rockaction
Footballguy
Ian Rapoport reporting that Sean Payton will step down as coach.
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Sean Payton Steps Down As The Coach Of The New Orleans Saints (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
- Start date
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Wow. Off to Dallas in 2023 or 2024.
Shawnky
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
With Payton gone, the best approach could be to cut all the cap fat this offseason and take a monster dead cap and skeleton roster in 2022, which would tee up the team with top picks and a freshly cleaned cap in 2023. It's the nuclear option, but may be the best choice among a bunch of not-so-ideal ones. In this scenario, you even trade Kamara for picks and go into full tank-mode. AK41 can't do it alone. Might as well do him and themselves a solid by moving on. Without a franchise QB or elite coach, now's a good time to hit the reset button and set up to begin another run in a year or two.
BoltNlava
Footballguy
He needs a dragon's blood QB to make his magic work. If he takes time off and waits in the weeds until a franchise+7 (with a QB who has the DEX, Wis, INT, CON and STR) to arise from the ashes...Then he can weave his dark magic once again.
I think it's a smart move. His tenure has run its course. Plus all the cap hell doesn't help.
I think it's a smart move. His tenure has run its course. Plus all the cap hell doesn't help.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Romo $17M per year
NutterButter
Footballguy
That cap is a mess. You can only restructure so much. I think there's only one guy they can cut pre-Jun 1 to save some good cap space. Every other big contract is significant dead money.
Terpman22
Footballguy
You gotta hand out some pre-emptive extensions to some solid leaders that will see you through on the other side of this as well. In these sort of situations you really need a couple of defensive guys to step up more on the field and more in the locker room than ever before until you get a QB you believe in.
At the same time, you have to believe there is a good chunk of players that will want out as well.
Tough stuff here.
How do these contracts work when someone "steps away"? Do the Saints own him for the full length of his contract, even if he is not being paid?
Doug B
Footballguy
I don't know all the ins and outs, but Payton still "owes" the Saints five seasons of service per the terms of his current contract with the team.
Of course, if he stays retired or goes into broadcasting or something else -- no problem. College coaching, also no problem. If, however, another NFL team wants Payton's services, they will have to negotiate with the Saints for his rights. So far as I know, this will be the case into perpetuity.
Broadcast for a year and then see what options are available. Everyone wants to put him in Dallas but he'll have options and more control then he'd get in Dallas might be one thing he wants. Understand he has contractual obligations existing but I'm sure that would be worked out.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Surprising, but it's hard to blame the guy. After all that time with Brees, it kind of feels like they're starting over from square one. Rebuilds are no fun, and there's no guarantee that Payton would even survive one (coaches get fired for dumb reasons all the time -- see what happened to Brian Flores and the guy in Houston whose name I never even got a chance to learn). Step aside and hang out in the broadcast booth for a couple of years and then come back when somebody backs up a Brinks truck in front of your house.
The General
Footballguy
This has to be his plan right?
If not there best job available after doing some TV stuff for a year or two.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Smart, and good timing -$74M under the cap, no franchise QB, a dearth of talent outside of Kamara, who’s about to be 27 in July…the only thing NOS has going for them is a relatively soft division.
If I’m Payton, I probably step away from football for a while, too.
If/when he decides to return, he’ll have his choice of jobs.
If I’m Payton, I probably step away from football for a while, too.
If/when he decides to return, he’ll have his choice of jobs.
Shawnky
Footballguy
No. He is under contract until 2026. And if he isn’t coaching, I’m pretty sure those years aren’t going away. Only way this happens is Dallas giving up a substantial amount of draft picks.
The General
Footballguy
Well that puts a wrinkle into that Cowboys plan. He's not that great and wouldn't want to coach a team that is hurting on draft picks.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I just responded to this in another thread. Sure . . . the team can easily covert $80 million in salary for 7 guys to signing bonuses and get back under the cap without releasing anyone, but that locks in having to take $80 million in salary cap charges down the road. The league doesn't care when you take the salary cap hit, but that balance does not go away. Kind of like a credit card. Whether you pay it off now or in the future, you still owe the total balance. All the Saints would be doing is decreasing the amount of cap space they will have available in future seasons if they want to get creative in their cap accounting for this season.
