So how do we get out of this mess? (1 Viewer)

[djmich]

I really don’t care what you call it. Somebody calls it CRT and that’s fine, whatever, It’s the details, not the title, that attracts me. 

Remind me not to recommend you for a role in any branding and consumer awareness departments.

 

[timschochet]

The basis of CRT is victimhood, white-hating, America-bashing trash which is absolute nonsense.   

This description suggests to me that you have not read the material about CRT you claim you have (or even more likely, that what you read was written by critics of CRT rather than by its proponents. 
 

But I could be wrong. Which is why si asked you to either link ot better yet quote something you’ve read, from a Pro-CRT source, that would match your description. 

 

[timschochet]

Remind me not to recommend you for a role in any branding and consumer awareness departments.

Lol you don’t need to! Not a role I’d assign myself. 
 

 

[supermike80]

So you don’t know. Got it. Thanks for weighing in on something you don’t know enough about. 

I was just quoting you man.  Thats all I did.  You said its not being taught correctly,  not me.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

I was just quoting you man.  Thats all I did.  You said its not being taught correctly,  not me.

This is the part where you are unable to be honest. Thanks. 

 

[supermike80]

This is the part where you are unable to be honest. Thanks. 

What? Did you say that or not?  If I misquoted you I apologize.  But I swear I thought you said that. 

 

[Shula-holic]

On this note, I thought this was interesting. https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/802446-democrats-and-eduction-matt-taibbi/

It's astounding to me that people think that they can tell others they know what is best for them or their family, inferring they know better, and appear to be genuinely surprised when that isn't taken well.  While I personally have quite a few problems with Hannah-Jones and her ideas, this is true of pretty much anyone.

 

[Shula-holic]

I would be curious to poll those pissed off parents and see what they think CRT is and what they think is being taught to their kids that wasn't the couple years before when they weren't storming the board meetings.  

Well, that's a bit of a different issue as Tim's post openly stated he wanted CRT to be part of education.  I used Virginia as an example.  To be fair, if CRT isn't being taught in VA, then I'd argue it makes the case stronger for the resistance you should expect.  If people are this upset when it isn't there or just part of it, when you truly put it in what will you get?  

And for the record, I have no idea what is being taught in VA schools as I'm not local to there.  I'll let them decide for themselves.

 

[Shula-holic]

Sorry I missed this post. 
 

I want elements of CRT taught but I don’t like the negative emphasis that some radical leftists place on it. In other words, teach accurate history including the terrible events, but emphasize the victories we’ve achieved over those events. I want a positive spin because I believe America is a positive country. 

I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but I seriously am curious what history classes are being taught elsewhere that people feel we aren't teaching the sins of slavery.  I grew up in Alabama, dripped in every racial stereotype that is the worst of our country.  Even when I was coming through school in the 80's we were taught slavery was wrong, some of the impacts.  It might not go in depth with what some people would want today, but it's not like we weren't educated on it.  It wasn't swept under the rug by any means.  Some of my view may be because we had Alabama History taught as a class as well and some was covered there about Selma, segregation, that whole era.

 

[jon_mx]

This description suggests to me that you have not read the material about CRT you claim you have (or even more likely, that what you read was written by critics of CRT rather than by its proponents. 
 

But I could be wrong. Which is why si asked you to either link ot better yet quote something you’ve read, from a Pro-CRT source, that would match your description. 

From your understanding of what it is, I know you haven't read it.   But I have to remember that you see no bias in mainstream media, so your observations are suspect.  

 

[timschochet]

I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but I seriously am curious what history classes are being taught elsewhere that people feel we aren't teaching the sins of slavery.  I grew up in Alabama, dripped in every racial stereotype that is the worst of our country.  Even when I was coming through school in the 80's we were taught slavery was wrong, some of the impacts.  It might not go in depth with what some people would want today, but it's not like we weren't educated on it.  It wasn't swept under the rug by any means.  Some of my view may be because we had Alabama History taught as a class as well and some was covered there about Selma, segregation, that whole era.

Honestly I think slavery and segregation are taught too much. I would spend a lot more time on racism that occurred in the north, east and west of this country’s rather than focus on the south as if they’re the evil ones. I would teach about redlining in Chicago and the Los Angeles police department, etc. 

