Official 2019 Oakland (?) Raiders Thread (1 Viewer)

[Ed Wood]

Alright, a break from the Carr bashing (or should that be crashing?) from me.

Big game. At home. After two stinkers in a row. The odds would say he'll put up a decent to good game. Here's hoping he does. Hopefully the D can keep Henry contained and Carr doesn't spend 35 minutes watching from the sideline.

 

[Chadstroma]

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/stadium/raiders-executive-says-las-vegas-relocation-great-for-courting-free-agents-1908894/

Some good advantages on recruiting FA's coming soon! Going from high taxes, a run down toilet bowl for a stadium with an infield half the year to no state tax, state of the art new facilities with an executive airport next door and a brand new awesome stadium. And throw in a great team culture and committed players with a charismatic coach.

 

[Chaka]

 Icon answered this far better than I ever could!!!!

Except that also appears to be a false narrative, if not for his career certainly since Gruden took over.

 

[Chaka]

Maybe he didn't lose those games but he certainly put fuel on the fire in both. Or in the case of the KC game, he ignited the fire and THEN put fuel on it.

And I'm not sure how a No. 6 defense would keep Carr from throwing bad picks in hostile places. Or at least help him the confine those picks to being something less than backbreakers. He's thrown more TD passes to defenses than he has to his receivers the last two weeks.

Let me clearly state that I am not saying that Carr is an elite QB, or anything more than average over his career. So please don't think that is my point at all.

Now:

You don't think the #6 defense might have influenced being shredded by Sam Darnold and the Jets? Or should Carr go play safety after Renfrow drops a 9 yard completion, that hit him in the hands on 3rd&8 from the Jets 29 and Tyrell drops a 29+ yard, in stride perfect strike from the Raiders 39 on 3rd&12? After the dust settles on those two inexcusable drive killers it was 10-3 and the whole team collapsed, on the road in the rain.

Again, you don't see how the #6 defense may have been a benefit when compared to the #28 defense? Sincerely!

I'm not sure I can believe that.

 

[Chaka]

Agree.  The Jet game was a total team meltdown, but the Chief game Carr was the main goat.  The defense didn't play horribly in the first half and he was given a great running game and put up 0 points in the first half and threw two picks including that game ending pick 6.

Okay, so Carr lost them that game. A game I think we all agree Oakland should have lost.

So, what? Ignore everything else and cut bait?

 

[Chaka]

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/stadium/raiders-executive-says-las-vegas-relocation-great-for-courting-free-agents-1908894/

Some good advantages on recruiting FA's coming soon! Going from high taxes, a run down toilet bowl for a stadium with an infield half the year to no state tax, state of the art new facilities with an executive airport next door and a brand new awesome stadium. And throw in a great team culture and committed players with a charismatic coach.

Moving to Nevada and a gorgeous state-of-the art stadium is going to be a massive selling point to FAs. It's not a matter of if a FA will sign, it's a matter of sifting through the surplus and making the right decisions.

Raiders are going to have the pick-of-the-FA-litter for many years to come. 

It's all about spending wisely now. 

 

[ICON211]

Okay, so Carr lost them that game. A game I think we all agree Oakland should have lost.

So, what? Ignore everything else and cut bait?

I'm not saying Carr is the worst QB in the league.  I just think he is average based on his whole body of work and if there is a QB Mayock/Gruden love in the draft they should take him.

 

[Chaka]

I'm not saying Carr is the worst QB in the league.  I just think he is average based on his whole body of work and if there is a QB Mayock/Gruden love in the draft they should take him.

I don't necessarily disagree but I also think context is very important when evaluating a career.

Carr was mostly average pre-Gruden (terrible rookie year, amazing playoff year & two meh years) but he has unquestionably been getting better under Gruden.

He was already a QB that a great team could win a Super Bowl with (i.e. Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco etc) or even a good team can win multiple Super Bowls with (i.e. Eli Manning, Jim Plunkett). But he has shown far more ability than any of those guys, and several other SB winners.

