The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (2 Viewers)

[Stoneworker]

I grew up in the same Catholic church as Madonna.

So I'm a tad skeptical of the theory that having a strict religious upbringing translates into a more modest dress code

 

[Zow]

i lost my religion back in 84 but it ends up it had just slid behind some socks in my top drawer so now i am all set take that to the bank brochachos

I lost mine in the corner while in the spot-light.

 

[Zow]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

 

[Gatorade]

Sorry, I won't be replying to this interesting discussion anymore. The more I try to explain my opinion, the more my words are twisted. Have fun. God Bless!

 

[djmich]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

 

[Zow]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

 

[djmich]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

Thanks. I don't know the facts here.

But I'd hope simply and civilly disagreeing with another's opinion wouldn't be too heavy a lift in the kindness department.

 

[AAABatteries]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls

• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

 

[General Malaise]

I grew up in the same Catholic church as Madonna.

So I'm a tad skeptical of the theory that having a strict religious upbringing translates into a more modest dress code

Rochester > hey

 

[bigbottom]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls
• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

Great post. And, also, I miss all the good times and fellowship I enjoyed back in the day at our local opera house.

 

[Joe Bryant]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls
• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

Agreed. I usually talk of this as "3rd place" But same thing. It's the "other" primary place for connection outside of home and work. (and now of course, home and work bur for many people).

I think it's an important part of society. And as much as I like (obviously) our online virtual community, I think losing real in person community is a challenge.

 

[General Malaise]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls
• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

Would you consider live sporting events a 3rd spot?

 

[massraider]

Pretty sure complaining about how young women dress has been happening for hundreds of years.

Pretty sure I remember it happening when I was a kid. In fact, I am more than pretty sure.

 

[Joe Bryant]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls
• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

Would you consider live sporting events a 3rd spot?

A little. If you got to sit with the same folks and that kind of thing.

Usually, it's seen more like a place where you have friends and connection. Like being a regular at a bar or restaurant.

 

[Zow]

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

Thanks. I don't know the facts here.

But I'd hope simply and civilly disagreeing with another's opinion wouldn't be too heavy a lift in the kindness department.

1. He was asserting a fact, not an opinion. I naturally feel badly when I say to somebody, "actually, you're wrong, the fact is X..." I know I sound like a know-it-all.
2. Literally after my post, he claimed his words were twisted and he was quitting the conversation. So, your hope apparently didn't occur.

 

[AAABatteries]

To maybe help get this back on track....

I'm attending an event tonight at a place called Your 3rd Spot. Now, being the moron I am I was not familiar with that phrase which apparently goes back to the 90"s??

Anyway, somewhat appropriate to this discussion as I feel like church isn't the only 3rd spot that has taken a hit - both in the last 20 years but also since the pandemic.

Here's a list I pulled quickly from a website for popular 3rd spots:

• Cafes and coffee shops
• Shopping malls
• Barber shops and hair salons
• Bowling alleys and arcades
• Libraries and bookstores
• Bars and pubs
• Community centers and clubs
• Gyms and health clubs
• Places of worship
• Theatres and opera houses
• Parks
• Virtual third places

I think a big common denominator in the death of many of these is the last one and the internet in general. Some of those in the list are still doing well or even improving but places like libraries, shopping malls, bowling alleys/arcades and many community centers/clubs are all dying. Many no longer have any interest. We've also talked in here about movie theaters. I think it's very easy to be a homebody or lazy or introvert and you don't need those places. But it presents some bad dynamics for connecting with people, learning social skills and potentially meeting a mate.

Would you consider live sporting events a 3rd spot?

I think I would and those are booming for sure.

 

[Joe Bryant]

1. He was asserting a fact, not an opinion.

He said, " I think that rarely happens today."

It's not a huge deal. The "trying to be kind" just struck me as interesting.

 

[Zow]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

From a purely legal perspective, it's because there's been a significant trend this century to more harshly punish sex crimes (and acts such as public nudity, indecency, and urination oftentimes fall into this bucket depending on the jurisdiction).

