push the tush play - horrible (Philly Fans Cling Desperately to Rugby Play In It's Final Year) (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

I mean, it even says "Ignored Member" has posted, but I can't see it. I love it.

Please don't. If you have a member on ignore, that's fine. No need to insult them by making sure everyone knows you have them on ignore.

 

[Insein]

As a Hurts owner, I think this play is the best play ever designed.

 

[FBG Moderator]

I hate it. It used to be illegal.

Should still be illegal. Terrible.

do you ever get tired of posting the same thing 25 times a day?

Not as tired as I get of watching this chickenshit play.

you seem fun

More fun than watching the Eagles.

Yet you still do it.

You got me there. Watching football and talking about it in the football forum. Maybe they should play more football and less of this push play BS.

Damn, you sound really emotionally damaged from this legal football play.

Be a lot more cool to other posters than that.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

good, hope you enjoy another Eagles game of being upset afterwards and rushing to the computer to say you don't like the play! See ya then!

This seems like an odd thing to post after almost all of your posts during the game were complaining about other posters. And your team was playing

 

[need2know]

They hate us cause they ain't us

 

[FarFromHome]

Didn't know this play was such an explosive topic on these boards. Don't really understand why. It's a highly successful play. Stop the play. My only concern was the injury factor but someone's specific response to that seems logical. Hurts is huge for QB. Why not use that?

 

[ohio#1eaglesfan]

Waaaahhhhhhh!

 

[JohnnyU]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

 

[Mitchie]

Didn't know this play was such an explosive topic on these boards. Don't really understand why. It's a highly successful play. Stop the play. My only concern was the injury factor but someone's specific response to that seems logical. Hurts is huge for QB. Why not use that?

well the NFL did discuss banning in the offseason so not a crazy discussion to have

 

[need2know]

Didn't know this play was such an explosive topic on these boards. Don't really understand why. It's a highly successful play. Stop the play. My only concern was the injury factor but someone's specific response to that seems logical. Hurts is huge for QB. Why not use that?

well the NFL did discuss banning in the offseason so not a crazy discussion to have

and they decided not to

 

[DeaLerZ]

If you don’t like the big QB who can squat 700 lbs scoring every game on the 1yd line. than get a big qb yourself, or have your 250lb RB take the snap and have your lineman push him, or figure out how to stop him

I feel like all the teams who lost to Hurts last year complained…

It is cheap absolutely, but you use what you got. It shouldn’t be banned though

 

[need2know]

If you don’t like the big QB who can squat 700 lbs scoring every game on the 1yd line. than get a big qb yourself, or have your 250lb RB take the snap and have your lineman push him, or figure out how to stop him

I feel like all the teams who lost to Hurts last year complained…

It is cheap absolutely, but you use what you got. It shouldn’t be banned though

i think it was only a couple teams who cried. they were heard and then corrected because they were wrong

 

[Amused to Death]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

I agree with you, and I've been very consistent with it. Don't just ban pushing the QB, ban pushing all ball carriers. People only seem to complain about the QB though.

 

[Amused to Death]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

 

[ChiefD]

So for you guys with an actual background in football:

I posted this in the game thread because I noticed Hurts ran that play to the left of the center every time. So for Philly fans who watch their every game, do they always run it left?

My basic understanding of line play is the lines are trying to go as low as possible for leverage. For you guys that have played football, does it make any sense for the defensive line to just stand up and let the o-line just fall on the ground and they try to meet Hurts in the vacated spot where the o-line just was?

 

[Mitchie]

Didn't know this play was such an explosive topic on these boards. Don't really understand why. It's a highly successful play. Stop the play. My only concern was the injury factor but someone's specific response to that seems logical. Hurts is huge for QB. Why not use that?

well the NFL did discuss banning in the offseason so not a crazy discussion to have

and they decided not to

correct

 

[ohio#1eaglesfan]

So for you guys with an actual background in football:

I posted this in the game thread because I noticed Hurts ran that play to the left of the center every time. So for Philly fans who watch they every game, do they always run it left?

My basic understanding of line play is the lines are trying to go as low as possible for leverage. For you guys that have played football, does it make any sense for the defensive line to just stand up and let the o-line just fall on the ground and they try to meet Hurts in the vacated spot where the o-line just was?

Or why don’t they line up linebackers behind the DTs and push them forward?

 

[satch]

What’s the controversy here? It’s still 11 on 11, right? The team that can push the pile forward wins the battle. If anything, the offense is at a slight disadvantage as one of their 11 has to hold and protect the ball.

