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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (4 Viewers)

I don't see a possible outcome that doesn't drastically screw the local leagues, players and fans. Do you?
I think some patience is warranted. My understanding is the new league is not proposing that its members leave their national leagues.  The proposal is to add midweek games, in place of the UEFA tournaments.  UEFA is the big loser if this happens, which is the reason it’s president Ceferin is the loudest voice in opposition right now.  It is somewhat ironic that UEFA approved its new format today, and the main changes are more teams, a form of permanency for the big old clubs, and way more games (most of which we won’t watch). 

 
Perhaps I'm jaded by this since my favorite sport growing up (college basketball) is a shell of it's former self, but frankly I don't see why the big clubs (and international players) should care one iota about making sure some Division 1 team in England has a payday.  These aren't English or Spanish or Italian clubs anymore, but international clubs with international rosters and most importantly international fans.  

 
I only care to the point that it screws up the international game.  I have been waiting a life time as a US fan to see American's get to top teams and now we will be severely punished for it if these threats hold true.

I mentioned in the US thread, I think a Bosman like figure will emerge through this.  I have a hard time seeing this held up in court that you can be banned from a competition based on a contract you signed BEFORE this all hit the fan.

 
I think some patience is warranted. My understanding is the new league is not proposing that its members leave their national leagues. 
This was not my understanding.  I was under the impression that the 15 permanent teams (the 12 listed plus three more) are leaving their domestic leagues.  here is the wording that made me think it:

============

As part of the move, all 12 clubs are expected to resign from the European Club Association, the body which brings together 246 major clubs, with immediate effect. Sources have told ESPN that Arsenal have left with chief executive Vinai Venkatesham stepping down from his position on the ECA board. Venkatesham was only elected last month.

The remaining 14 Premier League clubs will hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday, but the six Super League sides are not invited, sources have told ESPN.

 
I only care to the point that it screws up the international game.  I have been waiting a life time as a US fan to see American's get to top teams and now we will be severely punished for it if these threats hold true.

I mentioned in the US thread, I think a Bosman like figure will emerge through this.  I have a hard time seeing this held up in court that you can be banned from a competition based on a contract you signed BEFORE this all hit the fan.
Banning players from international play seems like the most substantially unlikely thing to happen out of this, at least to me. The idea of it doesn’t even make sense. No way that happens. 

 
This was not my understanding.  I was under the impression that the 15 permanent teams (the 12 listed plus three more) are leaving their domestic leagues.  here is the wording that made me think it:

============

As part of the move, all 12 clubs are expected to resign from the European Club Association, the body which brings together 246 major clubs, with immediate effect. Sources have told ESPN that Arsenal have left with chief executive Vinai Venkatesham stepping down from his position on the ECA board. Venkatesham was only elected last month.

The remaining 14 Premier League clubs will hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday, but the six Super League sides are not invited, sources have told ESPN.
I don't think that makes much sense - the English clubs already make more broadcasting revenue in the home leagues than the Super League is proposing.

I think this was meant to be on top of Domestic league revenue.

 
Everything I read indicated it was a mid week competition with all teams continuing to play in their domestic competitions.  But at this point anything is possible.

I for one look forward to PSG being declared CL champs and Sevilla v Roma for the Eurpopa title.  Oh and Leicester gets the Double in England.

 
I don't think that makes much sense - the English clubs already make more broadcasting revenue in the home leagues than the Super League is proposing.

I think this was meant to be on top of Domestic league revenue.
Andy read it the same way I did.

If it's just a replacement CL...yeahsureyoubetcha.

 
This was not my understanding.  I was under the impression that the 15 permanent teams (the 12 listed plus three more) are leaving their domestic leagues.  here is the wording that made me think it:

============

As part of the move, all 12 clubs are expected to resign from the European Club Association, the body which brings together 246 major clubs, with immediate effect. Sources have told ESPN that Arsenal have left with chief executive Vinai Venkatesham stepping down from his position on the ECA board. Venkatesham was only elected last month.

