The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[Captain Cranks]

He’s been on the board 13yrs, a frequent poster and in the middle of a religion thread. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that he knows who has openly shared they are religious at least to some extent. A few shared just on the last few pages alone.

Why would his personal view on who or who isn't being an *** hold any objective value? I see pro-religious people who frequently act like asses on this board. What does any of that prove other than our personal sensitivities?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Sure, there could be a bit of that. I will track to be more clear in my thoughts. My post was about the internet in general and how these conversations usually go. IMO that is where the tone ends up in the post you quoted. I think the frustration was that people had hoped to avoid that in here. Could we at least agree that the tone of the thread shifted in the last couple days?

There is certainly one post that caused things to go sideways and even I cringed when I saw it. However, that single offense is now being attached to an entire group. So now it's morphed into religious guy good, atheist bad which is about as useful as religious guy dumb, atheist smart.

 

[the moops]

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

I guess I was just taking the phrase literally. If a dozen people attend a daily mass, the place is generally pretty empty otherwise right? And even if the mass is one of those super long ones, that still leaves way more hours of non mass time

 

[massraider]

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

It was also one guy who said something, and it's not like everyone else jumped in and agreed with him.

There has been some level headed discussion, some stuff I didn't know, and ignoring all that to jump on one comment?

Don't swing at every pitch in the dirt.

 

[bigbottom]

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

I guess I was just taking the phrase literally. If a dozen people attend a daily mass, the place is generally pretty empty otherwise right? And even if the mass is one of those super long ones, that still leaves way more hours of non mass time

I think you cut off the rest of my post which speaks exactly to the question you are raising. Here is the full post:

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

Here’s the Calendar for my church. There are generally 3-5 events every weekday. So not empty most of the week. And I would imagine this would be pretty normal for most Catholic churches.

As for Protestant churches, I have less experience, but I would imagine that they have a variety of youth events, Bible studies, young singles ministries and other events and gatherings that occur during the week. I doubt the buildings are standing empty.

 

[bigbottom]

And the above calendar doesn’t capture all of the couples counseling, marriage counseling, individual confessions, and all the other informal events and meetings that happen at our church and most Catholic churches every day.

I also know of many Protestant churches that have daily day care services. Both my kids went to day care at a church. Five days a week for multiple years.

 

[dgreen]

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

It was also one guy who said something, and it's not like everyone else jumped in and agreed with him.

There has been some level headed discussion, some stuff I didn't know, and ignoring all that to jump on one comment?

Don't swing at every pitch in the dirt.

Are we talking about the "brown guys" post? I mean, sure, I don't think it's in the running for POTY and seemed pretty snarky to me, but I thought the conversation surrounding those comments ended up just fine.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If I drove over to my church right now, would it be empty? No. Would it be filled to capacity? No.

So what? Restaurants, movie theaters, concert halls, sports arenas, bars, reception venues, city parks, etc. operate well below capacity most of the time, and nobody sees that as a problem. My employer has well over a billion dollars of physical capital that mostly sits there completely empty for three months out of each year.

 

[HomerSimpson]

My is that often the negativity and snark is laid on thicker from one side of the occasion, and I have been guilty of that too. The tone is often people going to church are dumb for believing in old dudes in the sky or reading 2000 year old books. That level of discourse is not matched from the other side of the conversation in my experience. I took rock's post as saying as much.

It was also one guy who said something, and it's not like everyone else jumped in and agreed with him.

There has been some level headed discussion, some stuff I didn't know, and ignoring all that to jump on one comment?

Don't swing at every pitch in the dirt.

Are we talking about the "brown guys" post? I mean, sure, I don't think it's in the running for POTY and seemed pretty snarky to me, but I thought the conversation surrounding those comments ended up just fine.

I made the "brown guys" comment. It wasn't meant to be racist at all. Snarky maybe. My girlfriend is a "brown girl". I was just trying to say A LOT of the "Christians" i have met in my life believe Jesus was a white guy. Because they are white and it gives them the warm a fuzzies and makes them think everything they think is right. I personally don't think Jesus ever existed. But that's just my opinion. I'm sorry if I set off a crazy debate on NFL THURSDAY!!!!!!!!!

 

[culdeus]

Around here people just went from denominational churches to power point and guitar churches. I don't know what happens to the old buildings either. Some sit on some extremely valuable land.

Gotta thing denominational pastors and whatever just got jobs at the next Jesus bro church of the week.

