QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (8 Viewers)

[menobrown]

. Lamar's lack of weapons is a very valid excuse.

I'm saying it's not a very valid excuse. Especially last year.

 

[travdogg]

. Lamar's lack of weapons is a very valid excuse.

I'm saying it's not a very valid excuse. Especially last year.

But why?

 

[Chaka]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

Kelce>>Andrews

And Lamar's splits with and without Bateman are pretty telling.

 

[menobrown]

. Lamar's lack of weapons is a very valid excuse.

I'm saying it's not a very valid excuse. Especially last year.

But why?

Because weapons are not his issue.

 

[menobrown]

he has done it with a pretty meh WR group (though a top-notch TE)

So like what Mahomes has been working with all year.

Kelce>>Andrews

And Lamar's splits with and without Bateman are pretty telling.

I don't know you'd be saying that about Kelce if the QB's were different. I know Andrews has had the best run of his career without Lamar which is a little telling.

I do think his weapons this year once Batemen went down was a problem. I don't think the lack of weapons have been in in the past and I'd say Andrews, Brown and Bateman was actually pretty good last year.

 

[humpback]

This would be spectacular news for the Ravens, and Ravens fans.

If Burrow signs a new deal, Ravens have their non-Deshaun Watson data point. They can go to Lamar's mom and say, "this is the guarantees that are being paid."

It would only be bad for the Ravens if Burrow signed a fully guaranteed deal. Considering that Burrow is employed by the Cincinnati Bengals, I think we can pencil in NO on that one.

Love the deadpan "go to Lamar's mom and say...". Seriously though, I think this is the main reason why a deal hasn't already been agreed to, and one of if not the biggest obstacles going forward.

Say Burrow does sign a deal first- Lamar (and his mom) will then say "I deserve more than that", and the Ravens, rightfully so, have to say "no, you aren't as good as he is". An agent acts as a buffer for these conversations, without one it's much more likely to get personal and ugly.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I think someone keeps mentioning one of the seven fallacies of logic in this thread pertaining to the strawman fallacy.
That one applies here

I think I said the Bengals weren't fully guaranteeing his deal. IMO.

You seem to disagree.

The last top six NFL QB contracts signed. Two were signed after Watson, Carr and Murray.
Watson's contract had no effect on contracts inked before his extension so lets look at what the contracts signed by the top six NFL QBs who signed this year.

Mathew Stafford 34 years old March 8. W/L 89/101/1 Los Angeles Rams: Four years, $160 million ($130 million guaranteed) W/L 150/79/1
Kirk Cousins 34 years old March 13. Minnesota Vikings: One year, $35 million (fully guaranteed) W/L 74/66/2
Aaron Rodgers 39 years old March 15. Green Bay Packers: Three years, $150.8 million ($101.5 million guaranteed) W/L
----------------------------------------
Deshaun Watson 27 years old W/L 31/29 March 30. Deshaun Watson, Cleveland Browns: Five years, $230 million (fully guaranteed)
Derek Carr 31 years old April 13. Las Vegas Raiders: Three years, $121.5 million (guaranteed pending) W/L 63/79
Kyler Murray 25 years old June 21st. W/L 25/31/1 Kyler Murray gets monster $230.5 million contract after offseason Cardinals drama ...The deal, which includes $160 million guaranteed

The trend shows top QB contracts have and will continue to increase faster than fans realize.
Stafford is older, won a SB currently considering retirement. Cousins is older, not considered as good as the rest. Rodgers is a HOFer but older and is always considering retirement. Carr is older than I realized and has never been considered as good as the others. Murray is young and talented and got his HUGE extension after Watson.

Lamar Jackson 26 years old W/L 49/21. He turned down less than $130 million guaranteed. He is young and has the best W/L record for his age.

Joe Burrow 26 years old W/L 24/17/1, the Bengals have been paying out contracts and have plenty to ink Burrow to a huge extension so I DO EXPECT him to get a huge guarantee and the Bengals will pay.

