Kiffin fired. Really. No, I'm serious (1 Viewer)

[B-Deep]

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

Plenty of blame to go around, and the contrarian in me WANTS to support Al Davis, just because so few are. But his actions have been ridiculous.

As everyone keeps mentioning, the simple fact that he burns through coaches (some of them very good coaches) like he does is VERY telling. Basically, it seems obvious that it is VERY VERY difficult to be a coach in Davis' world. You are held responsible for the team's production, but have very limited say on your team's personnel or even your own staff? Of COURSE Kiffin wasn't too excited to stand up and take responsibility for the defense being run by a guy he wanted to get rid of a year ago. Who would?

Maybe Kiffin did use the Raiders to some degree. Maybe he is a little slimy. But the fact is Davis put himself in the position to be used by running the show the way he does.

Then we have "the letter". The purpose of that letter could not be any more obvious. It's there to support his firing for "cause", and to cover his ###. Just because you write a letter to a guy outlining some things, doesn't make those things true. Maybe some of them are and maybe they aren't, but the letter doesn't mean squat except that Davis intended to fire the guy for a quite a while just didn't want to pay him (whether the money is the issue or the principle is the issue).

And for those who still cling to the thought that Davis really still has his #### together, how can you possibly explain Art Shell 2.0? Art Shell??? Seriously? Is there anyone in the world other than Davis and Shell that thought that was a good idea?

All in all, while Davis may seem reasonably "coherent" in a press conference, he really has done some VERY strange things over the last couple of years, and why would anyone be all that surprised by that? He is a prideful man quickly approaching 80 years old. All jokes aside, a lot of people just simply lose it around that age or even considerably before that. When you combine the age and what comes with it, with a guy who has consistently been a "maverick" throughout his career to begin with, bad things happen.

 

[skillz]

When is Kiffin's press conference? I heard some of the clips from NFL Live where he said that he didn't agree with a lot of what Al was saying and didn't even know where to start rebutting his allegations, and that he felt a bit embarrassed for Al yesterday. I am sure he will get into more specifics later today.

 

[kaso]

I am more confused about this situation then I was when there wasn't anything to read about it.

I am not sure who to believe anymore... So I will turn my attentions to Cable and start hoping he can make some positive progress and limit the impacts felt by the mid-season coaching change.

 

[VTjkru]

My takeaway from reading this thread is that "The Raider Fan" (not 100%, but the hard core that dress up in Halloween customs for NFL games and others that post on message boards) and Al Davis deserve each other. They are more similar than different. Living in the glory of yesteryear, in denial that their franchise is a Dysfunctional Mess and will continue to be one as long as Al Davis has a pulse.

Does Kiffin come out smelling like a rose in this? No. I'm sure that he would have been happy to bail out during the off season. He's uppded his profile and did get his team to play hard and thus I think that he will land in a positive place (either as an NFL O-coordinator or College D1 HC).

That said, can anyone other than the protypical Raider Fan defend:

- Not taking care of this mess during the off season. If Al in his infinite wisdom knew that this was a trainwreck during the offseason how can anyone justify throwing the 2008 season under the bus to save having to pay the lowest paid NFL coach his severance money at the same time he was leading the charge to spend many multiples of that sum of damaged goods talent like Javon Walker

- Creating a climate of dysfunctionality in which only the most desperate of NFL re-tread coaches who can't get an NFL gig or guys that 99.9% of the NFL fans have never heard of before can be seen raising their hands for the Raiders HC job.

- NFL coaches get whacked all the time, sometimes for very "political" reasons. Same with Fortune 100 CEOs. Does it really do the franchise value to conduct such affairs in public, airing all of the entity's dirty laundry for all to see?

Most NFL fans would not be happy if there franchises were run this way, but alas The Raider Fan and Al Davis are two peas in a pod because basically Al Davis created The Raider Fan in his image. You are he.

Raider Fans - You Are HeI had to do it, I envisioned this exact picture in my head when I read that sentence, except it was every fan in that stadium.

 

[PatrickT]

I am more confused about this situation then I was when there wasn't anything to read about it. I am not sure who to believe anymore... So I will turn my attentions to Cable and start hoping he can make some positive progress and limit the impacts felt by the mid-season coaching change.

Which is really all you can do. Having gone thru what Falcon fans went through last year, I feel your pain.

 

[massraider]

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.