Again, this is not to say Carr is great or, even better than average but he is unquestionably "good enough" (much better than that low bar IMO but, neither-here-nor-there) and he does not seem to have come close to his ceiling yet.

My only point is that the Raiders have a QB who is, at the very least "good enough" and under a cap friendly deal. So why waste time and resources moving in that direction?

A QB under a rookie contract not named Russell Wilson simply will not win Oakland a Super Bowl before that contract expires and becomes much more of a roadblock to building a sustainable winner.

Again, this is very different than saying Carr is great, good, average or anything else.

 

[Chaka]

I really wonder how many people think Tom Brady or Joe Montana would be the QB we talk about today had they been drafted anywhere else than where they landed? Would Marino be Marino if he were drafted anywhere else than Miami or would he be Bledsoe (or someone similar)?

Is Terry Bradshaw the 3rd best QB all time because he has a 68% win % and four Super Bowl wins? If so, it's news to me because I literally never hear his name mentioned in those conversations.

I am pretty sure Bill Belichick could win a couple games with Carr and after typing that, my new worst nightmare is the Raiders cutting bait on Carr this off-season and then he signs with the Patriots.

 

[Chaka]

That 91 yard TD by Brown was definitely Carr's fault.

 

[Bruno2]

All this Carr talk doesn't mean a thing when you cant play defense. There are literally WRs and TEs running free all over this defense. I know they're depleted, but man, this is terrible!

 

[Chaka]

All this Carr talk doesn't mean a thing when you cant play defense. There are literally WRs and TEs running free all over this defense. I know they're depleted, but man, this is terrible!

Oakland had two opportunities to take a lead early in the 3rd. They ended up punting when Carr took a sack but the D held, forcing Tennessee into, I think their only punt of the day. The offense, and their 20 3rd quarter points scored all season (seriously?) failed to put points on the board. Now? It's 42-21 and counting.

Carr absolutely had opportunities to do more, even though he did a lot already, but there is absolutely zero defense in Oakland and, as much good as I think Gruden has done, where are the halftime adjustments? Is Jason Garrett wearing a Job Gruden mask?

 

[ICON211]

That 91 yard TD by Brown was definitely Carr's fault.

So because the D stinks we are not allowed to evaluate Carr's play?  And I know the game is over, but how do you throw the ball away on fourth and goal???????

 

[Chadstroma]

All this Carr talk doesn't mean a thing when you cant play defense. There are literally WRs and TEs running free all over this defense. I know they're depleted, but man, this is terrible!

Which is a significant part if my point. We have one need on offense and several on defense. If we spend a pick on offense, it should be a top WR unless Mayock thinks the next Rodgers or Peyton is sitting there. Otherwise, grab as many play makers as we can on defense.

 

[Chaka]

So because the D stinks we are not allowed to evaluate Carr's play?  And I know the game is over, but how do you throw the ball away on fourth and goal???????

I am not sure where you got that conclusion from my comment. 

My entire point has been that Carr is being judged for the entirety of the team performance rather than his own work which has been much better than people are giving him credit. I think a lot of that blame has to do with the fact with the rest of the team around Carr, particularly the defense (20th is their best finish since Carr was drafted. 28th going into today) has been pretty damn awful as today's performance seems to have demonstrated once again.

 

[DocHolliday]

I am not sure where you got that conclusion from my comment. 

My entire point has been that Carr is being judged for the entirety of the team performance rather than his own work which has been much better than people are giving him credit. I think a lot of that blame has to do with the fact with the rest of the team around Carr, particularly the defense (20th is their best finish since Carr was drafted. 28th going into today) has been pretty damn awful as today's performance seems to have demonstrated once again.

No one is going to argue that the Raiders D is awful.  Feels like it has been awful for the last 20 years.   Carr doesn't seem like that answer but the Raiders cannot reach for a QB like they reached for a DE this year.   The raiders need, absolutely need, a stud WR and defense.   Just take BPA on D after that WR during the draft.   

