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Josh Gordon value with QB Hoyer injury? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter kanabro
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fbelange
Footballguy
Psh. 2 weeks ago nobody even wanted to start Gordon because Weeden wasnt going to be throwing to him.
Now all of a sudden Weeded is back throwing to him and everyone is worried about his value declining?
I made the mistake of sitting him week 3 and I wont be doing that again. He's starting from here on out. I don't care if Ryan Leaf is their QB
Now all of a sudden Weeded is back throwing to him and everyone is worried about his value declining?
I made the mistake of sitting him week 3 and I wont be doing that again. He's starting from here on out. I don't care if Ryan Leaf is their QB
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
You guys do know that it was Weeden throwing to Cameron in weeks 1 and 2, right? When Cameron had 14 receptions on 20 targets for 203 yards and a TD?
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Honestly Gordon's, nor Cameron's value will change here IMO.
Cameron was doing just fine with Weeden playing QB starting the season. He posted 9/108/1 in week 1 with Weeden playing. I think Weeden's arm is better than Hoyer's and that could be plus for Gordon. Weeden's problem is he hangs on to the ball too long and doesn't have much awareness. After the game last night it was said that Weeden didn't get any reps in practice last week due to the short week so he was playing pretty much blind last night. Norv went back in the gameplan two weeks and was calling plays they and written up for week 1 and 2 for him.
I think with a long week to re-acclimate himself, Weeden should be just fine. Clearly he's not a world beater, but he's serviceable and both Gordon and Cameron should be able to put up solid numbers. This offense doesn't change just because the QB's have changed again... same as it ever was.
ETA: Don't over think this...
Cameron was doing just fine with Weeden playing QB starting the season. He posted 9/108/1 in week 1 with Weeden playing. I think Weeden's arm is better than Hoyer's and that could be plus for Gordon. Weeden's problem is he hangs on to the ball too long and doesn't have much awareness. After the game last night it was said that Weeden didn't get any reps in practice last week due to the short week so he was playing pretty much blind last night. Norv went back in the gameplan two weeks and was calling plays they and written up for week 1 and 2 for him.
I think with a long week to re-acclimate himself, Weeden should be just fine. Clearly he's not a world beater, but he's serviceable and both Gordon and Cameron should be able to put up solid numbers. This offense doesn't change just because the QB's have changed again... same as it ever was.
ETA: Don't over think this...
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
its exactly the same as it was with Hoyer
Dez Bryant had a 22 yard game this year. AJ Green didn't do crap last week. Are you saying that Gordon would not have had a single bad week if Hoyer was in there? And he will now that Wheaton is? LOL When did Hoyer become Peyton Manning? And why couldn't he beat out Wheaton this preseason?
LawFitz
Footballguy
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
Yeah, I have to agree with this. Although Hoyer did look good, arguably better than Weedan ever has, he was also going to have a dud game here and there. It's inevitable.
Honestly, Weedan has a big enough arm to exploit Gordon's strongest attribute and that's all that matters. Weedan isn't Alex Smith, he'll take shots.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Weeden has zero pocket presence and a super slow processor up top. Hoyer looked leaps and bounds better in the 2.125 games he played this year. For the guy asking when Hoyer became Peyton Manning, that's a total straw man. There is a grand canyon between Manning and Weeden. Hoyer didn't bridge that chasm entirely, but did more than enough to shorten the gap.
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KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Weeden or Hoyer, both will/are going to force him the ball.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
Look, I agree. He ends up holding onto the ball too long as well because he's slow to go through his progressions and etc. No denying Hoyer was the superior Browns QB up until the injury.LawFitz said:
Still, I feel very comfortable with Gordon. I mean, I was bullish on Gordon even when it was assumed that Weedan was going to be under center all year so I don't see why that would change now. Maybe his ceiling is slightly capped without Hoyer but all Weedan has to do his throw it up to him and Gordon will do the rest. Again, Weedan can sling it when he has to and that's really all that matters.
Keith Lewis
Footballguy
I can thank the CBS podcast for putting Gordon on my must have list, Berry very high on him too. FBG not at all, they really whiffed on Gordon.
LawFitz
Footballguy
I highly recommend the NFL Rewind subscription on NFL.com for situations like this. Watch Hoyer the last two plus weeks versus Weedon weeks one and two and last night. Hoyer was a huge upgrade.
LawFitz
Footballguy
I'm not saying Gordon or Cameron is worthless with Weeden. Just that both took a legit downgrade last night.
One day you'll actually be a big boy and learn to make your own evaluations. Until then, just blame FBGs when you miss the boat.
LawFitz
Footballguy
The bolded "several times" was my way of defending my position. And this isn't a spell check call out of some random word. You don't even know the guy's name and we're supposed to trust your judgment?Way to defend your position. Once you know you've been owned, there's always the last resort of spell check.LawFitz said:
Keith Lewis
Footballguy
the joke is on the sheep here. I don't follow the advice here at all, I hear it, store it and critique it. I have NEVER owned Ingram, Hillman, Ryan Mathews and many other overhyped busts that fooled all the sheep.
