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***Official "The Last Dance" The MJ/Chicago Bulls Dynasty 10 Part Mini-Series Thread*** (1 Viewer)

Cjw_55106 said:
No idea what your second thought has to do with anything?
As to the first, yes, I would say most people already have an opinion about him. That’s why I was curious if anything isn’t already public knowledge. 
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His statement was more geared toward the younger crowd viewing him negatively. You know those who have no clue who he was and most kids not old enough to remember Kobe/Shaq 3peat now. Different world today then back then MJ could be viewed pretty bad. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
The aspect of Jordan's career I admire most is the fact he didn't need to cherry pick his landing spots and win AAU style to get his 6 rings. No doubt he had one heckuva wing man (which all-time great didn't) but other than Pippen he was mostly surrounded by role players and misfits. LeBron could play to 50 and hold every statistical record and I'd never consider him better than MJ. Just one man's opinion, not one I expect many to share.
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Lebran doesn't have the Assassin Mentality Jordan nor Kobe had. Plus Lebron isn't gonna punch a teammate in the face like Jordan did or get on his guys more for not winning. Just remember what Lebron did to David Blatt. It was embarrassing behavior that could've handled that situation way better. MJ may not have loved his coaches outside of Phil but he never open mistreated them or made them look like clowns. Jerry Krause yes but like it's said in the Doc there's times where he kind of deserved it though. Blatt never did. Lebron went crying for Help where besides having Pippen he and Pip made the guys around them better.. I don't think Lebron has even done that IMHO and he carried his Cavs teams early on in a weak Eastern Conference and again with the Heat. Outside of legit contender Bos or CHI during that time.

People will say Lebron is better based on stats but he has 3 seasons ahead of MJ since MJ went into College, MJ missed 62 games of his second season and 82 in 95.In all Lebron is literally ahead by almost 400 games already if both play a full 82 game season. Thats a lot of games. So whenever I here Lebron did this or that at such age where it took MJ this X amount of time I just give a "no Really?" comment back. Like seriously thats no surprise. MJ had a lot of stuff LBJ and others don't have today. Half these soft players today would complain about MJ being a bad teammate when he's trying to toughen them up.  

 
It hurt as a life-long Milwaukee Bucks fan to be reminded how we completely owned the Bulls for over a decade until Jordan showed up.  I don't think they mentioned that the Bucks eliminated the Bulls from the playoffs in Jordan's rookie season.  He hit a game-winner in one of those games, but the Bucks advanced.  As a result, I view Jordan kind of the same way I view Walter Payton - respect for his quality, but hate everything else about him.  The worst was how Bulls fans would flock to Milwaukee for Bulls games because it was so much cheaper to attend games here.  As a result, I sat through a dozen or so Bucks-Bulls games where the home stadium was typically 70%-80% Bulls fans and there was nothing we could do about it.  They won the 70th game of the 72-10 season in Milwaukee and there were helicopters overhead covering the team bus as it went to and from the stadium.  All horrible memories, made even worse by the fact that, now that we've completely flipped the script on them, our season was cruelly cut short by the CV19.

 
Encyclopedia Brown said:
Jerry Krause had an obviously keen eye for talent (he was a top scout in two different sports), and for deal making, but his inability to relate to anyone on even a basic human level was pathologically destructive.

Scottie and Phil still seem emotionally wounded by the way Krause treated them. 
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And that's the thing that lets me know that Jerry was mostly in the wrong. It's one thing for MJ to dislike and mock Krause. He was insanely competitive and certainly an ####### at times. But Pippen and Phil are generally thought of as really nice guys, especially Phil. If they were that pissed at Krause than he was the issue. 

 
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shader said:
Takes me back to a time when the NBA was my favorite sport by far.  Two great episodes.
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I think the NFL has always been my favorite, but the NBA was really close during that time period.

I’m not really sure what’s different now other than the regular season just doesn’t feel like it matters anymore so my interest isn’t nearly as high. Used to feel like every game was a big deal, especially against division opponents or rivals. Not sure if that’s just because I’m older and the importance of other things in life overshadows sports, because there’s an oversaturation in coverage, players mostly seem to only care about playing hard in the playoffs, or some combination of those things.