 

[Bruno2]

Which is a significant part if my point. We have one need on offense and several on defense. If we spend a pick on offense, it should be a top WR unless Mayock thinks the next Rodgers or Peyton is sitting there. Otherwise, grab as many play makers as we can on defense.

Exactly... Carr is just 1 of 53 plus the coaches, albeit, he plays a very important position obviously. But when you make Ryan Tannehill look like Peyton Manning, you've got bigger issues than Derek Carr being average. 

 

[Chaka]

Exactly... Carr is just 1 of 53 plus the coaches, albeit, he plays a very important position obviously. But when you make Ryan Tannehill look like Peyton Manning, you've got bigger issues than Derek Carr being average. 

I agree with everything you said although I have to point out that what Ryan Tannehill is doing this year is a pretty good argument for why Oakland shouldn't cut bait on Carr.

I mean, jury isn't out on his tenure in Tennessee but we all remember what Tannehill was in Miami. And many of us remember that Gannon was a 12 year vet who washed out with three teams before he landed in the perfect situation in Oakland. Right? 

Carr is about three years younger than Tannehill and six years younger than Gannon was when he signed in Oakland.

 

[Bruno2]

I agree with everything you said although I have to point out that what Ryan Tannehill is doing this year is a pretty good argument for why Oakland shouldn't cut bait on Carr.

I mean, jury isn't out on his tenure in Tennessee but we all remember what Tannehill was in Miami. And many of us remember that Gannon was a 12 year vet who washed out with three teams before he landed in the perfect situation in Oakland. Right? 

Carr is about three years younger than Tannehill and six years younger than Gannon was when he signed in Oakland.

You are absolutely right. Bottom line Carr has 2 or 3 years left in Oakland/Vegas. Who knows what his career trajectory will be. He may be a valuable veteran backup for the rest of his career somewhere else like New York or SF. But he's still young enough to have a resurrection somewhere like say, Denver and kill us twice a year. Wouldn't that be typical for that to happen to this organization...

 

[Chadstroma]

Foster Moreau season ending knee injury 

The hits just keep on coming. 

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Foster Moreau season ending knee injury 

The hits just keep on coming. 

We have become as snake-bitten by injury as the Chargers usually are.

Hoping to see this team hold its head high and compete to try and finish at 8-8.

Next year is looking like it's going to be even more fun than it's been this year. The arrow is still up, boys.

 

[Hankmoody]

Three consecutive meltdowns and two of them against mediocre at best team/QB's.  This is probably the toughest season for me to endure.  We really looked like we were making progress early and even though I knew we were still a long way off on overall talent it looked like we had the effort to stick in there.  Now we're just getting wiped off the field.  Yeah, injuries, and yeah, long process - but ffs I want to see a QB step up and will us to a win.  I want to see a defense that refuses to get their doors blown off.  I want to see an OLine grab someone by the ears and plow them like a porn star. 

 

[Ed Wood]

And I know the game is over, but how do you throw the ball away on fourth and goal???????

Definitely a cringe-worthy moment and not the first time he's done similar. Recall last year he threw a late fourth quarter fourth down pass at Richard's feet. I can honestly say I've never seen another QB do that once, let alone twice. On the bright side that means he doesn't care about his completion percentage (65% at Arrowhead Stadium last four seasons, folks ) but he seems darned determined to keep his interception percentage down.

 

[Ed Wood]

Well, there was grist aplenty for both side of the Carr debate Sunday. First half he was lights out. Second half the lights never came on.
And after that it came to me what I think Carr really is. He's the pretty redhaired girl in your sophomore geometry class who you think you have a shot with. She always greets you with a cheerful smile, laughs at your jokes even when they're lame, and occasionally bends down to tie her shoe and in process shows you a little cleavage. She makes you think there's some potential there. You ask her for a date and she says yes. And then when you move in for a little love and affection, she shoots you down.*
Derek Carr is a tease. Tease--noun: someone who...does something to raise hope or desire but doesn't...give any satisfaction.
*I'm speaking from experience here. Your results hopefully were different.

 

[Ed Wood]

That 91 yard TD by Brown was definitely Carr's fault.