Since this is THE Lamar Jackson thread, bringing it back I don't expect Lamar to ask for anything less than Kyler's $160 and I suspect Burrow will eclipse that guarantee when he signs his extension and if that gets done before Jackson then I expect Jackson to look for Joe Burrow money and whatever Joe is able to land for his guarantee.
I think THAT IS PRETTY REASONABLE rather than what you said which was this:

You believe the Bengals will fully guarantee Burrow's deal?

 

[Chaka]

I don't know you'd be saying that about Kelce if the QB's were different.

Probably, which is why I won't fault any QB for not being Mahomes or having Andy Reid as their coach.

I know Andrews has had the best run of his career without Lamar which is a little telling.

He did? Not this year. And I am not sure it is fair to say he did last year either. He averaged 100 yards/game with Huntley to 72 for Lamar but he also got 3 more targets and it was at a lower YPC. Is it so much better just because Huntley couldn't get to his second reads as often as Lamar? The dip in Brown's production from 75 yards/game to 40 yards/game with Huntley suggests a lot.

I do think his weapons this year once Batemen went down was a problem. I don't think the lack of weapons have been in in the past and I'd say Andrews, Brown and Bateman was actually pretty good last year.

Bateman was okay as a rookie but that's fair. Brown is a solid player too, I don't consider him a legitimate #1 WR but he's very good, and paired with Andrews is a nice one two. Then again they didn't have terrible years, Brown was markedly better with Lamar than Huntley (as it should be when switching from the starter to the backup) on pace for 1,275 yards and 9 TDs with Lamar.

Lamar didn't have a terrible 2021 but the drop in pass TD% from his career average of 6.1% to 4.2% hurt. Only 2 rush TDs also knocked down his magic football production but he was still on pace for 1178 rush yards. He was also putting up 260 pass yards/game in 2021 at a 64.4% clip with 1.5 pass TD/game. That's a pace for 4,400 yards and 25 TDs. Not bad for a down year. If he kept his TD% at his career average of 6.1% instead of 4.2% he would have 36 TD passes and no one would be questioning his contract demands. Off year but not a bad one by any stretch.

Lamar was great in 2020 as well with just Andrews and Brown. His TD % was down from his insane 2019 but it was still excellent at 6.9%. He put up 2,700 yards passing at 64.4% with 26 TD passes while also running for 1,007 & 7 TDs. That's a monster year.

2022 was a big disappointment on every level and you can only put so much of that on the loss of Bateman. Something was clearly off from week 4 on but great QB should be able to overcome that. But looking at his career output almost any team should be thrilled to have this guy as their starting QB.

 

[JohnnyU]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

 

[JohnnyU]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

 

[JohnnyU]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

 

[Boston]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

I agree with what a lot of what you saying but not the last part…the last part (if he is even on the block) appears to be purely about guaranteed $ not his performance or talent.

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

Maybe for 2023 (Allen is banged up too btw) but, IMO, that doesn't have much to do with their relative perceptions overall. Particularly coming into 2022 (or 2021 for that matter).

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

I agree with what a lot of what you saying but not the last part…the last part (if he is even on the block) appears to be purely about guaranteed $ not his performance or talent.

Okay, that's fair.

So let me rephrase: Why are we talking about whether or not Lamar is an elite QB, as a passer, but we don't even hesitate to say Allen is one, again as a passer, already?

For both, their running ability opens a lot for their passing but, IMO Allen is clearly, and overwhelmingly, viewed as the superior QB, as a passer and overall.

Personally, I don't think that holds up under scrutiny.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

 

[JohnnyU]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

Maybe for 2023 (Allen is banged up too btw) but, IMO, that doesn't have much to do with their relative perceptions overall. Particularly coming into 2022 (or 2021 for that matter).

True or not, I think Allen is perceived as a better pocket passer that is also mobile.

 

[Chaka]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

Actually, yesterday/today seems like the perfect time to bring it up.