 

[JohnnyU]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

What about the part I bolded? " I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick,"

 

[TLEF316]

The NFL is basically only going to change rules for 2 reasons....

1) To prevent injury (primarily to offensive skill players)
2) To stop things that make high scoring offensive football (primarily in the passing game) more challenging or less prevalent.

Hypothetically, lets say the eagles decided/figured out that they could just run their RB's for a boring 3 yards on first-third down every play, push Hurts forward for a 1 yard first down on every 4th and keep moving the chains all the way to the end zone on every possession. They'd score a TD every time but it would be super boring to watch and hurt the entertainment value of the product. And if that happened, the NFL would find a way to outlaw it. But that's not what happening here. Even with the "cheap play" helping them convert in short yardage, the Eagles still rely heavily on one of the best WR tandems in the league. They throw the ball plenty most weeks, so the push play is just a tool to keep that unit on the the field for longer (even if he leads to half a dozen "boring plays" every game). And the NFL loves that.

Would the league prefer they dont do it down by the goal line? (since a big pile isn't a very exciting scoring play) Probably. But for most of the unwashed masses watching the NFL, points are points.

 

[satch]

Why doesn’t the defense simply keep jumping the snap and slamming/pushing the pile? Sure they’ll get penalized, but the ball is already at the goal line. Half the distance to the goal is absolutely meaningless. The offensive line and QB will eventually get sick of being mauled and hammered repeatedly and the offense will eventually have to line up differently and run a different play.

 

[Anarchy99]

Why doesn’t the defense simply keep jumping the snap and slamming/pushing the pile? Sure they’ll get penalized, but the ball is already at the goal line. Half the distance to the goal is absolutely meaningless. The offensive line will eventually get sick of being mauled and hammered repeatedly and the offense will eventually have to line up differently and run a different play.

I'm guessing that the defense could get away with that once, maybe twice, before the refs would start throwing flags for personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct (especially if the same thing happened already in the game). If there would be the level of mauling or hammering as you describe, there would potentially be fines, ejections, or suspensions as well. If you were a top DE, maybe you wouldn't be all that interested in forking over $50K for a fine and a game check for $1M for a suspension.

 

[cheese]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

 

[TheWinz]

The problem with the push play is it's not a problem. The only people that really have a problem with it are folks that play FF, because it only benefits one player on the field.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

I think most people in here lobbying for a change agree that they should change the rule so that nobody can be pushed forward — whether WR, RB, TE, QB…..

 

[Anarchy99]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Most teams don't have 3 Pro Bowl / All Pro O-linemen. I agree that with practice, most teams should be able to become more proficient at it (maybe not as good as the Eagles). We'll see if opponents figure out a way to get a better angle to get a helmet and thumping on Hurts (even if they still can't stop the play). I think PHI would run it a lot less if Hurts ended up missing some time due to running the push the pile play (concussion, leg injury, throwing shoulder injury, hand injury, etc.).

 

[Proteus]

It’s a team sport in the truest sense of the term. I’m good with linemen carrying a corpse across the goal line if he’s one of the 11 with a live ball in his possession.

 

[efactor]

Some NFL rules are crazy. You can’t “pull” a runner forward but it’s OK to “push” him forward.

It’s aiding the runner either way, so what difference does it make?

 

[cheese]

The problem with the push play is it's not a problem. The only people that really have a problem with it are folks that play FF, because it only benefits one player on the field.

At what point would you care? If they did it on 3rd and short? If they did it on 2nd and short? If they could do it for 3 yards at a time and did it on 1st down?

There is a reason we like football and don't watch rugby. It's not interesting which isn't the same as saying it's not effective.

 

[Statorama]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Most teams don't have 3 Pro Bowl / All Pro O-linemen. I agree that with practice, most teams should be able to become more proficient at it (maybe not as good as the Eagles). We'll see if opponents figure out a way to get a better angle to get a helmet and thumping on Hurts (even if they still can't stop the play). I think PHI would run it a lot less if Hurts ended up missing some time due to running the push the pile play (concussion, leg injury, throwing shoulder injury, hand injury, etc.).

One of these days some neanderthal DL is going to get frustrated and start twisting ankles backwards.

 

[satch]

Why doesn’t the defense simply keep jumping the snap and slamming/pushing the pile? Sure they’ll get penalized, but the ball is already at the goal line. Half the distance to the goal is absolutely meaningless. The offensive line will eventually get sick of being mauled and hammered repeatedly and the offense will eventually have to line up differently and run a different play.

