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Yes, but I think you're adding three factors.
Hey Bass, question about something in the first of your posts I quoted; Do you believe an offensive assist by another player via a "push" is akin to a defensive assist by another player via "vaulting over a pile?" Also, while defensive players are still currently prohibited from "pushing" another defensive player, it occurs anyway, with no flags. Example: a defensive player is in the beginning process of tackling a runner, one-on-one, when more defensive players join the pile. This results in the defensive players "pushing" the original defender to assist in making the tackle. Often times moving the pile backwards, at which time the whistle blows.
youtu.be
Love it!
Just like the O-Line of the Eagles does w/Jalen Hurts:
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
Love it!
Just like the O-Line of the Eagles does w/Jalen Hurts:
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
From now on, when you type Jalen Hurts name, can you please pre-empt it with "Super Bowl MVP." Thank you.
I thought we were getting rid of the '*'s?
Love it!
Just like the O-Line of the Eagles does w/Jalen Hurts:
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
From now on, when you type Jalen Hurts name, can you please pre-empt it with "Super Bowl MVP." Thank you.
Super Bowl MVP Jalen Hurts*
* Suspected Cheating. Award Questionable and currently Under League Review.
.....(https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/43251656) in high school and college, it is okay to push the pile.....but not solely the ball carrier
Hey @Stinkin Ref ,I'm a HS ref...on the fence...only because the rule is different at different levels...
1. It's illegal in HS....it's called "aiding the runner" and they think it's dangerous...so its dangerous in HS but not NFL..?
2. Contrary to popular belief and what is mentioned in this thread ....it is NOT hard to officiate....not sure that is what initiated the change in early 2000's...it is very easy to see a player pushing a ball carrier forward from behind.....easy
3. It's illegal in college...you can't lift, push, or pull a ball carrier....although I talked to my college ref buddies and they say they are told not to call it (watch ARZ State TD in Bowl Game) lineman did all three to Scatterboo on a score....
4. To me it is the essence of football....matriculating the ball down the field....however if the defense can't push their guys forward then the offense shouldn't either
5. I think the injury risk is minimal....in fact it may be one of the safest plays run during a game compared to others at high speed.....hell KC won't ever run a QB sneak of any sort since Mahomes got hurt on one in DEN.... but that was a fluke
my take....keep it legal but let defenders do the same so they have the same opportunity to create force in the other direction...if not...make it illegal
having worked as a side official....spotting the ball on QB sneaks, around the goal line or anywhere else is definitely an issue...you don't have a great look at the ball with all the bodies etc....and "mechanics wise" it is supposed to be the sideline officials who determine "forward progress"...so I will agree that part of the play is hard to officiate....forward progress on many plays is not an exact science....so yeah, I see what you are saying....Hey @Stinkin Ref ,I'm a HS ref...on the fence...only because the rule is different at different levels...
1. It's illegal in HS....it's called "aiding the runner" and they think it's dangerous...so its dangerous in HS but not NFL..?
2. Contrary to popular belief and what is mentioned in this thread ....it is NOT hard to officiate....not sure that is what initiated the change in early 2000's...it is very easy to see a player pushing a ball carrier forward from behind.....easy
3. It's illegal in college...you can't lift, push, or pull a ball carrier....although I talked to my college ref buddies and they say they are told not to call it (watch ARZ State TD in Bowl Game) lineman did all three to Scatterboo on a score....
4. To me it is the essence of football....matriculating the ball down the field....however if the defense can't push their guys forward then the offense shouldn't either
5. I think the injury risk is minimal....in fact it may be one of the safest plays run during a game compared to others at high speed.....hell KC won't ever run a QB sneak of any sort since Mahomes got hurt on one in DEN.... but that was a fluke
my take....keep it legal but let defenders do the same so they have the same opportunity to create force in the other direction...if not...make it illegal
Appreciate your thoughts. Your second point seems a bit obtuse. The point being made elsewhere in the thread about the play being hard to officiate is not based on "seeing" an offensive player push another offensive player (the ball carrier.) Sure, that part is easy, no duh. The difficulty arises when officials attempt to spot the ball after the play is whistled dead. With so many bodies piled together, it is difficult. So, you see the difference, do you not?
By the way, difficulty spotting the ball correctly after a play is whistled dead occurs often enough in the NFL that it is not an outlier that happens only with this one particular play. It happens on most QB sneaks and short yardage plays on a weekly basis. You know this. Difficulty spotting the ball correctly is definitely NOT a valid reason for the NFL to shut this play down.
Lastly, I am fairly sure it should not matter one iota whether rules compare equally across the age spectrum of when players participate and compete in the game of football. I believe the rules should be much tighter and restrictive when it comes to high school sports participation. Comparing rules between high school and professional football makes little to no sense. Just because something is permitted in professional football does not mean it should be allowed in high school football. Also, vice versa, just because it is not permitted in high school football does not mean it should also not be permitted in professional football.
agree with most of this....but if it's "safe" for the offense to do....why can't the defense do the same...?
I don't see anywhere in the post where he's saying it's unsafe for either side.
didn't say he was saying it was unsafe for either side....just wondering why it is illegal for the defense to do the same and why this rule (pushing your teammate forward) would "apply" differently to the defense then the offense....