He hired young coaches, guys with limited resumes, and he has hired retreads.Every single one of the young coaches he hired, went on to a HC gig somewhere else.

Anyone stating the job is a great stepping stone isn't stating an opinion, it is a fact.

 

[massraider]

My takeaway from reading this thread is that "The Raider Fan" (not 100%, but the hard core that dress up in Halloween customs for NFL games and others that post on message boards) and Al Davis deserve each other. They are more similar than different. Living in the glory of yesteryear, in denial that their franchise is a Dysfunctional Mess and will continue to be one as long as Al Davis has a pulse.

Does Kiffin come out smelling like a rose in this? No. I'm sure that he would have been happy to bail out during the off season. He's uppded his profile and did get his team to play hard and thus I think that he will land in a positive place (either as an NFL O-coordinator or College D1 HC).

That said, can anyone other than the protypical Raider Fan defend:

- Not taking care of this mess during the off season. If Al in his infinite wisdom knew that this was a trainwreck during the offseason how can anyone justify throwing the 2008 season under the bus to save having to pay the lowest paid NFL coach his severance money at the same time he was leading the charge to spend many multiples of that sum of damaged goods talent like Javon Walker

- Creating a climate of dysfunctionality in which only the most desperate of NFL re-tread coaches who can't get an NFL gig or guys that 99.9% of the NFL fans have never heard of before can be seen raising their hands for the Raiders HC job.

- NFL coaches get whacked all the time, sometimes for very "political" reasons. Same with Fortune 100 CEOs. Does it really do the franchise value to conduct such affairs in public, airing all of the entity's dirty laundry for all to see?

Most NFL fans would not be happy if there franchises were run this way, but alas The Raider Fan and Al Davis are two peas in a pod because basically Al Davis created The Raider Fan in his image. You are he.

Nope, not taking care of it during the offseason is not a defensible move.Davis is a mess, and has been. Kiffin, also, it appears, is a bit of a scumbag. A minor point that I felt needed to be made.

And suggesting any group of fans deserves this? Also a scumbag move. I hope your team hires Matt Millen.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Al Davis is a POS. Shocking.

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

 

[mex]

There is a book on the Raider Nation and it is an interesting read, some of those fools that are dressed up and look like idiots are actually very wealthy individuals. Raider fans are a tight group and have gotten a bad rap due to their LA days when it was more about gangsters than fans. We are far from the worst in the league and an Eagles game probably produces 3x the number of arrests than a Raider game. It is a bad time right now to be a Raider fan but once Al croaks we should be okay.

 

[PatrickT]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

 

[roadkill1292]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

Al's relentless attention to his own defense and the ripping of Kiffin came off as petty and backward looking. He's the Big Guy of the franchise. He needs to act the part and take responsibility for his own actions, not toss around documents like he's at an unemployment hearing.

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

Al's relentless attention to his own defense and the ripping of Kiffin came off as petty and backward looking. He's the Big Guy of the franchise. He needs to act the part and take responsibility for his own actions, not toss around documents like he's at an unemployment hearing.

At some point, you need to defend yourself. I assume you must have, at some point in the last year, made the same observation that Kiffin needed to take the high road, and take some responsibility for his poorly performing team and offense. Could I have a link, please?

 

[Wilbur Wood]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

You keep stating that Al Davis has taken the high road and been quiet up until yesterday. That's because Al has had his "Yes Men" leaking all of this information to the press about Kiffin dating back to the "Arkansas" job. All of Al's allegations have been previously "leaked" to the press in way form or another by Al's "Yes Men" which to most is further from the "high road" than actually stating these things for your self. Even Ryan's tirade earlier in the year was scripted by the "Yes Men" and Al still wasn't happy becaue Ryan missed on one of the "talking points" that was suppose to included in Ryan's rant.Enjoy the "Cable Guy" era, as I'm sure that it will be fruitful.

 

[PatrickT]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

 

[PatrickT]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.

However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

 

[belljr]

Let's say ALL that Al says is true.

Why fire him mid-season. Why not be done with Kifflin during the off-season. Why bring this drama on now.

Al Davis just makes bad decisions and has no patience. He'll keep going through coaches, drafting poorly. Is it all Al's fault with this latest drama. Probably not but Al is the main reason that the Raiders are the way they are. These are YOUR PLAYERS COACH THEM!!!! :rollseyes: And I still think the Raiders have improved with Kifflin.