The remaining 14 Premier League clubs will hold an emergency meeting on Tuesday, but the six Super League sides are not invited, sources have told ESPN.
It’s confusing, but note the 12 clubs are resigning from the ECA, which is UEFA. The English clubs aren’t leaving the English FA for example, at least not now.  I’m not sure the significance of the 14 EPL clubs meeting. 

 
It’s confusing, but note the 12 clubs are resigning from the ECA, which is UEFA. The English clubs aren’t leaving the English FA for example, at least not now.  I’m not sure the significance of the 14 EPL clubs meeting. 
I agree it is confusing.

Although it may not matter if UEFA sticks with it original threats that teams will be banned from all competitions who enter the new ESL.

 
This is a really interesting take that I need to think about more because I am not sure how I feel about it,  It has just enough truth in it to make me go "hmmmmmm"

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Regal Soccer

@Regal_Soccer

When you have no financial restrictions in place in the open market of football, clubs being able to buy trophies and just increase the wealth gap to preposterous amounts, was inevitable. That will always be the end result of pro/rel unless you put financial restrictions & caps

 
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This is a really interesting take that I need to think about more because I am not sure how I feel about it,  It has just enough truth in it to make me go "hmmmmmm"

========

Regal Soccer

@Regal_Soccer

When you have no financial restrictions in place in the open market of football, clubs being able to buy trophies and just increase the wealth gap to preposterous amounts, was inevitable. That will always be the end result of pro/rel unless you put financial restrictions & caps
oh and by the way, if the worst case happens and the ESL is formed with teams leaving their domestic leagues, I can almost 100% guarantee a salary cap will be put in place eventually in the ESL to continue down the American model.

 
oh and by the way, if the worst case happens and the ESL is formed with teams leaving their domestic leagues, I can almost 100% guarantee a salary cap will be put in place eventually in the ESL to continue down the American model.
There is already an inherent salary cap in place - teams are limited to spending 55% of the new revenue on player transfers and wages.

"- A cap of 55% of revenues permitted to be spent on salaries and transfers (net)"

 
It feels like nothing but threats from both sides.  This particular threat is a pretty big stick.

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[Daily Mail] Big Six clubs could be blocked from signing foreign players amid push to join new European Super League, with the Government set to step in and deny work permits.

 
It feels like nothing but threats from both sides.  This particular threat is a pretty big stick.

===========

[Daily Mail] Big Six clubs could be blocked from signing foreign players amid push to join new European Super League, with the Government set to step in and deny work permits.
Yeah, I don't there's any question that some combo of soccer's governing bodies, domestic governments and fans can block this if they really want to block it.  Especially if FIFA/UEFA don't try to challenge government interventions in court or punish national teams for the governments' actions.

With so much money at stake I'll be surprised if it comes to that, but hopefully the strong reax from the non-owner power players puts a stake in a closed breakaway at least.

 
There is no exact analogy to explain what has been proposed — and what has caused unprecedented turmoil — in European soccer the past two days. But for those more literate in insular American sports than trans-global affairs, consider this scenario: Duke, Kansas, UCLA and a dozen other pillars of college basketball decide they’re tired of participating in the NCAA tournament with smaller programs.

These pedigreed programs drive business; fans want to watch them, not Utah State and Western Kentucky. So while they’ll consent to — and benefit from — continuing to play in tradition-rich conferences every weekend, they will form their own super league, play one another home and away throughout the season, secure national TV slots and crown one of their select members as champions.

Let the mid-majors and Northwesterns have their one shining moments. The blue bloods don’t need them. It’s time for something bigger, better and, let’s not fool ourselves, more profitable.
This gets at it pretty good IMO.

 
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This gets at it pretty good IMO.
You're barking up the wrong tree here.  Conference realignment already did some of this and frankly as an alumni of one of the blue-blood programs, I'd much rather go this route, have more revenue and reinvest it on campus or into woman's programs than share it with the Utah State's of the world, but that's me.  If anything there's some allegiance to the conference, but even then, expansion has sort of killed that as well as we don't even get home and home's with some of our historical rivals.  