Point me to the thread where people are questioning his status and worth and I will happily contribute.

ETA: @Ghost Rider the last 9 posts (dating to 12/21/22) in the Josh Allen thread are by @Faust posting stat updates and news blurbs.

ETA 2.0: @Ghost Rider Looking at the last three pages of the Bills thread, quickly, you're the only one who really posted anything about putting the onus on Allen. Most of it is about McDermott, Dorsey, the GM, the run game etc.

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

Maybe for 2023 (Allen is banged up too btw) but, IMO, that doesn't have much to do with their relative perceptions overall. Particularly coming into 2022 (or 2021 for that matter).

True or not, I think Allen is perceived as a better pocket passer that is also mobile.

I agree, that is 100% the perception.

"America: React!!!"

 

[JohnnyU]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

Maybe for 2023 (Allen is banged up too btw) but, IMO, that doesn't have much to do with their relative perceptions overall. Particularly coming into 2022 (or 2021 for that matter).

True or not, I think Allen is perceived as a better pocket passer that is also mobile.

I agree, that is 100% the perception.

"America: React!!!"

I think people view Jackson’s playing style as more health adverse.

 

[Chaka]

I used to think he couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing five feet from it. I suppose he did improve.

He really has.

He's essentially Josh Allen with a little less passing and a little more running. But the passing metrics are ridiculously similar. Go to PFR and check. Allen is throwing the ball about 130 times more per year but Lamar's efficiency metrics have been equal or better.

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Josh Allen would be getting this much heat in Lamar's shoes?

Heck, why aren't people questioning him right now?

He had a 6% dropoff in completion % from 69% in 2020 to 63% each of the last two seasons (lower than Lamar) and no one says boo. Allen's 2020 is essentially Lamar's 2019.

Sure he's thrown 35-36 TDs each of the past 3 years but he also is getting 130 more attempts per year with a lower comp% and identical y/a.

And he has a lower career win% and has trouble in the playoffs (4-4).

I have to wonder why is Allen is considered an unquestioned mortal lock elite QB and people are questioning Lamar's bona fides?

In all fairness to what you're saying, Jackson has a career 63.7% completion and 96.6 rating, compared to Allen's 62.5% completion and 92.2 rating.

I removed rookie seasons from Lamar and Allen as I don't think that in necessarily representative of their careers.

But, yeah they are both within a short stones throw of each other in every passing metric. But Allen is an elite, franchise cornerstone face of the league and Lamar may be on the trading block.

Weird.

Well, don’t you have to factor in that most look at Jackson as a higher risk to get hurt? Yes, Allen runs too, but not like Jackson. Plus Jackson is currently banged up.

Maybe for 2023 (Allen is banged up too btw) but, IMO, that doesn't have much to do with their relative perceptions overall. Particularly coming into 2022 (or 2021 for that matter).

True or not, I think Allen is perceived as a better pocket passer that is also mobile.

I agree, that is 100% the perception.

"America: React!!!"

I think people view Jackson’s playing style as more health adverse.

Valid. But I think it's unfair to call it Lamar's playing style as opposed to Roman's playing style. Dude called a lot of QB runs. Maybe for a reason, but that reason may not be exclusively the end of Lamar's QB potential.

 

[massraider]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

Actually, yesterday/today seems like the perfect time to bring it up.

Point me to the thread where people are questioning his status and worth and I will happily contribute.

ETA: @Ghost Rider the last 9 posts (dating to 12/21/22) in the Josh Allen thread are by @Faust posting stat updates and news blurbs.

ETA 2.0: @Ghost Rider Looking at the last three pages of the Bills thread, quickly, you're the only one who really posted anything about putting the onus on Allen. Most of it is about McDermott, Dorsey, the GM, the run game etc.

Why aren't we reading about Allen's contract leaving the team unable to build a team?

