at RT, and got that locked down. If we don't bring in someone for LT before the draft, then for me, we stay put and take one.
but we know nothing about who the Browns have ranked where... I have thomas at 1, but they could have some consensus guy ranked #6 as their #1 OT... we just dont know.
I assume we stay put. we put up good money at RT, and got that locked down. If we don't bring in someone for LT before the draft, then for me, we stay put and take one.
MAC_32
Footballguy
^^^Yep!!!
I don't have strong opinions about the linemen, on either side of the ball. I wasn't engaged enough last season and have done substantially less research this offseason than I usually do on non fantasy relevant positions. I mean, I'm aware of players like Brown, Chaisson, Thomas, and Wills. I've watched them play. I'm similarly aware of Kinlaw, Wirfs, Becton, Ezra, A Jackson, and Jones although I have not watched them play (more than once). Overall I have not developed an informed opinion on whether they're 1st round caliber - or elite. And there's a very meaningful difference.
I have developed opinions at the skill positions, but like those linemen that doesn't mean the Browns brass agrees. You could talk me into Lamb being a blue chipper, but Ruggs and Jeudy? Not so much. It isn't that I dislike them. I just don't think there's much of a line between them and the next group, which is also why I would need talked into Lamb. And that also needs to be considered at those line positions. Is there a similar (lack of a) line between the top tier and early day two?
But I think the answer to that question dictates the Browns priorities draft weekend.Because the reason why I have a difficult time envisioning OT not being first is because it is currently the one position on the depth cart that is both a priority position and one void of a starter. Sure, we have holes at LB and S (among other positions), but they aren't priorities (relative to OT/EDGE). If we were to sign someone like Peters then I see the angle for a round one pick like Chaisson. Because then we would have the LT locked in and could pursue a day 2 developmental type then let Callahan work his magic. Chaisson would instantly fit in the rotation with plans on being a starter in 2021 when Vernon walks. But I think Chaisson needs to be near Chase Young caliber to justify getting cute with OT round 1. As is, anyway. Because right now we have starters on the edge; we don't at LT. And I don't think it's anymore complicated than that.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Linking the chart of the PPF pass blocking grades of the top-five OTs.^^^Yep!!!
I don't have strong opinions about the linemen, on either side of the ball. I wasn't engaged enough last season and have done substantially less research this offseason than I usually do on non fantasy relevant positions. I mean, I'm aware of players like Brown, Chaisson, Thomas, and Wills. I've watched them play. I'm similarly aware of Kinlaw, Wirfs, Becton, Ezra, A Jackson, and Jones although I have not watched them play (more than once). Overall I have not developed an informed opinion on whether they're 1st round caliber - or elite. And there's a very meaningful difference.
I have developed opinions at the skill positions, but like those linemen that doesn't mean the Browns brass agrees. You could talk me into Lamb being a blue chipper, but Ruggs and Jeudy? Not so much. It isn't that I dislike them. I just don't think there's much of a line between them and the next group, which is also why I would need talked into Lamb. And that also needs to be considered at those line positions. Is there a similar (lack of a) line between the top tier and early day two?
Because the reason why I have a difficult time envisioning OT not being first is because it is currently the one position on the depth cart that is both a priority position and one void of a starter. Sure, we have holes at LB and S (among other positions), but they aren't priorities (relative to OT/EDGE). If we were to sign someone like Peters then I see the angle for a round one pick like Chaisson. Because then we would have the LT locked in and could pursue a day 2 developmental type then let Callahan work his magic. Chaisson would instantly fit in the rotation with plans on being a starter in 2021 when Vernon walks. But I think Chaisson needs to be near Chase Young caliber to justify getting cute with OT round 1. As is, anyway. Because right now we have starters on the edge; we don't at LT. And I don't think it's anymore complicated than that.
Josh Jones coming out of Houston did not face equal competition so his pass and run blocking grades can't directly be compared to Thomas or Wirfs or Mills.
Mills is a RT who pass blocking grade is below Thomas/Wirfs we signed Conklin and re-signing Hubbard. Why take a rookie RT move him to the left side and cross our fingers that he can make the switch and improve his pass blocking? I like Mills as a near blue-chip RT but not as a 'projected' LT to take in the top-ten.
What about Mekhi? Look at these pass blocking grades. Becton is not considered a blue-chip prospect.
PFF Pass Blocking Grades
I don't see all-five OTs as being equal because they are not equal.
Offensive LEFT TACKLE is a priority need. As is LB and FS. The fact our FO was/is looking into Clowney shows their interest in a pass rusher opposite Myles so a LB who can rush the passer like Chaisson and cover and plays the run well and ... I think he fills a few defensive NEEDS on the team.
Here are Mike Clay's unit grades by team to compare with every team in the league. You can clearly see our LB and S units are the weakest on the team. O-Line is listed as a unit grade so Bitonio/Tretter/Conklin are pretty good so that 'unit grade' is much higher than LB or S.
--------------------------------------
Mike Clay@MikeClayNFL
As always, here are the supplemental league-wide NFL unit grades:
>>
>> LINK to chart showing all 32 NFL teams unit grades----------------------------------------
You can clearly see LB is our weakest grade because we lost Joe Schobert and Kirksee and have two second-year guys who didn't show much and signed eh FAs.