 
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CletiusMaximus said:
It hurt as a life-long Milwaukee Bucks fan to be reminded how we completely owned the Bulls for over a decade until Jordan showed up.  I don't think they mentioned that the Bucks eliminated the Bulls from the playoffs in Jordan's rookie season.  He hit a game-winner in one of those games, but the Bucks advanced.  As a result, I view Jordan kind of the same way I view Walter Payton - respect for his quality, but hate everything else about him.  The worst was how Bulls fans would flock to Milwaukee for Bulls games because it was so much cheaper to attend games here.  As a result, I sat through a dozen or so Bucks-Bulls games where the home stadium was typically 70%-80% Bulls fans and there was nothing we could do about it.  They won the 70th game of the 72-10 season in Milwaukee and there were helicopters overhead covering the team bus as it went to and from the stadium.  All horrible memories, made even worse by the fact that, now that we've completely flipped the script on them, our season was cruelly cut short by the CV19.
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I'm sure I've told this here before but my lifelong GBs BIL is/was Tim Donaghy. He reffed the game after the 70th win in Chicago and he gave us his tickets. We were hoping the Bucks would pull off the upset so we could be there for history but alas, Benoit Benjamin only played a few minutes so it was a lost cause /sarcasm. At any rate we made the trip down from Milwaukee and the UC was on fire that night. Like 5 minutes before Allen Parson's Project started, the crowd just started standing and cheering. It was like a movie slow clap that just kept building and building and the crescendo may have been the loudest stadium I've ever heard. By the time introductions started, you couldn't even hear the music and could vaguely make out the announcer. IIRC there was like 23,000 people in attendance. 

After the game Donaghy got us down into the tunnel. The area they showed a few times lat night where they would stretch was where we were hanging out with him, Ed Rush and the other ref from the game shooting the breeze. The Bulls locker room was through another set of doors and we obviously couldn't go in there. Eventually Pippen, and John Salley walked through and our dumb, zit covered 15 year old faces were just stupid. Pippen said "What's up kids" to us and Salley gave us a peace sign. 

At one point the doors opened to the hallway to their locker room and Jordan was just leaving. He went the opposite way but my GB loves to tell the story that I punched him in the face and said "Look! It's ####### Jordan!" I lightly tapped him on the shoulder and his face got in the way. We were 30 feet from greatness. It's kinda stupid but I'll never forget that day.

 
strykerpks said:
I'm sure I've told this here before but my lifelong GBs BIL is/was Tim Donaghy. He reffed the game after the 70th win in Chicago and he gave us his tickets. We were hoping the Bucks would pull off the upset so we could be there for history but alas, Benoit Benjamin only played a few minutes so it was a lost cause /sarcasm. At any rate we made the trip down from Milwaukee and the UC was on fire that night. Like 5 minutes before Allen Parson's Project started, the crowd just started standing and cheering. It was like a movie slow clap that just kept building and building and the crescendo may have been the loudest stadium I've ever heard. By the time introductions started, you couldn't even hear the music and could vaguely make out the announcer. IIRC there was like 23,000 people in attendance. 

After the game Donaghy got us down into the tunnel. The area they showed a few times lat night where they would stretch was where we were hanging out with him, Ed Rush and the other ref from the game shooting the breeze. The Bulls locker room was through another set of doors and we obviously couldn't go in there. Eventually Pippen, and John Salley walked through and our dumb, zit covered 15 year old faces were just stupid. Pippen said "What's up kids" to us and Salley gave us a peace sign. 

At one point the doors opened to the hallway to their locker room and Jordan was just leaving. He went the opposite way but my GB loves to tell the story that I punched him in the face and said "Look! It's ####### Jordan!" I lightly tapped him on the shoulder and his face got in the way. We were 30 feet from greatness. It's kinda stupid but I'll never forget that day.
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Tim is from my area. A ton of people who knew/know him. I just recently watched Inside Game the movie on the betting scandal. It's told from Tommy Martino's side more so then Tim's though. Fascinating story. We all know what happens at the end but people forget how they got caught. Their buddy who's the ring leader had a huge gambling addiction problem. He started betting and gambling more money on games that got the FBI's ears to perk up and eventually caught them. 

 
strykerpks said:
I'm sure I've told this here before but my lifelong GBs BIL is/was Tim Donaghy. He reffed the game after the 70th win in Chicago and he gave us his tickets. We were hoping the Bucks would pull off the upset so we could be there for history but alas, Benoit Benjamin only played a few minutes so it was a lost cause /sarcasm. At any rate we made the trip down from Milwaukee and the UC was on fire that night. Like 5 minutes before Allen Parson's Project started, the crowd just started standing and cheering. It was like a movie slow clap that just kept building and building and the crescendo may have been the loudest stadium I've ever heard. By the time introductions started, you couldn't even hear the music and could vaguely make out the announcer. IIRC there was like 23,000 people in attendance. 

