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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter snitwitch
- Start date
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
That is kind of what he did this morning from Italy - where he announced that he was, in fact, on the call with Zelensky Support for impeaching President Donald Trump is growing.
A batch of recent polling confirms the Democratic impeachment push is gaining steam — including a new POLITICO/Morning Consult survey that shows for the first time that more voters support than oppose proceedings to remove Trump from office. The uptick is primarily among Democrats, as Republican voters surveyed continue to have Trump's back.
In the POLITICO/Morning Consult poll, 46 percent of voters said Congress should begin impeachment proceedings vs. 43 percent who said they should not. Eleven percent had no opinion. That support represented a 3-point bump from last week, when voters were evenly split.
A batch of recent polling confirms the Democratic impeachment push is gaining steam — including a new POLITICO/Morning Consult survey that shows for the first time that more voters support than oppose proceedings to remove Trump from office. The uptick is primarily among Democrats, as Republican voters surveyed continue to have Trump's back.
In the POLITICO/Morning Consult poll, 46 percent of voters said Congress should begin impeachment proceedings vs. 43 percent who said they should not. Eleven percent had no opinion. That support represented a 3-point bump from last week, when voters were evenly split.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I mostly agree. Schiff was giving his take on the call which may or not be accurate. Using your example, it's debatable whether Trump actually believes in the Biden conspiracy theory or not. Personally, I lean toward him believing.
Regardless, Schiff handled that poorly. I don't think one can say he's lying (he clearly stated Trump was "in essence" saying this), but it's wrong nonetheless.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Hardly seems a revelation that Trump also asked for Boris Johnson’s help. Presumably, I would guess, to discredit Steele.
Increasingly, the question of a quid pro quo seems irrelevant to me. What we have is a guy using his Article II powers to conduct foreign policy solely to rehabilitate his reputation and benefit his re-election campaign. There is no legitimate National Security interest in any of this.
The best explanation I’ve seen if High Crimes and Misdemeanors was on the Federalist Soceity’s website, strangely enough. But it marshaled a lot of evidence to show that impeachment under the English common law was akin to a modern action for breach of fiduciary duty. Trump’s Oath of Office requires him to exercise his Article II powers faithfully on behalf of the people. Not on behalf of his own interests.
Increasingly, the question of a quid pro quo seems irrelevant to me. What we have is a guy using his Article II powers to conduct foreign policy solely to rehabilitate his reputation and benefit his re-election campaign. There is no legitimate National Security interest in any of this.
The best explanation I’ve seen if High Crimes and Misdemeanors was on the Federalist Soceity’s website, strangely enough. But it marshaled a lot of evidence to show that impeachment under the English common law was akin to a modern action for breach of fiduciary duty. Trump’s Oath of Office requires him to exercise his Article II powers faithfully on behalf of the people. Not on behalf of his own interests.
Ned
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I have always approached this believing that malfeasance in public office is tantamount to a high crime while nonfeasance or misfeasance is not. Public office is held in trust, for the people. Violation of that trust, using the office for personal gain is the very definition of malfeasance.
Now what is treason, turning ones back on one's country. Selling out one's country. I might argue that placing personal gain above country is doing just that, in a broad sense, when one uses public office to seek personal gain without consequence or consideration of the public good first..
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I strongly agree with this. To be clear, there was a quid pro quo on the Ukraine call, but Trump's abuse of office still would been egregious even if the topic of military aid had never come up.
apalmer
Footballguy
But in today's world, there's very little practical difference between "look for dirt" and "make up dirt". If a person with great influence tweets "Hey, Ukraine is investigating Sleepy Joe Biden's corruption" his millions of followers are going to assume that means Biden is corrupt and spread the word, just as they are now doing. There is absolutely no evidence that what Biden did was corrupt. In fact, it was the exact opposite: he helped get rid of the guy the entire world knew was protecting corruption. Yet, Fox News, Breitbart and the rest of the usual suspects are force-feeding the "corrupt Biden" story because "Trump wouldn't have asked if there wasn't something there".
Edit to add: This is even more true where an "investigation" is going to be a long term thing. Picture Trump being able to claim every day between now and election day "Ukraine is investigating Sleepy Joe' for corruption!" ("hyphen" added for accuracy) By the time election day gets here, it doesn't matter whether dirt is found or not; Biden is already covered.
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jamny
Footballguy
So, forget Fox News, Breitbart and the rest of the usual suspects. Can you tell the difference between finding dirt and making up dirt? If you can, you would be able to admit that what Schiff said wasn't accurate.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
The problem is Schiff wasn't saying he was quoting him directly. He said as much. Was it a great tactic? Probably not...gave Trump something to complain “fake news” about.
But the same people who have complained loudest about that...have zero issue with Trumps actions...have defended him even alleging the inquiry now is a coup.
timschochet
Footballguy
Putin just made a public statement in support of Trump, said that Trump’s enemies would do anything to get rid of him.
jamny
Footballguy
That's why I said right from the beginning that there is no need to make things up. There's enough here to work with without having to do that. Yes, it creates a distraction for Trump supporters so it's best not to deny that Schiff made anything up. He did and it was the wrong thing to do. I don't care if he said he wasn't directly quoting him. Doing that on a TV interview is one thing. Doing it as part of an opening statement of an investigation is entirely different. Just admit that and move forward.
ren hoek
Footballguy
@kaitlancollins
“I never met Rudy Giuliani – never. And never had any phone calls with him,” Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky says in English during a press conference in Kiev, per @clarissaward
“I never met Rudy Giuliani – never. And never had any phone calls with him,” Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky says in English during a press conference in Kiev, per @clarissaward
I am sure there is a point here, but I am not following it.