 

[General Malaise]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

I do think it unfair to label all of religion a grift. I don't believe the church I was raised in was anything close to a grift.

***Stephen A. Smith voice*** HOWEVER

There are more than a few grifters using religion to enrich themselves. Kenneth Copeland, for example. His ilk taint religion for some. I think it is fair to call a spade a spade here.

 

[General Malaise]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So you don't buy into the United States being the great "melting pot"?

I don't think the decline in religion or morals has anything to do with being a melting pot. I'd guess immigrants (legal or illegal) profile to be more religious than natural born citizens.

Oh, I agree.

 

[Harry Manback]

Not sure, but what is the negative consquence of Churches shuttering their doors? Those big buildings that are empty most of the week can be repurposed to serve the community or can be used to house a business that will pay taxes and contribute to the town/city.

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".
2. The vast majority already serve the community in multiple ways.
3. All non-profits don't pay taxes, not just churches.
4. What is stopping you or anyone else from utilizing the massive amounts of empty buildings in most cities to do these things?

Yikes ok

 

[dgreen]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

I do think it unfair to label all of religion a grift. I don't believe the church I was raised in was anything close to a grift.

***Stephen A. Smith voice*** HOWEVER

There are more than a few grifters using religion to enrich themselves. Kenneth Copeland, for example. His ilk taint religion for some. I think it is fair to call a spade a spade here.

Yeah, most churches are small. The preachers at the majority of churches aren't raking in the money. Being a preacher can be a pretty tough gig for not much financial reward. Like you said, the Copelands of the world skew the picture in many people's view.

 

[Harry Manback]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

This is uh...this is something.

 

[Harry Manback]

Is the only way you can effectively be religious or hold religious beliefs is by attending a church?

 

[bigbottom]

Is the only way you can effectively be religious or hold religious beliefs is by attending a church?

No.

 

[Harry Manback]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So religion is a requirement for someone to be moral? Or specifically attending church?

Do you think you cannot be a moral person without religion? What does diversity have to do with morals? Are some cultures inherently less moral than others? How is climate change a religion? Which cultures were destroyed by moral decline?

 

[bigbottom]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

 

[Harry Manback]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are two long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Regarding point 1, community can be found online now. See: FBGs. People can join like-minded communities on Reddit, on various forums, Discord etc. People can share their beliefs on Facebook and X and Instagram and TikTok.

People have dozens of platforms to consume and share their interests whereas 50 years ago your options were limited to what was nearby in your town or city.

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

 

[bigbottom]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are two long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Regarding point 1, community can be found online now. See: FBGs. People can join like-minded communities on Reddit, on various forums, Discord etc. People can share their beliefs on Facebook and X and Instagram and TikTok.

People have dozens of platforms to consume and share their interests whereas 50 years ago your options were limited to what was nearby in your town or city.

That’s a good point. I was sort of getting at that when I referred to “in person” but you said it better than I did.

 

[bigbottom]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

 

[dgreen]

Is the only way you can effectively be religious or hold religious beliefs is by attending a church?

In regards to Christianity, if you are living out (“being religious”) Christian beliefs, I think you will be in community with other Christians who are also living out their beliefs in service to others. To me, that’s church.

So, I might say Yes as it pertains to Christianity, but I don’t want to give the impression that I think you have to attend a typical church in a typical building. I do think you should be living out your beliefs with other like-minded people, whether that involves being in a particular building at 10 am every Sunday or looks like something else.

 

[Rich Conway]

And the above calendar doesn’t capture all of the couples counseling, marriage counseling, individual confessions, and all the other informal events and meetings that happen at our church and most Catholic churches every day.

I also know of many Protestant churches that have daily day care services. Both my kids went to day care at a church. Five days a week for multiple years.

I'm not religious and I don't attend church. However, I walk my dog a lot and we pass by four different churches at various times of the day and week. It would be fair to say that two of them are mostly empty most of the time and the other two frequently have something going on to the point where I would rarely describe them as empty. To IvanK's subsequent point, we also pass lots of non-religious buildings that are mostly empty most of the time (and lots that aren't).

 

[dutch]

And the above calendar doesn’t capture all of the couples counseling, marriage counseling, individual confessions, and all the other informal events and meetings that happen at our church and most Catholic churches every day.

I also know of many Protestant churches that have daily day care services. Both my kids went to day care at a church. Five days a week for multiple years.