I'm guessing that the defense could get away with that once, maybe twice, before the refs would start throwing flags for personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct (especially if the same thing happened already in the game). If there would be the level of mauling or hammering as you describe, there would potentially be fines, ejections, or suspensions as well. If you were a top DE, maybe you wouldn't be all that interested in forking over $50K for a fine and a game check for $1M for a suspension.

You bring up the obvious potential hazard with this defensive strategy, but I’m not suggesting anything excessive. By “mauled and hammered” I just mean the offensive line/QB getting knocked on their butt repeatedly.

At what point can the refs justify deeming it unsportsmanlike? It’s just strategic gamesmanship, no different than intentionally taking a delay of game to give the punter some extra room, except this intentional penalty is offsides.

What if there was very little contact at all? The defense simply jumps the snap until the offense lines up in a different formation. This strategy doesn’t violate the intent of the rule any more so than an intentional delay of game. Why is that not considered unsportsmanlike? Is there a rule that stipulates a team can take an intentional penalty but only X number of times?

For the record, Hurts is my QB in two leagues, so I love the play for selfish reasons. That said, jumping the snap repeatedly is a sensible defensive strategy. The penalty is meaningless and eventually you’ll either time it perfectly or the offense will call a different play.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Because it's not about the play, it's about the Eagles.

Other teams were 0 for 2 trying it this week. The Eagles were 100%. But the Eagles were also 100% on plays where they ran the ball with a RB on short yardage (surely fantasy players aren't forgetting how easily Swift waltzed into the endzone from the 1 yard line).

It may be better than handing the ball off, but only slightly better, and only if you have an absolute hoss of a QB that can squat with the equivalent of two offensive linemen on his back.

The Eagles converted 89% in short yardage last year, which was 1st in the league by a lot. But in their Super Bowl year, the Rams converted at 87% in short yardage without the push the pile play, so it's not like it's out of line for one team to be very good and well above the league average in short yardage.

So the question is, are the Eagles a team that would be converting an average 72% if they ran traditional plays but they're converting 89% because of the push the pile play, or are they already a team that would be converting way above the league average and they're just slightly better with push the pile?

Given how much other teams have failed to copy the play, how other teams that have tried it have failed, and how Philly has also been good at converting with traditional plays as well, the answer seems obvious to me. They have a great O-line (I mean, did we not see them running down the Vikes gullet even when everyone knew it was coming?) with a hoss at QB.

Like I said during the offseason, it took the entire league like 4 days to copy the wildcat when Miami ran it effectively, and that was a much more complicated thing to copy than this. If it were about the play, and not the players, everyone would have already been doing it a year ago.

 

[Amused to Death]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

What about the part I bolded? " I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick,"

And I answer with ok, make it a penalty to assist ALL ball carriers, not just a QB. Would be ok with a flag for pushing a WR over the line to gain? We see that all the time too.

 

[Amused to Death]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Other teams have tried, there were 2 failed attempts last week (apparently, I didn't see them). It takes the right O-line and a QB powerful enough to get over the line.

 

[Amused to Death]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

I think most people in here lobbying for a change agree that they should change the rule so that nobody can be pushed forward — whether WR, RB, TE, QB…..

Really? Because I haven't seen the outcry when a WR or RB is pushed. But this thread sure gets bumped every time Hurts is pushed over the goal line.

 

[cheese]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Because it's not about the play, it's about the Eagles.

Other teams were 0 for 2 trying it this week. The Eagles were 100%. But the Eagles were also 100% on plays where they ran the ball with a RB on short yardage (surely fantasy players aren't forgetting how easily Swift waltzed into the endzone from the 1 yard line).

It may be better than handing the ball off, but only slightly better, and only if you have an absolute hoss of a QB that can squat with the equivalent of two offensive linemen on his back.

The Eagles converted 89% in short yardage last year, which was 1st in the league by a lot. But in their Super Bowl year, the Rams converted at 87% in short yardage without the push the pile play, so it's not like it's out of line for one team to be very good and well above the league average in short yardage.

So the question is, are the Eagles a team that would be converting an average 72% if they ran traditional plays but they're converting 89% because of the push the pile play, or are they already a team that would be converting way above the league average and they're just slightly better with push the pile?