MattFancy
Footballguy
I don't get it. Cameron played with Weeden his 1st 2 games and was setting the world on fire. Sure it was w/o Gordon, but he still was putting up incredible numbers. Why would Weeden all of a sudden not be able to get the ball to him since Gordon is back? Cameron had one bad game and now eeveryone is ready to bail on him. The Bills have been pretty good against defending TEs so far this year. Plus, Weeden was looking for him in the end zone at least twice that I saw. One time Cameron drew a PI and the other Weeden just threw it a little too high.
Same with Gordon, he played all last season with Weeden. Why would his value drop all of a sudden? Especially with a threat like Cameron to draw some attention away from him. If anything, Gordon's value goes up because of Cameron, not who the QB is.
I believe both of them will be fine. Cameron was on an incredible pace and wasn't going to be able to keep averaging 25pts/game. He's still a high end TE1. Gordon will still be a ver good WR3 with WR2 upside.
Same with Gordon, he played all last season with Weeden. Why would his value drop all of a sudden? Especially with a threat like Cameron to draw some attention away from him. If anything, Gordon's value goes up because of Cameron, not who the QB is.
I believe both of them will be fine. Cameron was on an incredible pace and wasn't going to be able to keep averaging 25pts/game. He's still a high end TE1. Gordon will still be a ver good WR3 with WR2 upside.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
And I respectfully disagree. I still view Gordon as a WR2 with WR1 upside.
I'm not sure why it took so long to become apparent to me, but again you are easily one of the worst posters on this board. You routinely add absolutely nothing to conversations and are a raging ##### bag to boot. Why bother?
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
LawFitz
Footballguy
Prior to last night I had Gordon slotted as a low end WR1 ROS, with top 5 upside if things continued to go well for Hoyer.
Now, I see him as a high-end WR2 at best, with the type of week to week floor that will kill me some weeks. Went from uber confident in the kid to fairly nervous.
All JMHO, of course, but clearly I think Weeden is a bum and thought well of Hoyer.
I'm not asking you to trust my judgment. I couldn't care less. You're nobody to me. But when you make terribly uniformed statements, be prepared to back them up. There will be zero drop off from Gordon. It's not Manning getting hurt and Curtis Painter (please spell check that one for me) stepping in. It's the opening day starter returning.The bolded "several times" was my way of defending my position. And this isn't a spell check call out of some random word. You don't even know the guy's name and we're supposed to trust your judgment?Way to defend your position. Once you know you've been owned, there's always the last resort of spell check.LawFitz said:
Wow. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? Seriously, take a moment and read your body of work. Unless you're 14 years-old, you should really ask yourself where it all went wrong.
Zaphod
Two heads are better than one
LOL, that's why the ignore feature is the single greatest feature on this site. I can read right over worthless drivel without it even registering. Granted, a liberal application of said feature can tend to make some 85 page threads very short
LawFitz
Footballguy
Ironic that you're calling out Phenix for being combative and off-putting. Go back and read some of your own posts, buddy.
And stop using the Manning straw man argument.
Weeden <<<<<<<<<< Hoyer <<<<<<<<<< Manning
Hence the downgrade for all Browns offensive players from my perspective. Deny all you want, but fantasy football isn't played in a vacuum. Surrounding situation matters. A lot.
CentralPA
Footballguy
Banger
Footballguy
It does but you are acting as if Hoyer was something special...he had a couple decent games but he's not in the top 2/3 of starting QBs and neither is Weeden. He may be marginally better, maybe not. If he were clearly better, he would've been the starter from the getgo. Gordon did fine last year as a rookie with a year off, no training camp with a rookie throwing him the ball. This year they are both a little older and more comfortable...I really don't think there will be much of a difference at the end of the day.
Everything you say is correct except you're forgetting one important part- the second stringer got hurt last night and the first stringer came in. Yes, Hoyer had two nice games when Weeden was hurt, but he also had the advantage of having Gordon. I'm certainly not bragging up Weeden. I'm just telling you that you are a little overboad on the Hoyer love. He's a career backup. A guy with Josh Gordon's talent isn't going to drastically change going from one average quarterback to another.
My thinking is this. Gordon had 1 big game under Hoyer and one mediocre game. Both were full games by Hoyer, so it is not like he was making Gordon a stud by just being the QB. You could say that Gordon has had 1 good game under each QB, and so has Cameron. Cameron had his big game week 1, and then a 5 for 90 game the next week. A big game with Hoyer in week 3 and then a mediocre game last night with Weeden. Most of Cameron's problems last night can be attributed to great Bills linebackers. They have not been letting TE get off vs them. I really do not think Hoyer would have made any difference with that last night. Maybe he would have caught one more ball had Hoyer been in there, but it most likely would have been a quick hitter. He was covered
FF Wiseguy
Footballguy
So let's assume the drop off isn't going to be significant from Hoyer to Weeden. What are your thoughts on how Gordon will perform ROS?
