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They're both drowning, you can save only one... (1 Viewer)

If they were both drowning & you could save only one would you save your dog or a stranger (huma

  • I'd save my dog

    Votes: 97 49.2%
  • I'd save the stranger

    Votes: 100 50.8%

  • Total voters
    197
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
Why isn't it?
Because a dog has as much right to live as a human. And you still haven't answered the question.
as much right to live = more right to live than human? :confused:So, Does that mean it just comes down to personal preference?... to answer your question, a dog can't provide for a family the way the stranger may be able to. Instead of looking for the bad in everyone, maybe you should look for the good.
The dog can provide for a dog family. Why is the dog's family less important than a human's family?
I hope you are fishing here. At least explain to me why you think they are equally important or why you think the dog family is more important.
 
So you are going to criticize me based on a completely ridiculous fictitious scenario? How could you possibly know that the dog "knows" where the kids are? The answer is that you couldn't.
You're the one that made the categorical statement.
 
How many times has this defense come up in this thread? "Those saying they would save the dog say that, but I don't think they really MEAN it."
It's not a defense--I'm just pointing out what I consider an inconsistency. You and Smoo asked why human lives were different from dog lives. I replied that the two of you likely treat human and animal lives differently from each other every day. You step on bugs. You eat cows and chickens. Why do you think it's OK to kill and eat a cow but not a human?
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
I've been asking the same thing (also with no response). I'll reiterate for those that wandered in in the middle (coughCrossEyedcough). Why are human beings so much better than dogs? Who has decided that, and why did they get to make that decision? What if the dog is really God, and it just looks like a dog? What if dogs are really supposed to be higher forms of life, but somebody long ago decided that they are here to serve us and they have just gone along with it. What if they are really smarter than we think they are, and they are running everything. Is it too preposterous to think that maybe you don't know everything?
You're saying that, but I don't believe that's how you really feel. Do you think people should go to jail for killing other humans? Do you think they should go to jail if they step on a bug?
How many times has this defense come up in this thread? "Those saying they would save the dog say that, but I don't think they really MEAN it."
I think they mean it. That's why it's disturbing to so many folks.Also, like I mentioned earlier, the people who vote to indicate they would save the dog don't necessarily think that's the morally right thing to do, just that it's what they would do. I didn't have a comment to add until someone said it was morally acceptable to save the dog and let the stranger die.
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
I've been asking the same thing (also with no response). I'll reiterate for those that wandered in in the middle (coughCrossEyedcough). Why are human beings so much better than dogs? Who has decided that, and why did they get to make that decision? What if the dog is really God, and it just looks like a dog? What if dogs are really supposed to be higher forms of life, but somebody long ago decided that they are here to serve us and they have just gone along with it. What if they are really smarter than we think they are, and they are running everything. Is it too preposterous to think that maybe you don't know everything?
I'll refer you to Genesis chapter one. But since there is a good chance that you believe that we evolved from dogs, I guess that probably won't matter to you.
Time until the dog folks pounce on this one...5...4...3...2...
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
I've been asking the same thing (also with no response). I'll reiterate for those that wandered in in the middle (coughCrossEyedcough). Why are human beings so much better than dogs? Who has decided that, and why did they get to make that decision? What if the dog is really God, and it just looks like a dog? What if dogs are really supposed to be higher forms of life, but somebody long ago decided that they are here to serve us and they have just gone along with it. What if they are really smarter than we think they are, and they are running everything. Is it too preposterous to think that maybe you don't know everything?
Is it too preposterous to think that you might not? Why do you feel the need to criticize everyone who disagrees with you? Just because they disagree with you doesn't mean they think they know everything. It just means that in this one instance they think they're right and you're wrong.The dog isn't really god and isn't really running things. It's not really more intelligent than people.People really are more important than dogs.
You are moving towards "Bubba" or "Lake City Gar" territory as most ridiculous poster ever. I'm not the one in this thread repeatedly saying "I'm right. You're wrong. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong and that's that." Then, you have been asked to back up your position for about 5 pages now, and all you say is "I'm right. I know I'm right, and that's that."
The dog isn't really god and isn't really running things. It's not really more intelligent than people.People really are more important than dogs.
How do you know? What gives you the right to make that decision? Will you ever answer the question? [magic8ball]Signs point to No.[/magic8ball]
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
Why isn't it?
Because a dog has as much right to live as a human. And you still haven't answered the question.
as much right to live = more right to live than human? :confused:So, Does that mean it just comes down to personal preference?... to answer your question, a dog can't provide for a family the way the stranger may be able to. Instead of looking for the bad in everyone, maybe you should look for the good.
The dog can provide for a dog family. Why is the dog's family less important than a human's family?
I hope you are fishing here. At least explain to me why you think they are equally important or why you think the dog family is more important.
Why is the human family more important?
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
Why isn't it?
Because a dog has as much right to live as a human. And you still haven't answered the question.
as much right to live = more right to live than human? :confused:So, Does that mean it just comes down to personal preference?... to answer your question, a dog can't provide for a family the way the stranger may be able to. Instead of looking for the bad in everyone, maybe you should look for the good.
The dog can provide for a dog family. Why is the dog's family less important than a human's family?
I hope you are fishing here. At least explain to me why you think they are equally important or why you think the dog family is more important.
Why is the human family more important?
because they take care of the dog family in most cases.
 