After the game Donaghy got us down into the tunnel. The area they showed a few times lat night where they would stretch was where we were hanging out with him, Ed Rush and the other ref from the game shooting the breeze. The Bulls locker room was through another set of doors and we obviously couldn't go in there. Eventually Pippen, and John Salley walked through and our dumb, zit covered 15 year old faces were just stupid. Pippen said "What's up kids" to us and Salley gave us a peace sign. 

At one point the doors opened to the hallway to their locker room and Jordan was just leaving. He went the opposite way but my GB loves to tell the story that I punched him in the face and said "Look! It's ####### Jordan!" I lightly tapped him on the shoulder and his face got in the way. We were 30 feet from greatness. It's kinda stupid but I'll never forget that day.
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Did Tim tell you how much he had on the game?  :D  

 
DJackson10 said:
Lebran doesn't have the Assassin Mentality Jordan nor Kobe had. Plus Lebron isn't gonna punch a teammate in the face like Jordan did or get on his guys more for not winning. Just remember what Lebron did to David Blatt. It was embarrassing behavior that could've handled that situation way better. MJ may not have loved his coaches outside of Phil but he never open mistreated them or made them look like clowns. Jerry Krause yes but like it's said in the Doc there's times where he kind of deserved it though. Blatt never did. Lebron went crying for Help where besides having Pippen he and Pip made the guys around them better.. I don't think Lebron has even done that IMHO and he carried his Cavs teams early on in a weak Eastern Conference and again with the Heat. Outside of legit contender Bos or CHI during that time.

People will say Lebron is better based on stats but he has 3 seasons ahead of MJ since MJ went into College, MJ missed 62 games of his second season and 82 in 95.In all Lebron is literally ahead by almost 400 games already if both play a full 82 game season. Thats a lot of games. So whenever I here Lebron did this or that at such age where it took MJ this X amount of time I just give a "no Really?" comment back. Like seriously thats no surprise. MJ had a lot of stuff LBJ and others don't have today. Half these soft players today would complain about MJ being a bad teammate when he's trying to toughen them up.  
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There is no way that anyone could argue LeBron is better if they had watched every bulls game in the mid to late 90s

 
pantherclub said:
There is no way that anyone could argue LeBron is better if they had watched every bulls game in the mid to late 90s
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I totally agree with you, but there is some data to suggest that overall LeBron has had a better all around game (higher per game rate of rebounds and assists). But total stats don't measure overall impact and the point of a game when the stats occurred.

To me, MJ more than made up for that by being the ultimate closer and assassin in the clutch. Michael would give up his own kids before he gave away the basketball to take a game winning shot. James would normally defer to others at crunch time and often had stretches where he disappeared at the end of big games.

 
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pantherclub said:
There is no way that anyone could argue LeBron is better if they had watched every bulls game in the mid to late 90s
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One point Bill Simmons made in an article he did some time ago was that, unless you lived in Chicago, it was very hard to watch every or even most Bulls games in the mid to late 90's.  For most of us, that meant maybe 15 or 20 regular season games at most.  Then we'd see on Sportscenter he had 49 one night, buzzer-beater the next, triple double, etc. night after night in these road games where he was totally carrying the team, especially when Pippen was out.  There was no concept of load management back then, and he would never have accepted it anyway. 

 
strykerpks said:
It wasn't until 2003ish? when he openly admitted to me that the NBA didn't want Milwaukee beating Philly in 6 in 2001. The Scott Williams suspension was subtle but worked. I've already said too much.
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No such thing as too much.  I'd take all the inside info you'd share on that era.  I don't think much has changed, frankly.

 
facook said:
No such thing as too much.  I'd take all the inside info you'd share on that era.  I don't think much has changed, frankly.
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I don't want to take anything away from this doc. That's what this thread is for. I might take this to the NBA thread if there are any other questions.