Wait, did he throw another pick six when I wasn't looking?

 

[Chaka]

Wait, did he throw another pick six when I wasn't looking?

Good one. Alas I suspect many won't understand you are entirely, and on every conceivable level, joking.

Still, funny though.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Three consecutive meltdowns and two of them against mediocre at best team/QB's.  This is probably the toughest season for me to endure.  We really looked like we were making progress early and even though I knew we were still a long way off on overall talent it looked like we had the effort to stick in there.  Now we're just getting wiped off the field.  Yeah, injuries, and yeah, long process - but ffs I want to see a QB step up and will us to a win.  I want to see a defense that refuses to get their doors blown off.  I want to see an OLine grab someone by the ears and plow them like a porn star. 

Honestly, there are only so many injuries a team can take before even will alone won't do them any good.

We had steady, ongoing attrition from so many sources -- injury, suspension, sheer utter lunacy -- that by the time we entered Week 12's game against the Jets, which IMO was the negative turning point of our season, we were running on empty. Only to lose Renfrow who was just starting to heat up. After that, this team ran out of any whisper of a fume.

I get the frustration, as it sucks to have any hope at all, and to have it dashed. Honestly I think we all knew way before that game that this team was not built to go deep into the playoffs if we were lucky to get there at all. We are who we are this year.

Next year, however, we are going to be phenomenal.

And in the meantime, even if we have to field the worst team possible -- I mean the most broke-@$$ squad ever to don the colors -- I mean a team so bad it's led by David Carr, backed up by Jamarcus Russell and Todd Marinovich, with Matt Stinchcomb protecting their left side and Robert Gallery in the middle, throwing to Javon Walker while Randy Moss is sitting cross-legged on the hashmark taking the game off -- even with that abominable squad?

We are winning our last game ever in Oakland this weekend.

End of an era.

We may always be the Raiders, but they will always be from Oakland in my heart.

Let's get this one done for the city, the history and legacy of this franchise, and most of all, the fans.

 

[Ed Wood]

Good one. Alas I suspect many won't understand you are entirely, and on every conceivable level, joking.

Still, funny though.

 

[Ed Wood]

Honestly, there are only so many injuries a team can take before even will alone won't do them any good.

We had steady, ongoing attrition from so many sources -- injury, suspension, sheer utter lunacy -- that by the time we entered Week 12's game against the Jets, which IMO was the negative turning point of our season, we were running on empty. Only to lose Renfrow who was just starting to heat up. After that, this team ran out of any whisper of a fume.

I get the frustration, as it sucks to have any hope at all, and to have it dashed. Honestly I think we all knew way before that game that this team was not built to go deep into the playoffs if we were lucky to get there at all. We are who we are this year.

Next year, however, we are going to be phenomenal.

And in the meantime, even if we have to field the worst team possible -- I mean the most broke-@$$ squad ever to don the colors -- I mean a team so bad it's led by David Carr, backed up by Jamarcus Russell and Todd Marinovich, with Matt Stinchcomb protecting their left side and Robert Gallery in the middle, throwing to Javon Walker while Randy Moss is sitting cross-legged on the hashmark taking the game off -- even with that abominable squad?

We are winning our last game ever in Oakland this weekend.

End of an era.

We may always be the Raiders, but they will always be from Oakland in my heart.

Let's get this one done for the city, the history and legacy of this franchise, and most of all, the fans.

I was going to try to put together an all-time Raider team to commemorate the end of an era but found I was totally ill-equipped for the task. Heck, I can't remember if Jim Otto was better than Dave Dalby or vice versa. I guess it would be Otto based on his HOF credentials but my team would probably be too heavy with old-timers...

 

[raidergil]

I was going to try to put together an all-time Raider team to commemorate the end of an era but found I was totally ill-equipped for the task. Heck, I can't remember if Jim Otto was better than Dave Dalby or vice versa. I guess it would be Otto based on his HOF credentials but my team would probably be too heavy with old-timers...