How many times has this defense come up in this thread? "Those saying they would save the dog say that, but I don't think they really MEAN it."
It's not a defense--I'm just pointing out what I consider an inconsistency. You and Smoo asked why human lives were different from dog lives. I replied that the two of you likely treat human and animal lives differently from each other every day. You step on bugs. You eat cows and chickens. Why do you think it's OK to kill and eat a cow but not a human?
Not to mention the poor plants that they kill and eat. Why is a plant life less valuable than an animal life?
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
I've been asking the same thing (also with no response). I'll reiterate for those that wandered in in the middle (coughCrossEyedcough). Why are human beings so much better than dogs? Who has decided that, and why did they get to make that decision? What if the dog is really God, and it just looks like a dog? What if dogs are really supposed to be higher forms of life, but somebody long ago decided that they are here to serve us and they have just gone along with it. What if they are really smarter than we think they are, and they are running everything. Is it too preposterous to think that maybe you don't know everything?
I'll refer you to Genesis chapter one. But since there is a good chance that you believe that we evolved from dogs, I guess that probably won't matter to you.
Time until the dog folks pounce on this one...5...4...3...2...
No need to pounce. Cross-Eyed's opinion became impotent as soon as he needed some fictional text and ancient superstition to back it up.
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
I've been asking the same thing (also with no response). I'll reiterate for those that wandered in in the middle (coughCrossEyedcough). Why are human beings so much better than dogs? Who has decided that, and why did they get to make that decision? What if the dog is really God, and it just looks like a dog? What if dogs are really supposed to be higher forms of life, but somebody long ago decided that they are here to serve us and they have just gone along with it. What if they are really smarter than we think they are, and they are running everything. Is it too preposterous to think that maybe you don't know everything?
I'll refer you to Genesis chapter one. But since there is a good chance that you believe that we evolved from dogs, I guess that probably won't matter to you.
Hmmmm. A book written by . . . . . . . . (wait for it) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . A MAN!!!!!!!!!
 
Then you criticize me for being too proud and stubborn to admit that I'm wrong based purely on the fact that you disagree with me.
At least you finally admitted you're wrong.Get thicker skin. I'm not calling you an imbecile in a hatred way (remember, I'm the guy who got your back when idiots wouldn't pray for you.) I'm saying it in a 'debating on the internet' kind of way.The point you're missing here is I'm not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is I do not believe that people should judge others for their decision. What you feel is right may not apply to everyone else using a broad paintbrush to paint black and white. That's all I'm getting at.
That's not how it came across. Calling someone an imbecile is a lot more personal than saying that you think their ideas are wrong. The problem with what you are saying is the moral relativism. There really are things that are always right and always wrong. I'm not saying that there aren't gray areas in life. But this isn't one of them. God created human beings in His image and gave us dominion over all other life on earth. Not so we can abuse it, but we do have a higher standing, so to speak.Human life is more valuable than animal life. That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
 