That being said, I interacted with him probably a total of 10 times. My GB and I were buds in high school and his sister was like 9 years older, married to an NBA ref. So we didn't see them a lot.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I totally agree with you, but there is some data to suggest that overall LeBron has had a better all around game (higher per game rate of rebounds and assists). But total stats don't measure overall impact and the point of a game when the stats occurred.

To me, MJ more than made up for that by being the ultimate closer and assassin in the clutch. Michael would give up his own kids before he gave away the basketball to take a game winning shot. James would normally defer to others at crunch time and often had stretched where he disappeared at the end of big games.
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I think when you put everything together from stats, mindset etc MJ is better. You just can't compare numbers or LBJ passing MJ on PTS, GMS etc because Lebron has over 400 games not including playoffs ahead of MJ. Lebron has a 5 yrs head start there. Lebron has been healthier then MJ most of his career however I do feel Lebron is more afraid of contact then MJ was and his flopping is hilarious, but at the same time pathetic and embarrassing when he does it against guys he should be pushing around with his weight. 

 
strykerpks said:
It wasn't until 2003ish? when he openly admitted to me that the NBA didn't want Milwaukee beating Philly in 6 in 2001. The Scott Williams suspension was subtle but worked. I've already said too much.
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I saw a Youtube video on this actually about speculation but this clears stuff up 

 
strykerpks said:
I don't want to take anything away from this doc. That's what this thread is for. I might take this to the NBA thread if there are any other questions.

That being said, I interacted with him probably a total of 10 times. My GB and I were buds in high school and his sister was like 9 years older, married to an NBA ref. So we didn't see them a lot.
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If you want to get constantly attacked by people on this go ahead. I've been pounding the drum on this for yrs about fixed games and all. If you don't want to go into the NBA thread I'd gladly PM you about all of this. 

I grew up in Tim's town so I've met quite a few people who either knew him, family members who did or had friends with family who knew them. It was quite the story throughout The Tri-state area when it first happened. I can't remember if his wife is from the area though. Always wanted to talk to Tim to get his side on everything because no-one ever seemed to have wanted his side or was afraid of what he might reveal on the league IMHO 

 
belljr said:
Yeah thanks.  I found it to record.

I was all in on MJ as a kid/earrly 20s

That's way before I knew about anything "negative"
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I did the same with AI after MJ was gone. I was more of a Kobe then AI fan but wanted to try and root for my Local 76ers. It didn't workout as they traded my favorite at the time Stackhouse. Then I had about 3 friends fathers who liked the team but knew AI's negative history (One had a client who worked the AC casinos AI frequented) another had friends in sports who told about the real AI. When I found those things out I kind of stop rooting for them went back to fully rooting for CHI (who I never stopped rooting for to begin with) 

 
facook said:
No such thing as too much.  I'd take all the inside info you'd share on that era.  I don't think much has changed, frankly.
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You and me both. I still think more refs and David Stern himself were involved in this but Tim was the fall guy. No Doubt Joey Crawford was involved in this too in someway or shape or form. 

 
strykerpks said:
It wasn't until 2003ish? when he openly admitted to me that the NBA didn't want Milwaukee beating Philly in 6 in 2001. The Scott Williams suspension was subtle but worked. I've already said too much.
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Haven't been a fan of the NBA since game 6. Milwaukee was going to be champions that year before the fix was in. I will never spend any money on the NBA again, and haven't since game 6.

 
Challenge Everything said:
Haven't been a fan of the NBA since game 6. Milwaukee was going to be champions that year before the fix was in. I will never spend any money on the NBA again, and haven't since game 6.
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It's why to this day I worry if even with the league's best player, that the NBA will get in the way of them winning a title. My reaction to strykerpks's post was a somber "I knew it", not an outraged "I KNEW IT!". 

My only hope is that with Giannis's global popularity, there won't be some huge downside to the Bucks being in the Finals. The NFL proves it regularly with markets like Pittsburgh and Green Bay driving some of the highest ratings.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
It's why to this day I worry if even with the league's best player, that the NBA will get in the way of them winning a title. My reaction to strykerpks's post was a somber "I knew it", not an outraged "I KNEW IT!". 