Unfortunately most any 'all-time' team at this point would be old timers - especially on O, which I think is pretty easy: Stabler, Allen, Bo, Casper, Biletnikoff, Branch, Brown, Upshaw, Shell, Otto, Wisnewski

 

[Chaka]

I was going to try to put together an all-time Raider team to commemorate the end of an era but found I was totally ill-equipped for the task. Heck, I can't remember if Jim Otto was better than Dave Dalby or vice versa. I guess it would be Otto based on his HOF credentials but my team would probably be too heavy with old-timers...

Are we sure it wasn't Don Mosebar?

It really may be the most amazing Raider fact of all time that from 1960 through 1994 the Raiders had three centers. Three!

Sure, there were some injury fill-ins but for 34 freaking years the Raiders had three starting centers. That's crazy.

Off the top of my head the only stat/fact from the NFL that is more amazing to me is the fact that the Steelers have had three head coaches since 1969 (Knoll, Cowher &Tomlin). Super crazy.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Unfortunately most any 'all-time' team at this point would be old timers - especially on O, which I think is pretty easy: Stabler, Allen, Bo, Casper, Biletnikoff, Branch, Brown, Upshaw, Shell, Otto, Wisnewski

Would put Todd Christensen in there too for 2-TE sets. What about fullback? As much as I love Jon Ritchie, I think it's a toss-up between Marcel Reese and Zack Crockett. One was a fantastic all-round back, the other a true power short yardage, so might lean Crockett.

Here is the D IMO:

• DE: Greg Townsend (Lyle Alzado honorable mention)
  
• DT: Richard Seymour
  
• DT: Chester McGlockton
  
• DE: Howie Long
  
• LB: Phil Villapiano (Greg Biekert honorable mention)
  
• LB: Rod Martin
  
• LB: Ted Hendricks
  
• CB: Willie Brown
  
• CB: Nnamdi Asomugha
  
• Nickle back: flip that nickel where heads is Mike Haynes, tails is Lester Hayes
  
• S: George Atkinson
  
• S: Jack Tatum
  

ST: Ray Guy, Sean Lechler (Seabass honorable mention). KR: Chris Carr. PR: Desmond Howard. But you could probably just use Tim Brown for both KR/PR. 

 

[raidergil]

Would put Todd Christensen in there too for 2-TE sets. What about fullback? As much as I love Jon Ritchie, I think it's a toss-up between Marcel Reese and Zack Crockett. One was a fantastic all-round back, the other a true power short yardage, so might lean Crockett.

Here is the D IMO:

• DE: Greg Townsend (Lyle Alzado honorable mention)
  
• DT: Richard Seymour
  
• DT: Chester McGlockton
  
• DE: Howie Long
  
• LB: Phil Villapiano (Greg Biekert honorable mention)
  
• LB: Rod Martin
  
• LB: Ted Hendricks
  
• CB: Willie Brown
  
• CB: Nnamdi Asomugha
  
• Nickle back: flip that nickel where heads is Mike Haynes, tails is Lester Hayes
  
• S: George Atkinson
  
• S: Jack Tatum
  

ST: Ray Guy, Sean Lechler (Seabass honorable mention). KR: Chris Carr. PR: Desmond Howard. But you could probably just use Tim Brown for both KR/PR. 

Was kinda just going top 11 so I'd have Allen & Bo in same backfield (of course Marcus wouldn't like that). Millen would definitely get an honorable mention at LB.

Secondary definitely the toughest group to cut down, but I'd have Haynes & Hayes, and CWood over Asomugha.

Have to elevate Seabass as you would need a PK 

 

[SDJohnny]

Would put Todd Christensen in there too for 2-TE sets. What about fullback? As much as I love Jon Ritchie, I think it's a toss-up between Marcel Reese and Zack Crockett. One was a fantastic all-round back, the other a true power short yardage, so might lean Crockett.