Until this point, my input on this issue was a legal one and not to be conflated with "general standards." Since you're asking my actual opinion on something vague like general standards, my personal opinion (supported only at this time by my anecdotal reflection on my 40 years on Earth) is that some areas of acceptability have gotten more lax and some have not. For example, insensitive racism and misogyny used to be far more rampant whereas currently violence and sex scenes are far more prevalent than before. Alternatively, I'd also say that we've gotten more technical about warning potential viewers/listeners of such relaxed standards (i.e. TV shows may have gotten more gory, sexual, and profanity-laced - but viewers are far better warned in advance).

 

[Zow]

1. He was asserting a fact, not an opinion.

He said, " I think that rarely happens today."

It's not a huge deal. The "trying to be kind" just struck me as interesting.

And if I say, "I think the sun is purple" it doesn't make it an opinion, but, okay, fair point otherwise.

I said "trying to be kind" because he was getting beaten up on a bit for his posts.

 

[thecatch]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

From a purely legal perspective, it's because there's been a significant trend this century to more harshly punish sex crimes (and acts such as public nudity, indecency, and urination oftentimes fall into this bucket depending on the jurisdiction).

Until this point, my input on this issue was a legal one and not to be conflated with "general standards." Since you're asking my actual opinion on something vague like general standards, my personal opinion (supported only at this time by my anecdotal reflection on my 40 years on Earth) is that some areas of acceptability have gotten more lax and some have time. For example, insensitive racism and misogyny used to be far more rampant whereas currently violence and sex scenes are far more prevalent than before. Alternatively, I'd also say that we've gotten more technical about warning potential viewers/listeners of such relaxed standards (i.e. TV shows may have gotten more gory, sexual, and profanity-laced - but viewers are far better warned in advance).

There has?

 

[Harry Manback]

1. He was asserting a fact, not an opinion.

He said, " I think that rarely happens today."

It's not a huge deal. The "trying to be kind" just struck me as interesting.

And if I say, "I think the sun is purple" it doesn't make it an opinion, but, okay, fair point otherwise.

I said "trying to be kind" because he was getting beaten up on a bit for his posts.

“Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts”

 

[Joe Bryant]

1. He was asserting a fact, not an opinion.

He said, " I think that rarely happens today."

It's not a huge deal. The "trying to be kind" just struck me as interesting.

And if I say, "I think the sun is purple" it doesn't make it an opinion, but, okay, fair point otherwise.

I said "trying to be kind" because he was getting beaten up on a bit for his posts.

No worries. We'll just disagree there. When I hear someone say "I think ________" I understand that to mean that's what they think. Not that they're asserting a fact.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

I assume you're saying the college skew has college women dressing immodestly as a way to compete for the attraction of the lower number of men. Is that right? But I'm talking about HS girls (heck, even some of the junior high girls who show up to HS football games are pretty immodest). Does this 60/40 college skew impact how HS girls dress? Maybe they see, and look up to, college girls and imitate that? Is that the argument?

That is actually my argument, yes. Young women face a lot more competition than they used to, both because women now outnumber men in lots of settings, but also because young men have become not-so-great prospects during this same time period (speaking with a very broad brush here of course). It is not a coincidence that "hook up" culture -- which was unknown when we were growing up -- became normalized right around the time that women started making up a majority of college campuses, for example. This kind of thing flows throughout the culture, including down to middle schools.

In other words, suppose somebody told you back in the 1980s that we would exactly flip the proportion of men and women on college campuses. All of us would have predicted that women would need to start competing more by giving men stuff that they want (easy sex) while men would quit trying so hard to impress women (by doing things they enjoy, like smoking weed and playing video games). That is exactly 100% what happened! Regardless of whether we think this is good or bad, it's just interesting to see how this stuff plays out, and it should help us make sense of the world.

(This is a little off-topic so I'll just let it go. Just saying that I've noticed the same trend as you, but I don't ascribe it to religion personally).

 

[bigbottom]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

I assume you're saying the college skew has college women dressing immodestly as a way to compete for the attraction of the lower number of men. Is that right? But I'm talking about HS girls (heck, even some of the junior high girls who show up to HS football games are pretty immodest). Does this 60/40 college skew impact how HS girls dress? Maybe they see, and look up to, college girls and imitate that? Is that the argument?

