Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Your bias is opposite of mine so I had to hit you for something.. LOL
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Cutler to Bears (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Zigg
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chook
Footballguy
This thread is a perfect exponent of the "Follows closely" icons. Some great opinion from all corners, and great to be able to see that it's not all just bitter Broncos fans or over-excited Bears fans.
Man I wish as a Niner fan I had a few more dancing pickles in this thread today. Cutler could have taken the team back to where we belong.
Man I wish as a Niner fan I had a few more dancing pickles in this thread today. Cutler could have taken the team back to where we belong.
Sweetness_34
Footballguy
One of the reasons I am sure Denver did not want to make this deal with Det is because that 1st pick in the draft has a huge impact to the salary cap.
Both you guys get 100% back to football please. TIA.J
whole-show
Footballguy
already in(post 126)... 
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Ok, the deed is done... Now, how does Denver spend their first day picks. I'm not so sure they are in the market for a high end QB. McDaniels never worked with that type of material in New England. I bet he's thinking QB in day 2 or next years draft.
I'm thinking they go defense/running back
I'm thinking they go defense/running back
chook
Footballguy
Australian markets for the NFC Championship haven't adjusted yet, with the Bears still at $15 (I think that's +1400 in US speak). $29 for the Superbowl (+2800) Might chuck a few $$ on the NFC title methinks, could be value. Still, I don't think this trade makes as much difference to the Bears as it would have done the Bucs. They could have been scary good with Jay at the helm.What odds are you guys getting over there on the Bears now? Or is the market on hold for the moment?Sweetness_34 said:
ffldrew
Footballguy
They go all Defense, nothing but Defense - they need a whole new front 7. Maybe DJ Williams is a keeper. Maualuga is what they need in the middle to replace the missing Al Wilson, then it is all up front from there. Big guys in the middle and pass rushers.
Orton's average game after the ankle injury:
17.3/31.5 (55%) for 171 yards, 1.14 TD, 1.14 Int's. Despite averaging 31 passes a game, he had 3 multi interception games out of the last 7. He actually threw 8 interceptions over an 4 game stretch where he only threw 85 passes in all of them combined.
He has 1 300 yard passing games in his 33 starts. He actually only has 8 games where he exceeded 200.
I understand that the ankle limited him a little bit when he came back, but those stats are truly pathetic and not indicative of a starting QB. He had a nice 4-5 game stretch before that injury, but Rex Grossman looked good for a half a year too. He was an MVP candidate halfway through that 06 season. Sure, if he pans out to be some terrific QB this could backfire. How can anyone seriously say that it looks like that a great possibility though?
Look at what happened to Berrian because of his deep ball. Berrian had 68 yards and a TD in 3 games with Orton last year. He was averaging 68 yards a game pre Orton.
17.3/31.5 (55%) for 171 yards, 1.14 TD, 1.14 Int's. Despite averaging 31 passes a game, he had 3 multi interception games out of the last 7. He actually threw 8 interceptions over an 4 game stretch where he only threw 85 passes in all of them combined.
He has 1 300 yard passing games in his 33 starts. He actually only has 8 games where he exceeded 200.
I understand that the ankle limited him a little bit when he came back, but those stats are truly pathetic and not indicative of a starting QB. He had a nice 4-5 game stretch before that injury, but Rex Grossman looked good for a half a year too. He was an MVP candidate halfway through that 06 season. Sure, if he pans out to be some terrific QB this could backfire. How can anyone seriously say that it looks like that a great possibility though?
Look at what happened to Berrian because of his deep ball. Berrian had 68 yards and a TD in 3 games with Orton last year. He was averaging 68 yards a game pre Orton.
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MasterofOrion
Footballguy
Denver - are you stupid. How many first round QB picks turn out to be busts: most of them IMO. Even the top pick in the draft many times turn out to be busts. Cuttler is a very good QB and he can be a great QB. Great QB's are extremely rare.
Now Denver doesn't have a defense, a running game (if they can keep anyone healthy) or a passing game. They traded the only thing they had going it their favor. Fire the coach and rehire Shanahan (sp). This was a stupid trade.
Now Denver doesn't have a defense, a running game (if they can keep anyone healthy) or a passing game. They traded the only thing they had going it their favor. Fire the coach and rehire Shanahan (sp). This was a stupid trade.
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Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Sup
pollardsvision
Footballguy
For Denver, it must be pretty exciting to know that, if they want, they could n have 4 new defenders on their defense with 1st-round talent by the beginning of the 2010 season. That's a very good way to start rebuilding a franchise.
