Non-horrible Sandusky thread to discuss PSU sanctions (2 Viewers)

[B-Deep]

The NCAA board of directors gave the president the authority to punish and supported it, doesn't that sort of end the debate on can they do it? Yes they can. If PSU is unhappy they can appeal.

PSU is smarter than a lot of people here and sees without an extreme punishment this is NEVER going to start going away. They want to move past it, a few years of football sucking is a small price to pay to try and get to a place where the name Penn State is not synonymous with child molestation.

They are also rapidly trying to settle the civil cases so the University (which IS more important than any sport or coach) can try and move past this and recover.

Closure.

 

[B-Deep]

The only person from Penn State who's been convicted and is in jail is Jerry Sandusky. A couple others are charged. Maybe they'll be found not guilty, or guilty. Maybe they'll serve some time. At some time in the future. Maybe not.

Acting like the courts have already resolved and repaired all this is just sticking your head in the sand.

Nice strawman

Just curious - if the NCAA came out today and said they were vacating Paterno's wins and did nothing else would you be ok with that? What if Paterno hadn't been fired, hadn't died and was still the PSU head coach - would you be ok with what they did then? I really have no opinion on the penalties so this isn't some attempt at defending one side or the other - I don't really care.

What do you mean by okay with that?

Would you think that the NCAA was within their jurisdiction to make that penalty.**I'm not a lawyer and don't speak lawyerese so let's assume for the moment that I'm not trying to trick you or ask vague questions on purpose

The NCAA doesn't have the power to sanction PSU in any manner whatsoever for what happened. But nationwide moral outrage provides the NCAA with the cover to try to foist unwarranted sanctions upon PSU. If PSU doesn't have the stones to stand up to the NCAA given the social climate I have no problem with that.

The fact that you are saying what the NCAA is doing probably wouldn't hold up in court is even more proof that the NCAA does in fact have tons of power. If they didn't, Penn State would just say no we're not doing anything you say or take them to court. They will do neither because the NCAA has a lot of power, including the power to keep this out of the courts.

The power exercised by the NCAA in this case was not innate. It was solely derived through public outrage. The NCAA is using that power to increase the scope of its powers in the future.

The power of the NCAA is whatever is conferred on it by the presidents of its member universities

 

[cheese]

Back to this...why do you feel this way? Because Joe Paterno didn't win the most games in which he was the head coach fielding a team of players who met the NCAA qualifications for an "eligible player?" OR because you just feel that given this he should have to arbitrarily give up an honor that is, by all accounts, NOT subjective?

"Most wins" is not like a gymnast's score in the olympics, where the French judge can show bias and be subjective. It's like a soccer score...you either scored or you didn't. To me, if the NCAA is going to take away wins, they need to be able to show where the wins should be forefitted b/c of some on-field bias.

I can see this argument. I guess it just depends on how you look at it. Kind of like Pete Rose not being in the HOF. Does integrity matter or not? I can understand the NCAA not wanting Paterno on the top of this list forever, given what happened. I can also understand the folks who say that it should simply be about what happened on the field. Personally, I think integrity should matter, so I'm glad they stripped him of the wins.

I actually made the Pete Rose analogy when talking with friends...Pete Rose isn't in the HOF...which IS a subjective measure, and I do think integrity is one of those measures. It's a hall of greatness as voted on by media/baseball peers, etc. This would have been more like if they took Pete Rose's hit record and said, "We're taking away 1,500 of your career hits." I would have no issue with the NCAA taking JoePa out of it's coaching HOF. That's subjective...do whatever you want. But you can't take wins justly earned just like you can't say Pete Rose suddenly had 1,500 less hits.The NCAA might not want Paterno at the top of that list forever, but he earned those wins...he might have been an enabler, etc...but he won those games as a head coach. The same way Rose might have been a gambler, but he hit the baseball. Records like that shouldn't be about what the governing body "wants." That's what HOF/Coach of the Year/Lifetime Achievement Awards, etc. are for.