That is actually my argument, yes. Young women face a lot more competition than they used to, both because women now outnumber men in lots of settings, but also because young men have become not-so-great prospects during this same time period (speaking with a very broad brush here of course). It is not a coincidence that "hook up" culture -- which was unknown when we were growing up -- became normalized right around the time that women started making up a majority of college campuses, for example. This kind of thing flows throughout the culture, including down to middle schools.

In other words, suppose somebody told you back in the 1980s that we would exactly flip the proportion of men and women on college campuses. All of us would have predicted that women would need to start competing more by giving men stuff that they want (easy sex) while men would quit trying so hard to impress women (by doing things they enjoy, like smoking weed and playing video games). That is exactly 100% what happened! Regardless of whether we think this is good or bad, it's just interesting to see how this stuff plays out, and it should help us make sense of the world.

(This is a little off-topic so I'll just let it go. Just saying that I've noticed the same trend as you, but I don't ascribe it to religion personally).

Yeah, when I was in college, it was probably a 65 - 35 ratio at my “polytechnic” school and this was during the “grunge years”. Female coeds were wearing lots of flannel and oversized sweatshirts.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

 

[General Malaise]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

 

[The Gator]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying.

Imo

Don't forget, the bible was written by males who wanted to control women. Of course as the younger generation gets away from that they're more free to express themselves.

 

[Zow]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

From a purely legal perspective, it's because there's been a significant trend this century to more harshly punish sex crimes (and acts such as public nudity, indecency, and urination oftentimes fall into this bucket depending on the jurisdiction).

Until this point, my input on this issue was a legal one and not to be conflated with "general standards." Since you're asking my actual opinion on something vague like general standards, my personal opinion (supported only at this time by my anecdotal reflection on my 40 years on Earth) is that some areas of acceptability have gotten more lax and some have time. For example, insensitive racism and misogyny used to be far more rampant whereas currently violence and sex scenes are far more prevalent than before. Alternatively, I'd also say that we've gotten more technical about warning potential viewers/listeners of such relaxed standards (i.e. TV shows may have gotten more gory, sexual, and profanity-laced - but viewers are far better warned in advance).

There has?

That's been my experience in the jurisdictions I've worked in.

 

[thecatch]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

From a purely legal perspective, it's because there's been a significant trend this century to more harshly punish sex crimes (and acts such as public nudity, indecency, and urination oftentimes fall into this bucket depending on the jurisdiction).

Until this point, my input on this issue was a legal one and not to be conflated with "general standards." Since you're asking my actual opinion on something vague like general standards, my personal opinion (supported only at this time by my anecdotal reflection on my 40 years on Earth) is that some areas of acceptability have gotten more lax and some have time. For example, insensitive racism and misogyny used to be far more rampant whereas currently violence and sex scenes are far more prevalent than before. Alternatively, I'd also say that we've gotten more technical about warning potential viewers/listeners of such relaxed standards (i.e. TV shows may have gotten more gory, sexual, and profanity-laced - but viewers are far better warned in advance).

There has?

That's been my experience in the jurisdictions I've worked in.

This sounds ludicrous to me but I also live in California.

 

[Zow]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.

Also, I'm trying to be kind to him here, but the suggestion that public nudity/indecency/exposure is prosecuted not as harshly is... not accurate.

You think showing more skin is less acceptable now than say in the 90’s?

No.

I'm saying public nudity is not punished less harshly and, more probably, punished more harshly.

Interesting. Is that a specific thing around nudity and laws I guess? Would you say that in general standards of what is acceptable in terms of music, television, social interactions and personal behavior is not more lax than in the 90's?

From a purely legal perspective, it's because there's been a significant trend this century to more harshly punish sex crimes (and acts such as public nudity, indecency, and urination oftentimes fall into this bucket depending on the jurisdiction).

Until this point, my input on this issue was a legal one and not to be conflated with "general standards." Since you're asking my actual opinion on something vague like general standards, my personal opinion (supported only at this time by my anecdotal reflection on my 40 years on Earth) is that some areas of acceptability have gotten more lax and some have time. For example, insensitive racism and misogyny used to be far more rampant whereas currently violence and sex scenes are far more prevalent than before. Alternatively, I'd also say that we've gotten more technical about warning potential viewers/listeners of such relaxed standards (i.e. TV shows may have gotten more gory, sexual, and profanity-laced - but viewers are far better warned in advance).