This works in the FFA. Not as much here. Thanks.J
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Is it the consensus now to anoint Cutler a "franchise" QB? He's had a decent start to his career, but I think he'll find the going a bit tougher in Chicago than he did running Shanny's offense with far superior WR's, a better running game and a better OL.I'm a Bear-hater to be sure, but I think this smacks of a bit of a desperation move by Lovie and Angelo - both of whom are on the hot seat this season.pantherclub said:
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Just wondering what kind of a take Zaxxon has on the situation. He's a big Bronco fan with a wealth of football knowledge. In the past he has provided some excellent insight into the Denver front office and its workings.Desperation move? The Bears QB's since Lovie came to town:Rex GrossmanJonathan QuinnChad HutchinsonCraig KrenzelKyle OrtonBrian GrieseWe can make the list look more pathetic if you want to go back further than Lovie. Yeah, trading for a potential franchise QB that has showed terrific ability and immense upside on the NFL level is a desperation move.
Banger
Footballguy
it's not desperation, how often do young QB's of his caliber come along where they are available? Answer - never. They have a team that's been on the cusp with their defense for a few years and weren't going to be much if any better this year. Their window is closing a bit and you have to strike while you can. I think they gave up a good bit but it will be VERY worth it. I can understand why you wouldn't like this as a GB fan, it's much easier facing Orton/Grossman twice a year than it will be to face Cutler.
Andy Herron
Footballguy
Hear, hear!Jason Wood said:Really impressive. And as an NFC East fan, I'm THRILLED Dan Snyder didn't get his mitts on him. Plus, now Danny Boy has his own young QB who is going to gripe about not being wanted.
fsufan
Footballguy
i agree. at least with Cutler they had something to build around. if I was a Denver fan it would be very hard to continue to pull for them. it could be another 10 years before they find a franchise QB.
Class Dismissed
Footballguy
The reason The Bears traded for a QB is because they felt they didn't have one. I don't get the love for Orton.
Denver now does not have a QB, if they want one in the draft, they will have to spend a lot of what they just got. The only QB in the draft that fits their system is Sanchez, they need to hope Detroit doesn't take him, and more than likely trade up to the top 5, and they still haven't addressed their defense.
They're just addressing the one area of the team that was set, it's like they're spinning their wheels, in reverse.
If I'm Seattle I'm showing heavy interest in sanchez whether they really want him or not.
Denver now does not have a QB, if they want one in the draft, they will have to spend a lot of what they just got. The only QB in the draft that fits their system is Sanchez, they need to hope Detroit doesn't take him, and more than likely trade up to the top 5, and they still haven't addressed their defense.
They're just addressing the one area of the team that was set, it's like they're spinning their wheels, in reverse.
If I'm Seattle I'm showing heavy interest in sanchez whether they really want him or not.
The defense may end up being the weak point of the team depending on how things play out the rest of FA and the draft. The Bears really weren't that close last season from a defensive perspective. They need some safeties to run this cover 2 immediately, and it was almost disgusting to watch them give up long 3rd down after long 3rd down all season. It makes it even more disappointing when you think about what they gave up Chris Harris for - so they could have Archuletta on the roster.
If they add some safety talent, it definitely could be back to being a very good defense again though. Especially if they could get a motivated and healthy Tommie Harris back one of these days.4 years. I don't know anything else about the contract, but I know it is for 4 years.Does anyone have Mr. McDaniels contact info??? I have some remainding furniture I'd like to send him!
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Doug Drinen
Moderator
Every QB to start for the Bears since 1950, and their per-game averages.Desperation move? The Bears QB's since Lovie came to town:Rex GrossmanJonathan QuinnChad HutchinsonCraig KrenzelKyle OrtonBrian GrieseWe can make the list look more pathetic if you want to go back further than Lovie. Yeah, trading for a potential franchise QB that has showed terrific ability and immense upside on the NFL level is a desperation move.