Here is the D IMO:

• DE: Greg Townsend (Lyle Alzado honorable mention)
  
• DT: Richard Seymour
  
• DT: Chester McGlockton
  
• DE: Howie Long
  
• LB: Phil Villapiano (Greg Biekert honorable mention)
  
• LB: Rod Martin
  
• LB: Ted Hendricks
  
• CB: Willie Brown
  
• CB: Nnamdi Asomugha
  
• Nickle back: flip that nickel where heads is Mike Haynes, tails is Lester Hayes
  
• S: George Atkinson
  
• S: Jack Tatum
  

ST: Ray Guy, Sean Lechler (Seabass honorable mention). KR: Chris Carr. PR: Desmond Howard. But you could probably just use Tim Brown for both KR/PR. 

Steve Smith was an amazing fullback. Pass protection was all pro level for years.

 

[Ed Wood]

Are we sure it wasn't Don Mosebar?

Haha, that's another reason I didn't try and come up with a team--my crappy memory. I forgot all about Mosebar! He was great too.

 

[Ed Wood]

Steve Smith was an amazing fullback. Pass protection was all pro level for years.

He was and it was terrible what happened to him after his career. ALS since 2002 and still hanging there. And we thought he was tough on the football field. Man...no words.

 

[Ed Wood]

Unfortunately most any 'all-time' team at this point would be old timers - especially on O, which I think is pretty easy: Stabler, Allen, Bo, Casper, Biletnikoff, Branch, Brown, Upshaw, Shell, Otto, Wisnewski

Would put Todd Christensen in there too for 2-TE sets.

Casper vs. Christensen is a TERRIFIC debate!! Numbers are very similar. Christensen with 80 or more catches four years in a row. I still see Casper bowling over Vikings in the Super Bowl and of course the Ghost to the Post.

I don't recall who was the better blocker. I guess I'd go with Casper overall but not by much.

Maybe Waller will be better than both!!

 

[ICON211]

Casper vs. Christensen is a TERRIFIC debate!! Numbers are very similar. Christensen with 80 or more catches four years in a row. I still see Casper bowling over Vikings in the Super Bowl and of course the Ghost to the Post.

I don't recall who was the better blocker. I guess I'd go with Casper overall but not by much.

Maybe Waller will be better than both!!

Christiansen is very underrated.  Doesn't get his due in NFL circles IMO.

 

[Chaka]

Christiansen is very underrated.  Doesn't get his due in NFL circles IMO.

I'm probably not remembering things correctly but wasn't Christiansen the first NFL TE to post a 1,000 yard season?

 

[Chaka]

And absolutely Charles >>>> Nnamdi

 

[ICON211]

I'm probably not remembering things correctly but wasn't Christiansen the first NFL TE to post a 1,000 yard season?

Not sure, but I know he led the league in catches twice.

 

[DocHolliday]

It's nice to look back fondly on the great Raider org, but when the greats are from 30 plus years ago, it's a painful reminder of just how lacking in talent this team has been for way too long.   

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Would put Todd Christensen in there too for 2-TE sets. What about fullback? As much as I love Jon Ritchie, I think it's a toss-up between Marcel Reese and Zack Crockett. One was a fantastic all-round back, the other a true power short yardage, so might lean Crockett.

Here is the D IMO:

• DE: Greg Townsend (Lyle Alzado honorable mention)
  
• DT: Richard Seymour
  
• DT: Chester McGlockton
  
• DE: Howie Long
  
• LB: Phil Villapiano (Greg Biekert honorable mention)
  
• LB: Rod Martin
  
• LB: Ted Hendricks
  
• CB: Willie Brown
  
• CB: Nnamdi Asomugha
  
• Nickle back: flip that nickel where heads is Mike Haynes, tails is Lester Hayes
  
• S: George Atkinson
  
• S: Jack Tatum
  

ST: Ray Guy, Sean Lechler (Seabass honorable mention). KR: Chris Carr. PR: Desmond Howard. But you could probably just use Tim Brown for both KR/PR. 

