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Elway or Brees - who is the better all-time QB? (1 Viewer)

Who is the better all-time QB?

  • John Elway

    Votes: 40 32.3%

  • Drew Brees

    Votes: 84 67.7%
  • Total voters
    124
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Me, I would have Staubach and Dan Marino off of the list and would have Bart Starr and Terry Bradshaw on the list.  Where I would squeeze Brees in is if he gets another Super Bowl win I might bump Bradshaw for him.  I would certainly do it if he got two more.  
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Bradshaw who only threw 2 more TDs than INTs over Marino who had 170 more TDs than INTs??? 

 
bostonfred said:
It's easier to compare wins than stats across eras. 

In 18 seasons, brees has led his team to a winning record 10 times, gone to the playoffs 8 times, won one conference championship and a superbowl, and had an 8-7 playoff record. 

In 16 seasons, Elway also led his team to a winning record 10 times, but took his team to the playoffs ten times, won 5 conference championships and two superbowls, and had a 14-8 playoff record.  

Brees is still playing and could improve on his team accomplishments but he could win a superbowl this year and lose a superbowl next year and he'd still only be 13-8 in the playoffs with 4 conference championships.  

I understand that it's a team sport, and blah blah trent dilfer, but when we're comparing all time greats that both played hundreds of games for over 15 years each, the sample size is large enough that it's hard to argue that one guy always had better teams around him.  Elway didn't single handedly win his rings but Brees didn't convert a surprise onsides kick in the superbowl either.  Things even out over that many trials. 

Before Brady, there was an argument that Elway was the best of all time.  I don't think you see that argument for Brees, even though he will end up first or second in the career yardage and touchdowns lists.  It's possible that Brees finishes strong and joins that conversation but for me right now he's not there yet.

That's no disrespect for Brees, who overcame adversity, was a better all around guy, and did so much for new Orleans after Katrina. He's a class act and first ballot Hall of Famer. It's just grudging respect for Elway's accomplishments. 
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The AFC was an exceptionally weak conference during a good portion of the Elway era...

 
Anarchy99 said:
Brees has averaged 54 yards per game and almost a yard per attempt better playing indoors. He has similar numbers on turf vs. grass. Not saying he wouldn’t have been a top tier QB, but averaging 307 yards a game playing indoors is nuts. 
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You have to consider that most QBs play better at home than on the road...this will definitely skew that stat.  Brees also played his early career in San Diego in a run first system, which would also skew that statistic....

 
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Rove! said:
Elway passer rating home vs road is 85.4 v 73.9....quite a difference

Brees passer rating home vs road is 103.9 vs 92.6

QBs play better at home...who could have guessed?
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Next they will cherry pick road games below 32 degrees against teams that are not named after an animal.

 
Joe Summer said:
Also, Staubach in the top-10 is a joke.

Tom Landry basically proved that his quarterbacks were nothing more than interchangeable play callers. Danny White stepped right into Staubach's shoes and they didn't miss a beat.
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People often confuse good QBs on great teams for great QBs.

 
Ilov80s said:
Bradshaw who only threw 2 more TDs than INTs over Marino who had 170 more TDs than INTs??? 
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Very true.  Different eras, of course.  And no question Bradshaw could not pass like Don Strock, more less Dan Marino, but he does have four rings.  In the end my top Q.B.'s have to have lead a championship team.  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Very true.  Different eras, of course.  And no question Bradshaw could not pass like Don Strock, more less Dan Marino, but he does have four rings.  In the end my top Q.B.'s have to have lead a championship team.  
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Those SB wins are impressive but he was also leading a team with what, 7 other Hall of Famers? Maybe more?

 
Ilov80s said:
Those SB wins are impressive but he was also leading a team with what, 7 other Hall of Famers? Maybe more?
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IMO, that only helps his case. “The story of the NFL” is about winning teams and HOF players from that team. The dynastic teams. Right or wrong, that’s just how things typically go. 

 
There were 8 other hall of gamers on the 70s Steelers including their rb and 2 wr and their coach. They had a top 5 defense every year. Obviously playing qb was more difficult then, but talk about being carried by a great team to the titles. 

 
FWIW Brees has had late game take the lead drives in the playoffs on the road against Minnesota and San Fran (two of them there), plus another in the Dome Vs the Rams, he just had a defense that gave the game right back in all three (not to mention a certain all time bad call).
He also put up 15 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2013 and 16 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2010. Elway got to play with a top 10 defense 9 times (made the SB in 5), Brees 3, and all three of those playoff seasons the D threw up in the final game (2017, 2013, 2010). He beat Peyton Manning head to head in the Super Bowl, outdoors.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
FWIW Brees has had late game take the lead drives in the playoffs on the road against Minnesota and San Fran (two of them there), plus another in the Dome Vs the Rams, he just had a defense that gave the game right back in all three (not to mention a certain all time bad call).
He also put up 15 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2013 and 16 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2010. Elway got to play with a top 10 defense 9 times (made the SB in 5), Brees 3, and all three of those playoff seasons the D threw up in the final game (2017, 2013, 2010). He beat Peyton Manning head to head in the Super Bowl, outdoors.
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Yep, Brees and Elway both have a head to head Super Bowl win over a QB in the NFL's top 100 (Brees over Peyton, Elway over Favre), and no QB has had worse luck in the playoffs this decade than Brees.  I'd love to see him make another Super Bowl and have a shot at a second ring. 

 
Love both QB's, but one can't compare these guys on the same standard. The QB rule changes gave Drew Brees more advantages, so stats go out the window. I'd take Elway on the eye test. Another thing to consider is adding age to people voting in this poll.

 
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brees supporting cast has been a lot better than Elways.  Until they got their SB teams he had to make due with the three amigos, reeves, and RBs who were 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

 
Koya said:
This isn't that close a call for me. It's Elway.   He WAS their team for a good long time - not close to the weapons nor system that Brees worked under. As noted, the Dome and Brees' home vs. away is big here, while Denver was at Mile High, cold weather, snow, winds and rain.

While Elway got his two rings long after his peak, he was still an essential element - and had he anything close to the running game of T Davis in his prime, you don't have only SB losses. 

Elway had a bigger arm, and his ability to scramble and make a play on his own are nearly unrivaled during his era. 

Basically, put Brees on those Broncos, and they might not even make the SBs in Elways prime (quite well have with Davis, IF weather didn't get in the way). Put Elway on these Saints? OMFG.  Wow.
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This.

 
Ilov80s said:
It doesn’t just help his case, it’s his only case. By no metrics other than wins/SB wins does Bradshaw sniff this list.
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Bradshaw does not belong on this list.   He was a good QB surrounded by extreme talent on both sides of the ball.   

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Elway got to play with a top 10 defense 9 times (made the SB in 5), Brees 3, and all three of those playoff seasons the D threw up in the final game (2017, 2013, 2010). He beat Peyton Manning head to head in the Super Bowl, outdoors.
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The counter argument to this is that if Brees had regularly played with great defenses, he would not likely have any of the all-time rankings he has in accumulated statistics, since he would not likely have attempted nearly as many passes. So the main part of his current top 10 all-time resume would be diminished.

 
The first 10 years of Elway's career were mediocre stats-wise. He was only +1 in TD vs INT during those first 10 years and definitely had accuracy issues and multiple bad games. He turned it around in 1993 after Reeves left, under new coaches Fassel, Gibbs and Shanahan. Coaching is a big part of the stats advantage for Brees. I'm thinking of the improvement Goff showed going from Fisher to McVay.

Brees consistent accuracy in tight windows is something Elway couldn't do, and Elway's mobility and rocket throws is something Brees couldn't do. 

 
JohnnyU said:
Dinging a player because of surrounding talent leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but if I'm going to do it for Aikman and Smith, I have to do it for Bradshaw.
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Not dinging him for it, just pointing it out as a key point when we look at how a guy only 2 more TDs than INTs is considered one of the best ever to play.

 
Joe Summer said:
The correct answer to the question is: Steve Young.
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Young is light years ahead of Brees or Elway for me. Young's 92-94 is the best QB in history in my opinion, only guy with 3 straight MVP's(that weren't shared with another guy) and that was before QB friendly rule changes. He was basically Brees as a passer, with Cam Newton's rushing ability. Young was a rich man's Aaron Rodgers.  I think people forget that the 49ers team Young inherited had very little remaining from the Montana years. 

I often wonder if Montana had been gone sooner what Young's career looks like. I don't think its unreasonable to assume Young wins 1 of Montana's Super Bowls(1989, that team was amazing) and maybe is playing at an even higher level in 91-92 with some more starting experience under his belt.

 
travdogg said:
Young is light years ahead of Brees or Elway for me. Young's 92-94 is the best QB in history in my opinion, only guy with 3 straight MVP's(that weren't shared with another guy) and that was before QB friendly rule changes. He was basically Brees as a passer, with Cam Newton's rushing ability. Young was a rich man's Aaron Rodgers.  I think people forget that the 49ers team Young inherited had very little remaining from the Montana years. 

I often wonder if Montana had been gone sooner what Young's career looks like. I don't think its unreasonable to assume Young wins 1 of Montana's Super Bowls(1989, that team was amazing) and maybe is playing at an even higher level in 91-92 with some more starting experience under his belt.
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Young only won 2 MVP’s. So clearly he did not win 3 in a row. 

 
travdogg said:
Young is light years ahead of Brees or Elway for me. Young's 92-94 is the best QB in history in my opinion, only guy with 3 straight MVP's(that weren't shared with another guy) and that was before QB friendly rule changes. He was basically Brees as a passer, with Cam Newton's rushing ability. Young was a rich man's Aaron Rodgers.  I think people forget that the 49ers team Young inherited had very little remaining from the Montana years. 

I often wonder if Montana had been gone sooner what Young's career looks like. I don't think its unreasonable to assume Young wins 1 of Montana's Super Bowls(1989, that team was amazing) and maybe is playing at an even higher level in 91-92 with some more starting experience under his belt.
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Plus he was left handed. How many of those have we seen at his level?

 
DocHolliday said:
Bradshaw does not belong on this list.   He was a good QB surrounded by extreme talent on both sides of the ball.   
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What EXTREME talent on offense? Were Franco Harris or Lynn Swann EXTREME talents? People seem to say the same thing about them too, that they weren't that great. There are 4  Steelers  in the top 100 of all time, look at who they are.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
FWIW Brees has had late game take the lead drives in the playoffs on the road against Minnesota and San Fran (two of them there), plus another in the Dome Vs the Rams, he just had a defense that gave the game right back in all three (not to mention a certain all time bad call).
He also put up 15 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2013 and 16 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2010. Elway got to play with a top 10 defense 9 times (made the SB in 5), Brees 3, and all three of those playoff seasons the D threw up in the final game (2017, 2013, 2010). He beat Peyton Manning head to head in the Super Bowl, outdoors.
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Excellent points. Everyone keeps pointing to the modern game as a huge advantage for a Brees, while conveniently neglecting the fact did those saints teams that Brees one with largely had mediocre defenses.

Put Elway on some of those Saints teams and I’m not sure they win as many games on his arm. I put Drew Brees on some of those Broncos teams, and he has a much easier time winning with defense.

 
GROOT said:
What EXTREME talent on offense? Were Franco Harris or Lynn Swann EXTREME talents? People seem to say the same thing about them too, that they weren't that great. There are 4  Steelers  in the top 100 of all time, look at who they are.
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Lynn Swann was absolutely an extreme talent.

and as a sidenote, his mother was a counselor at my high school.

 
Elway was the weakest link of those two super bowl offenses, and by a wide margin.  If you treat the O-Line as a unit, the Bronco Super Bowl teams were far better than the Saints at every position.  How people are arguing that Brees had more to work with is insane.  And the 80s Broncos were a lot better than you guys remember, but the AFC was terrible.  There were probably 5 better teams in the NFC those years.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
That doesn’t mean he wasn’t an extreme talent.
 

And Mrs Swan would tan your hide if she heard you badmouthing her son. :lol:  
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Michael Thomas had 145 receptions this year. Swann in his age 27, 28, 29, and 30 seasons COMBINED had 137. Let's pump the brakes some on how extreme Swann was as a talent.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Young only won 2 MVP’s. So clearly he did not win 3 in a row. 
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You are right. For some reason I thought he won in 93 as well. He ought to have, but whatever. The point being, he was better than Elway or Brees, and 1 fewer MVP award than I thought doesn't change that.

