Elway or Brees - who is the better all-time QB? (1 Viewer)

[Mr Anonymous]

How dare you overlook the Bobby Hebert era.

Shame on you.

Speaking of which...

It's safe to say that Bobby Hebert and John Elway played in the same era. It's cherry picking but in the six year span from 1987 to 1992, when Hebert was the Saints starting QB,  Hebert had higher passer ratings  in 4 of those 6 years despite missing the entire 1990 season.

Hebert '87 - 82.9 RTG

Elway '87 - 83.4 RTG

-------------------------------------

Hebert '88 - 79.3 RTG

Elway '88 - 71.4 RTG

----------------------------------------

Hebert '89 - 82.7 RTG

Elway '89 - 73.7 RTG

-----------------------------------------

Hebert '91 - 79.0 RTG

Elway '91 - 75.5 RTG

-----------------------------------------

Hebert '92 - 82.9 RTG

Elway '92 - 65.7 RTG

John Elway threw a lot of interceptions. A lot. Sure the rules have changed dramatically to favor the passing game, but I don't recall anyone arguing for Bobby Hebert as one of the best to play the position when he was throwing the ball better than John Elway when they were the exact same age. Covers each's age 27-32 seasons.

 

[travdogg]

I thought of mentioning that but it’s sort of inexpressible. How do you describe a franchise that never had anything and a fan base that sort of embraced doom as a raison d’etre suddenly finding itself led by a winner, someone who brought hope and success and bound the city to it? He’s the all time leading passing and TD leader, that was completely unimaginable. Iirc before this era the Saints never even had any position players rank in the top 50 all time anything, except maybe Archie Manning who ended with 27K yards lifetime. I just don’t think other fans can relate, and I’m not sure I want to hash it out with anyone who seeks to.

I'll always make a case that Pat Swilling was every bit the player Charles Haley was, he just wasn't on the 49ers or Cowboys. I'd certainly call him a top-50 pass rusher of all-time, maybe even top-25.

 

[GROOT]

I'll always make a case that Pat Swilling was every bit the player Charles Haley was, he just wasn't on the 49ers or Cowboys. I'd certainly call him a top-50 pass rusher of all-time, maybe even top-25.

FUN FACT, I used to deliver pizza to Pat Swilling. He lived in Kenner.

 

[Tanner9919]

I am seeing a lot of complaining on Twitter (big shock there) about Elway making the NFL's 100 greatest players list over Brees.  While Brees (who I am a big fan of) has the better overall stats, largely because of playing inside and in an era where you cannot touch a WR or breathe on a QB, Elway's greatness almost had to be seen to be believed.  I think some forget that there is more to football that fantasy football numbers. 

good post. I agree. anyone thinking Brees is better hasn't watched a lot of football. Brees is the greatest stat compiler of all time, and really little else. he won a SB on a riverboat gamble to start the 2nd half, and a Manning pick 6 with seconds left. he sucks outdoors on grass.he stinks in big games on the road. 

Elway has played 3 of the greatest SB-era teams in his 3 SB defeats - 1984 Niners, 15-1, widely regarded as the best team in the history of the NFL - if you never saw them play you have no idea just how good they were, on both sides of the ball. Next, they lost to the 1986 Giants and one of the best-ever  defenses. Then they played the Redskins team led by Doug Williams , who were one of the more dominant teams you'll ever see. 

Then he beat the defending SB champion Packers, and next the Falcons.

Elway was a superior field general to Brees. That 90+ yard drive to beat cleveland in the afc championship game was the stuff of legend. 

 Elway was 14-7 in 21 postseason games as a starter with Denver. Elway ranks 4th ALL-TIME in postseason wins. Brees is 8-7 postseason, ranked 19th ALL-TIME in postseason wins.

Brees is a stat whore, poster child for a 'system guy', while Elway is one of the game's greatest QBs ever. He did it ALL by himself.  