 

[massraider]

Let's say ALL that Al says is true.Why fire him mid-season. Why not be done with Kifflin during the off-season. Why bring this drama on now.Al Davis just makes bad decisions and has no patience. He'll keep going through coaches, drafting poorly. Is it all Al's fault with this latest drama. Probably not but Al is the main reason that the Raiders are the way they are. These are YOUR PLAYERS COACH THEM!!!! :rollseyes: And I still think the Raiders have improved with Kifflin.

I don't disagree with any of that.I made a simple point on page 3. People asked for me to back it up. I did. They then ignored any of my arguments, or didn't respond again.

 

[PatrickT]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.

However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

It is a shot in the dark. It was a response to you wondering how that would work. That's one possibility. I did not state as fact that Al was leaking the info, tho I certainly implied it, and that is a guess on my part as one of many possibilities. The fact that there were front office leaks, however, is not opinion. Every football site in the land has listed as their source, someone within the Raider front office or organization. So, either those reports are categorically false, there is a leak in the FO, or Al is purposefully having stuff leaked. I have no idea which is true, I merely acknowledge the possibility.

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.

However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

It is a shot in the dark. It was a response to you wondering how that would work. That's one possibility. I did not state as fact that Al was leaking the info, tho I certainly implied it, and that is a guess on my part as one of many possibilities. The fact that there were front office leaks, however, is not opinion. Every football site in the land has listed as their source, someone within the Raider front office or organization. So, either those reports are categorically false, there is a leak in the FO, or Al is purposefully having stuff leaked. I have no idea which is true, I merely acknowledge the possibility.

And Al made it clear that Kiffin was leaking stuff.So I have to wonder, if the source got it wrong, repeatedly, who is the more likely source? The front office (Al), which I have to think would actually know if and when Kiffin was getting fired, or the coach, who would have been guessing?

The front office was the leak, but they got it wrong? Really?

 

[GregR_2]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.

However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

I thought you were going to hang up and listen?

 

[massraider]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

I just think you're bending over backwards to defend Al. Lane hasn't been thru 5 owners, but Al's been through 5 coaches. What if none of what Al alleges is true? You discount that possibility pretty quickly. Again, you seem to take Al's allegations as near gospel, especially the Arkansas thing, and I don't think there's any clear evidence Lane was politicking for that job. There's also no evidence on the Mortenson leaking either, it's just Al saying it's so and you pretty much believing it.I guess I'll need to comb thru the raider's threads for Lane's "bashing" of his own team, I just simply haven't heard or seen it (not that I would, necessarily, since I don't follow them, but you'd think if it was THAT bad, it would make a few national headlines).

You're not addressing my point. Al took the high road for over a year, let Kiffin say whatever he wanted. He comes out to give his version of the events, and someone thinks he should take the high road? He's been taking the high road, I haven't seen too many comments applauding him for it. Is he not allowed to defend himself?I think Al is a nightmare, and I am not defending him. I am simply making it clear what kind of a role Kiffin has played here. It is possible to be unhappy with both these guys. Which I am.

Yes, it is possible that Al is not telling all the truth. However, just because Al Davis is Al Davis doesn't make Kiffin any more of a truthful guy. And we have 40 years of Al Davis history, I don't know of too many untruths along the way. Al doesn't lie.

Look at it this way: Al has hired a lot of coaches, and fired alot of them. This isn't the owner that cried wolf. He didn't accuse Turner, White, Bugel or Gruden of leaking information. He didn't slam Gruden for desiring the Tampa job, even though his work wasn't done in Oakland. He just let him go.

As to the Arkansas thing, the rumors came up, Al made no comment, and Kiffin didn't deny anything. Al comes out afterwards, and confirms that Kiffin wanted the gig. Yes, it is possible that Al is mistaken. But with Jerry Jones as one of his best friends in the league, and Kiffin's behavior after the season last year, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that there was fire where this smoke was.

Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?

Don't look now, but you're defending Al. Maybe he didn't make a lot of public comments, but his front office was leaking like a sieve about Lane's imminent firing, and despite your personal opinion that Al deserves to defend himself, the fact of the matter is that he looked bad doing it. It reeked of justification and rationalization, not self-defense, IMO. Maybe he couldn't have gotten a fair shake out of the media or fans no matter what he did, but then, he helped create that environment.