I'm not religious and I don't attend church. However, I walk my dog a lot and we pass by four different churches at various times of the day and week. It would be fair to say that two of them are mostly empty most of the time and the other two frequently have something going on to the point where I would rarely describe them as empty. To IvanK's subsequent point, we also pass lots of non-religious buildings that are mostly empty most of the time (and lots that aren't).

In my neck of the woods, there are a couple of executive centers that aren't full and never have been since they were first developed 10 years ago. One has a brewery in the back area and 5 dining establishments up front but the middle buildings and suits have numerous empty spaces. Have no idea how the management company makes money. The center was never really needed, imo, but builders and developers can't stand the empty farm land just sitting there so there they build.

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

Why are you doing this?

 

[Zow]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words).

I've heard forms of this argument before and the argument has always puzzled. Why can't a man simply seek to do good for the sake of doing so without the threat of punishment by some deity? Further, why can't a man simply "center his life" around making a positive impact because that seems

As to the grifting comment, I agree that's a bit harsh and should be more reserved for the Joel Osteen's of the world. I've been in plenty of catholic churches in my time (as I was devout in my catholic faith as a child until I studied religion intently in college) and they aren't exactly dripping with luxury nor are priests living it up with that tax exempt money.

That said, here are ways the catholic church has flowed in and out of my life just this past week:

1. They've provided a good school and are good to my kids. This is obviously a good thing.
2. While I cannot get into great detail, I've spent a good chunk of my work week addressing an allegation that a catholic school principal may have sexually assaulted a special needs child. This is, from any angle, obviously not a good thing.
3. Today, I'm volunteering at my kids' school/church with some other volunteers to teach kids chess. This is obviously a good thing.
4. A particular catholic church in a more prominent area reached out to my firm because they wanted to buy one of my firm's smaller satellite offices to, presumably, tear is down to make way for a much more convenient driveway for the church (basically, the church owns property around us it built up over time but they don't have a really good easement option for accessing the main road). When we responded that we would be open to doing a joint appraisal and potentially selling the real property to them at market value, their reply was essentially, "Wait, you expect us to pay market value? We're a church..." My partners and I laughed at the audacity and shut down any further negotiations. While I suppose this is not objectively a bad thing as they're free to take whatever market position they choose and if it winds up in a good outcome for them that's their prerogative, it certainly doesn't help to dispel the notion that the church doesn't expect financial benefits merely for being a church.

Again, the above is just this past week. I could get into stories about how the church gave me a great education and instilled a pretty reasonable moral code in me but also effectively tainted much of my teenage years because I spent most of my time so fearful of dying with a mortal sin on my soul that I declined to do fun things like dating, going to parties, etc. that arguably stunted my growth in maturity in those areas (see initial Woz dating threads for example). I could also mention the last time I went to Reconciliation where a visiting priest gave me his phone number so I could call him when I masturbated or my experience at my catholic college in watching it get sued in live time for harboring priest child molesters (only locked area of the campus!) and arguably covering up on-campus sexual assaults from a couple decades prior.

My points with the above and my use of my anecdotal experience with just one church is to demonstrate that churches are, ultimately, comprised of people and, much like all people, have many good and bad traits. Accordingly, I encourage all to see both sides of the coin and not reach overarching conclusions like "churches are all bad grifters" or "an atheist doesn't center his life around any thing" but, instead, see the issue for the complex one that it is.

 

[bigbottom]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

In the FFA? Yes.

 

[dutch]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

Hi Harry, just dropping in to say your posts come across adversarial and a touch aggressive like your itching for a fight. I think most here are keeping cool to not let the conversation derail too much. Vade in pace, my friend.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

I do think it unfair to label all of religion a grift. I don't believe the church I was raised in was anything close to a grift.

***Stephen A. Smith voice*** HOWEVER

There are more than a few grifters using religion to enrich themselves. Kenneth Copeland, for example. His ilk taint religion for some. I think it is fair to call a spade a spade here.

Yeah, most churches are small. The preachers at the majority of churches aren't raking in the money. Being a preacher can be a pretty tough gig for not much financial reward. Like you said, the Copelands of the world skew the picture in many people's view.

I don't know who Kenneth Copeland is, but I do think we Christians need to own the fact that people like Joel Olsteen (just picking him as my go-to example) are the face of our religion to people who don't belong to our group. We know that those folks aren't representative of our local denominations, but we can't really blame others for not knowing that. That's on us IMO.

 

[Zow]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

Rock, respectfully, in your post literally above this one you make the ridiculously myopic and snarky comment about how an atheist doesn't center his life around anything. You're do the exact same thing you're complaining about.