My only hope is that with Giannis's global popularity, there won't be some huge downside to the Bucks being in the Finals. The NFL proves it regularly with markets like Pittsburgh and Green Bay driving some of the highest ratings.
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Even if Giannis and the Bucks win, I won't support the NBA one iota. I'll be a passive supporter, won't spend money though.

To the other discussion about LeBron vs. Jordan... to me, LeBron isn't the best player after Jordan at all. Tim Duncan is the best player of the 00's and 10's.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
It's why to this day I worry if even with the league's best player, that the NBA will get in the way of them winning a title. My reaction to strykerpks's post was a somber "I knew it", not an outraged "I KNEW IT!". 

My only hope is that with Giannis's global popularity, there won't be some huge downside to the Bucks being in the Finals. The NFL proves it regularly with markets like Pittsburgh and Green Bay driving some of the highest ratings.
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I mean, is it really coincidence the NBA authorities slobbed China in the same year China purposefully released accidentally caused a pandemic which crushed Milwaukee's best chance at a title in the last 30 years?  :tinfoilhat:

 
I have an 18 year old son who is a basketball player. He’s heard stories about Jordan and the other greats of the era. But this generation hasn’t ever seen those guys play. 

His older brother is aboard Team LeBron. The two of them have watched the first two hours 2-3 times already. 

Both are getting schooled in basketball history. They were both extremely disappointed to find out it only airs once a week. They thought it would be night after night. 

 
It's funny to watch the highlights of all those Jordan mid-range fade-aways and weird-angled, well defended shots.  In today's game those would be considered terrible shots but he was arguably the best at them.  No doubt if he were a young player today, they would coach that out of him and he would focus on threes and drives.

I was a little disappointed in the Scottie Pippen episode.  They didn't get into the 93-94 season without Jordan, how awesome Pippen was that year, and the drama throughout including refusing to enter the last 1.8 seconds of the playoff game against the Knicks because Phil Jackson drew up a shot for Toni Kukoc (which Kukoc hit).  But I guess this is mostly about Jordan so they got to cut stuff.

 
I wore out the Jordan highlight VHSs like ‘Come Fly With Me’ as a kid. This already has had a lot of footage I have not seen. 
Its jumping around and digging in in an odd way but I prefer the back and forth more than just straight chronological. 
I was prob 8 and did not know about the minutes restriction stuff with the coach before Collins and how much Krause inserted himself in to that (and everything apparently). 

 
Loving this. Never realized Pippen was such a high pick (5) and so badly screwed on salary his whole career. He seems like a really good dude from a really good family. 

 
Otis said:
Loving this. Never realized Pippen was such a high pick (5) and so badly screwed on salary his whole career. He seems like a really good dude from a really good family. 
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He was underpaid initially but he signed the long term deal for security which he talked about. Totally agreed with him not fixing his foot until the season started as well when considering this.

He did end up making like 110 million in career salary which I believe is more than MJ made in NBA salary.

 
Juxtatarot said:
It's funny to watch the highlights of all those Jordan mid-range fade-aways and weird-angled, well defended shots.  In today's game those would be considered terrible shots but he was arguably the best at them.  No doubt if he were a young player today, they would coach that out of him and he would focus on threes and drives.

I was a little disappointed in the Scottie Pippen episode.  They didn't get into the 93-94 season without Jordan, how awesome Pippen was that year, and the drama throughout including refusing to enter the last 1.8 seconds of the playoff game against the Knicks because Phil Jackson drew up a shot for Toni Kukoc (which Kukoc hit).  But I guess this is mostly about Jordan so they got to cut stuff.
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I had forgotten how sweet his jump shot looked. Not as pretty a ball flight, high arc bombs like today's gunners, but his setup, release, follow through so nice.

 
The General said:
He was underpaid initially but he signed the long term deal for security which he talked about. Totally agreed with him not fixing his foot until the season started as well when considering this.

He did end up making like 110 million in career salary which I believe is more than MJ made in NBA salary.
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Yea he raked it in after he left the bulls.   I had forgot too he signed a decent contract with the bulls to end his career too.

 
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