For you and Wilbur Wood:Are we sure about that? Because if these leaks were coming from the front office, then it seems to me they might have gotten them right. Wasn't it a big laugh here in the Shark Pool, and in this very thread, that the rumors were wrong for more than one week?

But I am supposed to believe that the rumors, that were incorrect, came from Al Davis?

I would love to hear how that works. I'll hang up and listen.

To undermine Kiffin and get him to resign, or goad him into doing something that would cause Al to be able to fire him and look justified in doing so springs to mind.

That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.

However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

I thought you were going to hang up and listen?

I did. He answered. I answered back. This may happen again.

 

[roadkill1292]

Even if every one of Al's allegations are true, he would have been better off taking the high road. His focus on "insubordination" and "dishonesty", whether real or imagined, speaks volumes on the disfunctionality of the Oakland front office.

He'll always find someone willing to coach the team and maybe even stumble onto a fellow with whom he can work. And together they can get the Raiders back up to a level of reasonable competitiveness. But he certainly reduces his odds with each bitter termination.

Say what you want about who's fault it is, make the senile jokes, etc., but this is 100% true. Even Blank didn't mow down Petrino to this level, and it was much more clear who shouldered the lion's share of the blame there. Even if he's right, he comes off looking like the bitter bad guy.

Not a good posting at all.Blank didn't need to make any comments, it was quite obvious what kind of guy Petrino was.

If even half of what Al Davis alleges was true, then Kiffin is a five-star Ahole.

Let's assume for a moment that everything Al said is true. Or close enough. According to Al, he drew up the resignation letter because Kiffin was looking to leave, and had been sniffing around the Arkansas job. According to Al, Kiffin was involved in the signings of Walker and Hall. According to Al, Kiffin has been leaking info, real and false to Mortensen since last December, that has painted Al in a very unflattering light.

Al hasn't said a word publicly since Lane was hired. He comes out once to correct the record, and NOW people think he should "take the high road"? Screw that.

Where was Kiffin and "the high road"? I've not read too much critical about him tearing down his team, coaches, and owner.

Al's relentless attention to his own defense and the ripping of Kiffin came off as petty and backward looking. He's the Big Guy of the franchise. He needs to act the part and take responsibility for his own actions, not toss around documents like he's at an unemployment hearing.

At some point, you need to defend yourself. I assume you must have, at some point in the last year, made the same observation that Kiffin needed to take the high road, and take some responsibility for his poorly performing team and offense. Could I have a link, please?

This assumption would be wrong. I'm addressing the immediate situation only. To get into a pissing match with an employee of his own hiring demeans only himself.

 

[GregR_2]

...That kinda sounds like a 'shot in the dark' guess to me. Which is cool. Opinions are what this place are about.I do find it interesting that you take, as fact, the notion that Al has been leaking stuff to the media. With nothing to back it up, not even an accusation.However, when Al confirms Arkansas rumors (that actually existed, unlike this one), you wonder if perhaps I am not too quick to believe them. You don't see anything wrong there?

I thought you were going to hang up and listen?

I did. He answered. I answered back. This may happen again.

If you hang up and listen, you can't answer back because you hung up. That's why it's called, "hang up and listen".

 

[PatrickT]

And Al made it clear that Kiffin was leaking stuff.

So I have to wonder, if the source got it wrong, repeatedly, who is the more likely source? The front office (Al), which I have to think would actually know if and when Kiffin was getting fired, or the coach, who would have been guessing?

The front office was the leak, but they got it wrong? Really?

Had to snip all the quotes.Part of the grand conspiracy theory was that they "got it wrong" intentionally so that Kiffin would be under constant pressure of reporters asking him about his job status. Or, hell, maybe Al changed his mind a couple of times. But there were leaks, and to think they were coming from Kiffin stretches credulity in my mind.

BTW, I made some points in post 152 that I think you may have missed in replying to this one. Be interested in your take on Peter King's comments.

 

[NoFBinLA]

Have you heard the players campaigning for Lane to keep his job? I haven't.

Nnamdi Asomugha (I believe it was him) was on NFLN yesterday and said there was no lockerroom division and as a whole the players wanted Kiff to stay.As for coming out and campaigning to keep the guy your crazy owner wants to keep - I'm sorry, what surprises you that they didn't? Dude, take off the Silver and Black specs and think this one through. Kiffin is not blameless here but Al is just making crap up and spinning like crazy.EDITED TO ADD - nevermind I see this has already been beaten to death.

