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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter snitwitch
- Start date
Weebs210
Footballguy
Coming from the side who mimics the playbook of the boy who cried wolf. A bit ironic.
jamny
Footballguy
My point is that, unless something else comes out to back it up, there's no reason to infer anything here. What you have already is damning enough.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Do you give all politicians carte blanche to just investigate their wild fantasy conspiracy stuff in any manner they like?
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I agree with fatguy myself, though I completely get the prevailing sense in here. I just fear that nothing is ironclad when dealing with Trumpism and complicit Republicans. The Ukraine thing should absolutely be enough (assuming the process turns up ample corroboration through interviews, etc) but I just don’t see the Senate convicting regardless. There will always be seeds that can be spun.
From what I recall, most of Mueller’s conclusions in his report regarding Russian “collusion” were a result of an inability to get testimony/documents, etc. Impeachment proceedings make more tools available for doing so, with far less potential for withholding information.
I think there needs to be an overwhelming argument against Trump, a deluge of whatever is deemed impeachable, not a single thing to pin our hopes on that Republicans will spin/ whitewash/ etc. I just don’t see them giving up power regardless, by now I’m surprised others feel differently.
And if it carries on up to and during the election, why is that a bad thing? (Oops, I forget, that will only help Trump).
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Weebs210
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
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caustic
Footballguy
538 just released a poll in which they did not assume a quid pro quo: “Impeachment is the first step in the process of removing a president from office. Do you think the House of Representatives should impeach President Trump?”
45% Yes
30% No
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Assuming a quid pro quo is key, so far no proof of that whatsoever. Without it, 65% of folks oppose impeachment. Not good for Dems.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Weebs210
Footballguy
Having the media frame Trump as guilty throughout the whole thing only to have him come up clean was not done properly
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
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Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Yes. The transcript of the call is all we know as fact and that does not implicate Trump as he did not commit a crime. The whistleblower report is hearsay and not proof.
Dickies
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Come up clean
Where is it that a president just gets to investigate their bat#### conspiracy ideas in this manner?
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Just a YouGov poll, but support for impeachment (assuming a quid pro quo) runs at 55% for to 26% against. 22% of Republicans would “strongly support” impeachment.
Almost as if having a spine and taking your case to the people will increase your support. Who knew?
Dickies
Footballguy
It is evidence, with the transcript corroborating a significant allegation.
Sen Graham says we don’t need a crime to remove Trump
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually the transcript is not proof either. It's a 5 page report of a phone call that lasted 30 minutes. It's quite obviously incomplete.
But in any case your essential point is, I believe, correct. No matter how many of us might feel otherwise, Donald Trump will never be convicted unless there is evidence of a quid pro quo. As it happens, the report says there is- and a coverup. So this issue will be decided by the public testimony of White House aides over the next month.
supermike80
Footballguy
Where is the timmydude poll guy??? The guy who quotes polls in almost every single post..I am POSITIVE he has a poll that shows support for Trump's removal from office. I am absolutely sure of it.
timschochet
Footballguy
I strongly suspect by next week polls will show a majority of Americans will want Trump impeached. Let's see what happens.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Intel whistleblowers who, to avoid being muzzled by reporting through defective channels (such as in the current case) take their concerns outside of their agency, usually fare far worse. That’s because of the Espionage Act, a 1917 law originally passed to punish foreign spies and which is regularly employed to prosecute those who disclose national security information in ways that are not sanctioned by the government. Defendants in Espionage Act trials are permitted no public interest defense, which would likely help their case with a jury. Defendants are prohibited from explaining to the court why they blew the whistle in the first place, or describing the crimes and public harm they were attempting to halt. Ellsberg still remembers his shock, during his 1973 trial on Espionage Act and other charges after he released the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times and other papers, when the prosecution prevented him from discussing his motives for releasing the papers—foremost of which was to end the Vietnam War. After his lawyer asked him straightforwardly why he’d done it, a prosecutor objected that the question was “immaterial,” and Judge William M. Byrne Jr. sustained. “My lawyer was stunned,” Ellsberg recalled to me in a recent interview. “He told Judge Byrne that he’d never heard of a case where a defendant wasn’t allowed to tell the jury why he’d done what he did. ‘Well, you’re hearing one now,’ Byrne said.” (Byrne eventually dismissed the charges against Ellsberg because of how the government had obtained evidence, but Ellsberg had been expecting to get a stiff prison sentence.)
Such gross abuse of law-abiding national security whistleblowers prompted Edward Snowden and others to make their revelations directly to the press, rather than risk being silenced and punished by following protocol. “Too often, you have to have a death wish to go through ‘established channels’ in national security,” says Tom Devine, legal director of the Government Accountability Project.
