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***Official "The Last Dance" The MJ/Chicago Bulls Dynasty 10 Part Mini-Series Thread*** (2 Viewers)

Summer Wheat said:
I was jacked to watch this as this was a before my time, but MJ is not coming off real well.  Not sure he was the person people thought he was..but is any athlete or actor?  To pull strings to keep other players off the Dream Team is not cool at all. 

Plus Mike has not aged well and look more like Charles Barkley now.  My dad said that it was that "High Life" does to you.
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Like you said, before your time. Everyone who was a NBA fan knows what Jordan was. 

The Pistons sole purpose was to injure Jordan. I have zero qualms about him keeping Thomas off the Dream Team. 

 
Capella said:
Uh huh. Now drop Lebron into that 80s-early 90s NBA. With a bunch of produce department employees trying to guard him. 
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I wonder how many athletic 6'10" big men were passed over in the 80s and 90s because teams would rather have a 7'2" Will Perdue?

 
Watched the first 2 episodes with my 12-year-old daughter who is very much into basketball and today's NBA.  She had not seen much of Jordan until this series.  She was in awe of his moves and his competitive drive.  We watched until 10pm last night.  When the episode was done, she quietly got up from the couch and left the room.  A few minutes later I heard a basketball dribbling outside.  The garage light was turned on so that she could see the hoop.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
C'mon. This is just ignorant. The Bulls alone had three guys that could have guarded Lebron. 
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That team was 96-98, and probably the greatest team of all-time. A definite outlier, and I really doubt Pippen would be able to physically hold up to Lebron over 40 minutes. Rodman would have been interesting. 
 

If you think John Salley or Larry Bird or James Worthy would have been able to even somewhat slow him down then I don’t know what to tell you. 

 
Capella said:
That team was 96-98, and probably the greatest team of all-time. A definite outlier, and I really doubt Pippen would be able to physically hold up to Lebron over 40 minutes. Rodman would have been interesting. 
 

If you think John Salley or Larry Bird or James Worthy would have been able to even somewhat slow him down then I don’t know what to tell you. 
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Without question, Dennis Rodman could guard Lebron.  With ease.  Lebron doesn't have the mental tenacity to deal with Rodman and his defensive tactics.  He would be in his shirt from baseline to baseline.

 
Capella said:
That team was 96-98, and probably the greatest team of all-time. A definite outlier, and I really doubt Pippen would be able to physically hold up to Lebron over 40 minutes. Rodman would have been interesting. 
 

If you think John Salley or Larry Bird or James Worthy would have been able to even somewhat slow him down then I don’t know what to tell you. 
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Shhhhhhhhhhhhh!!  Talk like this will get you labeled an  MJ hater.

 
Capella said:
That team was 96-98, and probably the greatest team of all-time. A definite outlier, and I really doubt Pippen would be able to physically hold up to Lebron over 40 minutes. Rodman would have been interesting. 
 

If you think John Salley or Larry Bird or James Worthy would have been able to even somewhat slow him down then I don’t know what to tell you. 
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Not sure why you cherry pick names? Michael Cooper would have likely guarded Labron, not Worthy. I also believe McHale would have defended him rather than Bird. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Not sure why you cherry pick names? Michael Cooper would have likely guarded Labron, not Worthy. I also believe McHale would have defended him rather than Bird. 
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Both of them would have got tossed in the trash can. McHale guarding Lebron  :lmao:  Come on man. 

 
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Is this where we pretend that the Showtime Lakers and Larry's Celtics played a lot of defense?  I must have imagined those 145-133 type games that happen with them on a regular basis. :lol:

 
Cjw_55106 said:
C'mon. This is just ignorant. The Bulls alone had three guys that could have guarded Lebron. 
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The Bill Laimbeer that was an "enforcer" in the 80s?  He was one inch shorter and 1 pound lighter than Dirk Nowitski.  LeBron would've made mince meat of the Bad Boy Pistons at his size and athleticism.

 
Lebron playing in the 80's would have been like Wilt playing in the 60's. 

You know why the Pistons basically had to tackle Jordan to keep him from scoring? Because they couldn't physically stop him from getting to the basket without doing so. Now add 2 inches and 40 lbs to that (plus the development of new moves like the Eurostep that really weren't part of the game back then). It would have been a bloodbath. LOL at Kevin McHale guarding him.

Jordan is the greater player (you have to factor eras in. Plus obviously titles) but if you plopped current Lebron into that time period, nobody would have had a prayer.  At the same time, Jordan would have thrived in today's NBA due to the increased freedom of movement.

 
TLEF316 said:
Jordan is the greater player (you have to factor eras in. Plus obviously titles) but if you plopped current Lebron into that time period, nobody would have had a prayer.  At the same time, Jordan would have thrived in today's NBA due to the increased freedom of movement.
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I agree with all of this. Jordan did have the benefit of two elite hall of famers on his side, while Bron spent most of his career with scraps in Cleveland. However, a lot of that was the fault of GM Lebron so that has to be accounted for too. 