 

[renesauz]

Let's take all the he-said, she-said BS out of this for a minute. Forget whether Kiffin was trying to get fired, or was being brow-beat by Davis. Both are trying to make the other into a liar.

So.....let's take a look at history itself.

Published reports about Raider employees afraid to even hang out socially with John Gruden, afraid Al will find out?

Five coaches in six years?

One bizarre FA signing after another? We can't put these on the coaches because it's clear that Al Davis has final say, and often initial say, in these matters.

Al Davis is an egomaniac and a control freak, as evidance by a long history and body of actions before most of us even knew who Lane Kiffin was. It is abundantly clear that in the Raiders organization, he will brook no disagreement. Loyalty is judged primarily on how often you agree with him.

IMO...it's almst immaterial whether most of Al's allegations are even true at this point, because who in their right mind wouldn't want to find a way out of uch a dysfunctional organization? Al could be 100% correct in this move, Lane could be lying his butt off, and it wouldn't change the basic fact that he's lost it, and THAT FACT, and that fact alone, is why his organiztion is in dis-array and under constant criticism (both fair and unfair). Those supporting this firing by Al certainly have enough ammunition to justify the firing, but not the long history. The problem starts with Al, not with whoever his coach is, or will be, or was.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

first & foremost i don't think kiffin should have been hired in the first place. it was a mistake & we now have a ####### circus, make that a bigger circus in oaktown than before.

al is a stubborn old *******. but he's not crazy, senile or nuts. has he made mistakes? you better believe it. but this firing isn't one of them. the timing is, but not the act itself. i watched the entire press conference & al took all of the blame & responsibility for the mistakes that have been made over the last 6 years. it killed him to say it, but he he said it without hesitation & he threw no one under the bus. you don't do that in al's world. he was pissed that things have gotten to this point because of the decisions he's made.

& kiffin has been trying to get canned for months. he wasn't loyal to the raiders or al davis. you might not agree with that being all that important, but it is DAMN ####### important to al. all the stupid petty bull-####, the arkansas coaching gig, the senior bowl clothes, the upshaw patch, the time outs in buf, the 76 yard fg, etc. i don't know about you, but i saw all of these things as petulant & done deliberately to piss al davis off. the only other answer is kiffin is an ignorant, obtuse ###, both in football & in life(not wearing the upshaw patch was sooooo stupid), which i don't think he is.

we were in the afc championship game in 00,01, & 02. we've had 6 years of hell. we'll get better. al will die trying. i respect that. i respect the raiders & i'm proud to be a raider fan & i always will be.

The Raiders are a bad football team. Period. They have horrible Management, subpar talent, and horrible coaching. Russell is going to be the bigger bust than Alex Smith. Why?

Because JR doesn't have a Gruden to coach him. I think Kiffen would do a better job than dumba** NoWin would as far as building an offense from within. Davis sucks. He is done. Who cares about blame? The only person you can blame is the Owner, just like fans blame the Fords and Millen, and how I hate John York.

LOL, Davis recites words that his Lawyers prep'd him , and Raiderfan thinks his still is lucent. That's why Davis' brand of crap sells. Because his fanbase is stupid.

so i'm stupid? #### you too. 49er fans are some of the most apathetic fans out there. y'all may as well be from socal.as far as the team, they are/have been a terrible team. i don't & never have denied that. i didn't want JR or DMC. if you look in the raider threads, i was screaming for all to hear, trade down!! please trade down for the love of god!! we didn't. ####### ownership. but i will support what we have because i'm a fan of my team, win lose or draw.

 

[GregR_2]

Comment found elsewhere on the web:

Since when did ESPN start broadcasting DnD tournaments?Yesterday afternoon they had some guy dressed as a zombie talking about how he was going to slay some creature called a "Kiffin"...

 

[Autumn Wind]

As far as the Arkansas rumors, I will say this - I was a member of a certain Raiders message board that has a paid subscriber section. Members of that section are informed of rumors and impending situations sometimes long before the press reports them. Many, not all, of these rumors turn out to be true.

The Kiffin/Arkansas situation was discussed at length on this board last year, so hearing Davis bring it up yesterday was not a surprise to me.

 

[NoFBinLA]

but i will support what we have because i'm a fan of my team, win lose or draw.