I am curious, why does the defense need/deserve the ability to push another defender? Allowing this to occur does not limit the number of defenders who could potentially be pushed by another defender. There are 10 other defenders that could potentially get an assist via push. On offense, it is only ever just one player that could be assisted via push.......the ball carrier. (There are no restrictions for a ball carrier following his blockers and giving them a push from behind. That issue should not enter the conversation.) I do not believe giving the defense the ability to have one defender push another defender forward is the answer.
My answer to that question would be, I have no idea why it isn't legal for a defensive player to push another defensive player. I don't see any reason why it should be allowed or shouldn't be allowed, on either side. It's just different options for what the rules could be. Like Euclid's fifth postulate or whatever. Some think it can only be one way, but if you allow it to be the other way, it's not broken, it's just a different thing.
I'll answer this kind of piece by piece.....first I don't really know how to answer your very first question as I don't really understand it...in my mind it's not about needing or deserving...?...
In my opinion the defense already does this to some extent. Sure, you do not see corners or safeties moving up too close to the line of scrimmage but, the linebackers are up as close as they can get without abandoning their coverage area. This is why corners and safeties don't move forward very much when thinking a shove or push play is forthcoming. There is always the chance that the play is checked out of so that the offense can take advantage of abandoned coverage areas. I have seen it happen previously so I know, and so does the defense, that is always a possibility when defending the play. I believe this is why defenses do not overload the area behind their linemen with more bodies. They simply cannot afford to. Would allowing a defender to push another defender change this metric?
TBH I think the reason they don't let the defense do it has more to do with special teams....FG block, etc....but the point remains the same...as it stands now....the defense can't push their guys forward but the offense can.....whether or not the defense has to account for a "fake" tush push.....doesn't matter....that's their choice....they should be able to make that decision...but as it stands now....they can't do behind the nose tackle what the offense can do behind the center....
The forward pass isn't a safe play if every time a QB goes to pass, a defender illegally late hits and collapses the knee of the QB. I watched my favorite team do it a bunch of times, it seemed to be effective. The opponent was caught and began having to use their backup QB b/c the starter had his knee collapsed in which led to multiple penalties and the ref warning. Continuing to collapse the knee of the opponent's QB I think would eventually result in all QBs getting injured and the injury talk will go from speculation to reality.
In a league where like half the teams drew up plays for the friggin wildcat offense lol, you figure a few teams would learn THIS one.
The problem is that the defense DOES do it, all the time. Granted it doesn't look the same but most gang tackles in the open field involve defenders pushing on other defenders who are wrapped around the ball carrier. It happens in fact, far more often in a typical game then the Eagles do it in any game. IN those case, injuries often do happen, though generally because the pusher comes in and makes contact with significant force...to his team-mate more often then not.
open field is a completely different animal...you know that...at the line at the time of the snap the defense cannot do behind the nose tackle what the offense can do behind the center....
Honestly I expect them to continue to use Hurts on sneaks in those spots. Efficiency will go down, but not by much at all.Just revisiting because Shefter is reporting that he *Does* expect the rush push / brotherly shove to be banned.
As a brand new Saquan owner, I can only stand up and applaud the league for having the courage to do what’s clearly right, and the Packers for being snitches. Well done, all - I, and Saquan’s incoming 35 TD season, thank you.
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Certainly possible. Honestly the best thing that could happen to Saquan shareholders is a very minor injury scare on a sneak.
Jalen Hurts trains like a gladiator squats, sled pushes, leg day devotion making the Tush Push look effortless. Meanwhile, Patrick Mahomes embraces the elite QB dad bod, focusing on arm angles, golf swings, and making magic from the pocket. Some push, some pass but dad bods remain undefeated.
How do you "snitch" on something EVERYONE can see?Just revisiting because Shefter is reporting that he *Does* expect the rush push / brotherly shove to be banned.
As a brand new Saquan owner, I can only stand up and applaud the league for having the courage to do what’s clearly right, and the Packers for being snitches. Well done, all - I, and Saquan’s incoming 35 TD season, thank you.
/s
/s means "the preceding was sarcasm"How do you "snitch" on something EVERYONE can see?Just revisiting because Shefter is reporting that he *Does* expect the rush push / brotherly shove to be banned.
As a brand new Saquan owner, I can only stand up and applaud the league for having the courage to do what’s clearly right, and the Packers for being snitches. Well done, all - I, and Saquan’s incoming 35 TD season, thank you.
/s
The ignore feature remains the best asset this website has to offer, and it’s free.
Saquan jokes/optimism aside, I agree on both points.
Thanks for the info. I literally had no idea that it meant that./s means "the preceding was sarcasm"How do you "snitch" on something EVERYONE can see?Just revisiting because Shefter is reporting that he *Does* expect the rush push / brotherly shove to be banned.
As a brand new Saquan owner, I can only stand up and applaud the league for having the courage to do what’s clearly right, and the Packers for being snitches. Well done, all - I, and Saquan’s incoming 35 TD season, thank you.
/s
The craziest part was they *knew* Allen liked to run to one side, and the Bills apparently *knew that they knew that Allen preferred to run to one side*, but the Bills kept running to that same side over and over again!
We’ll know later this week. Schefter seems to believe it’s impending.
I remember when more than a few posters laughed at this idea not more than a month or so ago. Even laid some shade at posters who suggested it.
