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Thailand cave rescue (1 Viewer)

Mookie said:
Besides the incredible courage, international cooperation, and selflessness, I'm even more fascinated by the problem-solving and logistical effort involved.
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Same curiosity here. I am looking forward to learning the specifics and fine points of the rescues.

 
Stuart Ullman said:
Put me on the opposite side of the fence. I flipped on CNN yesterday and they had ongoing coverage about this story.

I feel like there's a hundred more important things going on at home that are more important than focusing on this story.

It really shows how concerned the news media is for ratings that everything is put on the back burner over 10 or so kids halfway across the world.

I don't see how this is a good story or at all entertainment for us in America. I think it's overall in poor taste to be doing play-by-play commentary on a situation like this.

But hey, that's just one man's opinion.
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I agree completely.

I mean, it is great that they are getting rescued, but do we need 24/7 coverage of it? 

 
Da Guru said:
There were talking about the coverage last night and some shrink said many people watch and listen to hear bad news.  Then he likened it to the motorcycle jumps last night and said "Many people don`t watch these things to see the jumper succeed..but to see a spectacular crash live."
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Oof. I think that shrink missed the mark by a mile. Or was he not referring to the Thai soccer team, but to the general run of "bad news" we see every day?

 
trident said:
I mean, it is great that they are getting rescued, but do we need 24/7 coverage of it? 
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Nothing to do with "needing 24/7 coverage" -- rather, the viewing public demands such coverage by watching in great numbers.

The television news networks are making monetary decisions to air the Thai soccer team story. The kids didn't get trapped in the cave with the intention of tying up CNN for a week.

That's where online coverage can be superior: (1) it's much more timely, in exchange for somewhat greater inaccuracy, and (2) you can step away and tend to your personal life more readily. Well, you can switch the channel or turn off the tube, too, I suppose.

 
Lol people dropping into a thread about the rescue and complaining there is too much coverage about the rescue.

The internet is neat.

Asked why they listen to Howard stern if they hate him, answer to see what he says next

 
trident said:
I agree completely.

I mean, it is great that they are getting rescued, but do we need 24/7 coverage of it? 
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Actually it's not 24 hour coverage.  I tuned into CNN last night hoping for an update and some show about TV shows from the 2000's was on.

 
pollardsvision said:
No idea if they have the capability to do 5 in one trip or day.
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In theory, they can get more than four out in one day if they can get enough full air canisters laid out ahead of time. There are divers in the cave around the clock laying out canisters. Not sure how many canisters are used per rescue, or what the max number of canisters laid out per day really is.

 
Dive instructor on another board:

Air consumption rate varies with depth, so calculations tend to start by establishing the Surface Air Consumption rate and then doing some math. 

Based upon my experience teaching diving in warm, clear, tropical water a certified adult scuba diver of average skill for a tourist would drain a standard aluminum 80cu ft cylinder from full (3000psi) to empty (500psi) in about 45 minutes at a depth of 60ft. That is roughly three times faster than consumption rate at the surface, so figure about 2 hours and 15 minutes for a cylinder at the surface or about 18.5psi per minute.

But poor visibility, current, or anything else (like struggling through a narrow cave opening) that adds to exertion or stress would increase air consumption rate. Physically smaller people tend to have smaller lungs and lower air consumption rate so that factor might bode in favor of the soccer team.

And no sane diver plans air supply to just barely reach a point where they can safely surface. The mantra in technical diving is a rule of thirds - one third on the way in, one third for the exit, and one third for emergencies. In this case that would mean they should plan to use no more than about 2/3 of the 2500psi of usable air in a cylinder. That means planning to change cylinders when the pressure drops to about 1175psi.

So estimating double the air consumption rate to 37psi per minute due to the stress involved and tough conditions, and adjusting for the minimal depth encountered, so roughly 40psi per minute overall) would mean each individual would need to change cylinders about every 45 minutes of actual dive time. That is cylinder change for each rescue diver and the boy/coach every 45 minutes. And given what they have said about it being roughly 1 kilometer of diving in order to exit that would make for three cylinders per person for the exit. Nine cylinders used to get each boy out plus six to get each rescuer in. Fifteen cylinders total per rescued person. 

The rescuers start their journey in with a set of cylinders. All the rest need to be staged ahead for them to pick up and drop off. So call it 13 cylinders that need to be staged. And the divers staging those cylinders will use cylinders of their own. If a diver can only stage 1 cylinder then it takes three divers 21 cylinders to get the 3 needed to the far cave.

Then divers need to go in and retrieve the used cylinders. That takes more cylinders.

So to get those four boys out in a day there will be a few hundred cylinders used in total. It takes a lot of time and effort to get all the cylinders where they need to be. No surprise they cannot pull all them out in one day.

And then go back and double all the numbers so they can be prepared with plenty of extras if things start to go wrong.
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And after having read that ... I can see why well over a hundred divers are contributing to the overall effort even though only 18 divers are physically executing the rescues.

 
So dumb question - I've googled a bit but am unsure.

Can you refill the tanks there with a large special compressor or are they just shipping new ones?

 
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belljr said:
Can you refill the tanks there with a large special compressor or are they just shipping new ones?
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Yes, tanks are being refilled.

There is some question on the other board about whether or not some spent tanks are not being retrieved, and how logical it is to retrieve and fill all used tanks. But really, everyone talking about that stuff is just spitballing.

 
Doug B said:
Yes, tanks are being refilled.

