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Reparations for black Americans (3 Viewers)

Once upon a time I proposed setting up a near poverty level BIG among other things.   One of the issues with a BIG is whether it should be at the individual level or family level.  I proposed that it should be the same amount for every individual including children.  However, for children most of the money should be diverted to a "college" savings fund.   This would of course also be available for education in a trade.  Finally for those that don't use it for education it would go to them at some point.    That would have been much more than 50K and it would have been for all children not just poor children.  "For All" being my policy preference means I dislike this being means tested.  But let us not allow the currently unobtainable great get in the way of the doable good.
I don't see these solutions as helpful by themselves.

Most people without money aren't simply poor because they can't/don't make enough money... they also don't have money because they don't know how to have money.  A little money or a lot of money.  They don't know how to keep it.  They don't know how to save it.  They might not even know how to get a checking account.

An infuriatingly large % of this money you are proposing would simply be blown.  Gone.  Spent.  Spent on #### that has nothing to do with making a better life.

 
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I don't see these solutions as helpful by themselves.

Most people without money aren't simply poor because they can't/don't make enough money... they also don't have money because they don't know how to have money.  A little money or a lot of money.  They don't know how to keep it.  They don't know how to save it.  They might not even know how to get a checking account.

An infuriatingly large % of this money you are proposing would simply be blown.  Gone.  Spent.  Spent on #### that has nothing to do with making a better life.
Yep, new electronics, vacations, expensive clothes, jewelry, gambling, etc. 

 
Yep, new electronics, vacations, expensive clothes, jewelry, gambling, etc. 
I think I fall somewhere between you and bigbottom on this.

I am all for ideas and programs to help the lower class.  It is just easier to identify those that won't work (imo) than to come up with solutions that would.

 
I don't see these solutions as helpful by themselves.

Most people without money aren't simply poor because they can't/don't make enough money... they also don't have money because they don't know how to have money.  A little money or a lot of money.  They don't know how to keep it.  They don't know how to save it.  They might not even know how to get a checking account.

An infuriatingly large % of this money you are proposing would simply be blown.  Gone.  Spent.  Spent on #### that has nothing to do with making a better life.
Yep, new electronics, vacations, expensive clothes, jewelry, gambling, etc. 
So, trickle-down economics?

 
when was I opposed to them ?

I don't mind if you give your kid $$$$$$$$$$$..... but your kid will not appreciate it like they would if they're worked to earn it. 
I had my very first car given to me (used) and I didn't appreciate it nearly as much as the rest of my cars I bought myself.

 
Maybe I mixed you up with someone else.  Glad to hear you're on board with estate taxes.
I didn't say that either :)

I don't really like continually taxing things that have already been taxed .... I understand this is how the Govt gets money but none the less, I hate taxation to a gross extent.

Look bottom line, people don't appreciate things given to them nearly as much as things that are earned. That's just a fact of life with very few exceptions 

 
Been to any indian reservations lately?

Apples and oranges. I'm referring to tribes with casinos - 422 facilities in 28 states. Enormous profits, exempt from Federal Tax. The individual tribe member disbursements are taxable. 

In my home state (Michigan), folks who belong to the Chippewa tribe receive $62K per year. Believe it was in the high 20s / low 30s back when Soaring Eagle Casino opened. How great is that? Every single person taken care of with a basic income generous enough to ensure a very comfortable life (cost of living in rural mid-Michigan is absurdly low.)

What entitles them to that payment? Nothing except their heritage/lineage. 
You're not comparing casino earnings to tax dollars, right?

:oldunsure:

 
In my home state (Michigan), folks who belong to the Chippewa tribe receive $62K per year. Believe it was in the high 20s / low 30s back when Soaring Eagle Casino opened. How great is that? Every single person taken care of with a basic income generous enough to ensure a very comfortable life (cost of living in rural mid-Michigan is absurdly low.)

What entitles them to that payment? Nothing except their heritage/lineage. 
that's not guaranteed though if the Casino's closed right ? 

 
I didn't say that either :)

I don't really like continually taxing things that have already been taxed .... I understand this is how the Govt gets money but none the less, I hate taxation to a gross extent.

Look bottom line, people don't appreciate things given to them nearly as much as things that are earned. That's just a fact of life with very few exceptions 
Often true. But not exclusively. I handed a guy a pair of gloves and hand warmers when it was 15 below wind chill & you would have thought it was a couple racks.