 

[bigbottom]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words).

I've heard forms of this argument before and the argument has always puzzled. Why can't a man simply seek to do good for the sake of doing so without the threat of punishment by some deity? Further, why can't a man simply "center his life" around making a positive impact because that seems

As to the grifting comment, I agree that's a bit harsh and should be more reserved for the Joel Osteen's of the world. I've been in plenty of catholic churches in my team (as I was devout in my catholic faith as a child until I studied religion intently in college) and they aren't exactly dripping with luxury nor are priests living it up with that tax exempt money.

That said, here are ways the catholic church has flowed in and out of my life just this past week:

1. They've provided a good school and are good to my kids. This is obviously a good thing.
2. While I cannot get into great detail, I've spent a good chunk of my work week addressing an allegation that a catholic school principal may have sexually assaulted a special needs child. This is, from any angle, obviously not a good thing.
3. Today, I'm volunteering at my kids' school/church with some other volunteers to teach kids chess. This is obviously a good thing.
4. A particular catholic church in a more prominent area reached out to my firm because they wanted to buy one of my firm's smaller satellite offices to, presumably, tear is down to make way for a much more convenient driveway for the church (basically, the church owns property around us it built up over time but they don't have a really good easement option for accessing the main road). When we responded that we would be open to doing a joint appraisal and potentially selling the real property to them at market value, their reply was essentially, "Wait, you expect us to pay market value? We're a church..." My partners and I laughed at the audacity and shut down any further negotiations. While I suppose this is not objectively a bad thing as they're free to take whatever market position they choose and if it winds up in a good outcome for them that's their prerogative, it certainly doesn't help to dispel the notion that the church doesn't expect financial benefits merely for being a church.

Again, the above is just this past week. I could get into stories about how the church gave me a great education and instilled a pretty reasonable moral code in me but also effectively tainted much of my teenage years because I spent most of my time so fearful of dying with a mortal sin on my soul that I declined to do fun things like dating, going to parties, etc. that arguably stunted my growth in maturity in those areas (see initial Woz dating threads for example). I could also mention the last time I went to Reconciliation where a visiting priest gave me his phone number so I could call him when I masturbated or my experience at my catholic college in watching it get sued in live time for harboring priest child molesters (only locked area of the campus!) and arguably covering up on-campus sexual assaults from a couple decades prior.

My points with the above and my use of my anecdotal experience with just one church is to demonstrate that churches are, ultimately, compromised of people and, much like all people, have many good and bad traits. Accordingly, I encourage all to see both sides of the coin and not reach overarching conclusions like "churches are all bad grifters" or "an atheist doesn't center his life around any thing" but, instead, see the issue for the complex one that it is.

I think you may have misunderstood Rock’s point. I think what he was simply saying is that if an atheist identified some aspect around which they centered their life, he would be careful not to ridicule it (e.g., a 2000 year old book of fairy tales).

 

[HomerSimpson]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

I agree with all of this. My Mom and Dad. And Grandma. Still go to the same church i grew up going to, but I couldn't afford to buy a house in that city, moved to another (I was already over Church) and never attend the Church that is literally 3 blocks from my house. And i don't want to spend my Sunday Mornings listening to some guy I barely know preach about the Bible which I've heard/read 100 times. I get it. "Jesus was cool." Let me eat a McGriddle and watch Football (obvious west coaster, breakfast and 10am starts for the win)

 

[Zow]

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

I guess I was just taking the phrase literally. If a dozen people attend a daily mass, the place is generally pretty empty otherwise right? And even if the mass is one of those super long ones, that still leaves way more hours of non mass time

It's been some time for me, but anecdotal experience is that if you walk into a Catholic church at some random time on some random day (let's say 10:30 AM on a Tuesday) there is generally going to be a couple people in there praying in solitude, a priest doing some things around the altar, maybe a small service for just the Euchrist, and, at least once per week, there's probably a school mass and a funeral mass.

In other words, they probably aren't as regularly empty as one would assume.

 

[bigbottom]

So now I came heavy-stepping. But grift? Seriously now.

I do think it unfair to label all of religion a grift. I don't believe the church I was raised in was anything close to a grift.

***Stephen A. Smith voice*** HOWEVER

There are more than a few grifters using religion to enrich themselves. Kenneth Copeland, for example. His ilk taint religion for some. I think it is fair to call a spade a spade here.