Given how much other teams have failed to copy the play, how other teams that have tried it have failed, and how Philly has also been good at converting with traditional plays as well, the answer seems obvious to me. They have a great O-line (I mean, did we not see them running down the Vikes gullet even when everyone knew it was coming?) with a hoss at QB.

Like I said during the offseason, it took the entire league like 4 days to copy the wildcat when Miami ran it effectively, and that was a much more complicated thing to copy than this. If it were about the play, and not the players, everyone would have already been doing it a year ago.

Not saying you're wrong, but what were the 2 examples of someone else trying it and failing?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I hate it like everyone else because it's lame and unstoppable, but I really can't figure out why more teams aren't copying this. The ability to get 1-3 yards 100% of the time when you need to is very valuable. There is nothing they're doing that other teams couldn't replicate with their own personnel. Hurts might be strong, but that's not why this play works. Maybe other teams don't want to allocate the practice time to getting it right, but they should.

Because it's not about the play, it's about the Eagles.

Other teams were 0 for 2 trying it this week. The Eagles were 100%. But the Eagles were also 100% on plays where they ran the ball with a RB on short yardage (surely fantasy players aren't forgetting how easily Swift waltzed into the endzone from the 1 yard line).

It may be better than handing the ball off, but only slightly better, and only if you have an absolute hoss of a QB that can squat with the equivalent of two offensive linemen on his back.

The Eagles converted 89% in short yardage last year, which was 1st in the league by a lot. But in their Super Bowl year, the Rams converted at 87% in short yardage without the push the pile play, so it's not like it's out of line for one team to be very good and well above the league average in short yardage.

So the question is, are the Eagles a team that would be converting an average 72% if they ran traditional plays but they're converting 89% because of the push the pile play, or are they already a team that would be converting way above the league average and they're just slightly better with push the pile?

Given how much other teams have failed to copy the play, how other teams that have tried it have failed, and how Philly has also been good at converting with traditional plays as well, the answer seems obvious to me. They have a great O-line (I mean, did we not see them running down the Vikes gullet even when everyone knew it was coming?) with a hoss at QB.

Like I said during the offseason, it took the entire league like 4 days to copy the wildcat when Miami ran it effectively, and that was a much more complicated thing to copy than this. If it were about the play, and not the players, everyone would have already been doing it a year ago.

Not saying you're wrong, but what were the 2 examples of someone else trying it and failing?

Colts and Jags.

 

[Amused to Death]

The problem with the push play is it's not a problem. The only people that really have a problem with it are folks that play FF, because it only benefits one player on the field.

At what point would you care? If they did it on 3rd and short? If they did it on 2nd and short? If they could do it for 3 yards at a time and did it on 1st down?

There is a reason we like football and don't watch rugby. It's not interesting which isn't the same as saying it's not effective.

Would it bother you just as much if it was a RB running 8 yards and slamming into a pile of bodies on 2nd and inches and being pushed from behind? Does it bother you when you see a gang of O and D players pushing a RB in opposite directions near the line to gain? How about when a QB dives over the top of the pile?

 

[Loipz]

The problem with the push play is it's not a problem. The only people that really have a problem with it are folks that play FF, because it only benefits one player on the field.

At what point would you care? If they did it on 3rd and short? If they did it on 2nd and short? If they could do it for 3 yards at a time and did it on 1st down?

There is a reason we like football and don't watch rugby. It's not interesting which isn't the same as saying it's not effective.

Would it bother you just as much if it was a RB running 8 yards and slamming into a pile of bodies on 2nd and inches and being pushed from behind? Does it bother you when you see a gang of O and D players pushing a RB in opposite directions near the line to gain? How about when a QB dives over the top of the pile?

Why don’t they line up the RB and push him instead? They’re a lot cheaper and on the slight off chance the QB could get injured, RBs are paid considerably less. What if eventually they just have some tush push specialist that would be awful for fantasy. Like a Taysom Hill type

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

If you don’t like the big QB who can squat 700 lbs scoring every game on the 1yd line. than get a big qb yourself, or have your 250lb RB take the snap and have your lineman push him, or figure out how to stop him

I feel like all the teams who lost to Hurts last year complained…

It is cheap absolutely, but you use what you got. It shouldn’t be banned though

logic fail. respectfully disagree. the play provides leverage that is philosophically opposed by the rulebook. this is not rugby, and goalline formation is not a scrum.

 

[Amused to Death]

The problem with the push play is it's not a problem. The only people that really have a problem with it are folks that play FF, because it only benefits one player on the field.