In this analogy, it wouldn't have been tossing out an arbitrary 1500 hits. It would be tossing out all the hits after he started betting on baseball. The logic being "if you had gotten caught when you started breaking rules, you would've never gotten those hits".

 

[Wadsworth]

Back to this...why do you feel this way? Because Joe Paterno didn't win the most games in which he was the head coach fielding a team of players who met the NCAA qualifications for an "eligible player?" OR because you just feel that given this he should have to arbitrarily give up an honor that is, by all accounts, NOT subjective?

"Most wins" is not like a gymnast's score in the olympics, where the French judge can show bias and be subjective. It's like a soccer score...you either scored or you didn't. To me, if the NCAA is going to take away wins, they need to be able to show where the wins should be forefitted b/c of some on-field bias.

I can see this argument. I guess it just depends on how you look at it. Kind of like Pete Rose not being in the HOF. Does integrity matter or not? I can understand the NCAA not wanting Paterno on the top of this list forever, given what happened. I can also understand the folks who say that it should simply be about what happened on the field. Personally, I think integrity should matter, so I'm glad they stripped him of the wins.

I actually made the Pete Rose analogy when talking with friends...Pete Rose isn't in the HOF...which IS a subjective measure, and I do think integrity is one of those measures. It's a hall of greatness as voted on by media/baseball peers, etc. This would have been more like if they took Pete Rose's hit record and said, "We're taking away 1,500 of your career hits." I would have no issue with the NCAA taking JoePa out of it's coaching HOF. That's subjective...do whatever you want. But you can't take wins justly earned just like you can't say Pete Rose suddenly had 1,500 less hits.The NCAA might not want Paterno at the top of that list forever, but he earned those wins...he might have been an enabler, etc...but he won those games as a head coach. The same way Rose might have been a gambler, but he hit the baseball. Records like that shouldn't be about what the governing body "wants." That's what HOF/Coach of the Year/Lifetime Achievement Awards, etc. are for.

You can argue that if Paterno does not cover up the rape of a child in the shower of the football team in 2001 after he had knowledge of allegations of a similar incident previously that he would not have been the coach for any wins after that incident. Vacating the wins from 98-01 is tougher to justify, but the NCAA has a record of taking away wins when the team plays with a player(s) that should not have been allowed to play. The same can be said of a coach that should not have been allowed to coach.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

The only person from Penn State who's been convicted and is in jail is Jerry Sandusky. A couple others are charged. Maybe they'll be found not guilty, or guilty. Maybe they'll serve some time. At some time in the future. Maybe not.

Acting like the courts have already resolved and repaired all this is just sticking your head in the sand.

Nice strawman

Just curious - if the NCAA came out today and said they were vacating Paterno's wins and did nothing else would you be ok with that? What if Paterno hadn't been fired, hadn't died and was still the PSU head coach - would you be ok with what they did then? I really have no opinion on the penalties so this isn't some attempt at defending one side or the other - I don't really care.

What do you mean by okay with that?

Would you think that the NCAA was within their jurisdiction to make that penalty.**I'm not a lawyer and don't speak lawyerese so let's assume for the moment that I'm not trying to trick you or ask vague questions on purpose

The NCAA doesn't have the power to sanction PSU in any manner whatsoever for what happened. But nationwide moral outrage provides the NCAA with the cover to try to foist unwarranted sanctions upon PSU. If PSU doesn't have the stones to stand up to the NCAA given the social climate I have no problem with that.

The fact that you are saying what the NCAA is doing probably wouldn't hold up in court is even more proof that the NCAA does in fact have tons of power. If they didn't, Penn State would just say no we're not doing anything you say or take them to court. They will do neither because the NCAA has a lot of power, including the power to keep this out of the courts.

The power exercised by the NCAA in this case was not innate. It was solely derived through public outrage. The NCAA is using that power to increase the scope of its powers in the future.