Code:
+------------------+------------+--------+------+------+------+------+------+| QB | years | starts | cmp | att | pyd | ptd | int |+------------------+------------+--------+------+------+------+------+------+| Ed Brown | 1955--1961 | 68 | 12 | 25 | 183 | 0.8 | 2.1 || Jim Harbaugh | 1988--1993 | 66 | 16 | 28 | 185 | 0.8 | 1.1 || Jim McMahon | 1982--1988 | 66 | 15 | 28 | 201 | 1.0 | 1.1 || Bob Avellini | 1975--1984 | 51 | 12 | 23 | 150 | 0.6 | 1.5 || Billy Wade | 1961--1965 | 50 | 16 | 30 | 213 | 1.2 | 1.4 || Erik Kramer | 1994--1998 | 46 | 20 | 35 | 235 | 1.4 | 1.1 || Bobby Douglass | 1969--1975 | 45 | 9 | 20 | 113 | 0.6 | 1.2 || Jack Concannon | 1967--1971 | 40 | 14 | 27 | 148 | 0.8 | 1.7 || Rex Grossman | 2003--2008 | 35 | 18 | 33 | 210 | 1.0 | 1.2 || Mike Tomczak | 1986--1990 | 34 | 15 | 29 | 207 | 0.9 | 1.5 || Kyle Orton | 2005--2008 | 33 | 16 | 29 | 169 | 0.9 | 0.9 || Vince Evans | 1979--1983 | 32 | 14 | 28 | 179 | 0.8 | 1.3 || Rudy Bukich | 1964--1966 | 30 | 14 | 26 | 181 | 1.2 | 1.3 || Jim Miller | 1999--2002 | 27 | 20 | 34 | 206 | 1.1 | 1.0 || Gary Huff | 1973--1975 | 22 | 14 | 28 | 144 | 0.4 | 1.5 || George Blanda | 1952--1956 | 22 | 17 | 38 | 238 | 1.5 | 2.6 || Mike Phipps | 1978--1980 | 21 | 12 | 24 | 133 | 0.6 | 1.4 || Johnny Lujack | 1950--1951 | 20 | 12 | 26 | 169 | 0.5 | 2.0 || Shane Matthews | 1999--2001 | 15 | 24 | 40 | 235 | 0.9 | 1.1 || Cade McNown | 1999--2000 | 15 | 20 | 37 | 214 | 0.8 | 1.5 || Zeke Bratkowski | 1954--1960 | 14 | 13 | 27 | 197 | 0.8 | 2.3 || Steve Walsh | 1994--1994 | 13 | 18 | 31 | 188 | 0.8 | 0.8 || Chris Chandler | 2002--2003 | 13 | 19 | 32 | 186 | 0.5 | 0.8 || Steve Fuller | 1984--1986 | 13 | 14 | 25 | 189 | 0.5 | 0.8 || Dave Krieg | 1996--1996 | 12 | 20 | 33 | 207 | 1.2 | 1.0 || Steve Romanik | 1951--1952 | 8 | 12 | 27 | 173 | 0.5 | 1.8 || Bob Williams | 1952--1952 | 7 | 12 | 27 | 171 | 0.9 | 2.0 || Virgil Carter | 1968--1969 | 7 | 14 | 28 | 163 | 0.9 | 1.6 || Steve Stenstrom | 1998--1998 | 7 | 16 | 29 | 181 | 0.6 | 0.9 || Kordell Stewart | 2003--2003 | 7 | 16 | 32 | 185 | 1.0 | 1.6 || Brian Griese | 2007--2007 | 6 | 24 | 39 | 275 | 1.5 | 1.7 || Chad Hutchinson | 2004--2004 | 5 | 18 | 32 | 181 | 0.8 | 0.8 || Craig Krenzel | 2004--2004 | 5 | 12 | 26 | 147 | 0.6 | 1.4 || Larry Rakestraw | 1967--1968 | 4 | 7 | 17 | 83 | 0.3 | 1.0 || Kent Nix | 1971--1971 | 4 | 14 | 35 | 213 | 0.8 | 2.0 || Jonathan Quinn | 2004--2004 | 3 | 17 | 31 | 132 | 0.3 | 0.7 || Rick Mirer | 1997--1997 | 3 | 18 | 33 | 154 | 0.0 | 1.3 || Peter Tom Willis | 1992--1993 | 3 | 15 | 27 | 197 | 1.0 | 2.3 || Mike Hohensee | 1987--1987 | 2 | 17 | 32 | 197 | 2.0 | 0.5 || Doug Flutie | 1986--1986 | 2 | 10 | 27 | 154 | 1.5 | 2.5 || Greg Landry | 1984--1984 | 1 | 11 | 21 | 199 | 1.0 | 3.0 || Henry Burris | 2002--2002 | 1 | 13 | 29 | 137 | 0.0 | 4.0 || Steve Bradley | 1987--1987 | 1 | 9 | 29 | 105 | 2.0 | 4.0 || Moses Moreno | 1998--1998 | 1 | 19 | 42 | 171 | 1.0 | 0.0 || Rusty Lisch | 1984--1984 | 1 | 11 | 27 | 101 | 0.0 | 2.0 || Will Furrer | 1992--1992 | 1 | 9 | 23 | 89 | 0.0 | 3.0 |+------------------+------------+--------+------+------+------+------+------+It is kind of hard to get behind them right now but, I have been a Bronco fan longer than Josh McDaniels has been alive and I will be a Bronco fan long after he leaves (hopefully soon, but I guess that's unfair since he hasn't even coached a single game yet) I hope he proves me wrong, but I think Josh has already failed.
Banger
Footballguy
After thinking about this for a bit I think it makes sense for both teams. Without Cutler Denver is a rebuilding team and they got some good ammo to rebuild with. Chicago is at the other end of the spectrum and are trying to put in the last big piece in a potential SB puzzle. The Bronco's need to make the picks work and work quick because I seriously think that they could be KC Chiefs bad this year without Cutler. McD better be a magician because he sure made his job tough.
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Cutler has only beaten one NFC North team...ScottyFargo said:
fatness
Footballguy
I agree. His first move as coach of a team with a good offense and lousy defense was to alienate their star QB to the point that he had to be traded. And I don't think you can lay this one on Bus Cook. It's hard to believe he talked Cutler into "hey, I'll get you traded to another team without any new contract offer."Joe Bryant said:
What's wrong with rebuilding around a 25 year old QB? Isn't that pretty much what you do if you are bad enough to draft one at 1.01? If the Bears were rebuilding and had a few extra #1's to do so with, like when the Jets had a hundred thanks to the Keyshawn trade, I'd have no problem with them giving up a couple mid to late 1sts for a potential franchise QB to build around.In fact, the Bears gave up the 4 pick in the draft to the Jets for some similar stuff back when they drafted Grossman and Michael Haynes. That was the year everyone wanted them to take Leftwich or Boller.
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McDaniels was able to turn an average QB ( that is what Cassel is) into a solid starter.
Orton and Simms both have more experience than Cassel and everyone expects them to fail. They will have a solid WR corps along with a decent running game and solid O-line.
Denver can now go out and fix their defense quickly.
They key thing that will determine how this turns out is how good of a QB coach and OC MCDaniels is.
If he is good then the Broncos should have a playoff team in a couple of years. If he isn't then they will probably be drafting the next Elway 3 years from now.
edit -- Cutler was an extreme ##### in all of this. He is the reason they had to trade him. Yes they bunggled things initially but it gave Cutler an excuse to get what he wanted...a trade. The fact he wouldn't even speak to his owner or coach is a complete joke given his resume.
Even Brett Farve talked with his owner and coach when the whole drama bomb went down...and he is a HOF QB who has actually won something
Orton and Simms both have more experience than Cassel and everyone expects them to fail. They will have a solid WR corps along with a decent running game and solid O-line.
Denver can now go out and fix their defense quickly.
They key thing that will determine how this turns out is how good of a QB coach and OC MCDaniels is.
If he is good then the Broncos should have a playoff team in a couple of years. If he isn't then they will probably be drafting the next Elway 3 years from now.
edit -- Cutler was an extreme ##### in all of this. He is the reason they had to trade him. Yes they bunggled things initially but it gave Cutler an excuse to get what he wanted...a trade. The fact he wouldn't even speak to his owner or coach is a complete joke given his resume.
Even Brett Farve talked with his owner and coach when the whole drama bomb went down...and he is a HOF QB who has actually won something
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Class Dismissed
Footballguy
That's a Mike Mayock assessment. McDaniels runs a specific offense, and Josh felt Cutler wasn't a fit, so he went after Cassell, Sanchez is more like Cassell than any other QB in the draft.Can you elaborate?
Is it McDaniels or Moss? Outside of his years in Oakland, every QB that threw to Randy Moss did great. Including some not very good QB's in Minnesota every time Culpepper went down, and maybe Culpepper himself. Randall Cunningham, Jeff George - everyone that threw to this guy did far better than any other time they played.
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Class Dismissed
Footballguy
It was a team that was 18-1 that had a cake schedule.
Banger
Footballguy
the team he did it with nearly went 19-0 the prior year and set nearly every offensive record. It remains to be seen how McD will do on a normal team.
Boston
Footballguy
I like what Denver did here. They got a lot in return for a QB I don't think McDaniels was ever enamored with. Maybe he was spoiled by being around Brady's (and to a lesser extent Cassel) leadership and professionalism but I don't believe McDaniels was confident building his team around Cutler's personality. Talent/physical skills are unquestioned with Cutler but this whole episode (and McDaniels has a ton of blame as well) probably further convinced him that he did not want to hand the keys of the franchise over to Cutler. For his sake he better be right because this is the type of deal that can haunt you for a real long time.
whitem0nkey
Footballguy
some more good infoThe Man With No Name said:
puckalicious
Footballguy
I would really like to hear more about Bennett from those that have evaluated him. What is his Dynasty outlook w/Cutler?
They didn't have to give up much more for this guy than they did Mirer (the 11th pick in the draft). Didn't the Seahawks get Walter Jones or someone out of the pick we gave up for him? And it's not like he had even shown any ability to be any good either. Wanny after trade: "All the pieces are in place". And they got 3 starts out of him.Any look back at Bears history will tell you this was a spectacular deal. No doubt this is probably the best trade in at least decades for the Bears.
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
I thought Olsen was going to breakthrough this season anyway. This is great news for Olsen owners, or at least for his current value in dynasty leagues.jojoh07 said:As an Olsen owner , THANK YOU . this guy could easily put top 5 TE numbers.As a scheffler owner
Cutler threw for a ton of yards on a team that despite having no RB, averaged 4.8 a carry. He was sacked only 11 times despite 616 attempts. He had one of the most physically gifted WRs in the NFL at his disposal, as well as a solid #2 and a good TE. At lastly, he had one of the best offensive minds as a head coach. Cutler has a gigantic "product of the system" hanging over his head.
Now, I don't blame him for the lack of success in Denver, but I don't think this is a slam dunk for Chicago. I just don't think a "gunslinger" is the type of QB I want on a defensive minded team. In my opinion, this won't work out well for Chicago.
Now, I don't blame him for the lack of success in Denver, but I don't think this is a slam dunk for Chicago. I just don't think a "gunslinger" is the type of QB I want on a defensive minded team. In my opinion, this won't work out well for Chicago.
Banger
Footballguy
I couldn't disagree more. Cutler will be great. His defense got him no turnovers, he was a gunslinger out of necessity, he was tremendous on 3rd downs, I could go on. Great defense, good running game, great passing game, what's not to like.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
I've been pointing out this same thing since this whole Cutler thing started. The script is nearly identical to Favre and McNair. I know Joe didn't agree with my assessment of Cook earlier, and I don't hold Bus in very high regard.Sigmund Bloom said:
I too believe Cook and Cutler wanted out with the regime change, and the just waited for something to try to exploit.
Look no further than Cutler demanding a trade, then coming out today saying he never wanted to be traded. Which is it Jay?
Good for Chicago, but I despise Bus Cook.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I have no problem admitting that the Bears are going to be better with Cutler and that it will be strange not to have the best QB in the NFC North for the first time in 15+ years. My "desperation move" comment is just a reference to the obvious fact that they took a huge mortgage on the future to get this guy, and I don't think the jury is back yet on his ability to lead a team, much less qualify as a "franchise" QB. The fact is that the Bears defense was a liability last year, and its not going to get better any time soon with no first round picks the next two years, especially when Bus Cook comes knocking on Angelo's door. You've got question marks up and down the OL and no receiver to speak of. Its really pretty big on the risk/reward scale in my opinion.This sure makes that Monday night opener a much more interesting game. I wouldn't have thought they could top last year's opener against the Vikings in terms of drama, but this might do it.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Wow, great Job by the Bears.. I hope they get Jay his money if he performs this yr. No point in doing this trade and then just pissing the kid off and not paying him. This Kid's talent is priceless.
Denver and JMcD, you guys really blew it; yeah you got value but you better hope to gawd that you do better than 8 - 8 or else the fan base is going to go ape.
Orton's value goes up just because hes no a better offense... but I wouldn't be to sure thats hes the starter yet.
I totally expect Denver to give Josh a 1st round QB if he wants it. Orton is an avg QB, but after all this, Josh isn't going to settle for an avg QB.
Cutler's value takes a hit, but atleast he gets to play the Packers & Lions twice a yr each.
Denver and JMcD, you guys really blew it; yeah you got value but you better hope to gawd that you do better than 8 - 8 or else the fan base is going to go ape.
Orton's value goes up just because hes no a better offense... but I wouldn't be to sure thats hes the starter yet.
I totally expect Denver to give Josh a 1st round QB if he wants it. Orton is an avg QB, but after all this, Josh isn't going to settle for an avg QB.
Cutler's value takes a hit, but atleast he gets to play the Packers & Lions twice a yr each.