 

[Sleestak]

Joe Bryant wrote: "I do wonder if abandoning the PSF isn't the right move. I'm not naive to think the same people won't find another place on the internet to pick up their same stuff. But at least we wouldn't be part of it. Not sure. "

IMO the PSF is an open sewer and reflects poorly on FBG.

After 25 posts (I'm being generous) even the most potentially useful discussion has begun to show the blight of provocation, whattaboutism, and bad faith arguments.  New ground isn't being broken here, and a meeting of minds isn't happening.  Dudes are just practicing their riffs on shoddily constructed straw men.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe Bryant wrote: "I do wonder if abandoning the PSF isn't the right move. I'm not naive to think the same people won't find another place on the internet to pick up their same stuff. But at least we wouldn't be part of it. Not sure. "

IMO the PSF is an open sewer and reflects poorly on FBG.

After 25 posts (I'm being generous) even the most potentially useful discussion has begun to show the blight of provocation, whattaboutism, and bad faith arguments.  New ground isn't being broken here, and a meeting of minds isn't happening.  Dudes are just practicing their riffs on shoddily constructed straw men.

I wish this were all totally not true. 

 

[roadkill1292]

To answer the original question, I don't think there is a solution - right now - because of constitutional limitations, the nearly fitty-fitty split in the electorate and the unwillingness of our elected leaders to make the necessary systemic changes because of the personal benefits they receive from the current system.

I also believe that this changes mid-century but I'm not sure who wins the interim battle between the better-democratists and the anti-democratists.

 

[Stealthycat]

it could end when people become better - and only people can do that

we can't get people in the USA to do the simplest things like not throw trash out the window, not text and drive, eat healthier and exercise or stop cheating on their spouses

if we can't be better on the simplest of things, we absolutely won't on the bigger ones either 

I guess if I had to point to a solution it'd be God

 

[jon_mx]

To answer the original question, I don't think there is a solution - right now - because of constitutional limitations, the nearly fitty-fitty split in the electorate and the unwillingness of our elected leaders to make the necessary systemic changes because of the personal benefits they receive from the current system.

I also believe that this changes mid-century but I'm not sure who wins the interim battle between the better-democratists and the anti-democratists.

People who really think we need 'systematic changes' that are impossible to solve because of 'constitutional limitations' need to find a new country.  We have by far the least oppressed 'oppressed' people in the history of the world.  There is no better place in the world for minorities to succeed and have a happy and free life.  I am so done with the race-baiting left continously stirring the pot and causing riots and hate and discontent.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

it could end when people become better - and only people can do that

we can't get people in the USA to do the simplest things like not throw trash out the window, not text and drive, eat healthier and exercise or stop cheating on their spouses

I think your two points are totally related.

A ton of this is up to us.

My kids would be mortified if I threw trash out the window. That's just not something "you do". And they'd speak up if someone did that.

I think that applies to other things too. And maybe that's how we change. And I think a big part of that is how we discuss things without being uncool to each other. 

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. 

 

[roadkill1292]

A point there is that "things change." A few of us here are old enough to recall the tremendous pushback against Lady Bird Johnson's anti-littering campaign. And look at us now.

A word about religiosity, a big issue to the staff at The American Conservative. I guess a new Great Awakening is always possible -- we've had, what, four of them already in the country's history -- but the trends are pointing towards secularism as the future norm. Reversal may be really unlikely, if experiences in the rest of the First World are any indication.

 

[Joe Bryant]

A point there is that "things change." A few of us here are old enough to recall the tremendous pushback against Lady Bird Johnson's anti-littering campaign. And look at us now.

A word about religiosity, a big issue to the staff at The American Conservative. I guess a new Great Awakening is always possible -- we've had, what, four of them already in the country's history -- but the trends are pointing towards secularism as the future norm. Reversal may be really unlikely, if experiences in the rest of the First World are any indication.

That's interesting as I'm not that old.

I remember as a kid the commercials about the Indian crying about litter and it was a super clear message - "Don't litter". And that was that. I never did it as it was uncool to do.

We do this now in other things. Racist or sexist jokes are way less tolerated than they were a while back. Things change.

Or to be more to the point, people change on what they accept. 

 

[timschochet]

People who really think we need 'systematic changes' that are impossible to solve because of 'constitutional limitations' need to find a new country.  We have by far the least oppressed 'oppressed' people in the history of the world.  There is no better place in the world for minorities to succeed and have a happy and free life.  I am so done with the race-baiting left continously stirring the pot and causing riots and hate and discontent.  