Allen's new contract kicks in NOW, after two years of him having a 15 mill cap number. Two years of early exits from the playoffs, squandering the last two years of cap space from his original contract.

The Bills now get to build a team with his cap number starting at 40 mill, and going up.

I have not seen any suggestions to trade him, and build around a different QB, but then again, I haven't been looking

 

[habsfan]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

Actually, yesterday/today seems like the perfect time to bring it up.

Point me to the thread where people are questioning his status and worth and I will happily contribute.

ETA: @Ghost Rider the last 9 posts (dating to 12/21/22) in the Josh Allen thread are by @Faust posting stat updates and news blurbs.

ETA 2.0: @Ghost Rider Looking at the last three pages of the Bills thread, quickly, you're the only one who really posted anything about putting the onus on Allen. Most of it is about McDermott, Dorsey, the GM, the run game etc.

Why aren't we reading about Allen's contract leaving the team unable to build a team?

Allen's new contract kicks in NOW, after two years of him having a 15 mill cap number. Two years of early exits from the playoffs, squandering the last two years of cap space from his original contract.

The Bills now get to build a team with his cap number starting at 40 mill, and going up.

I have not seen any suggestions to trade him, and build around a different QB, but then again, I haven't been looking

I hear Derek Carr is available...

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

 

[massraider]

I hear Derek Carr is available...

Yeah dude, but Carr has 78 turnovers in the last 5 years, which is good for 4th in the league.

Why massraider, but who is #1 over that time?



Josh Allen: 80


Lamar: not in top 10

 

[Ghost Rider]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

Actually, yesterday/today seems like the perfect time to bring it up.

Point me to the thread where people are questioning his status and worth and I will happily contribute.

ETA: @Ghost Rider the last 9 posts (dating to 12/21/22) in the Josh Allen thread are by @Faust posting stat updates and news blurbs.

ETA 2.0: @Ghost Rider Looking at the last three pages of the Bills thread, quickly, you're the only one who really posted anything about putting the onus on Allen. Most of it is about McDermott, Dorsey, the GM, the run game etc.

I said "plenty of people," not "plenty of people here." Read up, check out talking heads, etc. Many are taking Allen to task.

 

[habsfan]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

Josh is.. sturdier.

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

 

[massraider]

Josh is.. sturdier.

More important, he has that poise.

He has really better processing speed.

Just sees the field better.

Better decision-making.

Leadership. You can just see the team responds to him.

Really scrappy, lunchpail type guy.

He just has IT. You know, you just know it when you see it.


Copy/paste in Brock Purdy thread, could someone?
K thanks

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

Because people believe their eyes? Jackson was awesome in 2019, but hasn't been since.

Let's look at the last three seasons:
-The Bills are 37-12 and have four playoff wins. Allen has started every single one of those 49 games.
-The Ravens are 29-21 and have one playoff win. Jackson has started 39 of those 50 games.
Moral of the story: durability matters. Allen is bigger and stronger and been able to stay on the field. The Ravens last three seasons ended with Jackson not playing because of an injury or concussion. Yes, the Ravens record isn't as good when Jackson doesn't play, but, again, durability matters. Any GM worth their salt, if faced with choosing between two players, will take the guy who is there every week vs the guy who gets injured and is missing games every season.

In those three seasons:
Allen has 108 touchdown passes, 39 interceptions.
Jackson has 69 touchdowns and 29 interceptions.

Allen has 1,946 rushing yards and 21 rushing touchdowns.
Jackson has 2,536 rushing yards and 14 rushing touchdowns.

So, while Jackson has a good edge in rushing yards, especially given that he has played less games, Allen is better than him at everything else. Plus, because he is bigger, Allen gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to staying near the top, as smaller running QBs like Jackson have historically not held up and had longevity (he is already getting hurt every year).

 

[Chaka]

Plenty of people are questioning Josh Allen lately and especially today. That seems like a strange point to bring up today.

Actually, yesterday/today seems like the perfect time to bring it up.