 
You're barking up the wrong tree here.  Conference realignment already did some of this and frankly as an alumni of one of the blue-blood programs, I'd much rather go this route, have more revenue and reinvest it on campus or into woman's programs than share it with the Utah State's of the world, but that's me.  If anything there's some allegiance to the conference, but even then, expansion has sort of killed that as well as we don't even get home and home's with some of our historical rivals.  
I think the conference play is like the EPL, not this.  Still not awesome, but different than just giving yourself a pass to the Sweet 16 each year and locking the other teams out.

 
You're barking up the wrong tree here.  Conference realignment already did some of this and frankly as an alumni of one of the blue-blood programs, I'd much rather go this route, have more revenue and reinvest it on campus or into woman's programs than share it with the Utah State's of the world, but that's me.  If anything there's some allegiance to the conference, but even then, expansion has sort of killed that as well as we don't even get home and home's with some of our historical rivals.  
My interest in tracking Pitt basketball pretty much evaporated to nothing when they left the Big East.

 
I think the conference play is like the EPL, not this.  Still not awesome, but different than just giving yourself a pass to the Sweet 16 each year and locking the other teams out.
I don't care about the pass, I just want to play other bluebloods and want that extra revenue to reinvest in the school (I mean line my coaches pockets).  Similarly I just want to see more (any) Chelsea-Barca or Manu-Juventus matches.

 
I don't care about the pass, I just want to play other bluebloods and want that extra revenue to reinvest in the school (I mean line my coaches pockets).  Similarly I just want to see more (any) Chelsea-Barca or Manu-Juventus matches.
Not to jump in mid-conversation, but while I agree with the sentiment to have the best play the best, the "pass" of non-relegation is what sucks.  If these teams are worthy of being in a "Super" league, they should have no problems staying on merit, but to stay up at the expense of better teams that aren't founding members?  GTFO.

 
Perhaps I'm jaded by this since my favorite sport growing up (college basketball) is a shell of it's former self, but frankly I don't see why the big clubs (and international players) should care one iota about making sure some Division 1 team in England has a payday.  These aren't English or Spanish or Italian clubs anymore, but international clubs with international rosters and most importantly international fans.  
I think the main difference between college basketball and international soccer is that in soccer the big clubs continuously raid the other clubs to reload their rosters, and you don't see that as much or with as much of a seismic impact in college hoops. To me, that means the big clubs do have somewhat of an interest in what the rest of the teams in their and other leagues are doing. The big clubs almost routinely throw tons of money at the most productive players to lure them away from their current club; if those 'feeder' clubs suffer financially, those players will suffer too, from poorer competition/coaching, fewer games against ever decreasing quality talent, and even salary hardships that see them go flip burgers or worse in order to pay the bills.  To me, it's the first step towards killing the game, because it kills everything that makes these elite clubs possible. Eventually only these big international clubs will be able to afford having academies, and who knows where and for how long they'll decide to open them, especially if they don't turn a profit/produce money-making superstars on a regular basis, and we'll see everyone move to pay-to-play.  The great thing about soccer on the global stage now is that you DON'T need money to become a great player, but pay-to-play will kill that and the game's popularity along with it.

 
What does the rest of the internet have to say?  They think this is a good thing?
Pretty much everything I've seen circles around the words "disgraceful, embarasing, money grab".

Bruno and SAF both came out against it.

Not to mention great quotes like "Nottingham Forrest have more European Titles then Arsenal, Tottenham, and City combined"

 
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So Poch gets a trophy with PSG (the one they have craved since buying Neymar) and Jose gets sacked a week before he plays for the one trophy Spurs could get, and their first in how many years?

 
Statement by Karl-Heinz Rummeniggge

Commenting on the plans to introduce a European Super League, FC Bayern München CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge said: "FC Bayern has not been involved in the plans for creating a Super League. We are convinced that the current structure in football guarantees a reliable foundation. FC Bayern welcomes the reforms of the Champions League because we believe they are the right step to take for the development of European football. The modified group stage will contribute to an increase in excitement and the emotional experience in the competition."

