Mass shooting in Lewiston, Maine (1 Viewer)

[Zow]

He was talking about his co-faculty peers. Adult adults.

Wait.... what??

Increasing numbers of people are lacking the coping skills to lead adult lives. This should be readily apparent.

It's not to me. If anything, our current crop of adults are far more equipped to deal with sociological issues than our far more prejudiced and rigid older adults. So, with that in mind, I'm struggling to understand why they need days off at a freaking college (which has to be, from my firsthand experience, one of the least stressful places on the planet).

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

We are on the same page.

I’m pro 2nd as they come but agree we need to put measures into place to prevent crimes like this.

I am asking you and others what measures you would be comfortable with. This is where I struggle too. It feels like we get to the "how did this happen?" phase, then just wait to repeat again.

 

[Manster]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Guys still out there somewhere, they seemingly have no idea. My kids school was closed today and tomorrow and likely onward until he’s found. Beyond frustrating that he shot two places up, jumped in his car and drove to a marina a town away and has been a fart in the wind since.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

Would you take this to any situation? What if somebody posted online something like that?

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

 

[Andy Dufresne]

He was talking about his co-faculty peers. Adult adults.

Wait.... what??

Increasing numbers of people are lacking the coping skills to lead adult lives. This should be readily apparent.

It's not to me. If anything, our current crop of adults are far more equipped to deal with sociological issues than our far more prejudiced and rigid older adults. So, with that in mind, I'm struggling to understand why they need days off at a freaking college (which has to be, from my firsthand experience, one of the least stressful places on the planet).

I think you're confusing lifestyle tolerance with stress tolerance.

 

[Zow]

He was talking about his co-faculty peers. Adult adults.

Wait.... what??

Increasing numbers of people are lacking the coping skills to lead adult lives. This should be readily apparent.

It's not to me. If anything, our current crop of adults are far more equipped to deal with sociological issues than our far more prejudiced and rigid older adults. So, with that in mind, I'm struggling to understand why they need days off at a freaking college (which has to be, from my firsthand experience, one of the least stressful places on the planet).

I think you're confusing lifestyle tolerance with stress tolerance.

No, but I do think there may be some correlation as the former seems to just more sensitive-like (snowflake) behavior where they'd be more likely to struggle with the latter.


But what do I know.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades.

Couldn't disagree more.

I am surrounded by perfectly healthy adult coworkers who Absolutely Will Not Shut Up about much they're struggling with "mental well-being." This won't kick in for several years because we plan this way ahead, but we are going to start baking "mental health days" into our academic calendar so students don't have to sit through five days of class every week. (We get all the federal and state holidays too -- we're not one of those schools where classes are in session on Veterans Day or MLK Day).

These people don't have schizophrenia and they're not going to go on killing sprees, but they're depressed, neurotic, and anxious, and IMO they've mainly whipped themselves into this condition. It was not like this as recently as five years ago. This all changed practically overnight.

Wait, what?

When I was in college (which was a good academic college that required effort) I was maybe in classes 4 hrs. per day and had plenty of free time to study while still spending hours per day playing sports and dating and doing all the wonderful nothing stuff college life offers. I never once remember thinking, "man, this is too much?" I also don't recall it being a huge deal to skip a class here or there.

Have class hours changed or something that a day is a big deal and more days off are needed?

He was talking about his co-faculty peers. Adult adults.

My adult colleagues are driving themselves nuts, but the "mental health days" are actually for students. It's tempting to say "Well, they had a rough go of it during the pandemic" and that's true, but the mental health crisis among college-age students that people are talking about now predates covid.

To address @Zow 's point, I know what you mean. My college years were great. Go to class for a few hours, study for a few hours, play some tennis, have supper with your buddies, hang out, etc. That vibe isn't really there anymore. Even at schools more selective and laid-back than mine (like Macalaster or someplace like that), my understanding is that there's just a lot more widespread anxiety and general social unease than what guys like you and me would remember. Some of it is student loans* and the pressure to land a great job right out of school, but these kids bring a lot of anxiety with them when they arrive. It's sad.

* Except let's be honest -- the Macalaster students are not suffering from economic uncertainty.

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades.

Couldn't disagree more.