Yeah, most churches are small. The preachers at the majority of churches aren't raking in the money. Being a preacher can be a pretty tough gig for not much financial reward. Like you said, the Copelands of the world skew the picture in many people's view.

I don't know who Kenneth Copeland is, but I do think we Christians need to own the fact that people like Joel Olsteen (just picking him as my go-to example) are the face of our religion to people who don't belong to our group. We know that those folks aren't representative of our local denominations, but we can't really blame others for not knowing that. That's on us IMO.

Yes, the Catholic church I go to is an extremely modest church in a rural area with a very diverse membership (Hispanic, Filipino). And Osteen’s services in the former Rockets arena is 15 minutes from my house.

 

[Zow]

I mean if you told me an atheist centered his life around something, I’d be more careful in my wording of dissent (if I were to both dissent and take the time to put it into words).

I've heard forms of this argument before and the argument has always puzzled. Why can't a man simply seek to do good for the sake of doing so without the threat of punishment by some deity? Further, why can't a man simply "center his life" around making a positive impact because that seems

As to the grifting comment, I agree that's a bit harsh and should be more reserved for the Joel Osteen's of the world. I've been in plenty of catholic churches in my team (as I was devout in my catholic faith as a child until I studied religion intently in college) and they aren't exactly dripping with luxury nor are priests living it up with that tax exempt money.

That said, here are ways the catholic church has flowed in and out of my life just this past week:

1. They've provided a good school and are good to my kids. This is obviously a good thing.
2. While I cannot get into great detail, I've spent a good chunk of my work week addressing an allegation that a catholic school principal may have sexually assaulted a special needs child. This is, from any angle, obviously not a good thing.
3. Today, I'm volunteering at my kids' school/church with some other volunteers to teach kids chess. This is obviously a good thing.
4. A particular catholic church in a more prominent area reached out to my firm because they wanted to buy one of my firm's smaller satellite offices to, presumably, tear is down to make way for a much more convenient driveway for the church (basically, the church owns property around us it built up over time but they don't have a really good easement option for accessing the main road). When we responded that we would be open to doing a joint appraisal and potentially selling the real property to them at market value, their reply was essentially, "Wait, you expect us to pay market value? We're a church..." My partners and I laughed at the audacity and shut down any further negotiations. While I suppose this is not objectively a bad thing as they're free to take whatever market position they choose and if it winds up in a good outcome for them that's their prerogative, it certainly doesn't help to dispel the notion that the church doesn't expect financial benefits merely for being a church.

Again, the above is just this past week. I could get into stories about how the church gave me a great education and instilled a pretty reasonable moral code in me but also effectively tainted much of my teenage years because I spent most of my time so fearful of dying with a mortal sin on my soul that I declined to do fun things like dating, going to parties, etc. that arguably stunted my growth in maturity in those areas (see initial Woz dating threads for example). I could also mention the last time I went to Reconciliation where a visiting priest gave me his phone number so I could call him when I masturbated or my experience at my catholic college in watching it get sued in live time for harboring priest child molesters (only locked area of the campus!) and arguably covering up on-campus sexual assaults from a couple decades prior.

My points with the above and my use of my anecdotal experience with just one church is to demonstrate that churches are, ultimately, compromised of people and, much like all people, have many good and bad traits. Accordingly, I encourage all to see both sides of the coin and not reach overarching conclusions like "churches are all bad grifters" or "an atheist doesn't center his life around any thing" but, instead, see the issue for the complex one that it is.

I think you may have misunderstood Rock’s point. I think what he was simply saying is that if an atheist identified some aspect around which they centered their life, he would be careful not to ridicule it (e.g., a 2000 year old book of fairy tales).

Perhaps I did. But then that just illustrates the point that we need to recognize that perspectives are going to greatly differ and that each group may take something as an insult (which is how I interpreted Rock's point) when one may not have been intended.

 

[HomerSimpson]

It would be inaccurate to state that Catholic Churches with daily services are empty most of the week. Even if only a couple dozen people attend daily masses, that’s not empty.

I guess I was just taking the phrase literally. If a dozen people attend a daily mass, the place is generally pretty empty otherwise right? And even if the mass is one of those super long ones, that still leaves way more hours of non mass time

It's been some time for me, but anecdotal experience is that if you walk into a Catholic church at some random time on some random day (let's say 10:30 AM on a Tuesday) there is generally going to be a couple people in there praying in solitude, a priest doing some things around the altar, maybe a small service for just the Euchrist, and, at least once per week, there's probably a school mass and a funeral mass.