It would be impossible for the “race-baiting left” to stir the pot if there was no pot to stir. You’re quite correct that there is no better place for minorities but that doesn’t mean we don’t still have inequities that need to be solved. You may be done with it, but the nation isn’t, and won’t be, until we resolve these issues. 

 

[Tom Skerritt]

It would be impossible for the “race-baiting left” to stir the pot if there was no pot to stir. You’re quite correct that there is no better place for minorities but that doesn’t mean we don’t still have inequities that need to be solved. You may be done with it, but the nation isn’t, and won’t be, until we resolve these issues. 

I also doubt that jon would be this demonstrative on the subject had he been so fortunate enough to live this happy and free life as a minority.

 

[timschochet]

I also doubt that jon would be this demonstrative on the subject had he been so fortunate enough to live this happy and free life as a minority.

That’s not fair though, because I and most of the rest of us reading this haven’t either. Jon’s entitled to his opinion like the rest of us. We have to solve these issues together. 

 

[roadkill1292]

My comments were directed at our flawed election systems. Government will become increasingly viewed as illegitimate if political power continues to accrue to ever smaller minority positions.

Conservatives may argue for continuation of the status quo but imo they are ignoring the difficulty of governance when a majority is convinced that the system is unfair. We're not far from reaching that point in time.

 

[Summer Wheat]

It would be impossible for the “race-baiting left” to stir the pot if there was no pot to stir. You’re quite correct that there is no better place for minorities but that doesn’t mean we don’t still have inequities that need to be solved. You may be done with it, but the nation isn’t, and won’t be, until we resolve these issues. 

There will never be any real resolution.  There has never been anywhere in the world.

People of "all races" are inherently racist is some forms..even you might be without knowing it.

Go places with lots of diversity and you see people for the most part sitting and hanging with their own.  They can make  commercials with a party of whites, asians, hispanics, blacks, arabs all eating, drinking and laughing together but that is not real and quite frankly never will be. Of course there will be an exception here and there.

I really wish I were wrong this racial, religious utopia we seek in reality is just a pipe dream.  People of all races can be nice and civil to one another though.

 

[timschochet]

There will never be any real resolution.  There has never been anywhere in the world.

People of "all races" are inherently racist is some forms..even you might be without knowing it.

Go places with lots of diversity and you see people for the most part sitting and hanging with their own.  they can put a commeercial with a party of whites, asians, hispanics, blacks, arabs all eating, drinking and laughing together but that is not real and quite frankly never will be.

I really wish I were wrong this racial, religious utopia we seek in reality is just a pipe dream.  Of course people can be nice and civil to one another though.

Your first sentence simply isn’t true. Things are better now than they were 10 years ago. Things were better 10 years ago than they were 20 years ago. And so forth. 

Let me offer you a concrete example: 20 years ago we didn’t have smartphones with video capability. So regular people weren’t able to capture on film any police mistreatment of minorities (the Rodney King beating was an anomaly that it was taped). Now they’re captured on tape all the time. On the one hand this has led to more anger, but it has also led to police being far more conscious of their behavior. The net result is that in the future there will be less institutionalized racism against minorities than there used to be. This technology has accomplished that for us, along with a more woke and politically correct society. 

We constantly move forward, not backwards. It gets better every year, every decade. 

 

[jon_mx]

It would be impossible for the “race-baiting left” to stir the pot if there was no pot to stir. You’re quite correct that there is no better place for minorities but that doesn’t mean we don’t still have inequities that need to be solved. You may be done with it, but the nation isn’t, and won’t be, until we resolve these issues. 

We are going to go to war then.  Half this nation is completely fed up with all this oppression and previledge bullcrap rhetoric from the left.  When civil rights was about equality and equal treatment everyone was on board and we progressed and we made tremendous strides as a nation.  

But now equality is not longer good enough and it is all about equity/equal outcomes.  It does not matter how crappy minorities behave, their present day thuggery is somehow excused because of things which happened 60 years ago.  White people defending themselves against leftwing mobs are criminal.  It does not matter that minorities are actually committing tons more crimes, it is some horrific that they get locked up for being thugs.  We as a nation have bent over backwards to make things as fair as possible and millions upon millions of minorities are doing great.  But modern liberalism can not be happy, they have to create hate and discontent to maintain their power structure and promote their true desire which is some socialist utopia where outcomes are based on need, not accomplishments.  It is the same old Marxist nonsense they have been pushing for over a century, but this time under the guise of racial equity.  And I will literally go to war to fight it.  