I am surrounded by perfectly healthy adult coworkers who Absolutely Will Not Shut Up about much they're struggling with "mental well-being." This won't kick in for several years because we plan this way ahead, but we are going to start baking "mental health days" into our academic calendar so students don't have to sit through five days of class every week. (We get all the federal and state holidays too -- we're not one of those schools where classes are in session on Veterans Day or MLK Day).

These people don't have schizophrenia and they're not going to go on killing sprees, but they're depressed, neurotic, and anxious, and IMO they've mainly whipped themselves into this condition. It was not like this as recently as five years ago. This all changed practically overnight.

Wait, what?

When I was in college (which was a good academic college that required effort) I was maybe in classes 4 hrs. per day and had plenty of free time to study while still spending hours per day playing sports and dating and doing all the wonderful nothing stuff college life offers. I never once remember thinking, "man, this is too much?" I also don't recall it being a huge deal to skip a class here or there.

Have class hours changed or something that a day is a big deal and more days off are needed?

He was talking about his co-faculty peers. Adult adults.

My adult colleagues are driving themselves nuts, but the "mental health days" are actually for students. It's tempting to say "Well, they had a rough go of it during the pandemic" and that's true, but the mental health crisis among college-age students that people are talking about now predates covid.

To address @Zow 's point, I know what you mean. My college years were great. Go to class for a few hours, study for a few hours, play some tennis, have supper with your buddies, hang out, etc. That vibe isn't really there anymore. Even at schools more selective and laid-back than mine (like Macalaster or someplace like that), my understanding is that there's just a lot more widespread anxiety and general social unease than what guys like you and me would remember. Some of it is student loans* and the pressure to land a great job right out of school, but these kids bring a lot of anxiety with them when they arrive. It's sad.

* Except let's be honest -- the Macalaster students are not suffering from economic uncertainty.

Weird.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

When future historians sort through the rubble of our civilization to answer "what happened?" I think the answer will be "The Internet".

 

[parasaurolophus]

Three years ago we had mass riots across the country. Today Jewish people are being told to keep a low profile when they're out in public.

Do you think it's possible to have an honest discussion about gun control without talking about some of the reasons why people feel the need to arm themselves?

I agreee 100% - we absolutely need to understand and discuss why people are irrationally fearful, and how much easy access to firearms contribute to that fear.

Irrationally fearful? You’re trying to understand people and you’re calling them irrational? That doesn’t sound very understanding.

“Easy access to firearms”? Have you ever purchased a firearm?

The violent crime rate in America is 1/2 of what it was when you and I were growing up. People are far safer than they were 35 years ago.

ETA: So yes, people being fearful is irrational.

an overall reduction in crime doesn't mean an overall reduction in every single neighborhood.
In 1990 my hometown wasn't having houses robbed on a regular basis. I remember when two cars got stolen from a car dealership and it was the talk of the town. Just a few years ago some dudes robbed car dealerships in the same week they were caught and released for doing the same thing in the neighboring town. And ultimately led to the sheriff blasting the car dealerships for not properly securing all the keys.

Almost nobody I know locked their doors, we would knock and hear" come in."
Now if you posted on nextdoor your house was robbed you will read many posts asking if the doors were locked. If somebody says no, my god the replies are disgusting.
I also feel like many people, especially somebody like tgunz, should read "Understanding Why Crime Fell in the 1990s: Four Factors that Explain the
Decline and Six that Do Not" I only have the saved PDF so no link, but a search for that name will easily turn it up.

Because the reasons crime went down are now mostly actively being fought against, which could easily explain the recent increases and why people would be wary.

 

[Courtjester]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

 

[3C's]

i bet he had another car where he parked the getaway car. guy could be anywhere

I saw something about him owning a jet ski and his car was ditched at a marina? Nuts. Hopefully they get this guy soon.

Got this blurb from our local paper: Card’s car had been discovered by a boat launch near the Androscoggin River, which connects to the Kennebec, and Card’s 15-foot (4.5-meter) boat remains unaccounted for.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

When future historians sort through the rubble of our civilization to answer "what happened?" I think the answer will be "The Internet".