Some omissions that jump to mind:

DL: Otis Sistrunk, Lyle Alzado, John Matuszak

LB: Monte Johnson

 

[ICON211]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/raiders-last-home-game-ranking-the-10-greatest-moments-from-oaklands-black-hole/

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Some omissions that jump to mind:

DL: Otis Sistrunk, Lyle Alzado, John Matuszak

LB: Monte Johnson

I expanded my list from @raidergil's attempt of just choosing 11 by expanding to a D unit, while still forcing hard choices and thinking about more recent players.

Alzado is 100% a miss in terms of trying to get a guy like McGlockton (who I remember being dominant in the early-mid 90s) a nod. But no question that should be flipped -- Alzado wasn't just a SB champion, mulitple pro/all-pro/all AFC attendee, he also had some comeback player of the year awards, and most importantly, embued the spirit of the Raiders more than Seymour and Chester.

Tooz was more flash than talent - definitely a "read the gameplan by the light of the jukebox" guy so he gets a nod for the spirit, but as a player I never thought he truly stood out. Was almost a better actor than a player, if I'm honest.

I thought of Sistrunk, as he had that iconic image, and a ship and a pro-bowler to boot,  but wouldn't place him above the others in the list so far.

Monte Johnson was one tough dude, playing with a broken verterbrae, but not sure I'd place him above the other LBs I listed in terms of talent and performance.

 

[Chadstroma]

Woodson over Asomugha every day, twice on Sundays and three times on Monday nights.

 

[raidergil]

I expanded my list from @raidergil's attempt of just choosing 11 by expanding to a D unit, while still forcing hard choices and thinking about more recent players.

Alzado is 100% a miss in terms of trying to get a guy like McGlockton (who I remember being dominant in the early-mid 90s) a nod. But no question that should be flipped -- Alzado wasn't just a SB champion, mulitple pro/all-pro/all AFC attendee, he also had some comeback player of the year awards, and most importantly, embued the spirit of the Raiders more than Seymour and Chester.

Tooz was more flash than talent - definitely a "read the gameplan by the light of the jukebox" guy so he gets a nod for the spirit, but as a player I never thought he truly stood out. Was almost a better actor than a player, if I'm honest.

I thought of Sistrunk, as he had that iconic image, and a ship and a pro-bowler to boot,  but wouldn't place him above the others in the list so far.

Monte Johnson was one tough dude, playing with a broken verterbrae, but not sure I'd place him above the other LBs I listed in terms of talent and performance.

Yea, take a moment to think about it & you realize guys you missed. Ben Davidson was an iconic early Raider. And Henry Lawrence needs to be on that starting OL - 12 yrs, 3 SBs.

 

[Chadstroma]

 Alzado is 100% a miss in terms of trying to get a guy like McGlockton (who I remember being dominant in the early-mid 90s) a nod. But no question that should be flipped -- Alzado wasn't just a SB champion, mulitple pro/all-pro/all AFC attendee, he also had some comeback player of the year awards, and most importantly, embued the spirit of the Raiders more than Seymour and Chester.

Agreed on all of this but Alzado was a DE so your argument needs to be him bumping Townsend out (Howie ain't going anywhere). 

As for Aso vs Woodson. Aso has the edge on pure man to man coverage but Woodson was light years better in everything and I mean EVERYTHING else that has anything to do with a corner, plus could play S and plus could return (though we never used him for that but I think a couple of odd times). Also, in a pinch, you could throw him out to play WR if need be. 

 

[raidergil]

Agreed on all of this but Alzado was a DE so your argument needs to be him bumping Townsend out (Howie ain't going anywhere). 

As for Aso vs Woodson. Aso has the edge on pure man to man coverage but Woodson was light years better in everything and I mean EVERYTHING else that has anything to do with a corner, plus could play S and plus could return (though we never used him for that but I think a couple of odd times). Also, in a pinch, you could throw him out to play WR if need be. 

Quite simply, Woodson was a football player. Boy what might have been without that ridiculous Screw The Raiders, err, Tuck Rule. Dude fought through so many injuries. Was fantastic in GB. I hated seeing him get injured during GB Super Bowl win, but so glad he got a ring. And later came back to Oakland to finish out. He's an all time Raider to me.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Love to see us winning for the home crowd in this last game in OAK today.