At what point would you care? If they did it on 3rd and short? If they did it on 2nd and short? If they could do it for 3 yards at a time and did it on 1st down?

There is a reason we like football and don't watch rugby. It's not interesting which isn't the same as saying it's not effective.

Would it bother you just as much if it was a RB running 8 yards and slamming into a pile of bodies on 2nd and inches and being pushed from behind? Does it bother you when you see a gang of O and D players pushing a RB in opposite directions near the line to gain? How about when a QB dives over the top of the pile?

Why don’t they line up the RB and push him instead? They’re a lot cheaper and on the slight off chance the QB could get injured, RBs are paid considerably less. What if eventually they just have some tush push specialist that would be awful for fantasy. Like a Taysom Hill type

Because they have a QB with the leg strength to be successful at it. He's probably stronger than any RB on the team.

 

[Anarchy99]

Why doesn’t the defense simply keep jumping the snap and slamming/pushing the pile? Sure they’ll get penalized, but the ball is already at the goal line. Half the distance to the goal is absolutely meaningless. The offensive line will eventually get sick of being mauled and hammered repeatedly and the offense will eventually have to line up differently and run a different play.

I'm guessing that the defense could get away with that once, maybe twice, before the refs would start throwing flags for personal fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct (especially if the same thing happened already in the game). If there would be the level of mauling or hammering as you describe, there would potentially be fines, ejections, or suspensions as well. If you were a top DE, maybe you wouldn't be all that interested in forking over $50K for a fine and a game check for $1M for a suspension.

You bring up the obvious potential hazard with this defensive strategy, but I’m not suggesting anything excessive. By “mauled and hammered” I just mean the offensive line/QB getting knocked on their butt repeatedly.

At what point can the refs justify deeming it unsportsmanlike? It’s just strategic gamesmanship, no different than intentionally taking a delay of game to give the punter some extra room, except this intentional penalty is offsides.

What if there was very little contact at all? The defense simply jumps the snap until the offense lines up in a different formation. This strategy doesn’t violate the intent of the rule any more so than an intentional delay of game. Why is that not considered unsportsmanlike? Is there a rule that stipulates a team can take an intentional penalty but only X number of times?

I can't speak to what would happen in the NFL, but I used to coach youth and school football. No matter what the rules are, the refs have the power to flag players and teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. That penalty has very little definition and is intentionally vague. Here is what the NFL rulebook lists it as: "Any non-contact act contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Unsportsmanlike conduct results in a 15-yard penalty."

I remember a game that I was involved in. We were on the road against our biggest rival. There had been times when skirmishes had broken out, car windows were smashed after games, people had been arrested, and half the town's police force had to be at the game to keep people in line. We were down a TD and had the ball 4th and goal at the 8-yard line with 30 seconds to go. A pass went incomplete, and we turned the ball over on downs. The entire crowd gave us grief and was already in a frenzy about winning the game.

The other team came out in a victory formation to take a kneel down and the game would have been over and the celebration set to begin. Our defense basically just stood at the line and didn't really get into a real formation. Except the QB faked the kneel down, and one of the backs ran a wheel route instead. The guy was wide open as the secondary didn't bother to cover him. The QB overthrew him, or else it would have been an easy 92-yard TD.

The refs threw a flag and ejected their head coach and the QB for unsportsmanlike conduct. They didn't care that there was nothing in the rules that prohibited the team from running that play. (I forget the rules at the time, but IIRC, players and coaches got suspended for a game on their second ejection in a season.) The coaching staff and the refs got into a huge argument, and rather than play out the last few seconds they just declared the game over. The whole thing was really odd.

 

[Amused to Death]

If you don’t like the big QB who can squat 700 lbs scoring every game on the 1yd line. than get a big qb yourself, or have your 250lb RB take the snap and have your lineman push him, or figure out how to stop him

I feel like all the teams who lost to Hurts last year complained…

It is cheap absolutely, but you use what you got. It shouldn’t be banned though

logic fail. respectfully disagree. the play provides leverage that is philosophically opposed by the rulebook. this is not rugby, and goalline formation is not a scrum.

And yet no one cares when its any other position being aided. Ban them all if fans don't like the ball carrier being pushed. Don't single out the QB just because one team is successful.

ETA: and as its been explained by an actual rugby player, this play is NOTHING like rugby. Take it up with @CletiusMaximus if you disagree.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

I think most people in here lobbying for a change agree that they should change the rule so that nobody can be pushed forward — whether WR, RB, TE, QB…..