People our age really got to experience an incredibly interesting time in history, except that it happened gradually and you could have missed it if you weren't paying attention. I graduated from HS in 1990. That might as well have been a thousand years ago. I remember going to the library in person to use the Dewey decimal system to look up stuff that I could photocopy and take back to my dorm to read. You could rent movies on VHS by going to a physical store. I think the Eddie Bauer catalog existed for people who didn't have good department stores, which of course no longer exist. And we all got our news from the same three networks, four if you count PBS. When I started college, I got an email address for the first time but it didn't matter because I didn't know anybody else with email so it was pointless. I had to use a freaking VAX (don't remember what that stood for) to do ordinary least squares regression. Notice how I haven't even mentioned phones or social media. That's still a long way off.

Obviously life is totally different now. I imagine for most of us -- who grew up well-adjusted with lots of bruises and scraped knees -- it's wonderful. It sure is for me. For everybody younger than me it seems to be a nightmare that they can't wake up from.

Edit: Remember the guy who said that the internet would end up being about as consequential as the fax machine? Yeah, it didn't quite work out that way.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

i bet he had another car where he parked the getaway car. guy could be anywhere

I saw something about him owning a jet ski and his car was ditched at a marina? Nuts. Hopefully they get this guy soon.

Got this blurb from our local paper: Card’s car had been discovered by a boat launch near the Androscoggin River, which connects to the Kennebec, and Card’s 15-foot (4.5-meter) boat remains unaccounted for.

Yes, I also heard he owns a boat
It sure sounds like he had a potential escape plan in place

There was also a report of a note found at his dwelling? We don't know what it says but it sounds important the way it was presented.

 

[Doug B]

Lewiston, Maine shooting LIVE: Robert Card’s home swarmed by police as ‘flash bangs’ heard

Heavy law enforcement presence and possible ‘flash bangs’ heard near property belonging to suspect

au.news.yahoo.com

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Eric Rudolph managed to hide in the woods for five years. Of course, this guy probably isn't fully lucid, but still.

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

Yes, legally, it's incredibly complicated as the Constitution calls for a balance between public safety and an individual's guaranteed due process rights (combined, on this issue, with at least some measure to own/possess a firearm) - which is, practically speaking, a really freaking hard balance to strike.

But, so people understand, a large reason we struggle mightily with gun violence in this country is because of the personal protections and freedoms the Constitution offers us in this country versus other countries where they may not have a similar Constitution. So, again purely from a legal perspective, I don't see how the government can implement anything which generates a significant change unless there is some Constitutional Amendment that passes that strongly cuts at one of or all of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments to our Constitution (for all you non-constitutional scholars, these are big ones). And, if not obvious, from a political perspective such a drastic and significant Amendment probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Tl;dr: The Constitution is partly to blame for the government's inability to curtail mass shootings (though I'm not at all suggesting we abolish it).

 

[TLEF316]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Yeah, can't imagine. I would hope they're bringing in the REALLY big guns for that kind of search and not just relying on locals. I'm sure the Maine State police are well-trained, but that just seems like a recipe for disaster.

IMO, that's a military special forces type of operation (given the setting and level of danger). Seems unlikely this guy will be taken alive. Just send in the DEVGRU or Delta guys and be done with it.

 

[Zow]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Yeah, can't imagine. I would hope they're bringing in the REALLY big guns for that kind of search and not just relying on locals. I'm sure the Maine State police are well-trained, but that just seems like a recipe for disaster.

IMO, that's a military special forces type of operation (given the setting and level of danger). Seems unlikely this guy will be taken alive. Just send in the DEVGRU or Delta guys and be done with it.

You'd be surprised how many local law enforcement agencies have military-level weapons and vehicles, or as you called them the "REALLY big guns."

But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[TLEF316]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Yeah, can't imagine. I would hope they're bringing in the REALLY big guns for that kind of search and not just relying on locals. I'm sure the Maine State police are well-trained, but that just seems like a recipe for disaster.

IMO, that's a military special forces type of operation (given the setting and level of danger). Seems unlikely this guy will be taken alive. Just send in the DEVGRU or Delta guys and be done with it.

You'd be surprised how many local law enforcement agencies have military-level weapons and vehicles, or as you called them the "REALLY big guns."

But that's a topic for another thread.

I dont doubt they can bring in some really big and sophisticated equipment. I know law enforcement budgets are often out of control.

I just cant imagine anyone in the Maine law enforcement pyramid is up for the challenge. You can train SWAT scenarios all you want. They just haven't seen anything like this could potentially be. I'm sure the feds are involved, but I'd rather we just throw the best of the best at this guy.