 
It's more like we "rob" Peter - who overcharged his customers and underpaid his employees and was able to get away with it for a variety of reasons - to "pay" Paul.

Although honestly, I'm not sure I'm in favor of this - still need to read the article and actually think about the issue.  It's not something I've really given any real consideration.  My gut reaction is it wouldn't be something I'm in favor of because it seems like it could open Pandora's Box - who determines who does and who doesn't get reparations? What happens with those who don't sue for their "share"?

 
I don't see these solutions as helpful by themselves.

Most people without money aren't simply poor because they can't/don't make enough money... they also don't have money because they don't know how to have money.  A little money or a lot of money.  They don't know how to keep it.  They don't know how to save it.  They might not even know how to get a checking account.

An infuriatingly large % of this money you are proposing would simply be blown.  Gone.  Spent.  Spent on #### that has nothing to do with making a better life.
Booker's plan - at least according to the Vox piece I read would have "nanny state" provisions on what the money can be used for-

  • These accounts would be off limits until the child turns at 18, at which point the child could use them for specific “asset-building” purchases, like a down payment on a house, for example, or college tuition. (Booker hasn’t come up with a full list of eligible purchases yet.)
While I might postpone handing over the cash past 18, I still think that if we can't trust people with money we need to end these "market based" ideas altogether.  

 
Here it is: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/361631/

Really worth a read if you want to speak intelligently about this subject. 
I've started in on this a few times in the past and have never finished. Coates is an excellent writer, so that's not the problem. I just keep seeing links to it when I don't have a lot of extra time at that moment. I'll try again this weekend.

My initial thought about race-conscious policies, including reparations, is that they seem like a terrible idea if they're supposed to be sustained and ongoing. I could see a case for a one-time reparation -- it would have been extremely strong 150 years ago, and it weakens a bit with each passing year, but maybe it's still viable.

Ultimately, though, in the long run, I think we want a society in which race doesn't matter. Not just because that would be nice in its own right, but because it's important for democracy in general.

Scandinavian countries are known for having robust social safety nets that have popular support among their citizenry. One of the reasons for the broad support, it's been suggested, is that the people in Norway (for example) view each other as part of one big happy country, almost like a big family. They view the safety net as being there for people who are down on their luck, to be used by people who are otherwise just like them (but for the grace of God).

In the United States, by contrast, a lot of people view our welfare system as a way for one class of people to exploit and free-load off of another class. It's not "we're all part of one big family." It's more like "we're divided into different classes, and I don't want your class to free-load off of my class." I think race-consciousness feeds into that attitude.

When we use the political process to try to benefit one race at the expense of another race, whether it's indirectly associated with race (welfare) or directly associated with it (affirmative action), it causes people to emphasize identity politics and it exacerbates tribalism in a number of ways. That really can't be part of what we want society to look like in 2050, IMO. We need to arrive at (or at least move towards) color-blindness rather than race-consciousness in the long run.

How we get there is another matter. Maybe temporary race-conscious policies should have a role. Maybe including reparations. I don't know.

But in the long run, I'd hope that we strive toward unity rather than divisiveness, which I think means keeping government policies as race-neutral (even race-oblivious) as possible. Otherwise, as long as there are race-based rents to seek, people will form coalitions along racial lines in order to capture them, and that seems likely to have bad results for our democracy.

 
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It's more like we "rob" Peter - who overcharged his customers and underpaid his employees and was able to get away with it for a variety of reasons - to "pay" Paul.

Although honestly, I'm not sure I'm in favor of this - still need to read the article and actually think about the issue.  It's not something I've really given any real consideration.  My gut reaction is it wouldn't be something I'm in favor of because it seems like it could open Pandora's Box - who determines who does and who doesn't get reparations? What happens with those who don't sue for their "share"?
As I posted in the tax thread.     @Stealthycat too.  These guys get their cake and eat it too, at our expense.  Screw them.

 
Some maths (old article)...

TL;DR

$1,500,000 each (rounded up) to 40 million slave descendents = $59.2 trillion as of 2000.

Presumably higher with 19 years of population growth and compounded interest.

That's ONLY lost wages for ONLY 70 years (1790-1860.)
Some maths (old article)...

TL;DR

$1,500,000 each (rounded up) to 40 million slave descendents = $59.2 trillion as of 2000.

Presumably higher with 19 years of population growth and compounded interest.