 

[travdogg]

While I wouldn't go to the extremes of putting Elway behind Bobby Hebert(even tongue in cheek) I would argue him 3rd in his draft class, behind obviously Marino, and I'd make a case behind Jim Kelly. 

Kelly beats Elway in every rate state there is. Better YPA, better TD-INT ratio, better passer rating, better comp%, better YPG. The only thing Elway wins is career cumulative stats, which is because he played 74 more games, which is 4 full seasons and 10 games, and Super Bowl victories. Although Elway lost to both the Giants and Redskins in back to back years, just like Kelly did. The Packers and especially Falcons, were nowhere near the teams the Cowboys were, the team that was on par with those Cowboys teams beat Elway's Broncos 55-10.

 

[wgoldsph]

good post. I agree. anyone thinking Brees is better hasn't watched a lot of football. Brees is the greatest stat compiler of all time, and really little else. he won a SB on a riverboat gamble to start the 2nd half, and a Manning pick 6 with seconds left. he sucks outdoors on grass.he stinks in big games on the road. 

Elway has played 3 of the greatest SB-era teams in his 3 SB defeats - 1984 Niners, 15-1, widely regarded as the best team in the history of the NFL - if you never saw them play you have no idea just how good they were, on both sides of the ball. Next, they lost to the 1986 Giants and one of the best-ever  defenses. Then they played the Redskins team led by Doug Williams , who were one of the more dominant teams you'll ever see. 

Then he beat the defending SB champion Packers, and next the Falcons.

Elway was a superior field general to Brees. That 90+ yard drive to beat cleveland in the afc championship game was the stuff of legend. 

 Elway was 14-7 in 21 postseason games as a starter with Denver. Elway ranks 4th ALL-TIME in postseason wins. Brees is 8-7 postseason, ranked 19th ALL-TIME in postseason wins.

Brees is a stat whore, poster child for a 'system guy', while Elway is one of the game's greatest QBs ever. He did it ALL by himself.  

Man this post is just an old man telling me to get off his yard.

 

[wgoldsph]

Btw, there have been 10 seasons of 5000+ passing yards since Marino did it.  Brees was the first to break the barrier.

Brees owns 5 of those 10 seasons by himself.

For all the "different era" talk I think this is what needs to be looked at. 

 

[Man In The Box]

good post. I agree. anyone thinking Brees is better hasn't watched a lot of football. Brees is the greatest stat compiler of all time, and really little else. he won a SB on a riverboat gamble to start the 2nd half, and a Manning pick 6 with seconds left. he sucks outdoors on grass.he stinks in big games on the road. 

Elway has played 3 of the greatest SB-era teams in his 3 SB defeats - 1984 Niners, 15-1, widely regarded as the best team in the history of the NFL - if you never saw them play you have no idea just how good they were, on both sides of the ball. Next, they lost to the 1986 Giants and one of the best-ever  defenses. Then they played the Redskins team led by Doug Williams , who were one of the more dominant teams you'll ever see. 

Then he beat the defending SB champion Packers, and next the Falcons.

Elway was a superior field general to Brees. That 90+ yard drive to beat cleveland in the afc championship game was the stuff of legend. 

 Elway was 14-7 in 21 postseason games as a starter with Denver. Elway ranks 4th ALL-TIME in postseason wins. Brees is 8-7 postseason, ranked 19th ALL-TIME in postseason wins.

Brees is a stat whore, poster child for a 'system guy', while Elway is one of the game's greatest QBs ever. He did it ALL by himself.  

Small nitpick, but Elway didn’t play in the 84 SB, that was Marino. Elway lost to a different 49ers team (which was also a juggernaut). 

 

[Shawnky]

good post. I agree. anyone thinking Brees is better hasn't watched a lot of football. Brees is the greatest stat compiler of all time, and really little else. he won a SB on a riverboat gamble to start the 2nd half, and a Manning pick 6 with seconds left. he sucks outdoors on grass.he stinks in big games on the road. 