There has?

That's been my experience in the jurisdictions I've worked in.

This sounds ludicrous to me but I also live in California.

1. As I tell my CA clients, when you cross over the Colorado River you're in a whole new world from a criminal law perspective.
2. The comment above notwithstanding, I've been surprised to learn how strict the CA sex offender registration laws are and how challenging the probation terms are for offenders on probation in CA (I have clients who transfer their probations there and I'm surprised to learn that sometimes they'll have to register there where they wouldn't in my jurisdiction and/or their probation terms are far stricter).

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

Maybe my mainstream large old mostly conservative church in the South isn't actually mainstream, but I don't see the things you're talking about as very connected to anything regarding my faith or how I live my life as a Christian.

I'm sure there are some that do, but I don't know any Christians that care about what JLo or Shakira are doing at the Super Bowl. Much less having a "grand mal" seizure over dresses. I don't see religion used by anyone I know trying to keep anyone illiterate or ignorant.

You repeatedly mention "puritans". I understand that to be mostly a 16th and 17th-century thing. No doubt there are lots of things people did before us in the 16th and 17th century that we don't agree with today. How one dresses is probably the least of those.

You're 100% right, of course, with how fast information travels. Again, I could be out of touch, but the speed of news has little to no effect on my faith. I'm not sure how it would. I love the speed at which information travels and make a living from it.

You could also well be right that religion and faith will continue to become less of a factor. And even a "footnote".

I think I'm less sure of the future than you are there and have less certainty about how everything will go. You definitely seem to have much more figured out about everything than I do.

 

[Peggy]

Wait. So a Harry Manback is sending private messages to a Big Bottom? Don't need religion to know that is just soooooo wrong.

 

[rockaction]

When somebody says “If I were” it means they aren’t, in general terms, doing that which they follow it with. It’s the subjunctive.

Woz, I don’t even know what to say. You just took a page to refute something nobody had done.

 

[Sullie]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

I'm not preaching/scolding or anything at you but that expression caught my attention. And, again, I know everyone says it so this isn't necessarily directed at you just for everyone that's reading this. And I started to write a big thing out but I stopped myself because I'm not the correct person who can eloquently explain why saying this is a problem. I believe that Fr. Mike Schmitz does a fantastic job of explaining why taking the Lord's name in vain is a problem, without being preachy, without being judgmental but rather explaining it in well formed thoughts and words. Please consider giving it a view.

 

[Jayrod]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

I think you assessment is skewed by you personal and ideas of morality.

In other words, that's just like you're opinion, man.

 

[dkp993]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

Can you (anyone) name 1 generation in the last 4 that didn’t feel like the young people of the “current” generation didn’t dress less modestly then theirs? It’s one of the classic middle age and old person tropes. “Back in my day…. “ it’s right up there with “work ethic” and “lacking respect”

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Non-paywall version posted on msn.com

for all of its faults, works a bit like a retaining wall to hold back the destabilizing pressure of American hyper-individualism, which threatens to swell and spill over in its absence.

Like to know what happens when this destabilizing force of "hyper-individualism" swells and spills over.

People are focused on themselves and not families. Not meant to be a judgement, just a data point.

Religion

That is nonsense. Scandinavians weren't religious 10 years ago when birth rates were high.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Non-paywall version posted on msn.com

for all of its faults, works a bit like a retaining wall to hold back the destabilizing pressure of American hyper-individualism, which threatens to swell and spill over in its absence.

Like to know what happens when this destabilizing force of "hyper-individualism" swells and spills over.

People are focused on themselves and not families. Not meant to be a judgement, just a data point.

Religion

Having less children could be a sign of thinking about others more not less

 

[djmich]

It ci

Non-paywall version posted on msn.com

for all of its faults, works a bit like a retaining wall to hold back the destabilizing pressure of American hyper-individualism, which threatens to swell and spill over in its absence.

Like to know what happens when this destabilizing force of "hyper-individualism" swells and spills over.

People are focused on themselves and not families. Not meant to be a judgement, just a data point.