The power of the NCAA is whatever is conferred on it by the presidents of its member universities

Right. They didn't have the power to do this prior to the member universities agreeing to it (including Penn State).They have now expanded their police power to a place where it has never been exercised (and was only exercised in a knee-jerk, near sighted fashion)

It remains to be seen that now that they've entered the realm, whether they continue to police beyond their original scope.

So, let's review:

The NCAA didn't have the authority to do this

The NCAA gained the authority to do this by agreement

The NCAA has expanded its role to uncharted waters

The NCAA did this in response to great public outcry.

My argument all along was that I didn't think we wanted the NCAA having this kind of power. The actual penalty itself seems fair. I'd love to see the folks on the 'its too much' and the 'its not enough' sides go away.

My (not bigger, but different) concern is how the NCAA continues to wield this new power going forward.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

The power exercised by the NCAA in this case was not innate. It was solely derived through public outrage. The NCAA is using that power to increase the scope of its powers in the future.

 

[CrossEyed]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

 

[Christo]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

 

[CrossEyed]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

Yeah...just like that.

 

[roadkill1292]

The only person from Penn State who's been convicted and is in jail is Jerry Sandusky. A couple others are charged. Maybe they'll be found not guilty, or guilty. Maybe they'll serve some time. At some time in the future. Maybe not.

Acting like the courts have already resolved and repaired all this is just sticking your head in the sand.

Nice strawman

Just curious - if the NCAA came out today and said they were vacating Paterno's wins and did nothing else would you be ok with that? What if Paterno hadn't been fired, hadn't died and was still the PSU head coach - would you be ok with what they did then? I really have no opinion on the penalties so this isn't some attempt at defending one side or the other - I don't really care.

What do you mean by okay with that?

Would you think that the NCAA was within their jurisdiction to make that penalty.**I'm not a lawyer and don't speak lawyerese so let's assume for the moment that I'm not trying to trick you or ask vague questions on purpose

The NCAA doesn't have the power to sanction PSU in any manner whatsoever for what happened. But nationwide moral outrage provides the NCAA with the cover to try to foist unwarranted sanctions upon PSU. If PSU doesn't have the stones to stand up to the NCAA given the social climate I have no problem with that.

The fact that you are saying what the NCAA is doing probably wouldn't hold up in court is even more proof that the NCAA does in fact have tons of power. If they didn't, Penn State would just say no we're not doing anything you say or take them to court. They will do neither because the NCAA has a lot of power, including the power to keep this out of the courts.

The power exercised by the NCAA in this case was not innate. It was solely derived through public outrage. The NCAA is using that power to increase the scope of its powers in the future.

The power of the NCAA is whatever is conferred on it by the presidents of its member universities

Right. They didn't have the power to do this prior to the member universities agreeing to it (including Penn State).They have now expanded their police power to a place where it has never been exercised (and was only exercised in a knee-jerk, near sighted fashion)

It remains to be seen that now that they've entered the realm, whether they continue to police beyond their original scope.

So, let's review:

The NCAA didn't have the authority to do this

The NCAA gained the authority to do this by agreement

The NCAA has expanded its role to uncharted waters

The NCAA did this in response to great public outcry.

My argument all along was that I didn't think we wanted the NCAA having this kind of power. The actual penalty itself seems fair. I'd love to see the folks on the 'its too much' and the 'its not enough' sides go away.

My (not bigger, but different) concern is how the NCAA continues to wield this new power going forward.

The people who are comfortable with this development might be sorry they were one day.

 

[Christo]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

Yeah...just like that.

There is a difference. I can see sports with my own eyes. I don't have to believe it exists.

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

 

[B-Deep]

Much of what the NCAA is and does makes me uncomfortable

this particular event does not increase it much for me

THIS sort of thing should be punished, serving cream cheese with bagels should not.

 

[Maude]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

BINGO! and OUCH!