Linebacker is the weakest part of the team. Chaisson is a blue-chip prospect that makes a lot of sense 'especially' if we can trade-down and pick up a pick where we can fill the safety and OLT positions.
And Dave is right, we'd have to sign a FA OLT like Jason Peters who would be a perfect fit as a bridge to give us a year or two after taking two rookies this year and letting them compete under Callahan.
I like that idea better than reaching for Josh Jones at #10.
Last edited by a moderator:
MAC_32
Footballguy
Couple things:Linking the chart of the PPF pass blocking grades of the top-five OTs.
Josh Jones coming out of Houston did not face equal competition so his pass and run blocking grades can't directly be compared to Thomas or Wirfs or Mills.
Mills is a RT who pass blocking grade is below Thomas/Wirfs we signed Conklin and re-signing Hubbard. Why take a rookie RT move him to the left side and cross our fingers that he can make the switch and improve his pass blocking? I like Mills as a near blue-chip RT but not as a 'projected' LT to take in the top-ten.
What about Mekhi? Look at these pass blocking grades. Becton is not considered a blue-chip prospect.
PFF Pass Blocking Grades
I don't see all-five OTs as being equal because they are not equal.
Offensive LEFT TACKLE is a priority need. As is LB and FS. The fact our FO was/is looking into Clowney shows their interest in a pass rusher opposite Myles so a LB who can rush the passer like Chaisson and cover and plays the run well and ... I think he fills a few defensive NEEDS on the team.
Here are Mike Clay's unit grades by team to compare with every team in the league. You can clearly see our LB and S units are the weakest on the team. O-Line is listed as a unit grade so Bitonio/Tretter/Conklin are pretty good so that 'unit grade' is much higher than LB or S.
--------------------------------------
Mike Clay@MikeClayNFL
As always, here are the supplemental league-wide NFL unit grades:
>>
----------------------------------------
You can clearly see LB is our weakest grade because we lost Joe Schobert and Kirksee and have two second-year guys who didn't show much and signed eh FAs.
Linebacker is the weakest part of the team. Chaisson is a blue-chip prospect that makes a lot of sense 'especially' if we can trade-down and pick up a pick where we can fill the safety and OLT positions.
And Dave is right, we'd have to sign a FA OLT like Jason Peters who would be a perfect fit as a bridge to give us a year or two after taking two rookies this year and letting them compete under Callahan.
I like that idea better than reaching for Josh Jones at #10.
LB and S are needs. I don't think they're priorities though. Depo's framework was leaked years ago and it didn't list either position as foundation pieces. And wrt LB especially not devoting resources to that position is right out of the analytics playbook. Treat them like RB's on the other side of the ball - find young ones in the middle of the draft, use them up, tee up replacements as their rookie contract comes to a close, then let your guys walk in free agency. So I think it's important to separate needs vs priorities.
That said, I'm not referring to Chaisson as a LB. He isn't anything like Schobert or Kirksey. He's an EDGE type that also offers skills. And it's wise of the front office to look at the position opposite Garrett. It's a priority position on defense. The last group did a piss poor job identifying developmental types and jettisoning off the ones we had. So we have a very expensive Vernon for one more year and then...nothing. If we don't ink Clowney and sign someone like Peters then I think the picture for Chaisson becomes clearer. If-then though. I think any path to a 1st round pick that is not an OT first depends on at least one if-then developing. It hasn't yet.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Clay's unit grades are an excellent snapshot for evaluating NFL units. Our LBers are the single weakest unit on the team. Having said that I agree K'Lavon Chaisson is an EDGE that also has LBer skills +++ coverage skills to man-up on the TE which would be highly valuable in the AFCN where Baltimore has some of the best TEs in the league and where Pittsburgh added a top TE.
You mention Clowney and I mentioned Clowney, our FO has looked into Clowney who brings EDGE pass rush skills... Interesting ah scouting report on Chaisson's comp.
TAPE DON'T LIE: LSU'S K'LAVON CHAISSON ECHOES FORMER TOP PICK
Chaisson brings EDGE pressure and more, from the same link above...
I have to imagine the only reason he's not rated higher is due to low production in college when he was injured. He rang-up 4.5 sacks in his final
Analytics weigh college production high on pass rushers, see Carl Nassib and Nate Orchard. Ogbah was a physical freak as was Myles who was/is a freak and highly productive. Chaisson is better than Ogbah in that he offers more versatility and laps Nassib and Orchid on measureables/athleticism.
Offers pass rushing EDGE skills mentioned in comparisons with Clowney but unlike Clowney he can be used in coverage and he plays the run.
I didn't start out liking him. I stumbled upon him and noted how our FO has done zilch to address LBer and perked up when I saw our interest in Clowney.
I think if the top-two OTs are off the board (very-likely IMHO) and we an trade-down, pick up an extra 2nd to address OT/S AND get a triple threat on defense to address multiple needs. Why not?
Last edited by a moderator:
daveR
Footballguy
I'm curious who the group thinks is "elite". IMO, only Young, but Burrow certainly had an all-time-great year, so maybe him, too. Tua, maybe. Simmons, Okudah, Brown -- could be, as well as Lamb & Jeudy. The few highlights I've seen of the OTs don't impress me as being on the same level as the others I've named. No doubt we need one and taking the highest ranked (if we had our choice) is likely to turn out fine, but would you guys put any at the Joe Thomas level?