 

[Doug B]

You'd be surprised how many local law enforcement agencies have military-level weapons and vehicles, or as you called them the "REALLY big guns."

I was interpreting “big guns” more as specially-skilled people vs weapons and such.

 

[Zow]

You'd be surprised how many local law enforcement agencies have military-level weapons and vehicles, or as you called them the "REALLY big guns."

I was interpreting “big guns” more as specially-skilled people vs weapons and such.

I got that, too. My post was probably an unnecessary shot at what I deem to be the fiscally irresponsible choice of a lot of local law enforcement agencies militarizing their police forces.

 

[Desert_Power]

Incredible this guy is still on the run.

 

[TLEF316]

Incredible this guy is still on the run.

Totally different setting and circumstances but I still sort of equate it to Boston. Even with the benefit of a high profile event and urban setting (cameras everywhere), it still took like 4 days to track them down

Of course in this case, they ID'd the suspect much quicker. (so theoretically....they have some idea of where to start the search). But this scumbag is much more resourceful than a couple of radicalized kids. Once he gets outside the initial area of search, who knows where he could end up.

 

[1320kid]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

Yes, legally, it's incredibly complicated as the Constitution calls for a balance between public safety and an individual's guaranteed due process rights (combined, on this issue, with at least some measure to own/possess a firearm) - which is, practically speaking, a really freaking hard balance to strike.

But, so people understand, a large reason we struggle mightily with gun violence in this country is because of the personal protections and freedoms the Constitution offers us in this country versus other countries where they may not have a similar Constitution. So, again purely from a legal perspective, I don't see how the government can implement anything which generates a significant change unless there is some Constitutional Amendment that passes that strongly cuts at one of or all of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments to our Constitution (for all you non-constitutional scholars, these are big ones). And, if not obvious, from a political perspective such a drastic and significant Amendment probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Tl;dr: The Constitution is partly to blame for the government's inability to curtail mass shootings (though I'm not at all suggesting we abolish it).

That’s the problem, you’re looking at government for The solution. The constitution does not grant the government any rights, it’s to let them know about our rights that can’t be infringed upon no matter the amendment. A lot of mental issues that have been previously discussed in the thread can and should be tackled at home with the help of parents, friends, community, etc... Society needs to look in the mirror to fix this problem and not ineffective government “solutions”.

 

[BeTheMatch]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Doesn't that seem a little too calculating for a guy hearing voices? I don't know. I guess he could be crazy and smart enough to do all that? Or he's laying dead somewhere after offing himself. I guess we'll hopefully eventually find out.

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

Yes, legally, it's incredibly complicated as the Constitution calls for a balance between public safety and an individual's guaranteed due process rights (combined, on this issue, with at least some measure to own/possess a firearm) - which is, practically speaking, a really freaking hard balance to strike.

But, so people understand, a large reason we struggle mightily with gun violence in this country is because of the personal protections and freedoms the Constitution offers us in this country versus other countries where they may not have a similar Constitution. So, again purely from a legal perspective, I don't see how the government can implement anything which generates a significant change unless there is some Constitutional Amendment that passes that strongly cuts at one of or all of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments to our Constitution (for all you non-constitutional scholars, these are big ones). And, if not obvious, from a political perspective such a drastic and significant Amendment probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Tl;dr: The Constitution is partly to blame for the government's inability to curtail mass shootings (though I'm not at all suggesting we abolish it).

That’s the problem, you’re looking at government for The solution. The constitution does not grant the government any rights, it’s to let them know about our rights that can’t be infringed upon no matter the amendment. A lot of mental issues that have been previously discussed in the thread can and should be tackled at home with the help of parents, friends, community, etc... Society needs to look in the mirror to fix this problem and not ineffective government “solutions”.

I am?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm assuming it's been discussed but this guy is heading straight into a very rugged terrain, lot of water, creeks, etc and apparently he has night goggles, it's such a thick dense wilderness, even drones and infrared could be useless or not as helpful for the police and law enforcement looking for him.

How would you like to be one of the law enforcement on the ground trying to track this guy, it doesn't sound like they are going to sneak up on hm.
Apparently he might have police scanners and could be a step or two ahead of law enforcement up to this point

I'm shocked he got away as easy as he did, surprised they didn't at least have a pretty good idea of where he ran/drove off to. You can't drive gar in this country without being tracked or picked up on a camera somewhere. That's why i think he might be going into the wilderness and take his chances there.