 

[B-Deep]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

so anything PSU football does cannot be punished? Those places would be hurt if joepa was paying player too right? and that would not be their fault either. anything that harms PSU harms them, so is PSU immune to punishment for anything at all, because ma and pa's nintany grocery may suffer?that is a silly argument

 

[CrossEyed]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

so anything PSU football does cannot be punished? Those places would be hurt if joepa was paying player too right? and that would not be their fault either. anything that harms PSU harms them, so is PSU immune to punishment for anything at all, because ma and pa's nintany grocery may suffer?that is a silly argument

No of course not. But the NCAA doesn't belong in this as this had nothing to do with some kid selling his jersey for a hundred bucks while the university makes millions off him.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

 

[Smack Tripper]

The power exercised by the NCAA in this case was not innate. It was solely derived through public outrage. The NCAA is using that power to increase the scope of its powers in the future.

Once again, and not in a lawyerly gotcha way, how IS precedent established? Do transgressions occur and face judgement or do we as a collective say, this transgression is pretty bad, there outta be a rule....I'm sure we have precedent establishing cases with regard to the NCAA in recent years, perhaps most recently happening with contacting recruits through texting as opposed to previously "conventional" means of contact. I guess simply, does the NCAA respond and judge or do they establish procedure based on perceived transgressions.

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

Like I've been saying, it's all about protecting the football factory. So your interest in watching games on Saturday in the fall isn't affected.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

So what you're saying is PSU has fair weather fans that won't support the team during the bad times?

 

[B-Deep]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

so anything PSU football does cannot be punished? Those places would be hurt if joepa was paying player too right? and that would not be their fault either. anything that harms PSU harms them, so is PSU immune to punishment for anything at all, because ma and pa's nintany grocery may suffer?that is a silly argument

No of course not. But the NCAA doesn't belong in this as this had nothing to do with some kid selling his jersey for a hundred bucks while the university makes millions off him.

so you are ok for all the all those businesses suffering for things like an 18 year old athlete taking money, but if the football program systemically covers up child rapes for 14 years we have to protect the businesses, because the NCAA should not care.that's some logic

 

[CrossEyed]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

What happened to "We Are"? That only applies when the team can go to a bowl?

 

[Idiot Boxer]

Well played NCC

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

If these restrictions essentially make Penn State a Division II football team (or whatever the proper term is these days) how will that affect the Big 10? Will Penn State essentially become the doormat of the Big 10 for the next several years?

losing those scholarships means they will be crushed and a MAC team a Division IAA team for the next 4 years 10 years minimum. Competing against Alabama with 20 less scholarship athletes? GLWAT. This is almost insurmountable.

updatedWelcome to the Football Championship Subdivision!!~@!~@

(FWIW, FCS schools operate with 63 scholarhips. PSU will be rolling with 65).

 

[Christo]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

Kinda like religion.

Like I've been saying, it's all about protecting the football factory. So your interest in watching games on Saturday in the fall isn't affected.

I would watch college football whether or not head coaches had the power to protect a pedophile.

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

so anything PSU football does cannot be punished? Those places would be hurt if joepa was paying player too right? and that would not be their fault either. anything that harms PSU harms them, so is PSU immune to punishment for anything at all, because ma and pa's nintany grocery may suffer?that is a silly argument

No of course not. But the NCAA doesn't belong in this as this had nothing to do with some kid selling his jersey for a hundred bucks while the university makes millions off him.

so you are ok for all the all those businesses suffering for things like an 18 year old athlete taking money, but if the football program systemically covers up child rapes for 14 years we have to protect the businesses, because the NCAA should not care.

that's some logic

Actually no I'm not OK with the completely corrupt system that is the NCAA. But at least that's within their realm of control.

 

[Godsbrother]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

There was no death penalty -- there will still be Penn State football and Beaver stadium will be packed and the parking lots will be full of tailgaters. Hotel rooms will be booked. I don't think this is going to have as much of an impact on the local economy as you think.