That's ONLY lost wages for ONLY 70 years (1790-1860.)
Not sure I agree with taking today's minimum wage and applying interest on top of that.  Why not take the average wage from back then and apply interest to that?  2% seems like an absurdly low interest rate, historically speaking.  I also don't understand why the population growth rate is being used as the interest rate.

 
Unfortunately he's right, JohnnyU. Your lack of understanding, no offense, is equal to AOC. Perhaps worse. You've complained several times about government handouts, yet you consistently vote for politicians who support corporate handouts, and you just chastised AOC for not being for MORE corporate handouts. You vote to increase the size of the military at the expense of the debt, and then you complain about the size of the debt.  AOC doesn't seem to know how many is made, but YOU don't seem to know how money is spent, or how much the people you support are responsible for that spending, far more so than any liberal program that you could name.

And you continue to act like its a conflict between those who work hard and those who want handouts, ignoring the fact that most of the handouts go to the supposed "hard workers" that you idolize.

 
Not sure I agree with taking today's minimum wage and applying interest on top of that.  Why not take the average wage from back then and apply interest to that?  2% seems like an absurdly low interest rate, historically speaking.  I also don't understand why the population growth rate is being used as the interest rate.
How’d you quote me twice.

I’m not sure I agree with any of the methodology in that exercise.

What I was trying to illustrate is how massive the amount would be. Remember, that was absent the first 170 years of slavery, the 100 years of separate and unequal living, decades of discriminatory lending and redlining, doesn’t account for the LT effects of disenfranchisement, or the last two decades of compounding. But even discounting all that & other factors of wealth accumulation, it’s $1.5M per capita. Which is kind of mind boggling.

 
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so the casino example isn't a BIG ..... its income guaranteed as long as the Casino's are fleecing the customers !!  

I don't believe in BIG  and I don't believe in people today having to monetarily pay for things that happened 150-200 years ago

most everybody has challenges in life, and everyone is privileged over somebody else ... even the $15 an hour guy climbing cell towers is better than the  single woman making $8 at a waitress job who is way better off than the homeless guy on the street .. who could be argued is way better off than the person just diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

discrimination is a different critter in a way, because society now accepts discrimination if its towards certain people as a way to say we're not discriminating against anyone .... inquality to make equality   

 
I don't see these solutions as helpful by themselves.

Most people without money aren't simply poor because they can't/don't make enough money... they also don't have money because they don't know how to have money.  A little money or a lot of money.  They don't know how to keep it.  They don't know how to save it.  They might not even know how to get a checking account.

An infuriatingly large % of this money you are proposing would simply be blown.  Gone.  Spent.  Spent on #### that has nothing to do with making a better life.
There is a lot of assumption here. In some cases, you're right. Say, a street level hoodlum or drug dealer. If you hand an addict a large sum of money like that, you may very well be signing their death warrant. 

But hand it to a single, uneducated mom working two jobs to support three kids who simply can't manage to get ahead due to life circumstances,  and it's a life-changing godsend.

I'm still not sure how I feel about all of this, but I think generalized assumptions about what other people are going to do are usually misguided. 

 
How’d you quote me twice.

I’m not sure I agree with any of the methodology in that exercise.

What I was trying to illustrate is how massive the amount would be. Remember, that was absent the first 170 years of slavery, the 100 years of separate and unequal living, decades of discriminatory lending and redlining, doesn’t account for the LT effects of disenfranchisement, or the last two decades of compounding. But even discounting all that & other factors of wealth accumulation, it’s $1.5M per capita. Which is kind of mind boggling.
No clue how that quote happened...... I highlighted your entire post.  I agree the amount would be massive.  When I get the time I will definitely read what tim posted.  This is a complex issue that I admittedly don't think much about, but think it needs to be addressed somehow.  Hopefully this topic will be educational.

 
No clue how that quote happened...... I highlighted your entire post.  I agree the amount would be massive.  When I get the time I will definitely read what tim posted.  This is a complex issue that I admittedly don't think much about, but think it needs to be addressed somehow.  Hopefully this topic will be educational.
I tried to slog through timmay’s article on my phone while running errands but realized quickly I need to give it a better treatment. Some things are a drive by hallway conversation, but that’s a sit down with a cup of coffee deal.

Many countries have done reparations for indigenous or disenfranchised peoples. It’s infintely harder to accomplish in a society like ‘murica because rugged individualism / self-determination, the myth of equality of opportunity, and the demonization of socialism.