Point me to the thread where people are questioning his status and worth and I will happily contribute.

ETA: @Ghost Rider the last 9 posts (dating to 12/21/22) in the Josh Allen thread are by @Faust posting stat updates and news blurbs.

ETA 2.0: @Ghost Rider Looking at the last three pages of the Bills thread, quickly, you're the only one who really posted anything about putting the onus on Allen. Most of it is about McDermott, Dorsey, the GM, the run game etc.

I said "plenty of people," not "plenty of people here." Read up, check out talking heads, etc. Many are taking Allen to task.

I believe that, but if it's happening out there (just like it is with Lamar) why aren't we seeing it reflected in here. I mean, can't we honestly say this space is an honest reflection of what is happening in the main stream football community? For it to be entirely absent here, outside of your post, is interesting.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

Sure, but even in this thread it was commented on that Hurts did not have an elite year as a passer.

It's not fishing, the reason I decided to state it openly is I didn't want to be seen as fishing.

For whatever reason Lamar is being judged by a different standard. Personally I don't believe it has to do with his, alleged, contract demands.

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

Sure, but even in this thread it was commented on that Hurts did not have an elite year as a passer.

It's not fishing, the reason I decided to state it openly is I didn't want to be seen as fishing.

For whatever reason Lamar is being judged by a different standard. Personally I don't believe it has to do with his, alleged, contract demands.

If we don’t quit talking about race all the time, we will always be talking about race. There are plenty of successful black QBs and the league has moved in the direction of the more mobile QB, so I don’t see any validity to your statement about race with regards to Jackson and Allen.

 

[Chaka]

The Ravens are 29-21 and have one playoff win. Jackson has started 39 of those 50 games.

That's nice. They're also 26-13 with Lamar over that span.

I'm fine with the durability question, honestly it's the only one that remotely holds water. And even that one is thin at best.

Maybe let him pass ~130 times more and run ~50 fewer times less per season and we have a different durability outcome.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

Sure, but even in this thread it was commented on that Hurts did not have an elite year as a passer.

It's not fishing, the reason I decided to state it openly is I didn't want to be seen as fishing.

For whatever reason Lamar is being judged by a different standard. Personally I don't believe it has to do with his, alleged, contract demands.

If we don’t quit talking about race all the time, we will always be talking about race. There are plenty of successful black QBs and the league has moved in the direction of the more mobile QB, so I don’t see any validity to your statement about race with regards to Jackson and Allen.

I 100% get everything you said. And it is intrinsically correct but I question the reality if not discussing the issue helps facilitate it becoming a non-issue.

And I said people would vehemently argue against the suggestion.

 

[humpback]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

Sure, but even in this thread it was commented on that Hurts did not have an elite year as a passer.

It's not fishing, the reason I decided to state it openly is I didn't want to be seen as fishing.

For whatever reason Lamar is being judged by a different standard. Personally I don't believe it has to do with his, alleged, contract demands.

That's because he didn't. On what planet is 3701 yards (10th) and 22 TDs (14th) "elite"? Hurts had an elite season overall, but not as a passer. Similar to how Lamar is one of the best QBs overall, but not so much a passer.

Peculiar how you leave out Mahomes again. I guess when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

I was waiting for the race card to be played. I knew that was being fished for. Isn’t Mahomes considered black? Jalen Hurts? Isn’t he a MVP candidate?

Sure, but even in this thread it was commented on that Hurts did not have an elite year as a passer.

It's not fishing, the reason I decided to state it openly is I didn't want to be seen as fishing.

For whatever reason Lamar is being judged by a different standard. Personally I don't believe it has to do with his, alleged, contract demands.

That's because he didn't. On what planet is 3701 yards (10th) and 22 TDs (14th) "elite"? Hurts had an elite season overall, but not as a passer. Similar to how Lamar is one of the best QBs overall, but not so much a passer.

Peculiar how you leave out Mahomes again. I guess when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

I have repeatedly referred.to Mahomes as the #1 QB in the league in this thread. And?

Hurts threw 460 passes this season, good for 16th in the league. He was 10th in comp % and 3rd in y/a. Let him throw 600 and are we having this conversation?

 

[Judge Smails]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

For a minority. But they won’t admit it. Same group who only seem to call a QB a dumb MF’r if he’s black. I call people out on that obvious racist sh*t.

But I believe 99% of the anti Lamar crowd in this thread is just taking the position that a running QB who has already been banged up several times is too much of a risk to get huge guaranteed money. It’s a reasonable take. I still think they pay him.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

This is just silly. Didn't he win the f****** MVP award a few years ago?

If anyone gets slighted it is Joe Burrow by a mile... but that will change as the wins pile up. Everything is Mahomes/Allen/Mahomes/Allen... which one would you start a franchise with? It should be Joe F****** Burrow.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

For a minority. But they won’t admit it. Same group who only seem to call a QB a dumb MF’r if he’s black. I call people out on that obvious racist sh*t.

But I believe 99% of the anti Lamar crowd in this thread is just taking the position that a running QB who has already been banged up several times is too much of a risk to get huge guaranteed money. It’s a reasonable take. I still think they pay him.

Appreciate the take Your Honor. I have made several, deep dive posts questioning the notion that Lamar isn't an elite passing QB. I think the very notion that we view him through the almost exclusive lens of a running QB is what needs to be challenged.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

This is just silly. Didn't he win the f****** MVP award a few years ago?

If anyone gets slighted it is Joe Burrow by a mile... but that will change as the wins pile up. Everything is Mahomes/Allen/Mahomes/Allen... which one would you start a franchise with? It should be Joe F****** Burrow.

Hey now, I said just up thread that if any eligible QB deserved the Deshaun contract, it's Burrow.

IMO the only better QB in the league is Mahomes, and it's close. It's a shame we won't get Mahomes at full health next week

 

[Dizzy]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

This is just silly. Didn't he win the f****** MVP award a few years ago?

If anyone gets slighted it is Joe Burrow by a mile... but that will change as the wins pile up. Everything is Mahomes/Allen/Mahomes/Allen... which one would you start a franchise with? It should be Joe F****** Burrow.

Hey now, I said just up thread that if any eligible QB deserved the Deshaun contract, it's Burrow.

IMO the only better QB in the league is Mahomes, and it's close. It's a shame we won't get Mahomes at full health next week

Honestly, and it's close obviously, I think Burrow has these guys covered.

The AFC is just so stacked at QB it is crazy. None of these guys, NONE, have a shot at piling up Super Bowls like a Tom Brady. There's just too many of them. Mahomes may get a 2nd, but I don't think it will be this year.

 

[Chaka]

If we don’t quit talking about race all the time, we will always be talking about race.

We have not spoken about race for, virtually the entire existence of this country. I am skeptical that speaking about it now will cause a major setback.

 

[Chaka]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't.

This is just silly. Didn't he win the f****** MVP award a few years ago?

If anyone gets slighted it is Joe Burrow by a mile... but that will change as the wins pile up. Everything is Mahomes/Allen/Mahomes/Allen... which one would you start a franchise with? It should be Joe F****** Burrow.

Hey now, I said just up thread that if any eligible QB deserved the Deshaun contract, it's Burrow.

IMO the only better QB in the league is Mahomes, and it's close. It's a shame we won't get Mahomes at full health next week

Honestly, and it's close obviously, I think Burrow has these guys covered.

The AFC is just so stacked at QB it is crazy. None of these guys, NONE, have a shot at piling up Super Bowls like a Tom Brady. There's just too many of them. Mahomes may get a 2nd, but I don't think it will be this year.

Dude is nails . But all props to Taylor and the rest of the Bengals coaching staff too. That team brings heat from top to bottom.

 

[Dizzy]

If we don’t quit talking about race all the time, we will always be talking about race.

We have not spoken about race for, virtually the entire existence of this country. I am skeptical that speaking about it now will cause a major setback.

We can speak about it all you want; I just think you are way off base here. Look at the recent QB contracts affecting the Lamar negotiations... see any similarities? Not in ability either because Lamar is better than ALL of them.

I cannot believe for a second that the color of Lamar's skin affects the way he is perceived (or not being perceived) as an elite QB. Fact is he did not finish on his feet for two seasons in a row. That's a red flag for some.

If Deshaun Watson was white, would he have gotten half a billion guaranteed? What about Mahomes? Maybe the full billion if he looked like Zack Wilson. Come on.

 

[Chaka]

If we don’t quit talking about race all the time, we will always be talking about race.

We have not spoken about race for, virtually the entire existence of this country. I am skeptical that speaking about it now will cause a major setback.

We can speak about it all you want; I just think you are way off base here. Look at the recent QB contracts affecting the Lamar negotiations... see any similarities? Not in ability either because Lamar is better than ALL of them.

I cannot believe for a second that the color of Lamar's skin affects the way he is perceived (or not being perceived) as an elite QB. Fact is he did not finish on his feet for two seasons in a row. That's a red flag for some.

If Deshaun Watson was white, would he have gotten half a billion guaranteed? What about Mahomes? Maybe the full billion if he looked like Zack Wilson. Come on.

I am not speaking of his contract, dude is going to bank. Book it.

I am not even suggesting people don't view him as an elite QB overall.

I am speaking about how he is viewed as a QB. The conversation about him is essentially "great running QB but..." Then some eyeball test commentary about his ability, or lack thereof, as a passer. I think the suggestion that he doesn't stack up as a passer with his peers is highly suspect. And I think Josh Allen and the way he is perceived is the perfect WTF comparison.

I think Jalen Hurts is viewed the same way despite his clear elite passing season this year. Although, to be fair one year does not a career make. In 2021 he was a tremendous liability as a passer. Book is still open there. But it isn't really on Lamar.

I think the Ravens new OC hire is the most interesting storyline of this off-season so far.

 

[BassNBrew]

I don't like the look of myself beating around the bush on this issue. I'm going to just state it openly.

I think Lamar gets judged by a different standard simply because he's black.

I know people will deny this vehemently and I could be wrong, absolutely.

I am happy to hear about why it isn't a fact but I want the hear the counter from the position of why Josh Allen is treated as a top 3 QB (Mahomes, Burrow) and Lamar isn't

​

1.	Mahomes, Patrick KCC QB	474.40	27.906	39.50	18.90	19.60	27.40	33.80	25.10	31.00	B​	36.30	36.90	30.30	20.60	19.90	28.70	34.30	24.80	31.40	15.90	CIN	ZWK (Q)	8
2.	Allen, Josh BUF QB	460.20	28.762	37.60	33.00	30.70	26.00	40.20	31.20	B​	22.90	28.60	26.40	12.70	33.80	20.00	20.70	41.70	28.10		26.60	BYE	bro1ncos	7

29.

Jackson, Lamar BAL QB

264.40

22.033

24.70

44.90

44.70

17.30

16.80

20.70

9.90

23.30

18.20

B​

17.10

25.90

0.90

BYE

ryheaps (Q)

10

 

[BassNBrew]

And 2021

1.

Allen, Josh BUF QB

465.30

27.371

19.40

20.50

40.90

23.10

38.90

33.60

B​

30.50

15.00

24.30

21.80

34.30

13.90

38.90

25.40

33.40

26.10

25.30

BYE

bro1ncos

7

24.

Jackson, Lamar BAL QB

281.70

23.475

22.60

36.70

21.80

19.80

47.20

16.10

23.80

B​

37.00

17.90

17.80

20.50

0.50

BYE

ryheaps (Q)

8

 

[BassNBrew]

@Chaka Allen is posting close to 200 points more a year. On a FF board we will be biased towards that guy.