 

[GDogg]

The only person from Penn State who's been convicted and is in jail is Jerry Sandusky. A couple others are charged. Maybe they'll be found not guilty, or guilty. Maybe they'll serve some time. At some time in the future. Maybe not.Acting like the courts have already resolved and repaired all this is just sticking your head in the sand.

God forbid there is due process.

The NCAA has no obligation to provide due process.

It does unless the school bends over like PSU did.

Link?No it doesn't. The NCAA is not a governmental actor.

You disagree with the Supreme Court in NCAA v. Tarkanian?

No. But that case is not on point. The issue there was whether the NCAA was subject to the due process requirements of the 14th Amendment which, in turn, subjected the NCAA to sanctions under Section 1983. Tark made the argument that because UNLV cooperated with the NCAA during its investigation and UNLV is a state agency the NCAA became a state actor when it sanctioned him. The SCOTUS found that UNLV's acceptance of the sanctions did not make the NCAA a state actor.Tark did not claim that he was denied due process under NCAA rules.

Sure, it's factually distinguishable, but it is one of the many cases that stand for the point that the NCAA is not a state actor, which is required for due process violations. In each and every case that this issue has come before the courts, the NCAA has been held to not be a state actor. Do you have a link to one that says they are?Don't take this to mean I agree with it. I think they should be held to be a state actor for numerous reasons.

You clearly do not understand the issue. Due process is broader than just due process under the US or State constitutions. Due process is also required when an organization tries to sanction one of its members.

No, I understand the issue completely. They can't act arbitrarily and capriciously and they must follow principles of contract law, which probably provided some semblance of due process.Outside of that, under what rule of law do you think anyone at Penn St. could have challenged the NCAA on a due process theory?

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

What happened to "We Are"? That only applies when the team can go to a bowl?

Get real. If you are winning more people are willing to travel and spend money. It's alumni coming from other places that drive the population of College Station up every Saturday.

 

[Christo]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

So what you're saying is PSU has fair weather fans that won't support the team during the bad times?

What's your point? Every sports team has fair weather fans. Whether it's the Pittsburgh Steelers, PSU or a minor league ice hockey team.

 

[NCCommish]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

There was no death penalty -- there will still be Penn State football and Beaver stadium will be packed and the parking lots will be full of tailgaters. Hotel rooms will be booked. I don't think this is going to have as much of an impact on the local economy as you think.

I'm just relaying the effect it is having today. Not some fictional down the road maybe. But what is happening right now as we type. Maybe it will change but today it's empty rooms that are normally already booked that is the reality.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

incidentally, does it strike anyone else as somewhat tacky that ESPN has chosen to air the Ohio/PSU game as their 12:00 pm feature on opening weekend?

Any other year, I'm not sure that game would command that slot.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

So what you're saying is PSU has fair weather fans that won't support the team during the bad times?

What's your point? Every sports team has fair weather fans. Whether it's the Pittsburgh Steelers, PSU or a minor league ice hockey team.

Something you should have asked yourself about 10 thread hijacks ago

 

[Christo]

God forbid there is due process.

The NCAA has no obligation to provide due process.

It does unless the school bends over like PSU did.

Link?No it doesn't. The NCAA is not a governmental actor.

You disagree with the Supreme Court in NCAA v. Tarkanian?

No. But that case is not on point. The issue there was whether the NCAA was subject to the due process requirements of the 14th Amendment which, in turn, subjected the NCAA to sanctions under Section 1983. Tark made the argument that because UNLV cooperated with the NCAA during its investigation and UNLV is a state agency the NCAA became a state actor when it sanctioned him. The SCOTUS found that UNLV's acceptance of the sanctions did not make the NCAA a state actor.Tark did not claim that he was denied due process under NCAA rules.

Sure, it's factually distinguishable, but it is one of the many cases that stand for the point that the NCAA is not a state actor, which is required for due process violations. In each and every case that this issue has come before the courts, the NCAA has been held to not be a state actor. Do you have a link to one that says they are?Don't take this to mean I agree with it. I think they should be held to be a state actor for numerous reasons.