"I do not believe the Super League will solve the financial problems of European clubs that have arisen as result of the coronavirus pandemic. Rather, all clubs in Europe should work in solidarity to ensure that the cost structure, especially players' salaries and agents' fees, are brought in line with revenues, to make all of European football more rational."

 
Not to mention great quotes like "Nottingham Forrest have more European Titles then Arsenal, Tottenham, and City combined"
#FakeNews

Nottingham Forest have 3 European Trophies

Tottenham have 3 European Trophies (Two UEFA Cups, and UEFA Winners Cup), Arsenal and Man City each have 1 European Cup (both have won the UEFA Winners Cup) 

 
#FakeNews

Nottingham Forest have 3 European Trophies

Tottenham have 3 European Trophies (Two UEFA Cups, and UEFA Winners Cup), Arsenal and Man City each have 1 European Cup (both have won the UEFA Winners Cup) 
Interesting.  Have seen the NF post a few times. 

 
What does the rest of the internet have to say?  They think this is a good thing?
The great majority, or at least the loudest voices, believe this will mean the end of football.  Most on the Chelsea boards (which seem to be 90% complete morons on a normal day) are planning protests, renouncing allegiance, etc.  I have yet to see a coherent argument as to the downside.  The one negative I see is that the race for top 4 in England will no longer be a thing.  So for example this season, which has an interesting top 4 race among several teams,  would have little interest left - a slight possibility Man United might catch Man City and a relegation battle.

 
The great majority, or at least the loudest voices, believe this will mean the end of football.  Most on the Chelsea boards (which seem to be 90% complete morons on a normal day) are planning protests, renouncing allegiance, etc.  I have yet to see a coherent argument as to the downside.  The one negative I see is that the race for top 4 in England will no longer be a thing.  So for example this season, which has an interesting top 4 race among several teams,  would have little interest left - a slight possibility Man United might catch Man City and a relegation battle.
That is the same basic pushback I see on Spurs boards.

if you really want to throw a grenade into the situation - suggest a play-off system to decide the champion...

 
It feels like the loudest voices are acting off the rumors and not the actual report of how the league will work.  They are all acting like these 12-15 teams will not be a part of the domestic leagues anymore and will only be playing in the superleague.  Seems that isn't the case.

I think the biggest issue is the money basically being dedicated to the 12 "founding clubs" and their inability to ever be relegated from the ESL.  It makes the weath gap that much bigger and means ESL teams can buy the better players and win more.  There is no financial penalty for not making the CL (or europa) for these teams.  It decreases the chance of a Leicester winning the league, there is no longer an incentive to make the top 4 and compete vs the top teams from around the world.  

The wealth gap is already an issue with the sovereign wealth funds and russian backed teams.  But as little as FFP and the 55% cap did, it will be even less.

 
It feels like the loudest voices are acting off the rumors and not the actual report of how the league will work.  They are all acting like these 12-15 teams will not be a part of the domestic leagues anymore and will only be playing in the superleague.  Seems that isn't the case.

I think the biggest issue is the money basically being dedicated to the 12 "founding clubs" and their inability to ever be relegated from the ESL.  It makes the weath gap that much bigger and means ESL teams can buy the better players and win more.  There is no financial penalty for not making the CL (or europa) for these teams.  It decreases the chance of a Leicester winning the league, there is no longer an incentive to make the top 4 and compete vs the top teams from around the world.  

The wealth gap is already an issue with the sovereign wealth funds and russian backed teams.  But as little as FFP and the 55% cap did, it will be even less.
Isn't this sort of canard.  Out of the big 6 in England, only 4-5 can make it any one year anyway, so almost by definition, two must be just getting by.  I mean ManU's missed the CL 3 of the last 7 years and failed to get out the group once, and it hasn't destroyed them.

 

 
I don't think we should focus only on the EPL here.  What this does is it reduces the "other" leagues and other bigger clubs to a perpetual second tier status.  I brought up Porto and Ajax, two clubs with strong CL historical performances, not to mention up and comers like RBL, Leicester, and Napoli.

Locking in revenues like this is anti-competitive and collusive. Things that should be avoided IMO.   

 

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