Elway has played 3 of the greatest SB-era teams in his 3 SB defeats - 1984 Niners, 15-1, widely regarded as the best team in the history of the NFL - if you never saw them play you have no idea just how good they were, on both sides of the ball. Next, they lost to the 1986 Giants and one of the best-ever  defenses. Then they played the Redskins team led by Doug Williams , who were one of the more dominant teams you'll ever see. 

Then he beat the defending SB champion Packers, and next the Falcons.

Elway was a superior field general to Brees. That 90+ yard drive to beat cleveland in the afc championship game was the stuff of legend. 

 Elway was 14-7 in 21 postseason games as a starter with Denver. Elway ranks 4th ALL-TIME in postseason wins. Brees is 8-7 postseason, ranked 19th ALL-TIME in postseason wins.

Brees is a stat whore, poster child for a 'system guy', while Elway is one of the game's greatest QBs ever. He did it ALL by himself.  

Garbage post

 

[Shawnky]

ALL by himself......I've seen this a couple times in here and can't stop laughing.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'll always make a case that Pat Swilling was every bit the player Charles Haley was, he just wasn't on the 49ers or Cowboys. I'd certainly call him a top-50 pass rusher of all-time, maybe even top-25.

Fwiw I meant offensive players. Swilling, Mills, Johnson and Jackson stand out as maybe the greatest single LB corps of all time, and it's always a point of pride for Saints fans. 

 

[Shawnky]

Glad to amuse you - might you have anything substantive to defend your position, especially in regard to surrounding talent? Do you dispute that having significantly different personal and/or overall level of surrounding talent does not impact one's career - and might impact different players in both different ways, and to varying degrees?

I have a response for this. Wrapping up a 4 day snowboarding venture.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I can't buy that in entirety because that would mean Trent Dilfer gets consideration that , say, Dan Marino doesn't because Trent "led" a team to a championship.

Bradshaw belongs in a conversation with a great deal of credit, respect, etc, but a LOT of his four rings has something to do with the other players on that team.

Once is an anomaly - Dilfer

Twice is a coincidence - Eli Manning

Three times is a pattern - Aikman

Four times is rarified company.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

One thing is for sure, Brees will make a much better GM

I regret not seeing this response earlier. Please, take my laughing emoji.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

One thing is for sure, Brees will make a much better GM

And he won't pass on a QB because he's an inch too short.

 

[Hoodoo]

But you can't compare numbers from two different eras.  Elway played most of his career when you could mug WRs and knock the crap out of the QB, while Brees has played most of his career in an era where flags are thrown if a WR or QB is so much sneezed on.  

Yet Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are there & Brees has better numbers in every single statistical category than all of them other than Brady & Superbowl wins.

 

[Anarchy99]

Yet Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are there & Brees has better numbers in every single statistical category than all of them other than Brady & Superbowl wins. What's the excuse there?

How many times do people have to point out that football is not just about who posted the best statistics? Manning won a ton of MVP's. Brady has the most SB wins and appearances and the highest winning percentage for a starting QB (for those that consider that a legit QB category). The NFL 100 list was a compilation of 100 players from 100 seasons. That doesn't mean Brees isn't one of the Top 100 players.

 

[Tau837]

Yet Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are there & Brees has better numbers in every single statistical category than all of them other than Brady & Superbowl wins.

For total body of work as of today, Brady > Peyton > Favre > Brees

Total body of work includes honors/awards and winning, particularly postseason success, in addition to statistical achievements.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

ALL by himself......I've seen this a couple times in here and can't stop laughing.

Agreed.  I'm nauseated whenever discussions of Top 10 QBs come up and Elway's name is dropped.  Were it not for Terrell Davis the guy would have zero rings.  Ben Roethlisburger and Phillip Rivers are better QBs than Elway.

 

[Hoodoo]

Agreed.  I'm nauseated whenever discussions of Top 10 QBs come up and Elway's name is dropped.  Were it not for Terrell Davis the guy would have zero rings.  Ben Roethlisburger and Phillip Rivers are better QBs than Elway.