You clearly do not understand the issue. Due process is broader than just due process under the US or State constitutions. Due process is also required when an organization tries to sanction one of its members.

No, I understand the issue completely. They can't act arbitrarily and capriciously and they must follow principles of contract law, which probably provided some semblance of due process.Outside of that, under what rule of law do you think anyone at Penn St. could have challenged the NCAA on a due process theory?

Why would they have to challenge the NCAA "outside of that"?

 

[B-Deep]

the could they challenge discussion is nice and all, but no

maybe legally they could, but it would have been a ridiculous ide to fight this

 

[Christo]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

Did I miss something? Are they not still playing football at PSU?

Places that rent rooms for football Saturdays are already going empty when they would normally be fully booked. Because the team is going to suck. But I am sure those places can afford to go without the income. Who needs to eat after all?

So what you're saying is PSU has fair weather fans that won't support the team during the bad times?

What's your point? Every sports team has fair weather fans. Whether it's the Pittsburgh Steelers, PSU or a minor league ice hockey team.

Something you should have asked yourself about 10 thread hijacks ago

 

[pollardsvision]

I'd think PSU ticket sales will be just fine, at least for the first year or 2.

This isn't a normal situation where a team just stinks and there's no interest. Those involved with the program now are sympathetic figures that just got walloped by the NCAA. I assume PSU fans will go to games to show their support. Maybe some will make it a point to go because of these sanctions. You know, the whole "We Are" and rallying around the PSU family and all.

By the way, this We Are stuff needs to be retired immediately.

 

[Bonzai]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

When are we just going to admit that sports are an important part of our culture? Why have such a complex about it?

 

[Godsbrother]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

There was no death penalty -- there will still be Penn State football and Beaver stadium will be packed and the parking lots will be full of tailgaters. Hotel rooms will be booked. I don't think this is going to have as much of an impact on the local economy as you think.

I'm just relaying the effect it is having today. Not some fictional down the road maybe. But what is happening right now as we type. Maybe it will change but today it's empty rooms that are normally already booked that is the reality.

If you think Beaver Stadium is going to be empty during football season you don't know very much about Penn State. And where are you getting your info that there are empty rooms? Happy Valley has been a hotbed of activity this past year -- if anything business is booming.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

When are we just going to admit that sports are an important part of our culture? Why have such a complex about it?

Education is an important part of my culture and colleges/universities exist to educate much moreso than play football. But many of the fanboys don't understand that and barely are able to remember that it's a school. I don't understand why those fanboys just don't follow the NFL instead of trying to make college football a NFL-Minors.Most of the Penn State guys that I actually know would have rathered the actual school get damn near destroyed over this before touching their beloved football factory. It's pretty sickening.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

By the way, this We Are stuff needs to be retired immediately.

http://www.whptv.com/media/lib/8/5/4/c/54c60a09-80f7-4e30-ad2e-d4f302891b58/Story.jpg

 

[Bonzai]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

When are we just going to admit that sports are an important part of our culture? Why have such a complex about it?

Education is an important part of my culture and colleges/universities exist to educate much moreso than play football. But many of the fanboys don't understand that and barely are able to remember that it's a school. I don't understand why those fanboys just don't follow the NFL instead of trying to make college football a NFL-Minors.Most of the Penn State guys that I actually know would have rathered the actual school get damn near destroyed over this before touching their beloved football factory. It's pretty sickening.

Whats wrong with going to college to become a professional athlete?

 

[Fat Nick]

If you think Beaver Stadium is going to be empty during football season you don't know very much about Penn State. And where are you getting your info that there are empty rooms? Happy Valley has been a hotbed of activity this past year -- if anything business is booming.

Trust me...if you want a hotel in State College on game day, you're STILL going to have to jump through the hoops (2 night minimum, $300+/night, etc.) or stay way down in Altoona.As for the call to stop the "We Are..." chant, not sure why you have issue with that.