 

[timschochet]

My comments were directed at our flawed election systems. Government will become increasingly viewed as illegitimate if political power continues to accrue to ever smaller minority positions.

Conservatives may argue for continuation of the status quo but imo they are ignoring the difficulty of governance when a majority is convinced that the system is unfair. We're not far from reaching that point in time.

I think we can tinker with the system without fundamentally changing it. But then, as a liberal, that’s always been my philosophy. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

We are going to go to war then.  Half this nation is completely fed up with all this oppression and previledge bullcrap rhetoric from the left.  When civil rights was about equality and equal treatment everyone was on board and we progressed and we made tremendous strides as a nation.  

But now equality is not longer good enough and it is all about equity/equal outcomes.  It does not matter how crappy minorities behave, their present day thuggery is somehow excused because of things which happened 60 years ago.  White people defending themselves against leftwing mobs are criminal.  It does not matter that minorities are actually committing tons more crimes, it is some horrific that they get locked up for being thugs.  We as a nation have bent over backwards to make things as fair as possible and millions upon millions of minorities are doing great.  But modern liberalism can not be happy, they have to create hate and discontent to maintain their power structure and promote their true desire which is some socialist utopia where outcomes are based on need, not accomplishments.  It is the same old Marxist nonsense they have been pushing for over a century, but this time under the guise of racial equity.  And I will literally go to war to fight it.  

I would love to see you walk up to a group of non-white people and say this stuff.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

We are going to go to war then.  Half this nation is completely fed up with all this oppression and previledge bullcrap rhetoric from the left.  When civil rights was about equality and equal treatment everyone was on board and we progressed and we made tremendous strides as a nation.  

ETA: There was a smaller peak of Confederate monuments erected in the 50's and 60's as a direct response to the civil rights movement.

 

[timschochet]

We are going to go to war then.  Half this nation is completely fed up with all this oppression and previledge bullcrap rhetoric from the left.  When civil rights was about equality and equal treatment everyone was on board and we progressed and we made tremendous strides as a nation.  

But now equality is not longer good enough and it is all about equity/equal outcomes.  It does not matter how crappy minorities behave, their present day thuggery is somehow excused because of things which happened 60 years ago.  White people defending themselves against leftwing mobs are criminal.  It does not matter that minorities are actually committing tons more crimes, it is some horrific that they get locked up for being thugs.  We as a nation have bent over backwards to make things as fair as possible and millions upon millions of minorities are doing great.  But modern liberalism can not be happy, they have to create hate and discontent to maintain their power structure and promote their true desire which is some socialist utopia where outcomes are based on need, not accomplishments.  It is the same old Marxist nonsense they have been pushing for over a century, but this time under the guise of racial equity.  And I will literally go to war to fight it.  

You need to calm down. We’re not going to war. Nobody is going to install a socialist utopia. The vast majority of liberals want incremental social changes, not to overthrow our capitalist society, but to maintain and protect it and improve it. 

You should be careful when you write things like “the present day thuggery of minorities”. You may be misunderstood. 

 

[Mile High]

War talk again. How do you war talk guys see this playing out? The Texas military marching to California to fight or you and your neighbors blowing up each other's homes? 

 

[Summer Wheat]

Thanks. Not really trying to weigh out what's worse. We're definitely never getting back the desperate dudes drooling over yoga pants stuff so that's not really a question.

I do wonder if abandoning the PSF isn't the right move. I'm not naive to think the same people won't find another place on the internet to pick up their same stuff. But at least we wouldn't be part of it. Not sure. 

I would not miss the PSF one bit if you decided to put an end to it.   

But the reason I came here in the first place was The Shark Pool and team managment talk. Also enjoy the food and business talk in the FFA.  Hopefully that would stay.

 

[Gopher State]

Thanks. Not really trying to weigh out what's worse. We're definitely never getting back the desperate dudes drooling over yoga pants stuff so that's not really a question.

I do wonder if abandoning the PSF isn't the right move. I'm not naive to think the same people won't find another place on the internet to pick up their same stuff. But at least we wouldn't be part of it. Not sure. 

If you do remove this forum it will not be missed.  But I sure you will have a lot less headaches if it’s gone.