See this is why - whether you guys want me to or not - I feel bad for Raiderfan, just as I do for Lionfan (both of them) and so on - I'm a die-hard Jets fan and have watched some horrific choices from ownership or the front office. But I have rooted for them despite that and will do so again. I cheered for USC back in the early nineties when they were so bad they made high school teams look good. You can't help who you love, you know?But you cheer for who you cheer for and hang in there and hope it gets better. I will admit the yelling make you feel better though ineffective though it is. Fact is, the Raiders have potential on that team - they can turn it around. Davis will never butt out so really you need to find a coach who will sit with him and work well together. That's why he went with Shell - I think he felt they could be on the same page. Maybe he thought he could mold Kiffin - who likely came in pretty pumped from a National-Champion 'Aren't-YOu-The-Shiznit' experience to find a reality check waiting with his paycheck.But I think there is potential on this team despite the trainwreck it is right now. Unfortunatley - whether he is in the right or not - the way this played out in the media makes Davis look incredibly cheap and trying to save a few bucks by inventing or blowing out of proportion 'insubordination'. Which is ironic considering how badly he spent his money this off season.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.

so being the head coach of the chargers, the bucs, & the corn huskers(for a while) are bad spots to be in? the old retreads that al put in place as a stop gap measure, don't really count as people using the job as a stepping stone.

 

[NoFBinLA]

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.

so being the head coach of the chargers, the bucs, & the corn huskers(for a while) are bad spots to be in? the old retreads that al put in place as a stop gap measure, don't really count as people using the job as a stepping stone.

I have to agree that this job is now the perfect stepping stone. How you rebound from it is a matter for debate BUT the fact is, it's a tough job for an owner who people perceive as micromanaging, interfering and in some case insane - whether those things are true they are perception. In fact it may be more attractive FOR that very fact.I liken it to certain jobs I have had or sought in the entertainment industry. There are some people who are just terrible individuals but surviving the job, the company or the individual is almost worth as much as the experience of having the job. You can work for a dude who throws crap at interns and everyone knows that if you can survive there - not flourish, just last a while - you can cut it anywhere.Surviving the Raiders right now is a chit in Kiffin's favor. Davis can rant and rave and - as you can see even in this thread - you will never convince many people that he isn't just spinning lies and trying to be cheap. Kiffin is known around the league as a generally good guy and a decent coach - and every person who has worked in the Raiders organization who is not looking to go back is coming out of the woodwork to tell their 'Crazy Al' story which makes Kiff only look more and more like the victim. So yeah I agree - there are tons of people who will take that job as it will open up huge doors for them. I guarantee every one of them feels they can survive the madness and the huge resume bump is worth a few years of suffering.On a side note - nobody has mentioned how upset Kiffin looked talking to NFL Live yesterday. I thought the dude looked really upset. Whether it was genuine or not - and i think it was, but that's just me - he looked stun that everything rolled out the way it did.

 

[AnonymousBob]

I actually think Al Davis had/has some valid points.

look, buddy, if you can't come in here with some stupid, repetitive Al Davis joke, just move along.

I still think Davis is the cryptkeeper and the Raiders will continue to be an inept franchise until he steps down or dies.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I actually think Al Davis had/has some valid points.

look, buddy, if you can't come in here with some stupid, repetitive Al Davis joke, just move along.

I still think Davis is the cryptkeeper and the Raiders will continue to be an inept franchise until he steps down or dies.

nicely done. & i agree with you to a point. but this team is getting better, if cable can be a stable influence & manages to keep the guys playing hard, we get yet another top 10 pick(please, please can we get an o or a d lineman, that's worth half a ####, please) & cable comes back next year(if he does a decent job) we'll win 7-9 games. it's not excellence, but it is respectability.

 

[AnonymousBob]

I actually think Al Davis had/has some valid points.

look, buddy, if you can't come in here with some stupid, repetitive Al Davis joke, just move along.

I still think Davis is the cryptkeeper and the Raiders will continue to be an inept franchise until he steps down or dies.

nicely done. & i agree with you to a point. but this team is getting better, if cable can be a stable influence & manages to keep the guys playing hard, we get yet another top 10 pick(please, please can we get an o or a d lineman, that's worth half a ####, please) & cable comes back next year(if he does a decent job) we'll win 7-9 games. it's not excellence, but it is respectability.

I'm a huge Niners fan and I do wish the team across the bay better fortune than they've had recently. However, I'll believe it when I see it. I think you guys have quite a few quality pieces and have the potential to be a solid franchise very soon. But I'm not going to bet against Al Davis' recent craziness.