Really? Because I haven't seen the outcry when a WR or RB is pushed. But this thread sure gets bumped every time Hurts is pushed over the goal line.

It’s been discussed in here multiple times before

 

[Amused to Death]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

I think most people in here lobbying for a change agree that they should change the rule so that nobody can be pushed forward — whether WR, RB, TE, QB…..

Really? Because I haven't seen the outcry when a WR or RB is pushed. But this thread sure gets bumped every time Hurts is pushed over the goal line.

It’s been discussed in here multiple times before

Then I would expect the discussion to be focused more on banning the aid of any ball carrier, at any point on the field. I hope we can all get behind that. Then we can discuss if its fair for the defense to have 6 players pushing the RB backwards but the offense can't join in to push the player forward.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The focus on this particular play is masking the real issue — offensive lineman shouldn’t be able to push a runner forward. Whether on the goalline or in the open field. That’s just stupid, regardless of where it happens.

Someone said this play was once illegal. Is that true? If yes, why was it made legal? I compare it to the play where it is illegal on a field goal kick attempt for a defender to use a lineman as leverage to climb the wall to block a kick, so OL shouldn't be able to push the runner forward. What they have today is rugby as I said earlier.

It used to be a penalty to aid the ball carrier. Then they changed it in 2005 to allow pushing the runner forward (still a flag if you pull the runner). If the league went back to the original rule, I'd be fine with that. What I have an issue with is all the complaining about pushing the QB and wanting that banned. No one wants to stop pushing a WR or a RB over the goal though for some reason - just the QB. And only 1 team is successful in doing it, but for some reason its a problem.

I think most people in here lobbying for a change agree that they should change the rule so that nobody can be pushed forward — whether WR, RB, TE, QB…..

Really? Because I haven't seen the outcry when a WR or RB is pushed. But this thread sure gets bumped every time Hurts is pushed over the goal line.

It’s been discussed in here multiple times before

Then I would expect the discussion to be focused more on banning the aid of any ball carrier, at any point on the field. I hope we can all get behind that. Then we can discuss if its fair for the defense to have 6 players pushing the RB backwards but the offense can't join in to push the player forward.

No disagreement. Far too much fixation on Hurts.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Here's another good example.

Tom Brady expected points per QB sneak attempt vs. the rest of the league

Brady converted 91.1% of QB sneaks on 3rd/4th and 1 for his career. A higher percentage than Hurts. He attempted around 3x as many as the next closest QB over each dataset (IE averaged out for his length of career).

Brady did it with smarts (rushing everyone to the line for a quick snap). Why didn't other teams just copy it? Because they couldn't, just like teams haven't been able to copy the Eagle's success. Why didn't the league just ban rushing to the line for a quick QB sneak before the defense was ready before it became an epidemic? Because there was no reason to. He and his linemen had the tools to run the play, and there was no reason to punish them for being better at it than everyone else.

Same thing for the Eagles here, who would most likely be far and away above the league average on short yardage attempts whether they were pushing the pile or running traditional short yardage plays, something you couldn't say for the Patriots.

 

[Terpman22]

Its insane to me the level of debate this play has. I feel all the arguments about player safety and "well it was illegal before so it should be illegal now" is just masking the actual reason - people just can't stop it and when Hurts keeps the touchdowns, the Swift/Gainwell/Penny owner is missing out. And rival fans also that will find a way to hate on the Eagles regardless. Nothing more, nothing less really.

 

[Amused to Death]

Here's another good example.

Tom Brady expected points per QB sneak attempt vs. the rest of the league

Brady converted 91.1% of QB sneaks on 3rd/4th and 1 for his career. A higher percentage than Hurts. He attempted around 3x as many as the next closest QB over each dataset (IE averaged out for his length of career).

Brady did it with smarts (rushing everyone to the line for a quick snap). Why didn't other teams just copy it? Because they couldn't, just like teams haven't been able to copy the Eagle's success. Why didn't the league just ban rushing to the line for a quick QB sneak before the defense was ready before it became an epidemic? Because there was no reason to. He and his linemen had the tools to run the play, and there was no reason to punish them for being better at it than everyone else.

Same thing for the Eagles here, who would most likely be far and away above the league average on short yardage attempts whether they were pushing the pile or running traditional short yardage plays, something you couldn't say for the Patriots.

And we never once heard someone complain about it being boring. Or say it needed to be banned to save Tom from himself because he *might* get hurt. He was just the best at what he did you either had to stop or compliment him for being good at it.