 
TLEF316 said:
Lebron playing in the 80's would have been like Wilt playing in the 60's. 

You know why the Pistons basically had to tackle Jordan to keep him from scoring? Because they couldn't physically stop him from getting to the basket without doing so. Now add 2 inches and 40 lbs to that (plus the development of new moves like the Eurostep that really weren't part of the game back then). It would have been a bloodbath. LOL at Kevin McHale guarding him.

Jordan is the greater player (you have to factor eras in. Plus obviously titles) but if you plopped current Lebron into that time period, nobody would have had a prayer.  At the same time, Jordan would have thrived in today's NBA due to the increased freedom of movement.
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If Jordan played in the 60s when Wilt scored 100, he could have scored as much as he wanted. Moving players into other eras simply doesnt work. 

 
Capella said:
I agree with all of this. Jordan did have the benefit of two elite hall of famers on his side, while Bron spent most of his career with scraps in Cleveland. However, a lot of that was the fault of GM Lebron so that has to be accounted for too. 
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I think some get so hung up on titles won that they miss the nuances.  Jordan probably is the greatest player ever (he was a force of nature and his will to win was insane), but his style itself was much flashier than LeBron's (shooting guard vs small forward), so he is naturally going to have much greater highlights, and many fall victim to the flashier moments.  Heck, do highlight reels of Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, and Bryant's would be far more entertaining to watch, but many would argue that Duncan was the better all-timer, although it is pretty close. 

 
I know they let more go back then that would be fouls today. Probably rightfully so.

Just tough to drop guys here and there

 
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Krause is so fascinating. For as unlikable as he his and his many screw-ups, he made some great calls.

Looking back, the hubris makes sense. In the midst of that much success, it's not uncommon for people to overestimate their own impact. Especially for a little Napoleon fella like Krause.

So wild that Krause plucked a hippie coach out of Puerto Rico that nobody wanted, liked him so much he fired a pretty good coach coming off an ECF run, won 6 titles, and then somehow absolutely destroyed that relationship.

 
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pollardsvision said:
Krause is so fascinating. For as unlikable as he his and his many screw-ups, he made some great calls.

Looking back, the hubris makes sense. In the midst of that much success, it's not uncommon for people to overestimate their own impact. 

So wild that Krause plucked a hippie coach out of Puerto Rico that nobody wanted, liked him so much he fired a pretty good coach coming off an ECF run, won 6 titles, and then somehow absolutely destroyed that relationship.
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I read an article on Toni Kukoc where Kukoc was sad that Krause is getting such a bad rap in this and wishes he was around to defend himself.

The only thing I don't really like about this series is that they spent a bit too much time trashing Krause in the beginning.  It flies in the face of everything that comes after it.  Pippen, Phil Jackson, Rodman, and Kukoc (although the documentary hasn't gotten there yet)...all Krause acquistiions.  Krause built the team.

I think what they are trying to do is set the stage properly for Last Dance by blaming it all on Krause..but to me Krause knew this was the end.  That team was not going to win another championship.  He hit the rebuild button and it might have worked a few years later if not for the Jay Williams injury.  

All you have to do is look at the key players after this season.  After that season, Rodman was finished.  Pippen had a few decent years left, but mostly he just wanted a payday, which didn't fit into the Bulls strategy.

Could Jordan have played another year? Sure.  But it just didn't all line up for that to happen.  I'm glad Jordan went out on top personally (not counting the Wizards year)

Also, I bet if Phil is being honest, he was ready to leave too.  I'm not sure if he had his eyes on the Lakers just yet when he left, but he knew there would be another opportunity with a younger team.  Holding that team of veterans together probably exhausted him and I doubt he would have wanted to come back either.

 
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Capella said:
I really doubt Pippen would be able to physically hold up to Lebron over 40 minutes. Rodman would have been interesting. 
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When you’re talking about all time greats like Lebron, they are going to be impossible to stop in just about any era. LeBron would have been a better version of Magic back then. So yeah, Pippen/Rodman/various others from that era wouldn’t have locked him down. But the argument that none of the elite defenders from that period would have given him serious problems is just as ridiculous. LeBron has been slowed by much worse players at times in the modern era. 

 
shader said:
I think what they are trying to do is set the stage properly for Last Dance by blaming it all on Krause..but to me Krause knew this was the end. 
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Howard Beck had an interview with Sam Smith on his podcast (Full 48) who had some interesting thoughts on this. Basically said Krause had a lot of responsibility, but at the same time if everyone else had wanted to run it back, they would have. 