Doesn't that seem a little too calculating for a guy hearing voices? I don't know. I guess he could be crazy and smart enough to do all that? Or he's laying dead somewhere after offing himself. I guess we'll hopefully eventually find out.

I thought about if he's cornered he might take his own life
I think he would have done that already.

 

[culdeus]

Incredible this guy is still on the run.

Totally different setting and circumstances but I still sort of equate it to Boston. Even with the benefit of a high profile event and urban setting (cameras everywhere), it still took like 4 days to track them down

Of course in this case, they ID'd the suspect much quicker. (so theoretically....they have some idea of where to start the search). But this scumbag is much more resourceful than a couple of radicalized kids. Once he gets outside the initial area of search, who knows where he could end up.

FBI is pretty good at figuring this out just by looking at people's phone stuff and search history.

Plus they surely have some secret spy **** we don't know about with face recognition and satellite stuff they can lean on in and be like (oh, yeah we just happened to get a "tip")

 

[1320kid]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

Yes, legally, it's incredibly complicated as the Constitution calls for a balance between public safety and an individual's guaranteed due process rights (combined, on this issue, with at least some measure to own/possess a firearm) - which is, practically speaking, a really freaking hard balance to strike.

But, so people understand, a large reason we struggle mightily with gun violence in this country is because of the personal protections and freedoms the Constitution offers us in this country versus other countries where they may not have a similar Constitution. So, again purely from a legal perspective, I don't see how the government can implement anything which generates a significant change unless there is some Constitutional Amendment that passes that strongly cuts at one of or all of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments to our Constitution (for all you non-constitutional scholars, these are big ones). And, if not obvious, from a political perspective such a drastic and significant Amendment probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Tl;dr: The Constitution is partly to blame for the government's inability to curtail mass shootings (though I'm not at all suggesting we abolish it).

That’s the problem, you’re looking at government for The solution. The constitution does not grant the government any rights, it’s to let them know about our rights that can’t be infringed upon no matter the amendment. A lot of mental issues that have been previously discussed in the thread can and should be tackled at home with the help of parents, friends, community, etc... Society needs to look in the mirror to fix this problem and not ineffective government “solutions”.

I am?

Ah, that I read that as you were, rather than just stating what would need to happen if someone wanted to try for a gov solution.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Someone at his house under arrest. Could be him? Or family?

 

[Phil Elliott]

WGME-13 (NBC) in Portland,ME is reporting they have a home in Bowdoin, surrounded, with police yelling, "come out with your hands up.". There were some sounds like gun shots, about an hour ago. Broadcasting live on their web site.
ETA: using CNN video.
ETA: 911 Meadow Rd... executing a search warrant.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Someone at his house under arrest. Could be him? Or family?

Looks like a false alarm?

 

[Zow]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

I feel like if you say voices are telling you to shoot up a place you should immediately be placed in a psych ward.

The Constitution requires due process and a very heightened burden of proof to involuntary commit somebody. So, no.

Yep........but we want solutions, right? I think if you make threats of a mass shooting you forego your rights for due process.

You think that, sure. But, to my earlier point, the Constitution is paramount in our country trumps thoughts like yours (for good reason but, in a situation like this, possibly with unfortunate consequences).

And this is why I mentioned the ACLU being opposed to Red Flag laws. To me there needs to be a middle ground found somehow. My wife as an educator has a duty to report if she suspects abuse of a child. There has to be a procedure put in place that if a doctor/mental health professional sees a person as a danger to self or others, that a report could be made. However, who would pay for all these individuals to investigate these claims and further not trample all over the accused's HIPAA rights, would be the sticking points to this whole mess.

Yes, legally, it's incredibly complicated as the Constitution calls for a balance between public safety and an individual's guaranteed due process rights (combined, on this issue, with at least some measure to own/possess a firearm) - which is, practically speaking, a really freaking hard balance to strike.

But, so people understand, a large reason we struggle mightily with gun violence in this country is because of the personal protections and freedoms the Constitution offers us in this country versus other countries where they may not have a similar Constitution. So, again purely from a legal perspective, I don't see how the government can implement anything which generates a significant change unless there is some Constitutional Amendment that passes that strongly cuts at one of or all of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments to our Constitution (for all you non-constitutional scholars, these are big ones). And, if not obvious, from a political perspective such a drastic and significant Amendment probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Tl;dr: The Constitution is partly to blame for the government's inability to curtail mass shootings (though I'm not at all suggesting we abolish it).