Religion

Having less children could be a sign of thinking about others more not less

It could also be a sign we have too much micro plastic in our balls.

 

[bigbottom]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

I'm not preaching/scolding or anything at you but that expression caught my attention. And, again, I know everyone says it so this isn't necessarily directed at you just for everyone that's reading this. And I started to write a big thing out but I stopped myself because I'm not the correct person who can eloquently explain why saying this is a problem. I believe that Fr. Mike Schmitz does a fantastic job of explaining why taking the Lord's name in vain is a problem, without being preachy, without being judgmental but rather explaining it in well formed thoughts and words. Please consider giving it a view.

An interesting video. Thanks for bringing up the issue. I’ll need to think on it a bit as I have always had a different take on what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain. If it’s a sin to say Oh my God in surprise because you are using His name without intentional awareness and reverence, that would mean saying God bless you when someone sneezes is similarly a sin.

 

[AAABatteries]

I think we're grossly understating how much the internet and social media have impacted most of the topics we've discussed in this thread (how women dress, increased isolation, access to information, etc.)

The people who cared about how women dress are either dead or dying. I'm 51 - GenX. Our generation is driving the bus right now. We don't care how women dress. Janet Jackson's Nipple 20 years ago threw this country into a grand mal seizure. Those puritans who cried about it are gone or have relinquished power. WE - the Royal We - us.....don't care.

We legalized weed. We cay say God D**n on TV and radio. The people outraged at JLo and Shakira shaking their thangs at a recent SB got laughed back to the dark corners of their outdated world views. We don't care if a man marries a man - in fact, we support it.

It's a sea change. A good one. We have information available to us in nanoseconds. We don't have to wait for a paper to get our news. Religion was used by mankind to keep the masses ignorant and illiterate. That's a fact. That's why the Bible remained in Latin for so long and people were discouraged from learning how to read.

We are evolving faster and faster and soon enough, our generation will relinquish power to a new generation of folks who have even less use for religion or outdated puritanical ideals of what a woman should wear or who should get married or what I smoke outside in my home. Soon enough, religion here will be but a footnote.

Imo

I'm not preaching/scolding or anything at you but that expression caught my attention. And, again, I know everyone says it so this isn't necessarily directed at you just for everyone that's reading this. And I started to write a big thing out but I stopped myself because I'm not the correct person who can eloquently explain why saying this is a problem. I believe that Fr. Mike Schmitz does a fantastic job of explaining why taking the Lord's name in vain is a problem, without being preachy, without being judgmental but rather explaining it in well formed thoughts and words. Please consider giving it a view.

An interesting video. Thanks for bringing up the issue. I’ll need to think on it a bit as I have always had a different take on what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain. If it’s a sin to say Oh my God in surprise because you are using His name without intentional awareness and reverence, that would mean saying God bless you when someone sneezes is similarly a sin.

I have a similar take. I think there has to be intent behind the words. Most people say those things without even thinking about God.

 

[massraider]

If it’s a sin to say Oh my God in surprise because you are using His name without intentional awareness and reverence, that would mean saying God bless you when someone sneezes is similarly a sin.

Not if you subscribe to one of the theories for how this tradition came to be.

Some have offered an explanation suggesting that people once held the folk belief that a person's soul could be thrown from their body when they sneezed, that sneezing otherwise opened the body to invasion by the Devil or evil spirits, or that sneezing was the body's effort to force out an invading evil presence. In these cases, "God bless you" or "bless you" is used as a sort of shield against evil. The Irish Folk story "Master and Man" by Thomas Crofton Croker, collected by William Butler Yeats, describes this variation. Moreover, in the past some people may have thought that the heart stops beating during a sneeze, and that the phrase "God bless you" encourages the heart to continue beating.

In some cultures, sneezing is seen as a sign of good fortune or God's beneficence. Writing around 400 BC, Xenophon records a chance sneeze as being seen as a good omen from god. Alternative responses to sneezing exist in various languages.

God bless you - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bigbottom]

If it’s a sin to say Oh my God in surprise because you are using His name without intentional awareness and reverence, that would mean saying God bless you when someone sneezes is similarly a sin.

Not if you subscribe to one of the theories for how this tradition came to be.