 
Synthesizer said:
Watched the first 2 episodes with my 12-year-old daughter who is very much into basketball and today's NBA.  She had not seen much of Jordan until this series.  She was in awe of his moves and his competitive drive.  We watched until 10pm last night.  When the episode was done, she quietly got up from the couch and left the room.  A few minutes later I heard a basketball dribbling outside.  The garage light was turned on so that she could see the hoop.
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This is awesome.  Basically the same way I was after watching "Come Fly With Me" about 98 times on VHS.  

"I wanna be like Mike" was a real tangible thing.

 
thecatch said:
When you’re talking about all time greats like Lebron, they are going to be impossible to stop in just about any era. LeBron would have been a better version of Magic back then. So yeah, Pippen/Rodman/various others from that era wouldn’t have locked him down. But the argument that none of the elite defenders from that period would have given him serious problems is just as ridiculous. LeBron has been slowed by much worse players at times in the modern era. 
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I think that both Jordan and James are fantastic players and likely the two best in NBA history. I think that both players would have been very good in the others' era, but there is some unknown there. The main unknowns are James with rougher physical play, which could lower his output, and Jordan with less mid-range play, which could lower his output. But I guess I feel more confident that Jordan would adjust to longer shots than James would adjust to rougher play, although that's not saying he wouldn't. 

Of course, recency bias may be kicking in after watching Jordan against the Pistons on the Last Dance and re-watching Game 1 of the Portland series on YouTube. :D

 
Finally caught up last night with all 4 episodes.  Huge fan of Lebron and realize it's tough to compare the two given circumstances, different eras, athletes around them, etc.  I consider him top 2 with Jordan.  

That said, loved watching the footage.  I was fortunate to watch Jordan play at UNC and with the Bulls.  I didn't care for UNC in high school (79-82) but Jordan and Worthy made me a fan.  This show has reminded me how much of a competitor he was.  Tenacious and refused to lose.  Guy was an assassin and the other team knew it.  As has been said, the Pistons beat the #### out of him.  I hated them with passion during their run.  But just another indication of how Jordan changed the game.  

I find the comparison to Lebron tough to argue.  Both are great and Mt. Rushmore guys.  Ball in hand with 5 seconds to go, I'll take Michael all day.  

 
Deepster said:
Without question, Dennis Rodman could guard Lebron.  With ease.  Lebron doesn't have the mental tenacity to deal with Rodman and his defensive tactics.  He would be in his shirt from baseline to baseline.
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Correct

Recent history is blinding to some of these young ones.

 
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Jayrok said:
The music in this documentary has been cool as well, imo.  So far is been a fun ride.  
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From a recent Variety piece about Alan Parsons, the writer of Sirius, the Bulls theme music during that time...

Variety

Variety: I don’t suppose you ever actually crossed paths with Michael Jordan?

AP: There was another documentary about Michael in 2000 called “Michael Jordan to the Max,” and they used an electronic version of “Sirius” by another artist as the theme. There was a launch party for that movie in Chicago, and I was there. Michael was surrounded by millions of people looking to shake hands with him and say hi. Our eyes did meet, and I shook his hand and said, “Michael, you probably don’t know who I am, but I wrote your walk-on music.” And he said, “Oh, nice to meet you, man” —almost like it hadn’t sunk in.
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BroncoFreak_2K3 said:
From a recent Variety piece about Alan Parsons, the writer of Sirius, the Bulls theme music during that time...

“Michael, you probably don’t know who I am, but I wrote your walk-on music.” And he said, “Oh, nice to meet you, man” —almost like it hadn’t sunk in.
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That's awesome.  He met (meets) so many people I wonder if later that day did Jordan realize and think, huh... that was the Alan Parsons guy.  

 
Jayrok said:
The music in this documentary has been cool as well, imo.  So far is been a fun ride.  
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How Ya Like Me Now? was brilliant.

As was Partyman from the Michael Keeton Batman movie (All Hail The New King In Town).  Such an obscure song, I'd forgotten all about it.  But it fit perfectly.

 
Capella said:
I’m almost 43. I saw MJ’s entire career post 1990. Lebron is extremely close to him. 
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Agreed.  It's not as simple(-minded) as "6-0 vs 3-6," like some believe.  They are by far the two best basketball players I have ever seen (I cannot comment on players I never saw play, meaning pre-80s), and whoever is in 3rd place is a distant 3rd.

 
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So grateful for this series. I moved to Chicago in 1992 and was lucky enough to go to some Bulls games at meet MJ a few times while working at on the top private golf clubs in the area. I forgot about some of the details of this decade like how they swept Detroit for their first eastern conference final.   

This has been so ####### good and can't wait for Sunday!

 
Just an great example of how different the game was played in Jordan's time:

That 1986 Bulls-Celtics playoff game, the Jordan 63 point game.  135-131

3-pointers:  Bulls - 0 for 2 (Jordan didn't attempt one), Celtics 3 for 9.