 

[roadkill1292]

ETA: There was a smaller peak of Confederate monuments erected in the 50's and 60's as a direct response to the civil rights movement.

The position that "everyone was onboard" with advancements in civil rights is an, uh, interesting historical one.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

it could end when people become better - and only people can do that

we can't get people in the USA to do the simplest things like not throw trash out the window, not text and drive, eat healthier and exercise or stop cheating on their spouses

if we can't be better on the simplest of things, we absolutely won't on the bigger ones either 

I guess if I had to point to a solution it'd be God

Along this theme i think; we need a new perspective and purpose as America.  It is shocking to me, as an example of our lack of perspective and witnessed in this forum's abortion thread, the level of material wealth that is considered not enough for a child to be born into.  To the point it is considered that a human  life would be better off to never exist than to be born into an unmatched age of technology and material goods, unknown in the history of the world.  On any objective basis the poorest Americans are among the richest people in the world, looking back in time and across the world today.  Yet we have mothers consenting to the killing their own children in part at least because they are told they are to poor for their existence to be bearable.   Ask yourself where would we be, both you yourself personally and as a society, would be if our ancestors had that attitude even 200 years ago.   And this attitude of despair with life manifests itself far beyond just abortion.   

 

[timschochet]

If you do remove this forum it will not be missed. 

Yes it will. I suspect by a lot of us. 

There are a group of people here who would love for the PSF to be taken away. They are the same people who deliberately attempt to sabotage all serious discussion, hoping to create chaos that will make Joe so sick and tired of the whole back and forth that he pulls the plug. They appear to be close to their goal. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Yes it will. I suspect by a lot of us. 

There are a group of people here who would love for the PSF to be taken away. They are the same people who deliberately attempt to sabotage all serious discussion, hoping to create chaos that will make Joe so sick and tired of the whole back and forth that he pulls the plug. They appear to be close to their goal. 

This, simply, is not true.

 

[Gopher State]

Yes it will. I suspect by a lot of us. 

There are a group of people here who would love for the PSF to be taken away. They are the same people who deliberately attempt to sabotage all serious discussion, hoping to create chaos that will make Joe so sick and tired of the whole back and forth that he pulls the plug. They appear to be close to their goal. 

Your opinion.  Not true at all!

 

[supermike80]

You need to calm down. We’re not going to war. Nobody is going to install a socialist utopia. The vast majority of liberals want incremental social changes, not to overthrow our capitalist society, but to maintain and protect it and improve it. 

You should be careful when you write things like “the present day thuggery of minorities”. You may be misunderstood. 

How about when people say the jan 6th protesters were going to murder the speaker of the house and the vp??   That might also be something you should be careful with 

The left thinking.   Fascinating 

 

[timschochet]

This, simply, is not true.

Well I’m hoping they’re not close to their goal. So I guess we’ll see. 

 

[timschochet]

How about when people say the jan 6th protesters were going to murder the speaker of the house and the vp??   That might also be something you should be careful with 

The left thinking.   Fascinating 

Why should I be careful with that? They shouted “hang Mike Pence!” 
 

Also I’m a centrist liberal. Not a member of the left. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yes it will. I suspect by a lot of us. 

There are a group of people here who would love for the PSF to be taken away. They are the same people who deliberately attempt to sabotage all serious discussion, hoping to create chaos that will make Joe so sick and tired of the whole back and forth that he pulls the plug. They appear to be close to their goal. 

Serious question: do you think these people have been suspended as many times as you have been for behavior in this PSF?  Because I submit that misbehavior in PSF, especially that which warrants a suspension, is the biggest issue, and that then makes you one of the worst offenders when it comes to behavior that could directly lead to the end of the subforum. 

 

[Wildcat]

Yes it will. I suspect by a lot of us. 

There are a group of people here who would love for the PSF to be taken away. They are the same people who deliberately attempt to sabotage all serious discussion, hoping to create chaos that will make Joe so sick and tired of the whole back and forth that he pulls the plug. They appear to be close to their goal. 

Totally false 

 

[timschochet]

Serious question: do you think these people have been suspended as many times as you have been for behavior in this PSF?  Because I submit that misbehavior in PSF, especially that which warrants a suspension, is the biggest issue, and that then makes you one of the worst offenders when it comes to behavior that could directly lead to the end of the subforum. 

Some have, I’m guessing. I have no way of knowing. 
 