Yeah, but Elway never had anyone to throw it to. Well, aside from Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Rod Smith & some girl named Shannon that no one has ever heard of.

 

[Todem]

Brees and it is not really close IMO. I always have felt Elway was one of the overrated QB's in the history of the game. Don't get me wrong. He was damn good. But not legendary to me. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yet Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are there & Brees has better numbers in every single statistical category than all of them other than Brady & Superbowl wins.

No, he doesn’t. 

Agreed.  I'm nauseated whenever discussions of Top 10 QBs come up and Elway's name is dropped.  Were it not for Terrell Davis the guy would have zero rings.  Ben Roethlisburger and Phillip Rivers are better QBs than Elway.

Ah, sarcasm. Well done. 

 

[DocHolliday]

What EXTREME talent on offense? Were Franco Harris or Lynn Swann EXTREME talents? People seem to say the same thing about them too, that they weren't that great. There are 4  Steelers  in the top 100 of all time, look at who they are.

If you don't think the Steelers teams of the 70s were extremely talented on both sides of the ball and on the sidelines, I dont know how they were a dynasty.   Swann and Stalworth were great.   Franco was great.   That D was probably the best.   The D had more to do with the SB wins that Bradshaw.   It's ok if you think Bradshaw is a better QB than Bree's though.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

If you don't think the Steelers teams of the 70s were extremely talented on both sides of the ball and on the sidelines, I dont know how they were a dynasty.   Swann and Stalworth were great.   Franco was great.   That D was probably the best.   The D had more to do with the SB wins that Bradshaw.   It's ok if you think Bradshaw is a better QB than Bree's though.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. 

Brees isn't just a better QB, but he won't be an embarrassment as a commentator.

 

[DocHolliday]

Brees isn't just a better QB, but he won't be an embarrassment as a commentator.

As a Raider fan since 1978 or 79, I hated Bradshaw until he became a commentator.  He cracks me up and seems like he would fun to hang with.   

 

[travdogg]

Brees isn't just a better QB, but he won't be an embarrassment as a commentator.

Bradshaw is probably the best studio guy on FOX. Not a high bar, but still. 

Side note, its interesting to see guys become commentators and not really be as good or be better than expected. Who in the 1980's would have though Collinsworth would be a top guy? 

 

[JohnnyU]

Also, Staubach in the top-10 is a joke.

Tom Landry basically proved that his quarterbacks were nothing more than interchangeable play callers. Danny White stepped right into Staubach's shoes and they didn't miss a beat.

Danny White doesn’t deserve to hold Staubach’s Water bottle.

 

[JohnnyU]

Bradshaw is probably the best studio guy on FOX. Not a high bar, but still. 

Side note, its interesting to see guys become commentators and not really be as good or be better than expected. Who in the 1980's would have though Collinsworth would be a top guy? 

Collinsworth is too in love with NE

 

[Koya]

Bradshaw is probably the best studio guy on FOX. Not a high bar, but still. 

Side note, its interesting to see guys become commentators and not really be as good or be better than expected. Who in the 1980's would have though Collinsworth would be a top guy? 

My buddy who just turned 30 (I’m 46) was shocked to learn that Collinsworth not only played NFL football, but was surprisingly productive for a time. 

 

[Koya]

I’m really surprised how many don’t agree/recognize how freakin redonk Elway was, especially in his prime, in big games/the playoffs with zero running game and questionable talent overall at times.
 

I do believe that we are becoming jaded by the huge numbers of today’s passing games. Between better/faster athletes, rules that do favor offensive players, modern passing schemes, health advancements they help prolong peak form... the numbers today are just nuts.

I went back and checked Montana’s stats a couple weeks back leading up to the top 100 episode, and was underwhelmed. But in the context of the time, and for those who watched him play, one of the elite of the elite in the convo for best ever. And this was a groundbreaking QB in one of the most innovative, talented, and well coached offenses EVER. 
 

As to today, look at the trending numbers for Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan. Huge.  But watching the game, these aren’t elite, winning QBs.   
 