In other words, they probably aren't as regularly empty as one would assume.

I was recently in San Diego, we walked into a Catholic Church on a Tuesday. I'm not a believer anymore but I wanted to buy a post card for my Grandma and light a candle for her. (They have fake candles now haha) out of respect for her. But yeah, we were not the only people in there.

 

[massraider]

I completely agree we have seen loss of community and human interaction, going back a long time. I think it has happened for a ton of reasons, and less people going to church is one of them, I am sure.

It's not a reason to believe in a higher power. Faith isn't a book club.

 

[General Malaise]

Every time I see Osteen I think he looks like Martin Short after some really bad cosmetic surgeries.

 

[AAABatteries]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

Genuinely curious - is all that you describe what you see in person and is part of your daily interactions or what you see on TV or the internet? I frequently feel like I live in a different world than most people because I'd say 95%+ of my personal interactions with people are either neutral or positive - many very positive. Probably the worst thing that happens to me on a somewhat regular basis is idiot drivers but even that is very easy for me to ignore.

 

[thecatch]

I don't know who Kenneth Copeland is, but I do think we Christians need to own the fact that people like Joel Olsteen (just picking him as my go-to example) are the face of our religion to people who don't belong to our group. We know that those folks aren't representative of our local denominations, but we can't really blame others for not knowing that. That's on us IMO.

Yes, the Catholic church I go to is an extremely modest church in a rural area with a very diverse membership (Hispanic, Filipino). And Osteen’s services in the former Rockets arena is 15 minutes from my house.

Funny work story about Osteen. I was recently doing a divorce trial whereby we learned mid-trial during my cross that opposing spouse donated a significant amount of marital funds to Osteen's church (without my client's approval). In perhaps one of my less professional moments, I couldn't help but ask through audible laughter, "wait, you actually donated X amount to Joel Osteen, the megachurch guy with the jets and boats and stuff??" Opposing spouse did not take it kindly (basically reacted like he was involved in this thread) and the judge probably correctly sustained an argumentative objection. Nonetheless, we did prevail on the waste claim.

I mean, that was super unprofessional.

 

[Zow]

But I wonder how much of this sort of thing would apply to non-believers as well. Imagine a world where there is a secular version of church -- once a week, non-believers get together in a little club to talk seriously and self-critically about how to properly live one's life, and they raise their kids in that club and donate to the club and pitch in around the club in their spare time and organize some of their social activities around the club. Over the course of a few decades, that sort of practice would probably make a similar difference for them just like church does for us. I imagine that's sort of what Unitarian churches are going for, but I've never attended one of those. (Not disagreeing with you -- just trying to look at it from the POV of our secular GBs).

What you're basically describing here is how I view, in large part, the FFA. No shtick.

 

[Zow]

I don't know who Kenneth Copeland is, but I do think we Christians need to own the fact that people like Joel Olsteen (just picking him as my go-to example) are the face of our religion to people who don't belong to our group. We know that those folks aren't representative of our local denominations, but we can't really blame others for not knowing that. That's on us IMO.

Yes, the Catholic church I go to is an extremely modest church in a rural area with a very diverse membership (Hispanic, Filipino). And Osteen’s services in the former Rockets arena is 15 minutes from my house.

Funny work story about Osteen. I was recently doing a divorce trial whereby we learned mid-trial during my cross that opposing spouse donated a significant amount of marital funds to Osteen's church (without my client's approval). In perhaps one of my less professional moments, I couldn't help but ask through audible laughter, "wait, you actually donated X amount to Joel Osteen, the megachurch guy with the jets and boats and stuff??" Opposing spouse did not take it kindly (basically reacted like he was involved in this thread) and the judge probably correctly sustained an argumentative objection. Nonetheless, we did prevail on the waste claim.

I mean, that was super unprofessional.

I don't disagree. Just got caught up in the moment and I told the story merely to illustrate how churches like Osteen's come across (and for some self-deprecation).

 

[PIK95]

My families church got more and more into politics. I'm still trying to figure out how this isn't a political thread fwiw. Carry on.

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

Why are you doing this?

What are you afraid of?

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

In the FFA? Yes.

So does being excellent only apply to certain groups or cultures or is it truly all?

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

Hi Harry, just dropping in to say your posts come across adversarial and a touch aggressive like your itching for a fight. I think most here are keeping cool to not let the conversation derail too much. Vade in pace, my friend.

Thanks for the tip! Very helpful, I’ll be certain to keep in mind.

 

[Harry Manback]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked