Danish McDonalds Workers Earn $20 An Hour - Big Mac Costs... (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

You're personal example is but one. And not that different from my own. Mother's parents jumped on a ship, grandpa busted ### building a small grocery business, and on my fathers side it was previous immigrants with a similar story.

1. As we have discussed here, today's current climate is hardly like those of the past (all the while, yes, many similarities to past era's and cycles as well)

2. Blaming poor parents, or even just stating that, is a sad and narrow view of a far more complicated reality. A reality that, imo, if we don't tend to, our very freedoms are at stake. Oh, and I actually care if some kid is born into a situation where he generally is all but slotted for a life of near poverty or worse.

3. As to the last sentence, we can reference a couple threads on this board, or a number of other studies - or well, our freakin' brains and look around objectively, recognize that we owe it to our fellow humans, not to say even Americans, to provide a more equitable chance at the American dream.

4. I'm wrong? REALLY? You are going to take an issue with the nuance and complexities as this is just flat out say that? Because of your personal experience and nothing else? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Though again, I commend your family and you for moving on up.

 

[Christo]

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

America is a great country but I'd rather have us #1 than #17.

Ain't gonna happen. Look at who's ahead of us. Much smaller and predominantly homogeneous populations. We have issues most of those countries don't have to deal with.

 

[Koya]

Koya, I may not agree with everything you say but I appreciate your contributions in this thread

Appreciated. To be honest with you, I'm not liking a lot of the conclusions that this very thread has me forming.

I mean, the thought of socialism, true earnest socialism, runs counter to everything Id want for this nation.

However, if someone said, you can grow up in this country, with "X" system of governance, and be extremely happy, or in "Y" system of governance, and even if you are lucky enough to be toward the elite of society, you probably won't be as happy....

Ugh.

 

[Koya]

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

America is a great country but I'd rather have us #1 than #17.

Ain't gonna happen. Look at who's ahead of us. Much smaller and predominantly homogeneous populations. We have issues most of those countries don't have to deal with.

This is actually a very fair point. Although I think it would be hubris for us to not at least look how we may better ourselves as a nation, including well... the Pursuit of Happiness.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

Koya, I may not agree with everything you say but I appreciate your contributions in this thread

Appreciated. To be honest with you, I'm not liking a lot of the conclusions that this very thread has me forming.

I mean, the thought of socialism, true earnest socialism, runs counter to everything Id want for this nation.

However, if someone said, you can grow up in this country, with "X" system of governance, and be extremely happy, or in "Y" system of governance, and even if you are lucky enough to be toward the elite of society, you probably won't be as happy....

Ugh.

Don't think we need true socialism either. I'd be happy with a little less whining about how a little increase in taxes is going to destroy the country when we know from experience that it won't.

 

[chauncey]

Ain't gonna happen. Look at who's ahead of us. Much smaller and predominantly homogeneous populations. We have issues most of those countries don't have to deal with.

Good point. I'm no expert on population size but it looks like the US is #1 happiest nation with populations over x,000,000 people. :murica:Maybe we are looking at the wrong thing here in terms of "happiness" and "success". What if it has nothing to do with one's economic status/salary/hourly wage? It wouldn't surprise me if all those small European countries that top the list value things like family, friends, culture, food, drink, nature, etc more than money. Maybe it is America's obsession with money, posessions, politics, media that makes us such a miserable lot. (A little off topic I guess from the OP)

 

[humpback]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

Your parents stayed married and make sure you did well in school, right?

What does that have to do with this conversation?

 

[chauncey]

Also the top 9 nations on that list are cold as ####. Maybe being stuck indoors for 6 months out of the year leads to lots of boozin and bangin, no wonder they are all happy.

 

[EYLive]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

You're personal example is but one. And not that different from my own. Mother's parents jumped on a ship, grandpa busted ### building a small grocery business, and on my fathers side it was previous immigrants with a similar story.

1. As we have discussed here, today's current climate is hardly like those of the past (all the while, yes, many similarities to past era's and cycles as well)

2. Blaming poor parents, or even just stating that, is a sad and narrow view of a far more complicated reality. A reality that, imo, if we don't tend to, our very freedoms are at stake. Oh, and I actually care if some kid is born into a situation where he generally is all but slotted for a life of near poverty or worse.

3. As to the last sentence, we can reference a couple threads on this board, or a number of other studies - or well, our freakin' brains and look around objectively, recognize that we owe it to our fellow humans, not to say even Americans, to provide a more equitable chance at the American dream.

4. I'm wrong? REALLY? You are going to take an issue with the nuance and complexities as this is just flat out say that? Because of your personal experience and nothing else? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Though again, I commend your family and you for moving on up.

What about effort and personal responsibility? Do either of those matter before we declare a kid doomed to poverty?

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

 

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

You're personal example is but one. And not that different from my own. Mother's parents jumped on a ship, grandpa busted ### building a small grocery business, and on my fathers side it was previous immigrants with a similar story.

1. As we have discussed here, today's current climate is hardly like those of the past (all the while, yes, many similarities to past era's and cycles as well)

2. Blaming poor parents, or even just stating that, is a sad and narrow view of a far more complicated reality. A reality that, imo, if we don't tend to, our very freedoms are at stake. Oh, and I actually care if some kid is born into a situation where he generally is all but slotted for a life of near poverty or worse.

3. As to the last sentence, we can reference a couple threads on this board, or a number of other studies - or well, our freakin' brains and look around objectively, recognize that we owe it to our fellow humans, not to say even Americans, to provide a more equitable chance at the American dream.

4. I'm wrong? REALLY? You are going to take an issue with the nuance and complexities as this is just flat out say that? Because of your personal experience and nothing else? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Though again, I commend your family and you for moving on up.

What about effort and personal responsibility? Do either of those matter before we declare a kid doomed to poverty?

Where have I ever said that either effort or personal responsibility are not - and should not be - a considerable matter?

What is the reality is that regardless of effort and personal responsibility, if you are born into certain segments of this nation's population, you have far, far less chance at even a decent life than you should. At least in a nation that holds so many riches as ours (monetarily and otherwise).

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

And the absurdity that just a little elbow grease can become the savior for many born into that circumstance is either/some combination of ignorance and self ingratiating selfishness.

 

[Koya]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

I think the discussion can start (and must start) at a theoretical level. Our nation has veered so far off from its promise.

For one, just how much poverty etc do we accept? Do we admit that a kid born into any number of poor neighborhoods in this country that they have a far, far lesser chance to achieve economic independence, not to say comfortableness?

Is it ok to have an entire subclass, essentially, that, by the numbers (and the numbers are harsh), really are, by and large, eliminated from the American dream unless they become the absolute exception(s) that prove the harsh rule.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

Take the kids at what age? The "reality" is they learn their work habits and responsibility from their parents. It's not the neighborhood that's holding these kids back. It's their family environment. I'm not sure what we can do about that. But some kids make it out of those neighborhoods. For the most part those are the kids who's parents brought them up right, even in a bad neighborhood. The stats are the way they are not so much because of the neighborhood but the people who populate those neighborhoods.

 

[EYLive]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

You're personal example is but one. And not that different from my own. Mother's parents jumped on a ship, grandpa busted ### building a small grocery business, and on my fathers side it was previous immigrants with a similar story.

1. As we have discussed here, today's current climate is hardly like those of the past (all the while, yes, many similarities to past era's and cycles as well)

2. Blaming poor parents, or even just stating that, is a sad and narrow view of a far more complicated reality. A reality that, imo, if we don't tend to, our very freedoms are at stake. Oh, and I actually care if some kid is born into a situation where he generally is all but slotted for a life of near poverty or worse.

3. As to the last sentence, we can reference a couple threads on this board, or a number of other studies - or well, our freakin' brains and look around objectively, recognize that we owe it to our fellow humans, not to say even Americans, to provide a more equitable chance at the American dream.

4. I'm wrong? REALLY? You are going to take an issue with the nuance and complexities as this is just flat out say that? Because of your personal experience and nothing else? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Though again, I commend your family and you for moving on up.

What about effort and personal responsibility? Do either of those matter before we declare a kid doomed to poverty?

Where have I ever said that either effort or personal responsibility are not - and should not be - a considerable matter?

What is the reality is that regardless of effort and personal responsibility, if you are born into certain segments of this nation's population, you have far, far less chance at even a decent life than you should. At least in a nation that holds so many riches as ours (monetarily and otherwise).

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

And the absurdity that just a little elbow grease can become the savior for many born into that circumstance is either/some combination of ignorance and self ingratiating selfishness.

I think we found the problem in some people's thinking.

And you're wrong again, it takes A LOT more than a little elbow grease. It takes a ton of hard work to become a success if you come from nothing. What's absurd is giving up and blaming your circumstances.

And at what point do you discourage people from having children if they are going to be "born into that circumstance"?

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

I think the discussion can start (and must start) at a theoretical level. Our nation has veered so far off from its promise.

For one, just how much poverty etc do we accept? Do we admit that a kid born into any number of poor neighborhoods in this country that they have a far, far lesser chance to achieve economic independence, not to say comfortableness?

Is it ok to have an entire subclass, essentially, that, by the numbers (and the numbers are harsh), really are, by and large, eliminated from the American dream unless they become the absolute exception(s) that prove the harsh rule.

Modern poverty is largely a function of the economy. When the economy is doing well poverty falls.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Re: "opportunity". I think the opportunity is still there. I think there are a couple of problems though:

- People's expectations re: the American dream. It's certainly possible to jump from total poverty to being rich but I think the more realistic expectation is to move up a level or two, and then your kids move up a level or two. You know, how the immigrants used to progress in America a hundred years ago.

- The other problem is the loss of education re: lesser skilled jobs like construction. Our schools don't even teach the skills for those types of jobs any more. Shop class is gone, and now the mantra is that every kid should go to college. We need to quit with that. Not all kids should go to college but you can still earn a decent living in construction, or plumbing, or a bunch of other not so glamorous professions. But there isn't a good career path for those types of jobs.

Illegal immigration is also a problem. Illegals depress wages in low/medium skilled jobs. I know people in construction who have been hurt by this, to the point of having to move to other states to earn a decent living.

No one wants to confront the real problems of poverty. It's not politically expedient to say that a lot of it is self inflicted by those in it, our education system is failing many who aren't destined for college, and illegal immigration is a significant wage depressor.

 

[Koya]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

I think the discussion can start (and must start) at a theoretical level. Our nation has veered so far off from its promise.

For one, just how much poverty etc do we accept? Do we admit that a kid born into any number of poor neighborhoods in this country that they have a far, far lesser chance to achieve economic independence, not to say comfortableness?

Is it ok to have an entire subclass, essentially, that, by the numbers (and the numbers are harsh), really are, by and large, eliminated from the American dream unless they become the absolute exception(s) that prove the harsh rule.

Modern poverty is largely a function of the economy. When the economy is doing well poverty falls.

Poverty falls.

To what point? In a cyclical manner only to re-appear (for the same group of people at that), or is there a sustained process by which those born into poverty have equal access to at least live a decent life?

Overall poverty is a function of the economy. Having socio-economic classes that are essentially locked in is a function of policy. And/or not caring.

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

I think the discussion can start (and must start) at a theoretical level. Our nation has veered so far off from its promise.

For one, just how much poverty etc do we accept? Do we admit that a kid born into any number of poor neighborhoods in this country that they have a far, far lesser chance to achieve economic independence, not to say comfortableness?

Is it ok to have an entire subclass, essentially, that, by the numbers (and the numbers are harsh), really are, by and large, eliminated from the American dream unless they become the absolute exception(s) that prove the harsh rule.

Modern poverty is largely a function of the economy. When the economy is doing well poverty falls.

Poverty falls.

To what point? In a cyclical manner only to re-appear (for the same group of people at that), or is there a sustained process by which those born into poverty have equal access to at least live a decent life?

Overall poverty is a function of the economy. Having socio-economic classes that are essentially locked in is a function of policy. And/or not caring.

If they were as locked in as you are suggesting we wouldn't have people from all classes flocking to enter the country.It really seems like you are suggesting that we take kids away from uneducated/ lazy/bad parents and give them to a state system where they can be raised. Outside of that I don't see how what you are looking for can be accomplished.

 

[Koya]

If they were as locked in as you are suggesting we wouldn't have people from all classes flocking to enter the country.It really seems like you are suggesting that we take kids away from uneducated/ lazy/bad parents and give them to a state system where they can be raised. Outside of that I don't see how what you are looking for can be accomplished.

To your first point, this nation still provides significant promise. And, honestly, probably more promise for an enterprising immigrant population that is willing to be the exceptional to begin with or part of an already well born / connected family with some advantages to begin with. Think about it, you are Chinese on an EB-5 visa, or the tiny percentage of the Indian population that has the ability (and wealth / connections) to get here. On the other side, you are risking your life and limb, having the balls and tenacity to get here on a raft, or via coyote, through frozen desert nights.

I suppose to get a bit more refined in my (albeit, evolving) position, once you are in a circle of poverty here, it appears very, very difficult to get out. Far more so than it should be.

To your second point, it's insulting. I'd honestly not even go there as this has largely been a good conversation. In fact, I don't believe I have mentioned parents once. If you can't think of ANYTHING else that can be accomplished and jump to an assumption that we take kids, that's more on you, than me.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

Where have I ever said that either effort or personal responsibility are not - and should not be - a considerable matter?

What is the reality is that regardless of effort and personal responsibility, if you are born into certain segments of this nation's population, you have far, far less chance at even a decent life than you should. At least in a nation that holds so many riches as ours (monetarily and otherwise).

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

And the absurdity that just a little elbow grease can become the savior for many born into that circumstance is either/some combination of ignorance and self ingratiating selfishness.

I think we found the problem in some people's thinking.

And you're wrong again, it takes A LOT more than a little elbow grease. It takes a ton of hard work to become a success if you come from nothing. What's absurd is giving up and blaming your circumstances.

And at what point do you discourage people from having children if they are going to be "born into that circumstance"?

You're absolutely right, but kids need to be able to see that path from hard work to success. If a kid hasn't seen it done (besides by a drug dealer) they aren't going to believe they can make it and will give up.

We need more community involvement in the schools from people who have made it out of poverty and are successful. We also need more counselors in the schools to meet with kids and help them deal with their problems and keep them on track.

 

[Koya]

Where have I ever said that either effort or personal responsibility are not - and should not be - a considerable matter?

What is the reality is that regardless of effort and personal responsibility, if you are born into certain segments of this nation's population, you have far, far less chance at even a decent life than you should. At least in a nation that holds so many riches as ours (monetarily and otherwise).

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

And the absurdity that just a little elbow grease can become the savior for many born into that circumstance is either/some combination of ignorance and self ingratiating selfishness.

I think we found the problem in some people's thinking.

And you're wrong again, it takes A LOT more than a little elbow grease. It takes a ton of hard work to become a success if you come from nothing. What's absurd is giving up and blaming your circumstances.

And at what point do you discourage people from having children if they are going to be "born into that circumstance"?

You're absolutely right, but kids need to be able to see that path from hard work to success. If a kid hasn't seen it done (besides by a drug dealer) they aren't going to believe they can make it and will give up.

We need more community involvement in the schools from people who have made it out of poverty and are successful. We also need more counselors in the schools to meet with kids and help them deal with their problems and keep them on track.

Let's be 100% honest here. In some (a good number, sadly) cases, those who have the drive, intellect and determination recognize that dealin' or other nefarious acts is their best chance.

I'd suggest that we, as a nation, can do better.

 

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

You're personal example is but one. And not that different from my own. Mother's parents jumped on a ship, grandpa busted ### building a small grocery business, and on my fathers side it was previous immigrants with a similar story.

1. As we have discussed here, today's current climate is hardly like those of the past (all the while, yes, many similarities to past era's and cycles as well)

2. Blaming poor parents, or even just stating that, is a sad and narrow view of a far more complicated reality. A reality that, imo, if we don't tend to, our very freedoms are at stake. Oh, and I actually care if some kid is born into a situation where he generally is all but slotted for a life of near poverty or worse.

3. As to the last sentence, we can reference a couple threads on this board, or a number of other studies - or well, our freakin' brains and look around objectively, recognize that we owe it to our fellow humans, not to say even Americans, to provide a more equitable chance at the American dream.

4. I'm wrong? REALLY? You are going to take an issue with the nuance and complexities as this is just flat out say that? Because of your personal experience and nothing else? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Though again, I commend your family and you for moving on up.

What about effort and personal responsibility? Do either of those matter before we declare a kid doomed to poverty?

Where have I ever said that either effort or personal responsibility are not - and should not be - a considerable matter?

What is the reality is that regardless of effort and personal responsibility, if you are born into certain segments of this nation's population, you have far, far less chance at even a decent life than you should. At least in a nation that holds so many riches as ours (monetarily and otherwise).

Take the same 100 kids that have the same amount of innate effort and personal responsibility and drop them into vastly different US neighborhoods to be raised? Come on... this is the truth that we have to face.

And the absurdity that just a little elbow grease can become the savior for many born into that circumstance is either/some combination of ignorance and self ingratiating selfishness.

I think we found the problem in some people's thinking.

And you're wrong again, it takes A LOT more than a little elbow grease. It takes a ton of hard work to become a success if you come from nothing. What's absurd is giving up and blaming your circumstances.

And at what point do you discourage people from having children if they are going to be "born into that circumstance"?

1. I know and understand what it takes. Looks like you conveniently recall the things that agree with your mindset and ignore the rest. My parents lived the same story your family seems to have. My father worked as hard as anyone to become a professional musician. I get it.

2. Who EVER talked about "giving up" because of your circumstances? You seem to be looking at the people in question (as if they are victims at that), while I am talking about what can / should a society do to allow for those born into such circumstance to have a better chance at normalcy.

3. If you are really going to take a turn of phrase literally, as if it's "just a little" work, there is no need to pretend to have a conversation with you. It's pathetic.

 

[Sand]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Promote rather than impede job creation, as is currently happening in South Dakota?

And (though my real thoughts are to disband all public education unions) how about at least not trying to shut down spectacular successes because the entrenched politically connected interests don't want their monopoly boat rocked?

 

[msommer]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

Winner!

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

Including the millions of illegal immigrants who work non-skilled jobs and the millions of immigrants who timmy thinks we need.

Monopoly looks like a lot of fun.... until the last few moments where it gets really ugly.

We're not there yet... but getting really close.

 

[FlapJacks]

So they compare all US McDonalds workers (a huge number of which are under 21) with the ones that are over 21 in Denmark?

How many McDs workers in Denmark are under 21? How do the apples to apples numbers compare?

What is Denmark's unemployment rate for the demographic that most work at McD in the US compared to the demographic that most works at McD in Denmark?

All those are crucial statistics that aren't even mentioned.

any country to country comparison is going to be difficult to draw an adequate comparison and conclusion

Although I do think we need to be more visionary about economics and the future. Unchecked corporate power, like unchecked government power, can be a dangerous thing.

 

[Koya]

So they compare all US McDonalds workers (a huge number of which are under 21) with the ones that are over 21 in Denmark?

How many McDs workers in Denmark are under 21? How do the apples to apples numbers compare?

What is Denmark's unemployment rate for the demographic that most work at McD in the US compared to the demographic that most works at McD in Denmark?

All those are crucial statistics that aren't even mentioned.

any country to country comparison is going to be difficult to draw an adequate comparison and conclusion

Although I do think we need to be more visionary about economics and the future. Unchecked corporate power, like unchecked government power, can be a dangerous thing.

When the interests of unchecked corporate power and those of unchecked govt power intersect, almost becoming impossible to distinguish at times from each other, you really have a dangerous situation.

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.

In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

 

[msommer]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.

In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

.

 

[DrJ]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

The main reason those in poverty lack opportunity is because their parents blow, never use a library, never read to them, never help them with their homework (hey, you may actually learn something this time around deadbeat parent). And they act like they're stuck at some job at McDonald's despite the gigantic pile of opportunity that's available to them.

 

[DrJ]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.

In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

.

Because you don't have droves of burger flippers entering your country on a daily basis.

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?.

Are you being intentionally obtuse or this really just over your head?

 

[msommer]

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?.

Are you being intentionally obtuse or this really just over your head?

Funny, I thought about asking you the same, so why don't you explain yourself as if you were explaining it to a Danish person

 

[msommer]

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

Because you don't have droves of burger flippers entering your country on a daily basis.

Does McDonald's employ illegal immigrants?

 

[humpback]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

Winner!

So paying burger flippers more is going to make us the happiest country on earth, or solve any of the various issues being discussed in here?

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

Take a look at Denmarks demographics and come up with a good way for the US to get there.

Which specific demographic(s) makes it possible to pay burger flippers more?

They have very, very tight immigration policies so the culture, language, education, etc. of it's citizens is much more uniform. It's hard to even marry into citizenship. Denmark is essentially for the Danes.

In this culture apparently their socialist system works. They don't have the problems or benefits that come from diversity. They take a lot if heat from other UN countries as their policies are considered somewhat bigoted, but if makes them happy, it makes them happy.

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

.

Because homos are happy pay $0.35 more for a hamburger with special sauce.

 

[parasaurolophus]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

I completely disagree.

I think the mindset that there isn't a path to a better life and a path to a better life for your kids is doing our country harm.

I like that if you make sacrifices that you can make things better for your own children. If more people took that attitude then more children would have a better life. The real problem in our society is not that the rich view the minimum wage workers in a negative light. It is that minimum wage workers don't view earning 14 bucks an hour in a positive light that is worthy of working toward. The American dream should be a better life for your children, not that everybody deserves a Mercedes and a vacation home or even a great shot at one.

I don't think anybody would ever argue that a child born to wealth is far less likely to be a minimum wage earner when he is 40 than a child born to min. wage parents. That isn't the question that matters. The question that matters is does everybody have a fair shot at leaving a better life for their children.

The answer to that question is inarguably, yes.

We all know that guy from high school that was a complete slacker and then joined then studied in Europe for two years and is now traveling the world and drives an amazing car because his dad owns a company that makes piles of money. We can be jealous of him and complain how unfair it is that he is a moron and will make more money in his life than I will ever see or we can want to be like his dad and strive to create a scenario similar for our own kids.

Is it fair that the spoiled rich kid gets to live that life? Of course not. However it is far more unfair to take anything away from him that his father, or even father's father built up.

 

[DrJ]

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

Because you don't have droves of burger flippers entering your country on a daily basis.

Does McDonald's employ illegal immigrants?

Yes, they and many other restaurants do. Along with many other professions that would be competing with McDonald's for talent, creating downward pressure on all the wages of all low skilled workers.

 

[msommer]

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

Because you don't have droves of burger flippers entering your country on a daily basis.

Does McDonald's employ illegal immigrants?

Yes, they and many other restaurants do. Along with many other professions that would be competing with McDonald's for talent, creating downward pressure on all the wages of all low skilled workers.

Someone ought to tell the INS

 

[Angry Beavers]

MMMM.. Cheezeburger and Shake....

 

[DrJ]

Sorry, but that is not an answer. How does being a homogenous population allow you to pay your burger flippers more?

Because you don't have droves of burger flippers entering your country on a daily basis.

Does McDonald's employ illegal immigrants?

Yes, they and many other restaurants do. Along with many other professions that would be competing with McDonald's for talent, creating downward pressure on all the wages of all low skilled workers.

Someone ought to tell the INS

Agreed.