GROOT said:
What EXTREME talent on offense? Were Franco Harris or Lynn Swann EXTREME talents? People seem to say the same thing about them too, that they weren't that great. There are 4  Steelers  in the top 100 of all time, look at who they are.
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I'd agree that those Steelers teams were led by their defense. The Steel Curtain, had multiple easy HOF players, in Lambert, Ham, and Greene, and another guy I'd vote for in Donnie Shell, though his contributions came more toward the end of the run. They also had great, but not HOF worthy players in my eyes, in Mel Blount(who is in) and LC Greenwood. 

The offense was much more of a sum of its parts, the only guy I'd call an elite player at his position was Mike Webster. Harris, Bradshaw, Stallworth, and Swann were all very good players, but they were more of a unit than any individual standout. If it were up to me, none of them wold be in the HOF, except for Webster. That said, I'd take Bradshaw over Elway.

Zigg said:
Elway was the weakest link of those two super bowl offenses, and by a wide margin.  If you treat the O-Line as a unit, the Bronco Super Bowl teams were far better than the Saints at every position.  How people are arguing that Brees had more to work with is insane.  And the 80s Broncos were a lot better than you guys remember, but the AFC was terrible.  There were probably 5 better teams in the NFC those years.
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Elway to me is much more akin to a guy like Ben Roethlisberger to me. A very good QB, but never the best, and carried by others to his rings. Both made plays that won said titles, but had several better players around them then they were.

I really don't know how Elway's legacy became what it did.  He had very notable moments(the drive, the whirly-bird, retiring as back-to-back champion) but he also had multiple seasons with more INT's than TD's, and only once led the league in any meaningful statistic, and even then, it was most passing yards in a year that he led in pass attempts, which is less a HOF milestone, and more something Jameis Winston could do. 

Elway won a joke MVP in 87, a season where he was barely one of the top-5 QB's the NFL. How Montana didn't win that year is a mystery to this day. 

 
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Ghost Rider said:
I am seeing a lot of complaining on Twitter (big shock there) about Elway making the NFL's 100 greatest players list over Brees.  While Brees (who I am a big fan of) has the better overall stats, largely because of playing inside and in an era where you cannot touch a WR or breathe on a QB, Elway's greatness almost had to be seen to be believed.  I think some forget that there is more to football that fantasy football numbers. 
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Elway I’d put in the Steve Young bucket. And honestly, I’d have a hard time saying guys like Manning or Brady are better than them. 

Favre is the one I’m confused by. 

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I haven't voted yet - wanna think on it some. But I'd have liked to see what Elway could do in today's game. He was one of the most athletic QBs I've seen and had a howitzer for an arm.
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If Elway played in today's rules, he would have been better than everyone not named Dan Marino.  I am NOT an Elway fan but I grew up watching him and Kelly and Marino and Montana, etc, and having the benefit of the experience to see ALL these guys in the ,set 40 years, I just don't know how he wouldn't have been even more successful than he was(which was a,ready HOF/top100).   Marino, on the other hand, would have been utterly unstoppable.  He does that have the legs Mahommes has, but he could do every passing act Mahommes does except he would have analyzed and released it even quicker and more accurately. 

 
Rove! said:
The AFC was an exceptionally weak conference during a good portion of the Elway era...
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Huh?  Jim Kelly's Bills, Dan Marino, those nasty Browns teams, the scary defenses in the AFC.  The AFC wasn't a weak sister in Elways era, certainly by no measure of the divisional competition the Saints have faced.  People wrongly think of the AFC as being down in a certain stretch during Elways career but it was really the victim of the NFC happening to have some iconic teams and defenses in that period.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Very true.  Different eras, of course.  And no question Bradshaw could not pass like Don Strock, more less Dan Marino, but he does have four rings.  In the end my top Q.B.'s have to have lead a championship team.  
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I can't buy that in entirety because that would mean Trent Dilfer gets consideration that , say, Dan Marino doesn't because Trent "led" a team to a championship.