Barack Obama’s DOJ aggressively employed the Espionage Act to prosecute government employees who shared classified information with journalists, in some cases naming the journalists themselves as co-conspirators. The Obama administration charged eight such individuals—more than any other president—under the law, including former U.S. soldier Chelsea Manning, who leaked reams of documents to WikiLeaks, former CIA employee Jeffrey Sterling, who was accused of leaking documents to a journalist and former CIA analyst John Kiriakou, who made disclosures to the press about torture. //
If This Whistleblower’s Identity Is Revealed, We Might All Regret It
Here’s a Rhodes scholar with a forthcoming book on whistleblowing, praised by Ellsberg and the NYT, drawing comparison between the Ukraine whistleblower and other whistleblowers (saying “stupid ####” about “subjects he doesn’t understand” in other words). People interested in the rights and protections of whistleblowers don’t find a huge operative difference between whistleblowers that go through official channels and whistleblowers that don’t.
Such gross abuse of law-abiding national security whistleblowers prompted Edward Snowden and others to make their revelations directly to the press, rather than risk being silenced and punished by following protocol. “Too often, you have to have a death wish to go through ‘established channels’ in national security,” says Tom Devine, legal director of the Government Accountability Project.
Barack Obama’s DOJ aggressively employed the Espionage Act to prosecute government employees who shared classified information with journalists, in some cases naming the journalists themselves as co-conspirators. The Obama administration charged eight such individuals—more than any other president—under the law, including former U.S. soldier Chelsea Manning, who leaked reams of documents to WikiLeaks, former CIA employee Jeffrey Sterling, who was accused of leaking documents to a journalist and former CIA analyst John Kiriakou, who made disclosures to the press about torture. //
If This Whistleblower’s Identity Is Revealed, We Might All Regret It
Here’s a Rhodes scholar with a forthcoming book on whistleblowing, praised by Ellsberg and the NYT, drawing comparison between the Ukraine whistleblower and other whistleblowers (saying “stupid ####” about “subjects he doesn’t understand” in other words). People interested in the rights and protections of whistleblowers don’t find a huge operative difference between whistleblowers that go through official channels and whistleblowers that don’t.
apalmer
Footballguy
Describe the fictional part. Was it the description of the call the White House released? Was it the report that two Trump appointees have deemed credible? Oh, wait, I know: you're talking about Nunes's pretending that there was nothing to it. OK.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Not enough right now to impeach Trump. Don't worry, I'm sure the Dems will keep frantically searching for the next scandal all the way up until the next election which could easily go to Trump again.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
I hope not on Tuesdays and Thursdays. After teaching calligraphy and Zumba I spend the rest of my day teaching Military Science.
timschochet
Footballguy
I've actually met Ellsberg. He taught a class at UC Irvine when I was a student there. He was absolutely fascinating, and he would stay after class and talk to a few of us for as long as we wanted, sometimes for hours. Naturally I disagreed with him a LOT- in fact, he had some views similar to yours, Ren. But the nicest guy. And so knowledgeable about Cold War history. I learned a ton from him.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Doubt it but we will see. This will pass quickly as there doesn't look to be any legs behind it.
dkp993
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
That’s one way to look at it. But following the whistleblower laws is generally professional suicide, ineffective, and often ruins people’s lives. The laws are there to shield the government from accountability, to conceal as much wrongdoing as possible, and to keep the public in the dark. It’s a powerserving, opaque framework by design.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
OK, I see it. I suspect we’ll see an increase next time but it will mostly be due to an increase in Democrats supporting impeachment from 73% to near 90%. I suspect among Republicans it will remain in single digits. I’m most interested in how independents will shift.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
If there is no further corroborating evidence against Trump this is a huge win for Trump. However, the risk is of course that more individuals come forward and show that Trump tried to cover up and their was quid pro quo. As it stands now it is a giant nothing burger.
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apalmer
Footballguy
Poll conducted Sept. 19-23. That's before the release of the "transcript" and complaint.
-fish-
Footballguy
When the White House released the transcript, they thought that it would make Trump look good and end the inquiry into this matter. So the 5 pages they produced is likely what they chose as the most favorable parts, and it doesn't look good. Deposition transcripts are generally about a page a minute. I've never had a phone call transcribed, but I'd imagine they're about the same. I'm curious whether the other 25 or so pages are just irrelevant, or whether they're worse than what we've seen.
caustic
Footballguy
They discussed it in their blog on the Maguire testimony, here's the link they gave: https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-americans-support-trump-impeachment-inquiry-worry-about-blowback-2019-9
more like: Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
“I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, okay?”
"I love the poorly educated!"
Two of my favorites from Trump. The best quotes.
"I love the poorly educated!"
Two of my favorites from Trump. The best quotes.
whoknew
Footballguy
I will admit to my ignorance on federal whistleblower statutes so I cannot comment on whether what you write is true.
But - in this case - it seems like the statute should have worked. And would have worked. But for a super corrupt President and his henpecked AG. Maybe that's a failure of the statute that it does not account for uber corruption.
Dickies
Footballguy
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