 

[Mark Davis]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

Like any game, there are winners and losers. You can't simply restart the game unless you plan on stripping everyone of every possession they have. Very few players will start in the same place (equally good parents, equivalent wealth, equivalent school districts). There will never be a totally balanced floor. However, you can start behind someone in the game and in the end, for lack of a better term "beat" them at it. To a large degree economics and money is always a game, the better player (smartest, educated, saver, more earning power, saver who doesn't overspend) wins the game. Yeah it's true that in all likelihood neither of my daughters will ever have what Warren Buffett's grandkids may have, but that's ok with me. We have a lot more mobility within our system than most. And while we are at it, smart people do tend to have smart kids. That doesn't mean the parents were good with money, but higher intelligence would correlate statistically to more affluence. It stands to reason their kids would also tend to be the same way.

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

Like any game, there are winners and losers. You can't simply restart the game unless you plan on stripping everyone of every possession they have. Very few players will start in the same place (equally good parents, equivalent wealth, equivalent school districts). There will never be a totally balanced floor. However, you can start behind someone in the game and in the end, for lack of a better term "beat" them at it. To a large degree economics and money is always a game, the better player (smartest, educated, saver, more earning power, saver who doesn't overspend) wins the game. Yeah it's true that in all likelihood neither of my daughters will ever have what Warren Buffett's grandkids may have, but that's ok with me. We have a lot more mobility within our system than most. And while we are at it, smart people do tend to have smart kids. That doesn't mean the parents were good with money, but higher intelligence would correlate statistically to more affluence. It stands to reason their kids would also tend to be the same way.

I'm not proposing a new game. I'm saying the worst part of the current game is about to arrive. What kind of game will follow it will be anyone's guess. But the odds of it being a repeat of the same game are probably infinte.

 

[Tom Servo]

Minimum wage for thee but not for me!

The Freedom Socialist Party wants the minimum wage to be $20 an hour. However, they don't feel compelled to compensate their own workers with that kind of cash.

The party is looking for a web developer, and posted a job listing on Craigslist a week ago and Indeed.com yesterday, and it's been raising eyebrows on social media.

Although the average annual salary of a web developer in the U.S. is around $62,500, the Freedom Socialist Party only wants to pay $13 an hour, which would be $26,000 a year. Except that the party won't hire someone full-time, so their next web developer's total compensation won't even be that modest chunk of change.

Just another case of liberal hypocrisy.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Minimum wage for thee but not for me!

The Freedom Socialist Party wants the minimum wage to be $20 an hour. However, they don't feel compelled to compensate their own workers with that kind of cash.

The party is looking for a web developer, and posted a job listing on Craigslist a week ago and Indeed.com yesterday, and it's been raising eyebrows on social media.

Although the average annual salary of a web developer in the U.S. is around $62,500, the Freedom Socialist Party only wants to pay $13 an hour, which would be $26,000 a year. Except that the party won't hire someone full-time, so their next web developer's total compensation won't even be that modest chunk of change.

Just another case of liberal hypocrisy.

There is a reason the word "hypocrisy" is closely associated with the word "liberal". You don't even need to post "liberal hypocrisy" they are so similar. That's like saying "Just another case of liberal liberal".

 

[Ilov80s]

Where you find horses, you will find horse####. Where you find people, you will find hypocrisy. It's only natural.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Minimum wage for thee but not for me!

The Freedom Socialist Party wants the minimum wage to be $20 an hour. However, they don't feel compelled to compensate their own workers with that kind of cash.



The party is looking for a web developer, and posted a job listing on Craigslist a week ago and Indeed.com yesterday, and it's been raising eyebrows on social media.

Although the average annual salary of a web developer in the U.S. is around $62,500, the Freedom Socialist Party only wants to pay $13 an hour, which would be $26,000 a year. Except that the party won't hire someone full-time, so their next web developer's total compensation won't even be that modest chunk of change.

Just another case of liberal hypocrisy.

Is it double hypocrisy if they aren't offering a full-time position to avoid the ACA? What if a woman gets the job, triple? Might as well ask if they're requiring a license and ss card like all of my employers have done?

 

[Tom Servo]

Where you find horses, you will find horse####. Where you find people, you will find hypocrisy. It's only natural.

I'll save this quote for later.

 

[Ilov80s]

Where you find horses, you will find horse####. Where you find people, you will find hypocrisy. It's only natural.

I'll save this quote for later.

I'm not a liberal. I am a hypocrite though.