Have there been allegations that Giuliani met, or spoke, with Zelensky?
NopeI am sure there is a point here, but I am not following it.
Have there been allegations that Giuliani met, or spoke, with Zelensky?
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Joe and Hunter Biden had already been totally exonerated -- by Trumpian standards -- so any attempt to "find dirt" on them would have been equivalent to making up dirt.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
The Electoral College and the power of Impeachment were both put in the Constitution for this specific type of President. I don't believe there is any grand way of denying that, regardless of whether or not some might try. And one of those systems already failed to be the stop-gap protection it was designed to be.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The basic point that you're overlooking is that Donald was using the power of his office to ask a foreign nation to investigate a political rival. As a favor to his campaign. If this was on the up and up, we have an entire Justice department which could have handled this chore.
Skoo
Footballguy
....and?
For someone who "doesn't support Trump", you sure do seem to come to his aid at every single turn.
Wouldn't someone who is against corruption be all for getting to the bottom of this? Or does that only apply to people not named Trump?
apalmer
Footballguy
He didn't ask them to "Find dirt". He asked them to "Look for dirt". "Looking for dirt" IS "Making up dirt", since it allows Trump to tweet every day that Biden is being investigated. By the time December 2020 rolls around and it's announced that Ukraine found nothing, the damage has been done. The "Investigation" is the dirt.
mr roboto
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
I am not overlooking it and have already gone on record as saying this deserves an impeachment investigation.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Simply a headline that says “Ukraine looking into Bidens” would do the trick. Reopening the case against burisma is all that it would have required, and then sit on it all year.
ren hoek
Footballguy
The greater point is that Zelensky isn't going along with the narrative at all. He said it was a normal phone call and that nobody pushed him.I am sure there is a point here, but I am not following it.
Have there been allegations that Giuliani met, or spoke, with Zelensky?
"I don't want to be involved in democratic elections of the USA," said Pres Zelensky of Ukraine. "We had a good phone call," he said of that July 25 conversation with Pres Trump, the contents of which now made public. "It was normal. You read it. Nobody pushed me."
It undercuts the story if Zelensky wasn't bullied into submission and shook down like it's been portrayed by people who got Russiagate wrong. Once again, the Democrats are not standing up to Trump on his most substantive, destructive policy, but doubling down on the flimsiest, most inconsequential line of attack again.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
It is too bad you keep repeating falsehoods and ingoring facts. I will not put you on ignore in hopes that you will realize the errors in your ways since you at least try and engage.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
For someone who seems to be well read and intelligent, you are extremely naive. Did you really expect someone who just got extorted to come out against the person dangling much needed military aid?
bigbottom
Footballguy
What Schiff said was stretching beyond what the memo/transcript of the call contained, so to the extent he was characterizing the words reflected in the memo/transcript, it was not accurate. But it's absolutely bonkers that Trump is making an issue out of this because he mischaracterizes the facts multiple times a day, every day.
apalmer
Footballguy
Ah, the old "But when I gave the bank teller a note telling her to put all the money in her cash drawer in a bag, she just laughed, so I really didn't commit a crime" defense.
msommer
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Well, you're wrong. I think Trump should be tried for war crimes in Yemen. That's a serious crime he did. Not this phone call and pearlclutching for the Bidens.
What's there to get to the bottom of? We already have the transcript. There is no direct 'quid'.
Skoo
Footballguy
So, let me make sure I have this correct:
You're perfectly fine with a U.S. President using his office to ask foreign leaders help him win the 2020 election?
Pressure or not, you're ok with that? Mr. I Hate Corruption?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ha yeah, except for the dangling of the money, the explicit ask for a favor, and the meek self-abasement that follows.
randall146
Footballguy
Of course he wasn’t bullied into submission. He was getting hundreds of millions of dollars and all he had to do was say he was investigating Biden. Anyone would jump at that deal.
Which raises this question for trump supporters : Do you think asking for an investigation into Biden was a good use hundreds or millions of dollars of foreign policy leverage?
Which raises this question for trump supporters : Do you think asking for an investigation into Biden was a good use hundreds or millions of dollars of foreign policy leverage?
mr roboto
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
More subpoenas coming...this time to the White House. Will be sent by Elijah Cummings on Friday. Failure to comply will result in an additional Article of Impeachment. These documents have long been asked for and the White House has simply Ignored the request.
Yep. Can we all just agree that what Schiff said was unhelpful and move onto more important items?
timschochet
Footballguy
Giuliani threatening to sue Congress.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'm gonna sue the air we breathe for having too much inert nitrogen and depriving me of oxygen!
Insomniac
Footballguy
So when they ignore the subpoenas the GOP will have an additional count to acquit Trump. It's up to voters to punish members of Congress for not upholding the rule of law. The Trump base is unlikely to do this.
timschochet
Footballguy
During the Mueller investigation the White House was able to brazenly ignore requests and subpoenas because the public simply wasn’t paying attention. Now they are paying close attention, the public is very focused. Trying to stonewall Congress on Ukraine will not sit well with the public and will likely only increase the percentage of those in favor of impeachment.
Maybe you are missing the point - the president of the United States used his position to target a political opponent.
That is established. It is not in dispute. It is the very definition of abuse of power/office. You don't need anything else to show an impeachable offense.
The fact that he does it repeatedly - is not a defense.
The harsh reality is, the country elected a conspiracy nut to be President. Shame on us. Trump has shown consistently that he has no grasp of reality - whether you go back to the birther crap, or to the DNC server, or to Biden bribing Ukraine in 2014. Trump latches onto any set of allegations that suits his current needs. He is a disaster, in every conceivable way, as the president/leader of the United States.
The more often that point is made. The better.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
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