The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (2 Viewers)

[dutch]

Hi Harry, have you thought about going to a spa and sitting in a sauna, getting a facial and maybe even a full body massage? They can be toots relaxing and can even offer serenity in this angry, cruel world. Not a sermon, just a thought.

 

[Harry Manback]

Now I don’t want to cast aspersions, but there was a lot in that post that felt like very thinly veiled racism. And I’m feeling quite uncomfortable with everyone not only seeming unwilling to address it, but actively trying to stop anyone else from confronting it.

So I’m trying to ask, in the most tactful and respectful way, for clarification in case I’ve misjudged the intent of the comments.

I’m very interested in how seeking understanding or calling out potentially distasteful commentary is “aggressive” or “adversarial”. It sort of feels like you’re circling the proverbial wagons and defending that behavior. That’s just me.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

My families church got more and more into politics. I'm still trying to figure out how this isn't a political thread fwiw. Carry on.

As you can see, one of our members is trying very hard to push us in that direction.

 

[Harry Manback]

My families church got more and more into politics. I'm still trying to figure out how this isn't a political thread fwiw. Carry on.

As you can see, one of our members is trying very hard to push us in that direction.

What is political? I’ve made absolutely nothing political. this is laughable. The fear you have is amusing. Why are you acting this way?

 

[dgreen]

Now I don’t want to cast aspersions, but there was a lot in that post that felt like very thinly veiled racism. And I’m feeling quite uncomfortable with everyone not only seeming unwilling to address it, but actively trying to stop anyone else from confronting it.

So I’m trying to ask, in the most tactful and respectful way, for clarification in case I’ve misjudged the intent of the comments.

I’m very interested in how seeking understanding or calling out potentially distasteful commentary is “aggressive” or “adversarial”. It sort of feels like you’re circling the proverbial wagons and defending that behavior. That’s just me.

I see this post as "seeking understanding" but I did not interpret your other posts in the same light.

 

[Harry Manback]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

 

[Harry Manback]

Frankly I feel like people are happy to let that type of talk go unchecked and there’s tangible fear when it’s questioned. Who or what are you afraid of? Who is going to bring a hammer down here because I questioned if something was maybe a tinge ignorant?

 

[thecatch]

Speaking of dwindling membership, it's always a little sad to have to put one of the remaining FBGs on ignore.

 

[Harry Manback]

My families church got more and more into politics. I'm still trying to figure out how this isn't a political thread fwiw. Carry on.

As you can see, one of our members is trying very hard to push us in that direction.

I'm actually sickened that you'd try to politicize my questions as a way to weaponize the ban on politics to silence any commentary on what was possibly a very thinly veiled racist view. I bet you think that's clever of you, huh?

 

[bigbottom]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

The conversations you are wanting to have are the types of conversations we have been asked to avoid here in the FFA by ownership. We are ignoring that post rather than engaging it because we have respectfully been asked not to engage those sorts of topics. That’s all. We aren’t supporting or excusing that post in any way.

 

[Harry Manback]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

The conversations you are wanting to have are the types of conversations we have been asked to avoid here in the FFA by ownership. We are ignoring that post rather than engaging it because we have respectfully been asked not to engage those sorts of topics. That’s all. We aren’t supporting or excusing that post in any way.

Maybe PM me then because from my understanding politics is banned. I'm not sure how that enables someone to post dogwhistles and thinly veiled racism without question. Is the implication that racist views is somehow inherently political?

 

[bigbottom]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

The conversations you are wanting to have are the types of conversations we have been asked to avoid here in the FFA by ownership. We are ignoring that post rather than engaging it because we have respectfully been asked not to engage those sorts of topics. That’s all. We aren’t supporting or excusing that post in any way.

Maybe PM me then because from my understanding politics is banned. I'm not sure how that enables someone to post dogwhistles and thinly veiled racism without question. Is the implication that racist views is somehow inherently political?

I believe you had asked a pointed question about how climate change was a religion. And debating whether increased diversity from immigration (legal or illegal) is contributing to America’s moral decline. Those are topics of the sort that we have been asked to avoid.

 

[Harry Manback]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

The conversations you are wanting to have are the types of conversations we have been asked to avoid here in the FFA by ownership. We are ignoring that post rather than engaging it because we have respectfully been asked not to engage those sorts of topics. That’s all. We aren’t supporting or excusing that post in any way.

Maybe PM me then because from my understanding politics is banned. I'm not sure how that enables someone to post dogwhistles and thinly veiled racism without question. Is the implication that racist views is somehow inherently political?

I believe you had asked a pointed question about how climate change was a religion. And debating whether increased diversity from immigration (legal or illegal) is contributing to America’s moral decline. Those are topics of the sort that we have been asked to avoid.

FIrstly climate change was brought up by the person I'm questioning. They mentioned "false religions (climate change, political)". I took that to mean people are treating poltiics as a religion, which I ignored, and I was truly curious how climate change is lumped into "false religions". Why is that not a fair question? Why not attack the OP for bringing it up? Seems a bit unfair, no?

Secondly, who mentioned immigration? I didn't. Neither did the person I was questioning. Are you under the impression that a "more diverse culture" is soley a product of immigration? And not a product of expanding social means and exposure to differnet cultural groups and subgroups? Plenty of diversity is represented by groups that have been in this country for generations.

It feels disingenous that you are trying to make this a poltical post, and the goal is to simply silence conversation under the guise of "following site rules" when the spirit of my post has literally nothing to do with poltiics or immigration or anything else taboo.

 

[bigbottom]

Just so we’re clear you think it’s best to ignore anything distasteful that has been said. Unless I say things YOU find distasteful then fire away?

The conversations you are wanting to have are the types of conversations we have been asked to avoid here in the FFA by ownership. We are ignoring that post rather than engaging it because we have respectfully been asked not to engage those sorts of topics. That’s all. We aren’t supporting or excusing that post in any way.

Maybe PM me then because from my understanding politics is banned. I'm not sure how that enables someone to post dogwhistles and thinly veiled racism without question. Is the implication that racist views is somehow inherently political?

I believe you had asked a pointed question about how climate change was a religion. And debating whether increased diversity from immigration (legal or illegal) is contributing to America’s moral decline. Those are topics of the sort that we have been asked to avoid.

FIrstly climate change was brought up by the person I'm questioning. They mentioned "false religions (climate change, political)". I took that to mean people are treating poltiics as a religion, which I ignored, and I was truly curious how climate change is lumped into "false religions". Why is that not a fair question? Why not attack the OP for bringing it up? Seems a bit unfair, no?

Secondly, who mentioned immigration? I didn't. Neither did the person I was questioning. Are you under the impression that a "more diverse culture" is soley a product of immigration? And not a product of expanding social means and exposure to differnet cultural groups and subgroups? Plenty of diversity is represented by groups that have been in this country for generations.

It feels disingenous that you are trying to make this a poltical post, and the goal is to simply silence conversation under the guise of "following site rules" when the spirit of my post has literally nothing to do with poltiics or immigration or anything else taboo.

Ah okay. You want to argue. I will follow my own advice and ignore your posts as I ignored the post you are taking issue with. This is not meant to be an attack on you. But in my opinion, what you are trying to do in this thread is what we’ve been asked not to do. Please feel free to disagree.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Ah okay. You want to argue. I will follow my own advice and ignore your posts as I ignored the post you are taking issue with. This is not meant to be an attack on you. But in my opinion, what you are trying to do in this thread is what we’ve been asked not to do. Please feel free to disagree.

You are feeding the troll, good sir.

 

[Harry Manback]

Ah okay. You want to argue. I will follow my own advice and ignore your posts as I ignored the post you are taking issue with. This is not meant to be an attack on you. But in my opinion, what you are trying to do in this thread is what we’ve been asked not to do. Please feel free to disagree.

You are feeding the troll, good sir.

I'm not trolling at all. Believe it if you want, I could not care less about the opinions of people who are happy to turn a blind eye to that sort of talk.

It's been made abundently clear to me that making a racist post is perfectly acceptable, calling it out is not. Noted.

 

[bigbottom]

Ah okay. You want to argue. I will follow my own advice and ignore your posts as I ignored the post you are taking issue with. This is not meant to be an attack on you. But in my opinion, what you are trying to do in this thread is what we’ve been asked not to do. Please feel free to disagree.

You are feeding the troll, good sir.

I'm not trolling at all. Believe it if you want, I could not care less about the opinions of people who are happy to turn a blind eye to that sort of talk.

It's been made abundently clear to me that making a racist post is perfectly acceptable, calling it out is not. Noted.

Since you have chosen to start sending me private messages, I will post publicly what I just wrote to you (I won’t post what you wrote to me as that is your prerogative, but I will say that you losing respect for me is something I am okay with). I will not be responding to you any further on this matter as it is derailing the thread and harshing my calm.


You think debating climate change or the morality of different cultures are what Joe wants to be debated in the FFA? I can assure you they are not. The original poster could have been reported and/or banned for what he said. Most of us chose to ignore it and not take the bait. If you want to report him, you should do so. That’s what the report button is for. But when my friend Joe asks me respectfully not to promote those kind of debates, I do him the courtesy of following his lead.

And as a person of color, I do feel very comfortable in the FFA. I will say, however, that getting DMs from someone trying to argue with me privately about something I stated clearly that I wasn’t going to argue about doesn’t feel great.

 

[Harry Manback]

Ah okay. You want to argue. I will follow my own advice and ignore your posts as I ignored the post you are taking issue with. This is not meant to be an attack on you. But in my opinion, what you are trying to do in this thread is what we’ve been asked not to do. Please feel free to disagree.

You are feeding the troll, good sir.

I'm not trolling at all. Believe it if you want, I could not care less about the opinions of people who are happy to turn a blind eye to that sort of talk.

It's been made abundently clear to me that making a racist post is perfectly acceptable, calling it out is not. Noted.

Since you have chosen to start sending me private messages, I will post publicly what I just wrote to you (I won’t post what you wrote to me as that is your prerogative, but I will say that you losing respect for me is something I am okay with). I will not be responding to you any further on this matter as it is derailing the thread and harshing my calm.


You think debating climate change or the morality of different cultures are what Joe wants to be debated in the FFA? I can assure you they are not. The original poster could have been reported and/or banned for what he said. Most of us chose to ignore it and not take the bait. If you want to report him, you should do so. That’s what the report button is for. But when my friend Joe asks me respectfully not to promote those kind of debates, I do him the courtesy of following his lead.

And as a person of color, I do feel very comfortable in the FFA. I will say, however, that getting DMs from someone trying to argue with me privately about something I stated clearly that I wasn’t going to argue about doesn’t feel great.

Thanks for bringing this up here, so very cool of you.

Since you are hellbent on misusing or misunderstanding the word "argument" I'll post my response too.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? I'm not trying to debate climate change. The person I was responding to posited climate change was a false religion. That's a truly mystifying take. I'm not trying to argue either, which again you are deadset on insisting I am trying to do. Good for you feeling comfortable there. I had a lot of respect for you prior to this. Oh well.

I don't really care about you or your opinions of me, it's nice to see you enjoy victimizing yourself publicly though. Your refusal to understand what an argument is, while amusing, isn't my problem. I wasn't arguing, I was trying to understand why you thought I was trying to "debate climate change" which is an asinine and intentionally misleading post. I probably should've just called you out directly but I figured you'd have some pride you wanted to spare, guess you just wanted the attention publicly and to play a victim.

 

[dutch]

Please God, make it end. Amen.

 

[dgreen]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Here's some data from Barna from 2011 about why young Christians leave church. I'm not sure if they updated data, especially post-pandemic.

 

[General Malaise]

As somebody who admires and respects both you fellas, let's maybe just take the temperature down a bit and try to remember that generally speaking, we're all friends here. Even if one of you wears sweatervests.

 

[dgreen]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Here's some data from Barna from 2011 about why young Christians leave church. I'm not sure if they updated data, especially post-pandemic.

Some more recent data about attendance through the pandemic.

 

[Harry Manback]

As somebody who admires and respects both you fellas, let's maybe just take the temperature down a bit and try to remember that generally speaking, we're all friends here. Even if one of you wears sweatervests.

I'm done, multiple people have made it very clear what is and isn't acceptable to post. And what is and isn't being excellent. I PMed Bigbottom with a genuine attempt to understand his post and not a single part of it was argumentative. He chose to mischaracterize my message and publicize this in a presumed attempt to embarrass me, also pretty excellent.

 

[bigbottom]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Here's some data from Barna from 2011 about why young Christians leave church. I'm not sure if they updated data, especially post-pandemic.

It’s a fascinating survey, because the masses I attend rarely touch on any of those issues. The sermons aren’t anti-science nor do they demonize everything outside the church. And they are not unfriendly to doubters. This seems to be less about church and church leadership, and perhaps more about certain vocal churchgoers who are less accepting and loving. And that is really unfortunate. But while I am not a regular churchgoer, when I do go to mass, it is always seems super welcoming and friendly. At least at my church.

Now the boring part, that I can see for lots of folks.

 

[dgreen]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Here's some data from Barna from 2011 about why young Christians leave church. I'm not sure if they updated data, especially post-pandemic.

It’s a fascinating survey, because the masses I attend rarely touch on any of those issues. The sermons aren’t anti-science nor do they demonize everything outside the church. And they are not unfriendly to doubters. This seems to be less about church and church leadership, and perhaps more about certain vocal churchgoers who are less accepting and loving. And that is really unfortunate. But while I am not a regular churchgoer, when I do go to mass, it is always seems super welcoming and friendly.

Now the boring part, that I can see for lots of folks.

I think American churches are very diverse in these areas. We see in FFA threads a wide variety of church experiences. I haven't witnessed most of this in my congregation, but I have heard from quite a few people who have.

 

[bigbottom]

I don’t have any data or empirical evidence to back it up, but I would speculate that church attendance is declining for a few reasons:

1) A shift from the community to the individual. I would speculate that not only is church attendance down, but so to is membership in clubs, affiliation groups, and other social organizations. Less time is spent engaged in person in a larger community of individuals with similar interests. People are now more focused on individual pursuits or those within a small group of friends.

2) Increased mobility with each passing generation. Fewer and fewer people live in the communities where they were raised. So church membership across generations of a family is largely a thing of the past. Move to a new city for a job? A church will be filled with strangers, not with families you have known for decades/generations.

3) Decreasing attention span across the general public and increasing options for consumption. Church services can be boring. And with all the media that is instantly available at one’s fingertips, there are simply more interesting ways to spend a Sunday morning. I’d also bet that the percentage of people regularly reading long novels is down. Heck, people complain about movies that are too long.

All of the above is mostly babble off the top of my head and may very well be off the mark.

Here's some data from Barna from 2011 about why young Christians leave church. I'm not sure if they updated data, especially post-pandemic.

It’s a fascinating survey, because the masses I attend rarely touch on any of those issues. The sermons aren’t anti-science nor do they demonize everything outside the church. And they are not unfriendly to doubters. This seems to be less about church and church leadership, and perhaps more about certain vocal churchgoers who are less accepting and loving. And that is really unfortunate. But while I am not a regular churchgoer, when I do go to mass, it is always seems super welcoming and friendly.

Now the boring part, that I can see for lots of folks.

I think American churches are very diverse in these areas. We see in FFA threads a wide variety of church experiences. I haven't witnessed most of this in my congregation, but I have heard from quite a few people who have.

Yes, that is a fair take. I can only speak to my own experiences which may or may not be representative.

 

[Zow]

Please God, make it end. Amen.

I really hope G/god exists just so this prayer can be answered. Oh, and maybe to stop crimes against children. That'd be nice, too.

 

[AAABatteries]

Wait, bb is black?!?

This changes everything nothing!

 

[Zow]

Wait, bb is black?!?

This changes everything nothing!

Why do you think he can sing so well?

 

[bigbottom]

Interestingly, I never attended church growing up. I was a military brat and moved every two years so never had a hometown much less a hometown church. And my parents were never church attenders (my mother was raised by a Buddhist father).

It wasn’t until my high school years in Southern California that I found an incredibly accepting youth group at a modern (at the time) church. Rather than judgment, there was love and acceptance. We had a lot of kids in our youth group struggling with addiction. And more than a few struggling with their sexuality. And they were welcomed with open arms. They were loved and supported rather than judged. And that really framed my perspective on how church can be such a positive force.

One of my best friends from that church went on to play drums for a successful Christian band in the early 90s and their song Some Love does a great job of tackling the judgment issue head on.

 

[Zow]

Yes, that is a fair take. I can only speak to my own experiences which may or may not be representative.

FWIW, this matches my experiences across hundreds to thousands of catholic church services and several dozen church services I attended in the Lutheran or Anglican churches.

As I think about it, I can only think of two pretty distinct times it seemed like the church pushed politics:

1. My Catholic school growing up pushed pretty hard on us (both in class and at church) that homosexuality was a serious sin. In other words, and relatively-speaking, this particular dogma/sin was addressed distinctly more than some other mortal sins.
2. I recall one of our priests during his homily telling the congregation that they were obligated as Catholics to vote for Bill Clinton over George Bush, despite Clinton being pro-choice, on the basis that Clinton's social welfare programs were much more aligned with Catholic values. The priest did it pretty tactfully and, IIRC, even acknowledged that the church tries to stay out of politics but he felt compelled to say something. Kid me found it odd but not inappropriate.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

As I said in the answer to the private message, the best answer there is to take that to a private message with the poster. Please do that. Thank you.

 

[Joe Bryant]

1. They are very rarely "empty most of the week".
2. The vast majority already serve the community in multiple ways.
3. All non-profits don't pay taxes, not just churches.
4. What is stopping you or anyone else from utilizing the massive amounts of empty buildings in most cities to do these things?

This has been my experience as well.

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

As I said in the answer to the private message, the best answer there is to take that to a private message with the poster. Please do that. Thank you.

Fair enough, any overt racism will be handled quietly behind closed doors. Got it.

 

[Joe Bryant]

So this became another thread for internet atheists to bash religion. Great. You guys don’t have enough of those and you should be proud.

Rock this is an interesting post since you don’t seem to have the same reaction about the very pro-religion posts in this thread.

The exact same thing you are saying here can be said about how atheists feel every day from the religious.

I think that's a good point is it works both ways. Nobody feels good about being bashed. And it rarely if ever leads to anything good except for the side doing the bashing to feel superior for a second or two.

Always better for both sides to seek understanding in my opinion.

They may still disagree and that may well be fine. But it's a better way to discuss I think.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

As I said in the answer to the private message, the best answer there is to take that to a private message with the poster. Please do that. Thank you.

Fair enough, and overt racism will be handled quietly behind closed doors. Got it.

Nope. And I'm sorry you'd think that of us after as long as you've been on the board. But that's life.

We're saying if you are "more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others." please ask the person offline to clarify. We've proven we're not good at those discussions here. I truly wish that was not the case.

I'll ask the moderators to try and keep this back on track.

 

[Harry Manback]

I'm more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others.

Do you think that will be a productive conversation? It won’t.

So you think it's best to let that type of talk slide? Just ignore the dogwhistles and pretend it isn't happening?

As I said in the answer to the private message, the best answer there is to take that to a private message with the poster. Please do that. Thank you.

Fair enough, and overt racism will be handled quietly behind closed doors. Got it.

Nope. And I'm sorry you'd think that of us after as long as you've been on the board. But that's life.

We're saying if you are "more curious about the idea that "Climate Change" is a religion and that there are certain cultures that are inherently less moral than others." please ask the person offline to clarify. We've proven we're not good at those discussions here. I truly wish that was not the case.

I'll ask the moderators to try and keep this back on track.

I'll do that. But apparently that runs the risk of them taking the private message back here and broadcasting it. It also leaves up the original post unquestioned and the impression that there is nothing wrong with it. But this is your board, if that's how you feel I have no choice but to respect htat if i wish to stick around. I too wish that was not the case.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yes, that is a fair take. I can only speak to my own experiences which may or may not be representative.

FWIW, this matches my experiences across hundreds to thousands of catholic church services and several dozen church services I attended in the Lutheran or Anglican churches.

As I think about it, I can only think of two pretty distinct times it seemed like the church pushed politics:

1. My Catholic school growing up pushed pretty hard on us (both in class and at church) that homosexuality was a serious sin. In other words, and relatively-speaking, this particular dogma/sin was addressed distinctly more than some other mortal sins.
2. I recall one of our priests during his homily telling the congregation that they were obligated as Catholics to vote for Bill Clinton over George Bush, despite Clinton being pro-choice, on the basis that Clinton's social welfare programs were much more aligned with Catholic values. The priest did it pretty tactfully and, IIRC, even acknowledged that the church tries to stay out of politics but he felt compelled to say something. Kid me found it odd but not inappropriate.

I do think it's an interesting question about religion and politics. In my experience, churches are much better off in staying neutral there.

 

[HomerSimpson]

Please God, make it end. Amen.

I really hope G/god exists just so this prayer can be answered. Oh, and maybe to stop crimes against children. That'd be nice, too.

Yeah, God kinda sent his son 2,000+ years ago. Then thought "yep, all is good!" and has been snoozing ever since.

 

[Gatorade]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

 

[Scoresman]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

Religious instruction is not required to know how to dress. Why are we judging people's outfits at a Walmart?

 

[dgreen]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

 

[Gatorade]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

So religion is a requirement for someone to be moral? Or specifically attending church?

Do you think you cannot be a moral person without religion? What does diversity have to do with morals? Are some cultures inherently less moral than others? How is climate change a religion? Which cultures were destroyed by moral decline?

I did not say being religious is a requirement to being moral, but it sure helps .
I did not say any cultures were less moral, just that they have different opinions of morality when compared what used to be acceptable in the US . In Europe being topless at a beach is more acceptable than the US. In the middle east some women are covered from head to toe, while the men wear shorts and sandals.
These climate activities that throw soup on great works of art sure seem like religious fanatics to me .
Rome was basically destroyed by their immorality.

 

[djmich]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

It’s hard not to think that a stronger religious upbringing wouldn’t impact that. Heck, with certain religions women can’t have their faces unconverted still. Is that a good thing or bad thing…will hold that question but I think religion does have an impact.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

 

[Gatorade]

I voted bad. The decline in religious belief and/or participation has gone hand in hand with the decline in moral values in this country. Many factors are involved, including church scandals, removal of prayer in school, the Internet, idolization (entertainment, sports celebrities) , false religions (climate change, political), a more diverse culture and just plain apathy. Many great cultures have been destroyed by similar moral decline. Hopefully, the USA will realize this before it is too late .

Explain this please

Decline in moral values. Not hard to see if you ever watch a TV, see the way people dress, listen to politicians talk, listen to music or see what is acceptable in our society now that would have gotten you thrown in jail in the past. People just show a lack of respect for their fellow man when there is no accountability to anyone but yourself.
Diverse culture. As more and more people come here from different cultures, they each bring their own values and ideas of what is acceptable in society.

Genuinely curious - is all that you describe what you see in person and is part of your daily interactions or what you see on TV or the internet? I frequently feel like I live in a different world than most people because I'd say 95%+ of my personal interactions with people are either neutral or positive - many very positive. Probably the worst thing that happens to me on a somewhat regular basis is idiot drivers but even that is very easy for me to ignore.

Not a part of daily interactions but a lot of that is because I am more careful about where I go and what I do than I used to be. With TV and Internet, I can change the channel or not read a story. As an example, Just because I don't see child trafficking, does not mean it does not happen.

 

[dgreen]

is now a bad time to ask about the way people dressing and what they’d have been thrown in jail for back in the day? That one has me shuked

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

I've definitely been pretty surprised at how many young girls dress at HS football games. I'm not sure if they hide their outfit when they leave the house or if the parents just don't care. I guess based on the types of pictures many teens will openly post on social media, I'd conclude some parents don't care. I'm not sure I see it as having to do with religion or some larger national moral decline, but I think there's definitely been a change in attitudes towards this stuff.

There's a very simple explanation for why young women started dressing very immodestly about 10 years ago, and it has to do with the fact that colleges now skew about 60-40 female. That's all it is.

I assume you're saying the college skew has college women dressing immodestly as a way to compete for the attraction of the lower number of men. Is that right? But I'm talking about HS girls (heck, even some of the junior high girls who show up to HS football games are pretty immodest). Does this 60/40 college skew impact how HS girls dress? Maybe they see, and look up to, college girls and imitate that? Is that the argument?

 

[SWC]

i lost my religion back in 84 but it ends up it had just slid behind some socks in my top drawer so now i am all set take that to the bank brochachos

 

[the moops]

I did not say being religious is a requirement to being moral, but it sure helps

How are you so sure?

 

[the moops]

People used to dress more modest. I was walking into Walmart the other day and out comes this young lady in her bikini. Several others inside were wearing shear cover-ups over bathing suits. You may not agree, but to me it is because of a lack of morals that this is acceptable. Maybe because of a lack of religious instruction. But people see this now everywhere in entertainment and it somehow is acceptable when it did not use to be. People used to be thrown in jail for public nudity. I think that rarely happens today.

You can wear a bikini and still have morals.