 

[massraider]

No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to A) Al is not senile or an idiot. Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.B) This wasn't all his fault. Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him. Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.

You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already). But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed. 2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination. 3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal. 5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?

 

[massraider]

And Al made it clear that Kiffin was leaking stuff.

So I have to wonder, if the source got it wrong, repeatedly, who is the more likely source? The front office (Al), which I have to think would actually know if and when Kiffin was getting fired, or the coach, who would have been guessing?

The front office was the leak, but they got it wrong? Really?

Had to snip all the quotes.Part of the grand conspiracy theory was that they "got it wrong" intentionally so that Kiffin would be under constant pressure of reporters asking him about his job status. Or, hell, maybe Al changed his mind a couple of times. But there were leaks, and to think they were coming from Kiffin stretches credulity in my mind.

BTW, I made some points in post 152 that I think you may have missed in replying to this one. Be interested in your take on Peter King's comments.

Hang on, the leaks coming from Kiffin stretches credulity?Based on what? Why is that hard to believe, but the leaks coming from the front office make more sense?

 

[mr. furley]

in case it hasn't been posted.

got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.

within the last 5 minutes, Michelle Tafoya was reading it word for word on the Tirico & Van Pelt show.

September 12, 2008

Dear Lane:

Over the past months, you have made a number of public statements that

were highly critical of, and designed to embarrass and discredit, this

organization, its players and its coaches. I left you alone during

training camp in hopes that you would cease your immature and

destructive campaign.

However, you continue to make public statements that are critical of the

organization, its players as whole as well as individual players. Such

statements constitute conduct detrimental to the Raiders, and I will no

longer stand silently by while you continue to hurt this organization.

Further, your contract is quite clear that you work "subject to the

direction and supervision of the General Partner" and that the General

Partner has "the exclusive right to do all things, which in its sole

discretion are necessary to maintain and improve the club, the football

organization and their activities."

I realized when I hired you that you were young and inexperienced and

that there would be a learning process for you. Your mistakes on player

personnel and coaches were overlooked based on our patience with you.

But I never dreamt that you would be untruthful in statements to the

press as well as on so many other issues. Your actions are those of a

coach looking to make excuses for not winning, rather than a coach

focused on winning.

For example, with the exception of Gibril Wilson, you were involved in

recruiting all free agents and determining salaries for them and you

were explicit about your desire to sign Javon Walker and DeAngelo Hall

amongst others. All were a must to sign in your eyes, Hall, in

particular, because he played for Greg Knapp in Atlanta and Knapp gave

him high grades. Do not run from that now.

I do realize that you did not want us to draft JaMarcus Russell. He is a

great player. Get over it and coach this team on the field, that is what

you were hired to do. We can win with this team!

In regards to your recent fabrications about the defense, during the

final cuts you made every cut on offense and every cut on defense except

for Wakefield on defense and Wand on offense. Furthermore, during the

game Monday night, Rob played your Cover 2 defense and we got killed on

an approximately 50-yard touchdown pass and an approximately 70-yard

gain that led to a field goal.

You meet every week with the defensive coaches to go over both the past

game and to get a general feel for what will happen during the week in

practice. You have the ability and authority to provide our input during

those meetings and the preparation of the game plan. I do not have

weekly meetings with Rob (Ryan)-you do.

During the week no one has ever told you what to do on either offense or

defense. In addition, no one has ever told you during a game what to do

on either offense or defense and you call every play on offense. During

a game if you want to blitz more, all you have to do is let Rob know

what blitz you want and he will do it.

Although you continue to use the media to express your dissatisfaction

with others, no one has publicly pointed out to you that in 4 preseason

games and one regular season game played this year, your offense has

scored one first half touchdown. That put tremendous pressure on the

defense.

I know that you wanted me to bring your father in to run the defense and

that Monte told me that he wanted to come here even though he was under

contract to Tampa. However, I did not want to tamper with another team.

In any event that was over seven months ago. Do not now also run from

the defense and your responsibilities.

This letter constitutes notice that if you further violate any term of

your contract, in any manner whatsoever, you will be terminated for

cause. I trust that this will not occur.

A.D. Football, Inc.

 

[massraider]

in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.

I posted it. It was actually projected onto a screen behind Al at the PC yesterday.

 

[NoFBinLA]

in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.

I posted it. It was actually projected onto a screen behind Al at the PC yesterday.