 
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Reactions: Ned
Can we just all agree that it’s impossible to compare eras? You can’t just take Lebron and put him in the 80s/90s because they didn’t have the same nutrition and workout routines and knowledge we have now which means LeBron wouldn’t have had those benefits just like those guys defending him back then didn’t. And Jordan WOULD have those benefits today. 

But Jordan would have to adjust to a game where his midrange jumper was obsolete while Lebron’s ability to drive and play underneath would have been even more valuable than it is now. 

They’re both incredible players and dominated their era. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
Can we just all agree that it’s impossible to compare eras? You can’t just take Lebron and put him in the 80s/90s because they didn’t have the same nutrition and workout routines and knowledge we have now which means LeBron wouldn’t have had those benefits just like those guys defending him back then didn’t. And Jordan WOULD have those benefits today. 

But Jordan would have to adjust to a game where his midrange jumper was obsolete while Lebron’s ability to drive and play underneath would have been even more valuable than it is now. 

They’re both incredible players and dominated their era. 
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Don't forget about "load management"

:lmao:

 
Hugh Jass said:
Just an great example of how different the game was played in Jordan's time:

That 1986 Bulls-Celtics playoff game, the Jordan 63 point game.  135-131

3-pointers:  Bulls - 0 for 2 (Jordan didn't attempt one), Celtics 3 for 9.
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There's a series on IMDB called "NBA Hardwood Classics" that shows complete games from the 80's and 90's.  These are complete original replays of conference playoffs and finals games as well as other regular season games of interest.  I watched a couple games last night - game 7 of the '82 Eastern Conference finals (76ers v Celtics) and the first game of the season in 1996 between the Bucks and 76ers, in which rookies Ray Allen and Allen Iverson played each other in their first NBA games.  There were a few striking differences, but one was the number of mid-range jumpers these players took.  Very few 3s, and an alarming number of long 2 point shots.  My son was watching for a while and saw Danny Ainge take 2 long jumpers, one step inside the 3 point line.  Even when he was in 6th grade that would  have got him a dress down from his coach.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
There's a series on IMDB called "NBA Hardwood Classics" that shows complete games from the 80's and 90's.  These are complete original replays of conference playoffs and finals games as well as other regular season games of interest.  I watched a couple games last night - game 7 of the '82 Eastern Conference finals (76ers v Celtics) and the first game of the season in 1996 between the Bucks and 76ers, in which rookies Ray Allen and Allen Iverson played each other in their first NBA games.  There were a few striking differences, but one was the number of mid-range jumpers these players took.  Very few 3s, and an alarming number of long 2 point shots.  My son was watching for a while and saw Danny Ainge take 2 long jumpers, one step inside the 3 point line.  Even when he was in 6th grade that would  have got him a dress down from his coach.

 Check out you tube channel Torontos, a lot of 80’s nba games on there.
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I'm in the Jordan >> James camp, but also in the today's players >> yesteryear's players camp.
 

I think the younger generation is getting a look right now at just how different Jordan was. Lebron James is great, but he's never had that air of invincibility that Jordan had for so long. Jordan is still the most perfect basketball player I've ever seen play.

 
ESPN made one huge mistake in this whole thing. Each episode should have been 90 minutes long. Director's cut Blu-ray.

LeBron is good, but put him in the 80s/90s with the rules of the 80s/90s, LeBron is similar to Karl Malone. Great, but no championships. How to defend him back then? Look how teams defended the stars back then. LeBron's best friend would have been the floor he would be getting up from there so often.

The game has changed too much for comparison sake but LeBron does not do back then what he has done today. Karl Malone is his equivalent.

 
Challenge Everything said:
ESPN made one huge mistake in this whole thing. Each episode should have been 90 minutes long. Director's cut Blu-ray.

LeBron is good, but put him in the 80s/90s with the rules of the 80s/90s, LeBron is similar to Karl Malone. Great, but no championships. How to defend him back then? Look how teams defended the stars back then. LeBron's best friend would have been the floor he would be getting up from there so often.

The game has changed too much for comparison sake but LeBron does not do back then what he has done today. Karl Malone is his equivalent.
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LeBron no championships? Wat?

 
Challenge Everything said:
ESPN made one huge mistake in this whole thing. Each episode should have been 90 minutes long. Director's cut Blu-ray.

LeBron is good, but put him in the 80s/90s with the rules of the 80s/90s, LeBron is similar to Karl Malone. Great, but no championships. How to defend him back then? Look how teams defended the stars back then. LeBron's best friend would have been the floor he would be getting up from there so often.

The game has changed too much for comparison sake but LeBron does not do back then what he has done today. Karl Malone is his equivalent.
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:lmao:  ridiculous 

 
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