As I’ve gotten older I have grown to appreciate the wisdom of challenging your own belief systems. If what I believe is true it should hold up to closer examination. Change is one of the few constants in life you can rely upon. Embrace it, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

 
There is a lot of assumption here. In some cases, you're right. Say, a street level hoodlum or drug dealer. If you hand an addict a large sum of money like that, you may very well be signing their death warrant. 

But hand it to a single, uneducated mom working two jobs to support three kids who simply can't manage to get ahead due to life circumstances,  and it's a life-changing godsend.

I'm still not sure how I feel about all of this, but I think generalized assumptions about what other people are going to do are usually misguided. 
The money is a godsend if they are responsible with it.  If a person doesn't even understand what being responsible with money means, you can't expect them to be responsible with it.

Managing money is a skill.  It isn't about working hard or being lazy, or addictions, or being a good or bad person.  

 
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I’m in favor of just giving everyone a bunch of money. Just print it at the Fed and send it out. The debt is so high what would a little more matter?

 
Unfortunately he's right, JohnnyU. Your lack of understanding, no offense, is equal to AOC. Perhaps worse. You've complained several times about government handouts, yet you consistently vote for politicians who support corporate handouts, and you just chastised AOC for not being for MORE corporate handouts. You vote to increase the size of the military at the expense of the debt, and then you complain about the size of the debt.  AOC doesn't seem to know how many is made, but YOU don't seem to know how money is spent, or how much the people you support are responsible for that spending, far more so than any liberal program that you could name.

And you continue to act like its a conflict between those who work hard and those who want handouts, ignoring the fact that most of the handouts go to the supposed "hard workers" that you idolize.
That was a whole lot of nothing and I don’t have the time or energy to argue tonight.  I’ll just leave it at that.  I know exactly what I believe in and I know exactly how money is spent on both sides of the aisle.

by the way did you watch the Hitler video?  You were affectionately mentioned.

 
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The money is a godsend if they are responsible with it.  If a person doesn't even understand what being responsible with money means, you can't expect them to be responsible with it.

I have handed a single mom/grandma working 3 jobs supporting one of her adult daughters and 2 grand kids $12k a few years back.  Not long after I learned she bought a new car, upgraded her cable subscription, bought new couch pillows, etc.  6 months later she called asking if I could make her car payment.

Managing money is a skill.  It isn't about working hard or being lazy, or addictions, or being a good or bad person.  
Why would you care if people end up blowing their payment?  Is this an argument that is made in civil suits to deny payment?

"Yes we illegally discriminated against Ms Jones, and it ended up costing her years of employment income, but she would be incapable of managing the money she would have otherwise earned"

 
Why would you care if people end up blowing their payment?  Is this an argument that is made in civil suits to deny payment?

"Yes we illegally discriminated against Ms Jones, and it ended up costing her years of employment income, but she would be incapable of managing the money she would have otherwise earned"
What are you talking about.

I explained above... I am in no way whatsoever interested in paying anyone based on race.  I'm against paying a cent because someone was or wasn't discriminated against.

 
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@Dickies

I'm for helping the lower class and poor people.

If you put it under the flag of "reparations" or base it on anything to do with skin color.. I'm against it.

 
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The money is a godsend if they are responsible with it.  If a person doesn't even understand what being responsible with money means, you can't expect them to be responsible with it.

Managing money is a skill.  It isn't about working hard or being lazy, or addictions, or being a good or bad person.  
Yes, managing money is a skill. One that a great many Americans suck at, not just poor people.  Ever lived in a really expensive area? In SoCal living beyond your means is an art form. I knew people there with mid- 6 figure salaries that were dumber with money than your average teenager. Can't make your mortgage payment? Who gives a ####? My Porsche is SICK, brah!

Perhaps one of the prerequisites for reception of this type of payment is money management education.

 
Yes, managing money is a skill. One that a great many Americans suck at, not just poor people.  Ever lived in a really expensive area? In SoCal living beyond your means is an art form. I knew people there with mid- 6 figure salaries that were dumber with money than your average teenager. Can't make your mortgage payment? Who gives a ####? My Porsche is SICK, brah!

Perhaps one of the prerequisites for reception of this type of payment is money management education.
Yes, teaching financial literacy would help, but as I once heard someone say, (OK fine, it was John Edwards, but before we knew he was a total sleazeball) say, "It's really expensive to be poor." People don't use check-cashing services and payday loans because they're dumb, they use them because they have cash-flow problems and those services prey on their desperation. These folks also have very little margin for error. There are countless stories of people who had an unexpected expense like a parking ticket that they couldn't pay, so their car got impounded and they lost their job, which meant they couldn't pay rent and became homeless, etc. etc.