Bradshaw belongs in a conversation with a great deal of credit, respect, etc, but a LOT of his four rings has something to do with the other players on that team.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
FWIW Brees has had late game take the lead drives in the playoffs on the road against Minnesota and San Fran (two of them there), plus another in the Dome Vs the Rams, he just had a defense that gave the game right back in all three (not to mention a certain all time bad call).
He also put up 15 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2013 and 16 points in the 4th in Seattle in 2010. Elway got to play with a top 10 defense 9 times (made the SB in 5), Brees 3, and all three of those playoff seasons the D threw up in the final game (2017, 2013, 2010). He beat Peyton Manning head to head in the Super Bowl, outdoors.
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In a game where Manning still had a chance to bring his team back and chucked a pick-6 to Tracy Porter. 
 

Remember what the Saints were in the NFL before Brees? I do. Completely changed the course of a franchise. 

 
travdogg said:
You are right. For some reason I thought he won in 93 as well. He ought to have, but whatever. The point being, he was better than Elway or Brees, and 1 fewer MVP award than I thought doesn't change that.
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Fun fact. I actually saw Young play against my future high school back in the day when I was a kid. He didn't look like a future HOFer, although he did run the ball a ton and ended up being named All State.

 
Zigg said:
Elway was the weakest link of those two super bowl offenses, and by a wide margin.  If you treat the O-Line as a unit, the Bronco Super Bowl teams were far better than the Saints at every position.  How people are arguing that Brees had more to work with is insane.  And the 80s Broncos were a lot better than you guys remember, but the AFC was terrible.  There were probably 5 better teams in the NFC those years.
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The AFC was not terrible. Those five better NFC teams just happened to be all time great teams that a,so happened Tobe playing at the same time and overlapping (those miners and bears and Giants and Redskins teams were ALL on the short list of all timers and that's without considering there were guys named Reggie white and Jerome brown floating around )

 
Henry Ford said:
Remember what the Saints were in the NFL before Brees? I do. Completely changed the course of a franchise
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I thought of mentioning that but it’s sort of inexpressible. How do you describe a franchise that never had anything and a fan base that sort of embraced doom as a raison d’etre suddenly finding itself led by a winner, someone who brought hope and success and bound the city to it? He’s the all time leading passing and TD leader, that was completely unimaginable. Iirc before this era the Saints never even had any position players rank in the top 50 all time anything, except maybe Archie Manning who ended with 27K yards lifetime. I just don’t think other fans can relate, and I’m not sure I want to hash it out with anyone who seeks to.

 
Henry Ford said:
In a game where Manning still had a chance to bring his team back and chucked a pick-6 to Tracy Porter. 
 
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Because Reggie Wayne got beat to the spot by Porter and made no effort to break it up.  Great play by Porter, but Wayne killed their chances by playing that moment so soft. 

 
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Danny Abramowicz had a 106 catch season. Tom Dempsey kicked a 63 yard field goal with half a foot. These are the framed pictures of our history without Drew. Archie was arguably the most talented uberstar in college football history, his single game SEC record didn’t get broken until Manziel, and by the time he left he was a teachable lesson. The complete opposite of his sons’ legacy, the noble talent chased all over the green carpet, dragged down, wrecked, eventually kicked out and traded for a tomato can used up lineman by a disregarding Bum Phillips who never saw a pass he liked. That was our Mt Rushmore, maybe add Morton Andersen, a kicker we also pushed out the door. That’s the Tombstone franchise Drew Brees walked into.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I thought of mentioning that but it’s sort of inexpressible. How do you describe a franchise that never had anything and a fan base that sort of embraced doom as a raison d’etre suddenly finding itself led by a winner, someone who brought hope and success and bound the city to it? He’s the all time leading passing and TD leader, that was completely unimaginable. Iirc before this era the Saints never even had any position players rank in the top 50 all time anything, except maybe Archie Manning who ended with 27K yards lifetime. I just don’t think other fans can relate, and I’m not sure I want to hash it out with anyone who seeks to.
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How dare you overlook the Bobby Hebert era.

Shame on you.

 
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