Some have offered an explanation suggesting that people once held the folk belief that a person's soul could be thrown from their body when they sneezed, that sneezing otherwise opened the body to invasion by the Devil or evil spirits, or that sneezing was the body's effort to force out an invading evil presence. In these cases, "God bless you" or "bless you" is used as a sort of shield against evil. The Irish Folk story "Master and Man" by Thomas Crofton Croker, collected by William Butler Yeats, describes this variation. Moreover, in the past some people may have thought that the heart stops beating during a sneeze, and that the phrase "God bless you" encourages the heart to continue beating.

In some cultures, sneezing is seen as a sign of good fortune or God's beneficence. Writing around 400 BC, Xenophon records a chance sneeze as being seen as a good omen from god. Alternative responses to sneezing exist in various languages.

God bless you - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But people aren’t invoking the name of God with intention and awareness and reverence when they say God bless you after a sneeze. That’s his point with Oh my God in surprise. If you were looking to the heavens and praying to God when you said Oh my God, that wouldn’t be a sin because you are doing so with intention, awareness and reverence. It’s not about how the phrase came to be. It’s about how you use it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

Can you (anyone) name 1 generation in the last 4 that didn’t feel like the young people of the “current” generation didn’t dress less modestly then theirs? It’s one of the classic middle age and old person tropes. “Back in my day…. “ it’s right up there with “work ethic” and “lacking respect”

Just observing. I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[Sullie]

So, G-D is what I was referring to, Fr. Mike himself said in the video that some of his priest friends disagree with him about using the "oh my God" phrase. He pretty clearly said that's his take but what I did appreciate in the video is that he's making you think about when you should use God's name . I think the main reason I posted the video isn't about that though, it's about the fact that even though using G-D has been normalized, fashionable or acceptable it should not be said, it's a sin. And, I don't think most people that know me really even know how much that offends me since I swear like a sailor on shore leave. I've been trying to stop myself for a long time but to paraphrase from a Christmas story "I work in profanity the way other artists work in oils or clay. It is my true medium, a master." I'm working on trying to clean that up.

 

[bigbottom]

So, G-D is what I was referring to, Fr. Mike himself said in the video that some of his priest friends disagree with him about using the "oh my God" phrase. He pretty clearly said that's his take but what I did appreciate in the video is that he's making you thinking about when you should use God's name . I think the main reason I posted the video isn't about that though, it's about the fact that even though using G-D has been normalized, fashionable or acceptable it should not be said, it's a sin. And, I don't think most people that know me really even know how much that offends me since I swear like a sailor on shore leave. I've been trying to stop myself for a long time but to paraphrase from a Christmas story "I work in profanity the way other artists work in oils or clay. It is my true medium, a master." Again, I'm working on trying to clean that up.

It’s an interesting take that I will give some serious thought. Thanks for posting!

 

[Captain Cranks]

I think I'm less sure of the future than you are there and have less certainty about how everything will go. You definitely seem to have much more figured out about everything than I do.

The trend certainly supports his thesis, both in the short and long term. A more interesting question for me is whether humanity replaces it with atheistic community structures. I know there is a yearning for this by some in the atheist community who do acknowledge the personal and social benefits of belonging to a "church".

 

[ConstruxBoy]

.

Yeah, when I was in college, it was probably a 65 - 35 ratio at my “polytechnic” school and this was during the “grunge years”. Female coeds were wearing lots of flannel and oversized sweatshirts.

To be fair, that time period was better for "bigger than you thought"

 

[Joe Bryant]

So, G-D is what I was referring to, Fr. Mike himself said in the video that some of his priest friends disagree with him about using the "oh my God" phrase. He pretty clearly said that's his take but what I did appreciate in the video is that he's making you think about when you should use God's name . I think the main reason I posted the video isn't about that though, it's about the fact that even though using G-D has been normalized, fashionable or acceptable it should not be said, it's a sin. And, I don't think most people that know me really even know how much that offends me since I swear like a sailor on shore leave. I've been trying to stop myself for a long time but to paraphrase from a Christmas story "I work in profanity the way other artists work in oils or clay. It is my true medium, a master." I'm working on trying to clean that up.

Thanks for sharing. I'd never thought of it like that.