Shawnky
Footballguy
Everyone has an opinion, but not that great? I’d look at his overall record and accomplishments before making a statement like that. Apparently, Chicago already tried to trade for him and he said no thanks.
The General
Footballguy
I guess it depends on the cost. But Cowboys with a QB making big bucks, ageing offense line, then having to trade away picks to get a coach isn't as attractive as him sitting out a year then picking him up or free as you toss McCarthy out the door.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Yes, robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't a good business model unless it is done on a much smaller scale out of necessity.
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Shawnky
Footballguy
He won’t be free after a year, so they won’t be able to do that. A trade would be inevitable.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Patriots sort of had to bite the bullet last year. They had $31 million in dead cap money after Brady left, the AB fiasco, player cuts, and a ton of other low dollar roster moves. They saw what the 2021 season cap would look like and projected teams would not have cap room available, so they cheaped out at QB with Cam, had some opt outs not return this year, and cleared a ton of cap room to go on a preseason free agent spending spree this season. We can debate how well they invested their money (some hits, some misses), but they had their cap realignment season in 2020.
The General
Footballguy
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Trading for him isn’t nearly as attractive as if they could pick him up like a free agent.
When I first heard this Cowboys was the first team I thought of but depending on what the Saints demanded it could make this less enticing for Payton and the team he would be going to.
Shawnky
Footballguy
This isn't the first time he's been linked to the Cowboys. Why the Cowboys? Because he was an assistant there? There's no real connection with that team. Plus, he doesn't seem like someone to put up with Jerry's nonsense. He was a player with the Chicago organization and went to high school and college in Illinois, yet he turned down a trade to the Bears. I don't really see what's enticing about the Cowboys.
The General
Footballguy
Just the big bucks and winning in Dallas makes people freak out I think.
Dallas still generates the most headlines it seems.
rockaction
Footballguy
I also think that Payton is rumored to be sort of buds with Jones, actually.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Nice of him to stick the Saints with that T Hill contract and then bail.
Good coach, but it is hard for me to get past him having Drew Brees for 15 years and only making it to one Super Bowl. How does that happen??
Good coach, but it is hard for me to get past him having Drew Brees for 15 years and only making it to one Super Bowl. How does that happen??
habsfan
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Well, we know at this point that McCarthy is a clown, and Rodgers is a bit of a frontrunner, so them making just one is less surprising the more we think about it.
If not for an awful non-PI call they would have made one more a few years ago. But definitely way too many 7-9 seasons in between winning seasons over Payton’s tenure.
habsfan
Footballguy
That's fair but they both squandered the one thing that everyone claims is the key to unlocking championships. I would agree NO had a better row to hoe and better overall talent.
Not that I had any doubt he was going to take the year off but more I think about it makes even more sense. Take a breather, dip your toes in broadcastin, etc, etc.
But the other part is if he tried to leave the Saints now they'd want some solid compensation. I wonder if Payton considered that, that he would effectively be hamstringing himself with loss of key draft pick(s) if he went to another team? I'm sure Saints will still want some compensation next year but for a variety of reasons I think it will be way less. Also should he want to align himself with up an up and coming rookie QB he might prefer his options better next season.
I'm actually surprised more coaches don't this kind of thing. Of course Payton's mentor did it a few times.
But the other part is if he tried to leave the Saints now they'd want some solid compensation. I wonder if Payton considered that, that he would effectively be hamstringing himself with loss of key draft pick(s) if he went to another team? I'm sure Saints will still want some compensation next year but for a variety of reasons I think it will be way less. Also should he want to align himself with up an up and coming rookie QB he might prefer his options better next season.
I'm actually surprised more coaches don't this kind of thing. Of course Payton's mentor did it a few times.
This was over a decade ago but I remember reading it and thinking they must have really remained on good terms after Payton left Dallas. I've no doubt they are tight, Payton moved to Dallas area the year he got suspended so a lot of it makes sense and this dot has been getting connected for years. I see control as being big issue for Payton, but who knows.
Sean Payton steals spirit from Jerry Jones
rockaction
Footballguy
Believe it or not, I had read that years ago and it's the exact anecdote I had in mind when I posted what I did in this thread about them having at least a collegial relationship.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Not a Saints diehard fan, but I live on the outskirts of Saint's land andf I'm sympathetic to their situation. They should definitely rip the band-aid off and maximize the cap hit this year and get all revved up for 2023. Or they could just blend into the bushes with Carolina and Atlanta.