I think that every employee and employer should be forced to watch a video highlite reel of the last year involving Kiff and AD as an example of how NOT to conduct oneself in a situation.That screen behind Al was the best.

 

[massraider]

in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.

I posted it. It was actually projected onto a screen behind Al at the PC yesterday.

I think that every employee and employer should be forced to watch a video highlite reel of the last year involving Kiff and AD as an example of how NOT to conduct oneself in a situation.

True dat.

 

[PatrickT]

No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.

You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?

I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.

 

[BassNBrew]

in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.within the last 5 minutes, Michelle Tafoya was reading it word for word on the Tirico & Van Pelt show.September 12, 2008Dear Lane:Over the past months, you have made a number of public statements thatwere highly critical of, and designed to embarrass and discredit, thisorganization, its players and its coaches. I left you alone duringtraining camp in hopes that you would cease your immature anddestructive campaign.However, you continue to make public statements that are critical of theorganization, its players as whole as well as individual players. Suchstatements constitute conduct detrimental to the Raiders, and I will nolonger stand silently by while you continue to hurt this organization.Further, your contract is quite clear that you work "subject to thedirection and supervision of the General Partner" and that the GeneralPartner has "the exclusive right to do all things, which in its solediscretion are necessary to maintain and improve the club, the footballorganization and their activities."I realized when I hired you that you were young and inexperienced andthat there would be a learning process for you. Your mistakes on playerpersonnel and coaches were overlooked based on our patience with you.But I never dreamt that you would be untruthful in statements to thepress as well as on so many other issues. Your actions are those of acoach looking to make excuses for not winning, rather than a coachfocused on winning.For example, with the exception of Gibril Wilson, you were involved inrecruiting all free agents and determining salaries for them and youwere explicit about your desire to sign Javon Walker and DeAngelo Hallamongst others. All were a must to sign in your eyes, Hall, inparticular, because he played for Greg Knapp in Atlanta and Knapp gavehim high grades. Do not run from that now.I do realize that you did not want us to draft JaMarcus Russell. He is agreat player. Get over it and coach this team on the field, that is whatyou were hired to do. We can win with this team!In regards to your recent fabrications about the defense, during thefinal cuts you made every cut on offense and every cut on defense exceptfor Wakefield on defense and Wand on offense. Furthermore, during thegame Monday night, Rob played your Cover 2 defense and we got killed onan approximately 50-yard touchdown pass and an approximately 70-yardgain that led to a field goal.You meet every week with the defensive coaches to go over both the pastgame and to get a general feel for what will happen during the week inpractice. You have the ability and authority to provide our input duringthose meetings and the preparation of the game plan. I do not haveweekly meetings with Rob (Ryan)-you do.During the week no one has ever told you what to do on either offense ordefense. In addition, no one has ever told you during a game what to doon either offense or defense and you call every play on offense. Duringa game if you want to blitz more, all you have to do is let Rob knowwhat blitz you want and he will do it.Although you continue to use the media to express your dissatisfactionwith others, no one has publicly pointed out to you that in 4 preseasongames and one regular season game played this year, your offense hasscored one first half touchdown. That put tremendous pressure on thedefense.I know that you wanted me to bring your father in to run the defense andthat Monte told me that he wanted to come here even though he was undercontract to Tampa. However, I did not want to tamper with another team.In any event that was over seven months ago. Do not now also run fromthe defense and your responsibilities.This letter constitutes notice that if you further violate any term ofyour contract, in any manner whatsoever, you will be terminated forcause. I trust that this will not occur.A.D. Football, Inc.

FYI...i think Moss was traded to the pats for a 4th.

 

[Twilight]

On the lighter side (although admittedly this whole situation is a joke in itself), Shanahan's comments on it are classic.

Paraphrasing what I just saw on ESPN, Shanny said he's jealous of Kiffin. Kiffin was on the job 30 more days than Shanny, while Shanny had 3 more wins. Al must like Lane much better.

 

[B-Deep]

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.

He hired young coaches, guys with limited resumes, and he has hired retreads.Every single one of the young coaches he hired, went on to a HC gig somewhere else.

Anyone stating the job is a great stepping stone isn't stating an opinion, it is a fact.

yesart shell and bill callohan and joe bugle have gone on to become a regular mount rushmore of coachdom. I am sure lane kiffin is chomping at the bit to join that pantheon of greatness