There's an element of meanness and condescension in a lot of aid to the poor -- from drug-testing welfare recipients to continually restricting products that can be purchased with food stamps -- that I think reflects a strain of Social Darwinism that has long lurked in the collective American subconscious. Actually, in many cases it doesn't even bother to lurk, just announces its presence.

 
Here it is: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/361631/

Really worth a read if you want to speak intelligently about this subject. 
@Henry Ford

Henry....back in one of these threads we had a back and forth discussion regarding the systemic nature of white privilege etc and I ended by saying if I had time to get around to it, I'd lay out on paper everything that I had learned.  I had begun doing that and got to about 2 pages in Word.  This article is much better written than I could ever do....take it as my thoughts on that discussion.  This aligns with almost every single thing I have ever wanted to try and get across in terms of the issues as I see them.

 
@Henry Ford

Henry....back in one of these threads we had a back and forth discussion regarding the systemic nature of white privilege etc and I ended by saying if I had time to get around to it, I'd lay out on paper everything that I had learned.  I had begun doing that and got to about 2 pages in Word.  This article is much better written than I could ever do....take it as my thoughts on that discussion.  This aligns with almost every single thing I have ever wanted to try and get across in terms of the issues as I see them.
Great article.  Thanks. 

 
zftcg said:
People don't use check-cashing services and payday loans because they're dumb,
This isnt really true. I mean you can always argue that they are simply uneducated, but that's just a nicer way of calling them dumb. 

Less than 20% of payday loans are for an emergency. 

 
You really owe it to yourself to read it.  Probably the most important work on race in America in the last decade. It demonstrates how past and ongoing prejudice continue to negatively impact African-American communities in ways most people generally don't even realize (redlining, predatory lending, etc.).

Nobody who's read it will ever make or tolerate the "slavery ended 150 years ago and Brown v Board of Ed was decided 60 years ago!" argument again, which is the way it should be.
Thanks. I'll try to make time. 

 
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It's interesting and quite telling how little discussion Tim's article generated.  Can't say I am surprised though.
I'm not surprised either. In fact, I'd be very surprised if anything but this happened.

It's a tough proposition to convince people of anything when the message isn't easily distilled and focused. It's just human nature. Today, people will bemoan the "sound bite" culture. But I think it's always been there. Spreading a message has always been about clarity. 

It's why Bill Clinton won - everyone knew "It was about the economy, stupid". 

Donald Trump won in no small part due to a message of "Making America Great Again". Compared to Hillary Clinton's message of "I'm with her". Trump (ironically) made it about us. Clinton made it about her. 

But that's not really the point here. This topic is important and I worry when the only answer is "spend a good bit of time reading this nuanced article" it isn't going to be something that spreads well. 

 
I'm not surprised either. In fact, I'd be very surprised if anything but this happened.

It's a tough proposition to convince people of anything when the message isn't easily distilled and focused. It's just human nature. Today, people will bemoan the "sound bite" culture. But I think it's always been there. Spreading a message has always been about clarity. 

It's why Bill Clinton won - everyone knew "It was about the economy, stupid". 

Donald Trump won in no small part due to a message of "Making America Great Again". Compared to Hillary Clinton's message of "I'm with her". Trump (ironically) made it about us. Clinton made it about her. 

But that's not really the point here. This topic is important and I worry when the only answer is "spend a good bit of time reading this nuanced article" it isn't going to be something that spreads well. 
I'd agree Joe if I didn't spend copious amounts of time trying to convey to people real life examples of the things listed in that very article.  Almost all those things I have discussed in specificity on this board over the years and most recently any time white privilege has been discussed.  So, that's not been the only answer.  Of course, those comments and experiences were dismissed because they didn't fit a narrative (if they were even acknowledged at all).  I have no control over that.  All I can do is continue to point out experiences and articles like the above and encourage people to get engaged with the various need groups in their communities.  Until people expose themselves to real life situations like that, they aren't going to change their minds.  They don't want to change their minds and I am certainly not capable of changing a mind, none of us are.  But we CAN stand up to misconceptions, bad research and flat out false information and that's sort of what I've resigned myself to on topics like this.

 

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