That’s the problem, you’re looking at government for The solution. The constitution does not grant the government any rights, it’s to let them know about our rights that can’t be infringed upon no matter the amendment. A lot of mental issues that have been previously discussed in the thread can and should be tackled at home with the help of parents, friends, community, etc... Society needs to look in the mirror to fix this problem and not ineffective government “solutions”.

I am?

Ah, that I read that as you were, rather than just stating what would need to happen if someone wanted to try for a gov solution.

I was saying the latter.

 

[HellToupee]

When future historians sort through the rubble of our civilization to answer "what happened?" I think the answer will be "The Internet".

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times

 

[HellToupee]

So the boat is unaccounted for , what about the jetski?

 

[eoMMan]

So this guy had a thing against non-white people? Looks like he killed a bunch of white people…

What we know about the Maine mass shooting victims

Eighteen people were killed and 13 others were injured in mass shootings at a bowling alley and restaurant in Lewiston, Maine on Wednesday night. Here's what we know so far about the victims.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Andy Dufresne]

So this guy had a thing against non-white people? Looks like he killed a bunch of white people…

What we know about the Maine mass shooting victims

Eighteen people were killed and 13 others were injured in mass shootings at a bowling alley and restaurant in Lewiston, Maine on Wednesday night. Here's what we know so far about the victims.

news.yahoo.com

Don't try to make sense out of nonsense.

 

[Todem]

So nothing is really happening at his property…..man.

At some point this guy will make a mistake.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Authorities pulling out from home. Maybe go in the home tomorrow during the day?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

With everyone seemingly owning guns to protect themselves, have any of these shootings had people shooting back? Honest question I dont know the answer to, but you'd think with all the mass shootings, someone would've shot back by now.

Again walking a line here, but if you go to a certain network's website that rhymes with Mox News, there are weekly stories about good guy/gal with a gun stopping a violent crime or defending themselves. If accurate, it happens somewhat frequently.

These are never covered by other MSM outlets because it would fly in the face of the narrative they wish to advance.

Violent crime is down 50% from 1990. That's the data - that's 100% facts. Is your MSM outlet continuing to report that fact, or are they beating you over the head with anecdotes?

If violent crime is down 50%, then no need to enact gun laws. Things are trending in the right direction as they are

 

[(HULK)]

@Ministry of Pain

Just to provide some context to my post this morning about 500 of the 600 "mass shooting" deaths being from the ghetto and not the grocery store/church/school/bowling alley variety:

U.S. Sees Record Number Of Mass Shootings Halfway Through 2023

There have been more than 330 mass shootings so far in 2023, more than any other recorded year.

www.forbes.com

The country is recording its fastest rate of mass shootings in recent history. Among the mass casualty events in the first half of 2023 were back-to-back shootings in California in January. Ten people were killed at a Lunar New Year celebration at a dance studio in Monterey Park, California, in January. A few days later, seven people were killed at two locations in Half Moon Bay, California. An hours-long manhunt for a mass shooter on the campus of Michigan State University left students and staff in lockdown mode in February after a shooter killed three students and critically wounded five others. In March, six people including three children were killed at an elementary school in Nashville after a shooter fired 152 rounds in the school, before being killed by police. A gunman in Louisville, Kentucky, killed five of his co-workers at a bank in April before being shot by police. Another mass shooting in April at a Sweet 16 birthday party in Dadeville, Alabama, left four people dead and more than 30 others injured. Eight people were killed and seven injured after a shooting at the Allen Premium Outlets shopping center outside Dallas in May.

That is 43 killed between January and July in the type of "mass shootings" people picture in their head when they hear the term.

Biden Responds As Dozens Shot In July 4 Mass Shootings

There are more mass shootings in the U.S. on July 4 than any other day of the year, according to data.

www.forbes.com

On Monday night, five people were killed and two children were injured in a mass shooting in Philadelphia that spanned at least three locations, police said—though the motive remains unknown, the suspect is in custody.