I make no excuses for my bad behavior. When I’ve been suspended, it’s usually justified. But I don’t intentionally intend to sabotage the forum. Most often when I’ve written bad stuff it was in response to people who I believe are trying to goad me and then report me. Again that doesn’t excuse it. But I am trying to avoid such traps in the future. 
 

 

[Tom Skerritt]

Along this theme i think; we need a new perspective and purpose as America.  It is shocking to me, as an example of our lack of perspective and witnessed in this forum's abortion thread, the level of material wealth that is considered not enough for a child to be born into.  To the point it is considered that a human  life would be better off to never exist than to be born into an unmatched age of technology and material goods, unknown in the history of the world.  On any objective basis the poorest Americans are among the richest people in the world, looking back in time and across the world today.  Yet we have mothers consenting to the killing their own children in part at least because they are told they are to poor for their existence to be bearable.   Ask yourself where would we be, both you yourself personally and as a society, would be if our ancestors had that attitude even 200 years ago.   And this attitude of despair with life manifests itself far beyond just abortion.   

Infant mortality rates were about 25-35% back then as well. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Serious question: do you think these people have been suspended as many times as you have been for behavior in this PSF?  Because I submit that misbehavior in PSF, especially that which warrants a suspension, is the biggest issue, and that then makes you one of the worst offenders when it comes to behavior that could directly lead to the end of the subforum. 

I know you didn’t ask me, but I don’t agree that suspension-warranted infractions are the biggest issue. Those can be dealt with by the moderators. The biggest issue is posters commonly acting rudely and otherwise unexcellently towards one another but toeing the suspension line. That’s what makes things so toxic here.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Some have, I’m guessing. I have no way of knowing. 
 

I make no excuses for my bad behavior. When I’ve been suspended, it’s usually justified. But I don’t intentionally intend to sabotage the forum. Most often when I’ve written bad stuff it was in response to people who I believe are trying to goad me and then report me. Again that doesn’t excuse it. But I am trying to avoid such traps in the future. 
 

I believe you, but that leads to the bigger problem which is that the very nature of these kinds of discussions lead to acrimony and divisiveness, and even posters who try to stay on their best behavior and not get caught up in the absurdity can lose their cool a bit in the midst of a discussion and go over the line.  That is why PSF is a problem. 

I know you didn’t ask me, but I don’t agree that suspension-warranted infractions are the biggest issue. Those can be dealt with by the moderators. The biggest issue is posters commonly acting rudely and otherwise unexcellently towards one another but toeing the suspension line. That’s what makes things so toxic here.

I agree, that is an issue, and the worst offenders are easy to spot, for most of us anyway.   I sometimes read these threads and think, "how in the world is this crap still allowed?"  And then I see Joe or one of the mods post in that same thread, so it's not like they aren't seeing it; they just choose to accept it, I guess. 

 

[Da Guru]

I know you didn’t ask me, but I don’t agree that suspension-warranted infractions are the biggest issue. Those can be dealt with by the moderators. The biggest issue is posters commonly acting rudely and otherwise unexcellently towards one another but toeing the suspension line. That’s what makes things so toxic here.

The PSF reminds me a a fresh spring lake that has been slowly polluted over time. Now the water is so toxic and been poisoned for so long that it can`t ever be clean again.

The same people start the same type of threads over and over again with everyone knowing what the end result will be.  There is no serious dicussion here anymore.  It is my side is right and your side is wrong.  You can flip that back and forth and add in subtle trolling and there you have the PSF.  To be honest suprised JB has kept it this long as he was going to shut it down a couple of times awhile back.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Well I’m hoping they’re not close to their goal. So I guess we’ll see. 

You whiffed on your false accusation but what's new?  You have a long history of that anyway

 

[Stealthycat]

I think your two points are totally related.

A ton of this is up to us.

My kids would be mortified if I threw trash out the window. That's just not something "you do". And they'd speak up if someone did that.

I think that applies to other things too. And maybe that's how we change. And I think a big part of that is how we discuss things without being uncool to each other. 

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. 

Joe I lived in Cabot, I drive by several times a week .... our area is piled with trash on the roads ... people like you and me might not trash but even with fines, many people DO

if we can't stop them from doing that - if we can't keep cigarette smokers from the simplest of things like tossing cig butt's out the window .... simple simple things .... we have zero hope of stopping racist thoughts, hate, discrimination, crimes, envy, jealousy and all the things like that which are killing out nation