There is some question on the other board about whether or not some spent tanks are not being retrieved, and how logical it is to retrieve and fill all used tanks. But really, everyone talking about that stuff is just spitballing.
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I mean I knew they can be refilled - I just didn't know if it could be done on site.  Thanks!

 
Doug B said:
Yes, tanks are being refilled.

There is some question on the other board about whether or not some spent tanks are not being retrieved, and how logical it is to retrieve and fill all used tanks. But really, everyone talking about that stuff is just spitballing.
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I was wondering more about the logistics of the empty vs filled tanks. Lets say I am diver... I've been under for enough time that its time for me to switch tanks. I see three tanks on the bottom. Can I tell which one has air? 

I don't know enough about diving to know if there are any protocols about this. I just know I wouldn't want to be holding my breath trying to figure out which of the three, if any, are full.

You gotta figure there is a decent mix of full and empty tanks sitting on the floor right now. 

 
IrishTwinkie said:
I was wondering more about the logistics of the empty vs filled tanks. Lets say I am diver... I've been under for enough time that its time for me to switch tanks. I see three tanks on the bottom. Can I tell which one has air? 

I don't know enough about diving to know if there are any protocols about this. I just know I wouldn't want to be holding my breath trying to figure out which of the three, if any, are full.
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Empty tanks are much more buoyant than full ones. However, I'm sure gauge-confirmed pressure checks, alongside some nonce measures, are being employed.

 
The tank questions are interesting, that's why it will be fascinating to later read a detailed analysis of the rescue - all the little logistics details like that.

For the spent tanks, they'd only have to recover and lug them to the nearest open area, whether that be forward or backward from where the tank is - and pile them up there for later retrieval.  I'm not sure they want to spend the time or dangerous effort to lug tanks all the way back to the base camp right now.

 
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El Floppo said:
We were looking at waiting another ten hours? When does that put the next rescue attempt, in US time?
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Thailand is exactly 12 hours ahead of Central Daylight Time ... so it's almost 2 a.m. over there right now.

They've said "10 hours", but they've actually given the rescue divers a full night's rest after each round trip. Based on that, the next set or rescue divers will probably go into the cave again in about 6-8 hours and start coming back out about 7-8 hours after that.

 
Doug B said:
Thailand is exactly 12 hours ahead of Central Daylight Time ... so it's almost 2 a.m. over there right now.

They've said "10 hours", but they've actually given the rescue divers a full night's rest after each round trip. Based on that, the next set or rescue divers will probably go into the cave again in about 6-8 hours and start coming back out about 7-8 hours after that.
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Doug... Your updates and info have been awesome in here. :thumbup:

Any sense of whether the caves are more/less flooded? 

 
belljr said:
if it really is 10 hours probably - 8pm our time
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You're East Coast, so this would be 7 a.m. in Thailand. That's an earlier start than the past two days -- however, they are going for five rescues on the third day, not just four. So getting an earlier start makes a lot of sense.

 
El Floppo said:
Any sense of whether the caves are more/less flooded? 
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From what I can piece together, levels have been steady since the rescues started.

The most unsung -- but crucial -- effort made so far has been the water diversion in the surrounding terrain. The weather has cooperated, but just getting the interior cave passages mostly manageable has been incredible.

 
culdeus said:
Oxygen level was low a few days back where boys were.  This ok now or what?
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For the first few days after the team was found, the oxygen level was being depleted by the number of divers and support crew working simultaneously in the cave passages. They cut back on the number of people working in the cave, and that has at least helped to stabilize the oxygen level.

Someone on another board speculated that a bunch of O2 canisters could have been delivered to the area where the team was standing, and simply vented into the open space. This hasn't been reported anywhere that I've seen, but it's at least educated speculation. Canisters are known to have been brought to the team for the purposes of the SCUBA crash course. Bringing some more canisters to help stabilize the oxygen level is at least feasible.

 
Something else that should help them get five rescues completed Tuesday:

[Narongsak Osatanakorn, the head of the joint command centre coordinating the operation] says the mission time is getting faster: rescuers have now shaved two hours off their initial estimate for the time it would take to ferry each boy out.

The first operation today commenced at 11am and the first boy emerged around 4.30pm, according to some reports. That’s about five-and-a-half hours, much less than the 11 hour round-trip some divers were making to the boys earlier this week.
 
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Cutting the duration of the entire round trip in half is a big deal.

 
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Doug B said:
For the first few days after the team was found, the oxygen level was being depleted by the number of divers and support crew working simultaneously in the cave passages. They cut back on the number of people working in the cave, and that has at least helped to stabilize the oxygen level.

Someone on another board speculated that a bunch of O2 canisters could have been delivered to the area where the team was standing, and simply vented into the open space. This hasn't been reported anywhere that I've seen, but it's at least educated speculation. Canisters are known to have been brought to the team for the purposes of the SCUBA crash course. Bringing some more canisters to help stabilize the oxygen level is at least feasible.
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It wouldn't have to be oxygen, it could just be compressed air that was vented from the tanks (20% oxygen). Also, with fewer people in there (8 already out) less oxygen is being used

 
Final mission underway.  They’re going for the rest of them.   T&P

 
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It sounds as if the youngest boy (11) is among the last group.

It's 19 rescue divers, 4 kids, the coach, the doc, and the SEALS that have been staying with the team the last few days. Whole bunch of people attempting to make their way through that cave today.

 
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