Now, I think that also hurts guys like Brees, who imo is far more than compiling or just numbers... but Brees in 1987 simply couldn’t operate in the way he does today, and the numbers would reflect that, in addition to the schemes and reffing.

 

[Anarchy99]

Also, Staubach in the top-10 is a joke.

Tom Landry basically proved that his quarterbacks were nothing more than interchangeable play callers. Danny White stepped right into Staubach's shoes and they didn't miss a beat.

Let’s see. Dallas went to 4 Super Bowls in 8 seasons with Staubach as starting QB and went 2-2. Then White took over for 8 years and they never made the SB. Is that considered never missing a beat?

 

[GROOT]

If you don't think the Steelers teams of the 70s were extremely talented on both sides of the ball and on the sidelines, I dont know how they were a dynasty.   Swann and Stalworth were great.   Franco was great.   That D was probably the best.   The D had more to do with the SB wins that Bradshaw.   It's ok if you think Bradshaw is a better QB than Bree's though.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. 

Didn't say both sides of the ball. The offense had great players but to say EXTREME talent, it's not here. The Steelers offense was extremely talented,  when you go down the personnel on that list people seem to take jabs at the players, saying they were overrated.. Terry Bradshaw passed the eye test when the Steelers needed a play. He did it when it counted in an age of low QB statistics. As for him vs Brees? Switch places and see who is still standing, or actually walking.

 

[GROOT]

My buddy who just turned 30 (I’m 46) was shocked to learn that Collinsworth not only played NFL football, but was surprisingly productive for a time. 

Had 3 pro bowls, And had over 100 yards in a superbowl

 

[Todem]

I’m really surprised how many don’t agree/recognize how freakin redonk Elway was, especially in his prime, in big games/the playoffs with zero running game and questionable talent overall at times.
 

I do believe that we are becoming jaded by the huge numbers of today’s passing games. Between better/faster athletes, rules that do favor offensive players, modern passing schemes, health advancements they help prolong peak form... the numbers today are just nuts.

I went back and checked Montana’s stats a couple weeks back leading up to the top 100 episode, and was underwhelmed. But in the context of the time, and for those who watched him play, one of the elite of the elite in the convo for best ever. And this was a groundbreaking QB in one of the most innovative, talented, and well coached offenses EVER. 
 

As to today, look at the trending numbers for Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan. Huge.  But watching the game, these aren’t elite, winning QBs.   
 

Now, I think that also hurts guys like Brees, who imo is far more than compiling or just numbers... but Brees in 1987 simply couldn’t operate in the way he does today, and the numbers would reflect that, in addition to the schemes and reffing.

So now imagine Dan Marino in todays NFL with the rules the way they are now. Anyone suggesting Marino did not belong in that list is on ####### crack.

No running game, no defense and he was 5X’s the QB over Elway.

Marino made passes that to this day make my jaw drop. You want to talk about threading needles?

Marino is a legendary QB. 
 

Elway had some incredible games and moments but also turned the ball over a heck of a lot and had a bunch of ho hum seasons in his career. Again I think Elway was damn good.

Legendary for a career?
 

No.

 

[SoBeDad]

I’m really surprised how many don’t agree/recognize how freakin redonk Elway was, especially in his prime, in big games/the playoffs with zero running game and questionable talent overall at times.
 

I do believe that we are becoming jaded by the huge numbers of today’s passing games. Between better/faster athletes, rules that do favor offensive players, modern passing schemes, health advancements they help prolong peak form... the numbers today are just nuts.

I went back and checked Montana’s stats a couple weeks back leading up to the top 100 episode, and was underwhelmed. But in the context of the time, and for those who watched him play, one of the elite of the elite in the convo for best ever. And this was a groundbreaking QB in one of the most innovative, talented, and well coached offenses EVER. 
 

As to today, look at the trending numbers for Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan. Huge.  But watching the game, these aren’t elite, winning QBs.   
 