In Fort Worth, Texas, three people were killed and eight injured during a mass shooting in a parking lot; one of the 11 victims is a child, according to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

A shooting at a holiday weekend block party in Baltimore left two young adults dead and another 28 people—including 15 children—injured as police continue their search for potential suspects.

That article is a good example of the ghetto "mass shootings" that the media/politicians refer to when they say there have been "record number of mass shootings this year". Ten people were killed in one weekend.


Forbes likely missed a few smaller grocery store/school/church "mass shootings" for the first half of the year and there have probably been a few since July 3 (including the one that just happened in Maine), but that doesn't change the overall point. The "mass shootings" most people get angry over and fear are extremely rare and the majority of them are from a community/demographic that media/politicians/activists would rather ignore.

Why would I care less if a mass shooting occurred in a ghetto than if it occurred in a grocery store? They're equally horrible.

 

[HellToupee]

https://x.com/BigSteve207/status/1717721625745830167?s=20

I figured he was dead somewhere

 

[Terminalxylem]

Mental illness is also not a new thing in the last few decades. Again, it's a bit of both things.

I’m so happy you said that. I agree wholeheartedly. We used to lock them up from society and have doctors poke and prod them. While that probably wasn’t the best solution, handing them, EBT cards, free condos, cell phones, and Internet, and letting them roam the streets with access to everything sane citizens get is demonstrably worse.

I agree there has been a pendulum shift, and maybe it's gone too far.

Where I am going is that it seems like damn near every one of these types of shootings (specifically this, church/mall/school type shooting), after the fact we are left scratching our heads as to why this person has access to guns and why they aren't getting help. Most of these recent ones - here, Buffalo, etc.. have had advanced warnings and clear red flags but nothing was done and there are roadblocks to a solution.

It feels like we ALL can agree - this person was in crisis, needed help, and shouldn't have had guns. Great, now what? Should he have been detained against his will this summer? Often nothing can be done if the patient doesn't volunteer. Should the police have gone and taken his guns once he said he heard voices about shooting up a base? If they did, in Maine without red flags could he have turned around and bought more guns? I'm not claiming to have all the answers here, just asking questions and trying to prod people and see where their thresholds are.

We are on the same page.

I’m pro 2nd as they come but agree we need to put measures into place to prevent crimes like this.

I am asking you and others what measures you would be comfortable with. This is where I struggle too. It feels like we get to the "how did this happen?" phase, then just wait to repeat again.

Despite increasing frequency, these events are still relatively sporadic, and largely unpredictable. IMO, we should focus gun control efforts on the low hanging fruit, firearm suicides - not only are these the number one cause of gun deaths, they also tie into mental health.

This is a great summary of the evidence for gun control. Of note:

For four of the outcomes we studied— defensive gun use, hunting and recreation,mass shootings, and police shootings—we found inconclusive evidence, at best, on the effects of any of the policies. However, these understudied outcomes are often central concerns in gun policy debates. For instance, even though we found that child-access prevention laws have measureable benefits in reducing accidental and intentional self-injuries and deaths, the effects of these laws on defensive gun use—one of the principal objections raised against child-access prevention laws—have not been evaluated rigorously.

 

[Ilov80s]

With everyone seemingly owning guns to protect themselves, have any of these shootings had people shooting back? Honest question I dont know the answer to, but you'd think with all the mass shootings, someone would've shot back by now.

Again walking a line here, but if you go to a certain network's website that rhymes with Mox News, there are weekly stories about good guy/gal with a gun stopping a violent crime or defending themselves. If accurate, it happens somewhat frequently.

These are never covered by other MSM outlets because it would fly in the face of the narrative they wish to advance.

Violent crime is down 50% from 1990. That's the data - that's 100% facts. Is your MSM outlet continuing to report that fact, or are they beating you over the head with anecdotes?

If violent crime is down 50%, then no need to enact gun laws. Things are trending in the right direction as they are

I sort of agree but also disagree. The trend is awesome and the narrative people attach themselves to in this country does not at all capture reality. However, our violent crime is still high. So I don't think a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" strategy makes sense either. I think of it like someone who's blood pressure was 160/90 and then a couple years later it was 140/80. That is awesome, it's moving in the right direction but it's still not where you want it and I would recommend some life changes that have been demonstrated to reduce BP instead of just hoping and waiting until it gets to 120/80.

 

[RG623]

How long this is going with no sightings/leads, I think he killed himself somewhere secluded.