ETA: Kamara to Buffalo.
ETA: Kamara to Buffalo.
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LawFitz
Footballguy
Rationally, if the Saints make 2022 the cap purge year, who else besides Kamara makes sense to unload and what could they get in return in terms of draft capital?
E.g. I came across an article talking about teams trading for Ramczyck, but I think he's the type of player you keep in this situation (young OT with potentially over a decade of good to elite play ahead, health permitting).
If I am the Saints, I'm looking to unload anyone at even moderate risk of a substantial drop off in performance due to aging for their position in the next 3 yrs. Kamara, again being example 1a, but I'm sure there are others who could create some nice win-wins in trades this off-season to needy teams.
E.g. I came across an article talking about teams trading for Ramczyck, but I think he's the type of player you keep in this situation (young OT with potentially over a decade of good to elite play ahead, health permitting).
If I am the Saints, I'm looking to unload anyone at even moderate risk of a substantial drop off in performance due to aging for their position in the next 3 yrs. Kamara, again being example 1a, but I'm sure there are others who could create some nice win-wins in trades this off-season to needy teams.
rockaction
Footballguy
Demario Davis is getting up there. Who's the sack monster they have? Cameron Jordan. He gone after 2022 with that cap hit and out in his deal. He's 32.
Who else? Michael Thomas.
Marshon Lattimore? He's younger, though. Like 25 or something.
I don't know. I'm looking at all these contracts and they're so backloaded that the Saints look really screwed in terms of dead cap.
They might be one of the worst teams in the NFL in a year or two. That's bleak.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Not only is this a great move to attract a top coach, but in that division you could still be competitive if Tom retires and things break right.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Part of the problem for the Saints id they have a bunch of really expensive players and the rest of the team . . . not so much.
Marshon Lattimore CB $9.1M salary, $40M cap hit to move on, $27.5M cap number for 2022
Michael Thomas WR $15.4M salary, $22.7M cap hit to move on, $24.7M cap number for 2022
Ryan Ramczyk RT $10.5M salary, $37.7M cap hit to move one, $23M cap number for 2022
Cameron Jordan DE $13.6M salary, $21.4M cap hit to move on, $22.9M cap number for 2022
Andrus Peat G $10.9M salary, $13.8M cap hit to move on, $15.5M cap number for 2022
Alvin Kamara RB $5.5M salary, $20.5M cap hit to move on, $14.5M cap number for 2022
David Onyemata DT $7.5M salary, $9.3M cap hit to move on, $13.2M cap number for 2022
Terron Armstead LT $5.2M salary, $13M cap hit to move on, $13M cap number for 2022
Taysom Hill QB $1,1M salary, $19M cap hit to move on, $12.3M cap number for 2022
Malcolm Jenkins FS $7.8M salary, $7.9M cap hit to move on, $12.2M cap number for 2022
Demario Davis OLB $7.5M salary, $10.5M cap hit to move on, $11M cap number for 2022
Bradley Roby CB $9.5M salary, no cap hit to move on, $10.1M cap number for 2022
Marcus Davenport DE $9.6M salary, $10.6M cap hit to move on, $9.8M cap number for 2022
When you suggest they "unload" people, do you mean trade for whatever they can get for that player (even if that means paying some of their salary and giving picks to other teams to take them)? Do you mean flat out releasing them?
The numbers I just posted are baseline numbers, meaning the damage to the team would vary based on timing, releasing, or trading each player. The new team might have to take a bite of the pie cost wise, but that would be too detailed to get into for 13 players.
Rebuilds can take many years if not decades to pull off . . . or they could be accomplished fairly quickly with some good personnel decisions, great drafting, and some smart free agent pick ups. I don't follow the Saints, so I don't know enough about them to identify who to keep and who to move on from.
Shawnky
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Someone liked this post, so it made me revisit the timeline:
Actually, the rumors started this past Sunday, January 23rd. On Saturday, January 22nd, Sean Payton was more or less incommunicado and on vacation ... not a hint of retirement rumors swirling yet.
Basically, it all went down in 48 hours. I wonder how long Payton himself was certain of is decision?
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