 

[roadkill1292]

I think the fact that the punishment is such a big deal is a symptom of the real problem...sports are just way too important to way too many people.

When are we just going to admit that sports are an important part of our culture? Why have such a complex about it?

I admit it. I'm just working to change it. Otherwise too much power winds up in the wrong hands, which would be just about anybody's, to be truthful.

 

[cheese]

Well no the complaints are about the fact that most of this does nothing to the people at fault. I know who will be punished though. All the businesses and their employees that rely on Penn State football for a living. And at 50 million a year to the local economy I am guessing it will be quite a few. But hey now we know covering up child molestation is bad so we got that going for us.

There was no death penalty -- there will still be Penn State football and Beaver stadium will be packed and the parking lots will be full of tailgaters. Hotel rooms will be booked. I don't think this is going to have as much of an impact on the local economy as you think.

I'm just relaying the effect it is having today. Not some fictional down the road maybe. But what is happening right now as we type. Maybe it will change but today it's empty rooms that are normally already booked that is the reality.

Is it? That would shock me. Someone has to know this answer, but I don't know how to look it up. I'm guessing their crowds on Saturdays are not affected in the short term and maybe not in the long term.

 

[GDogg]

The NCAA has no obligation to provide due process.

It does unless the school bends over like PSU did.

Link?No it doesn't. The NCAA is not a governmental actor.

You disagree with the Supreme Court in NCAA v. Tarkanian?

No. But that case is not on point. The issue there was whether the NCAA was subject to the due process requirements of the 14th Amendment which, in turn, subjected the NCAA to sanctions under Section 1983. Tark made the argument that because UNLV cooperated with the NCAA during its investigation and UNLV is a state agency the NCAA became a state actor when it sanctioned him. The SCOTUS found that UNLV's acceptance of the sanctions did not make the NCAA a state actor.Tark did not claim that he was denied due process under NCAA rules.

Sure, it's factually distinguishable, but it is one of the many cases that stand for the point that the NCAA is not a state actor, which is required for due process violations. In each and every case that this issue has come before the courts, the NCAA has been held to not be a state actor. Do you have a link to one that says they are?Don't take this to mean I agree with it. I think they should be held to be a state actor for numerous reasons.

You clearly do not understand the issue. Due process is broader than just due process under the US or State constitutions. Due process is also required when an organization tries to sanction one of its members.

No, I understand the issue completely. They can't act arbitrarily and capriciously and they must follow principles of contract law, which probably provided some semblance of due process.Outside of that, under what rule of law do you think anyone at Penn St. could have challenged the NCAA on a due process theory?

Why would they have to challenge the NCAA "outside of that"?

Where did I say they would have to do anything "outside of that?" I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is something else you aren't saying that you are assuming I clearly don't understand.I also don't think they'd win on those.

 

[fatness]

PSU is smarter than a lot of people here and sees without an extreme punishment this is NEVER going to start going away. They want to move past it, a few years of football sucking is a small price to pay to try and get to a place where the name Penn State is not synonymous with child molestation.They are also rapidly trying to settle the civil cases so the University (which IS more important than any sport or coach) can try and move past this and recover.

Recognizing that the problems had snowballed way beyond their control, Penn State has done several smart things. - commissioned the Freeh report - kept their hands off the Freeh report and just let it say what it found - negotiated (successfully) with the NCAA and kept their football program from being shut downThey've seen the big picture for awhile now, and have known that getting bogged down in trivial fights (like letting the Paternos or Spanier review/rebut the Freeh report, like challenging the NCAA, etc) were going to cost the school more in the long run in terms of donations, state aid, and reputation, than just getting on with the process of being investigated, punished, and trying to make amends.

 

[Christo]

Where did I say they would have to do anything "outside of that?" I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is something else you aren't saying that you are assuming I clearly don't understand.I also don't think they'd win on those.

I'm saying this is wrong:

The NCAA has no obligation to provide due process.

What did you think I was saying?