Now, I think that also hurts guys like Brees, who imo is far more than compiling or just numbers... but Brees in 1987 simply couldn’t operate in the way he does today, and the numbers would reflect that, in addition to the schemes and reffing.

Good point about Brees playing in a passer friendly era, which is still evolving, as I saw that Cousins first 2 years in Minnesota are slightly better than Brees' first 2 years in NO a decade ago, stats-wise. 

For all of Elway's greatness and ability, he had flaws. He had accuracy issues early on. He forced the ball alot, made bad decisions, leading to a +1 td-int ratio his first 10 years combined. Marino had a 20-6 and 48-17 td-int ratios his first 2 years, as Elway struggled. In the 1980s there were other QBs besides Marino who also performed much better as a passer than Elway, including Montana, Esiason, Kosar, Everett and Krieg. Elway's running ability and clutchness in big games, and Dan Reeves coaching led to those earlier SB appearances. Reeves' devotion to the running game and good defenses worked against Elway's stats.

Elway had more offensive support in the 90s, the likes of TDavis and Sharpe, and Elway became a better passer under more offensive-minded coaching from Fassel and Shanahan. The numbers show he was a great runner for the time but inconsistent as a passer, although he improved dramatically over time. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

So now imagine Dan Marino in todays NFL with the rules the way they are now. Anyone suggesting Marino did not belong in that list is on ####### crack.

No running game, no defense and he was 5X’s the QB over Elway.

Marino made passes that to this day make my jaw drop. You want to talk about threading needles?

Marino is a legendary QB. 
 

Elway had some incredible games and moments but also turned the ball over a heck of a lot and had a bunch of ho hum seasons in his career. Again I think Elway was damn good.

Legendary for a career?
 

No.

Most would not agree with your take, considering Elway is almost always listed among the best 5-10 quarterbacks to ever play the game. 

I do agree about Marino being legendary.  As I have said before, it is a shame that many hold the lack of a Super Bowl win against him so much, but that is how it goes with quarterbacks, sadly. 

 

[Todem]

Most would not agree with your take, considering Elway is almost always listed among the best 5-10 quarterbacks to ever play the game. 

I do agree about Marino being legendary.  As I have said before, it is a shame that many hold the lack of a Super Bowl win against him so much, but that is how it goes with quarterbacks, sadly. 

I realize there are pundits/sports writers etc who list Elway in their top 10.....but top 5....jesus man. No way. That is crazy IMO. Considering there are no doubt at least 7-8 I would take well before Elway easy. 

But hey, it is opinions. 

And yeah....I agree about the whole Super Bowl crap. Because football is such a team game....Seriously. The sport demands 22 guys 11 on each side of the ball to be able to play in unison and execute. Holding that against a QB is lunacy. Pure lunacy. 

 

[Shawnky]

For total body of work as of today, Brady > Peyton > Favre > Brees

Total body of work includes honors/awards and winning, particularly postseason success, in addition to statistical achievements.

Nah

 

[Koya]

Nah

?

Seems pretty dismissive of you to state considering there’s nothing to back whatever claim this “nah” represents. 

Care to back this up with anything substantive?  Still awaiting your response from a few days back when you said you’d provide some meaningful explanation, curious to see your thoughts. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

I realize there are pundits/sports writers etc who list Elway in their top 10.....but top 5....jesus man. No way. That is crazy IMO. Considering there are no doubt at least 7-8 I would take well before Elway easy. 

But hey, it is opinions. 

And yeah....I agree about the whole Super Bowl crap. Because football is such a team game....Seriously. The sport demands 22 guys 11 on each side of the ball to be able to play in unison and execute. Holding that against a QB is lunacy. Pure lunacy. 

Agreed. And the door swings both ways. Some think Bradshaw or Aikman are among the best ever simply because they have 4/3 rings, and to me that’s madness. You have to look at everything, and even then it’s up to each evaluator as to what factors mean the most and what factors are less important. Championships matter, but they don’t mean everything.