He's had an average game, a good game, and a great game so far. But they have come against MIN, a banged up CIN secondary, and BUF. He should have good days against DET and GB, but then gets KC, Bal, CIN, PIT, JAX, NE, CHI, NYJ. Pretty tough second half.
If he gets a couple good games in with Weeden, do you try and move him before that stretch? In a league I'm in, Gordon is enough to upgrade Sproles to Charles or McCoy (+ a WR4 or RB flier). I'm scared to move him cause he's been so good, but I feel like after the next couple weeks, he could come back to earth a little, and I want to take advantage while his stock is high.
He's had an average game, a good game, and a great game so far. But they have come against MIN, a banged up CIN secondary, and BUF. He should have good days against DET and GB, but then gets KC, Bal, CIN, PIT, JAX, NE, CHI, NYJ. Pretty tough second half.
If he gets a couple good games in with Weeden, do you try and move him before that stretch? In a league I'm in, Gordon is enough to upgrade Sproles to Charles or McCoy (+ a WR4 or RB flier). I'm scared to move him cause he's been so good, but I feel like after the next couple weeks, he could come back to earth a little, and I want to take advantage while his stock is high.
MattFancy
Footballguy
I think it'll be slight downgrades for both, but I don't think it's that big. I mean going into the season, I didn't see many people not wanting Josh Gordon because Weeden was the QB. And it certainly didn't stop people from talking about how big of a sleeper Cameron could be, even though Weeden was the Week 1 starter. If anything, we know that both Chud and Norv like to utilize the TE.
Resident A
Footballguy
I think Weeden will improve the passing game.
He needs to get back in a groove & stop holding the ball for 11 seconds per play, but he'll be effective. I think much of his struggles early this year were due to having Gordon out. He'll be an upgrade from Hoyer once he gets a full week of practice.
He needs to get back in a groove & stop holding the ball for 11 seconds per play, but he'll be effective. I think much of his struggles early this year were due to having Gordon out. He'll be an upgrade from Hoyer once he gets a full week of practice.
Chaka
Footballguy
Meh. Not like we're talking about Tom Brady here. Weeden has a bigger arm, Gordon is a high YPC WR and Norv runs a stretch the field w/WRs offense. It's particularly nice as Norv offenses focus on the #1 WR and the TE so no worries at all for me.
I would like it if Gordon was a maximum effort every down guy but he wouldn't be the first successful WR to not go all out on every down.
Gvindy
Footballguy
No worries here, Weeden doesnt have the touch Hoyer does, but he was hitting Gordon nicely on those Deep ins, outs and hooks last night. He has a huge arm. My only concern is his pocket awareness, he will kill alot of drives by taking sacks...I think his ability to hit the deepball makes it a wash though.
Khy
Footballguy
Gordon went for 50/800/5 last season with Weeden. I'd say his value is a little bit more than that this season with Weeden now that Cameron is coming on finally. I'll say Gordon finishes the season somewhere around.... 70 receptions, 900 yards, 8 TDs. Still a solid WR2. Hoyer's injury just ruins the real chances of Gordon turning into a every week WR1 this season. Keep in mind, they don't have a super tough passing schedule:
Detroit: Will have to throw all game to keep pace. And their D isn't that good.
@ Green Bay: See above
@ Kansas City: Bad matchup
Baltimore: Middle of the road offense and defense, he can beat anyone they put back there.
@ Cincy: See Baltimore
Pitt: See Baltimore
Jacksonville: Easy matchup
@ New England: You can throw on them and their offense will need to be kept up with, Gronk and hopefully Amendola should be back by then.
Chicago: See Baltimore
@ Jets: Not a great matchup, him vs Cromartie should be fun to watch actually.
@ Pitt: See Pitt
Detroit: Will have to throw all game to keep pace. And their D isn't that good.
@ Green Bay: See above
@ Kansas City: Bad matchup
Baltimore: Middle of the road offense and defense, he can beat anyone they put back there.
@ Cincy: See Baltimore
Pitt: See Baltimore
Jacksonville: Easy matchup
@ New England: You can throw on them and their offense will need to be kept up with, Gronk and hopefully Amendola should be back by then.
Chicago: See Baltimore
@ Jets: Not a great matchup, him vs Cromartie should be fun to watch actually.
@ Pitt: See Pitt
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That sums it up perfectly. Hoyer probably does a better job of keeping drives alive which lends itself to Gordon getting more targets. But Weeden's one redeeming trait is his big arm which is a nice match with Gordon's skill set.
I had Gordon pegged for WR2 with WR1 upside heading into the season with Weeden as his QB. I feel even better about it now that Gordon is showing consistent production and trading away Trent is ultimately going to force them to throw more often.
I think he breaks 1000yds he's a stud.. he already has 300 in 3 games... but I agree completely with you on everything else
scary part is he could have easily had a 80yd TD to start the game off, but the ball was thrown a little low by Hoyer and his knee knocked it out of his hands in stride
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3nOut
Footballguy
At a WR3 price if you drafted wisely.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Regardless of QB Cameron is a TE1 and Gordon is a WR1 (PPR) IMHO.