How many times has this defense come up in this thread? "Those saying they would save the dog say that, but I don't think they really MEAN it."
It's not a defense--I'm just pointing out what I consider an inconsistency. You and Smoo asked why human lives were different from dog lives. I replied that the two of you likely treat human and animal lives differently from each other every day. You step on bugs. You eat cows and chickens. Why do you think it's OK to kill and eat a cow but not a human?
Not to mention the poor plants that they kill and eat. Why is a plant life less valuable than an animal life?
Plants are here to serve us. I know this. Don't question it. I'm right, and you're wrong.
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
Why isn't it?
Because a dog has as much right to live as a human. And you still haven't answered the question.
as much right to live = more right to live than human? :confused:So, Does that mean it just comes down to personal preference?... to answer your question, a dog can't provide for a family the way the stranger may be able to. Instead of looking for the bad in everyone, maybe you should look for the good.
The dog can provide for a dog family. Why is the dog's family less important than a human's family?
I hope you are fishing here. At least explain to me why you think they are equally important or why you think the dog family is more important.
Why is the human family more important?
because they take care of the dog family in most cases.
That gives them more right to live? A parent take care of a child. Do parents have greater right to live than children?
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life. That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
 
The fact is, they ARE NOT human.
This is what I've been asking and nobody will answer. Why is humanity vs caninity an issue?
Why isn't it?
Because a dog has as much right to live as a human. And you still haven't answered the question.
as much right to live = more right to live than human? :confused:So, Does that mean it just comes down to personal preference?... to answer your question, a dog can't provide for a family the way the stranger may be able to. Instead of looking for the bad in everyone, maybe you should look for the good.
The dog can provide for a dog family. Why is the dog's family less important than a human's family?
I hope you are fishing here. At least explain to me why you think they are equally important or why you think the dog family is more important.
Why is the human family more important?
because they take care of the dog family in most cases.
That gives them more right to live? A parent take care of a child. Do parents have greater right to live than children?
You just asked why they were more important. Parent to child is not equal to human to dog imo.
 
You are moving towards "Bubba" or "Lake City Gar" territory as most ridiculous poster ever. I'm not the one in this thread repeatedly saying "I'm right. You're wrong. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong and that's that." Then, you have been asked to back up your position for about 5 pages now, and all you say is "I'm right. I know I'm right, and that's that."

The dog isn't really god and isn't really running things. It's not really more intelligent than people.People really are more important than dogs.
How do you know? What gives you the right to make that decision? Will you ever answer the question? [magic8ball]Signs point to No.[/magic8ball]
I think you're exaggerating a bit. Why haven't you addressed anyone elses posts about the value of dogs vs. other animals? What about plants? They're alive too. Do you kill plants and eat them? Why is that OK? What if you had a choice between saving a plant and a stranger? Would it be OK to save the plant too? What about a cockroach?What gives you the right to judge me? You seem to feel some imperative to teach me the error of my ways. Why is that? Do you want me to be a better person? If that's it, I thank you for that. Do you want to just feel better about your own incorrect moral position on the matter of the relative value of dogs and people? If that's it, sorry I'm not giving you reasons to try to shoot down. It's making you fixate a bit, seems to me. I hope I'm not ruining your day...
 
You want some bacon?

No, man, I don't eat pork.

Are you Jewish?

No, I ain't Jewish, i just don't dig on swine, that's all.

Why not?

Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.

But bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good...

Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf***ers. Pigs sleep and root in ####, that's a filthy animal. I don't eat nothin' that ain't got sense enough to disregard its own feces.

How about a dog? A dog eats its own feces

I don't eat dog either

Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?

I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy, but it's definately dirty. But, dogs got personality, personality goes a long way.

So by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filty animal. Is that true?

We' have to be talkin' 'bout one charmin' motherf***in' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

 
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Human life is more valuable than animal life. That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
:rotflmao:Ooooooo-tay!
I could laugh at the fact that your beliefs are 180 degrees away from mine too. But to me it's not funny, it's just sad.
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life. That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
 
Why haven't you addressed anyone elses posts about the value of dogs vs. other animals? What about plants? They're alive too. Do you kill plants and eat them? Why is that OK? What if you had a choice between saving a plant and a stranger? Would it be OK to save the plant too? What about a cockroach?
Interestingly, as much as Grackle complains about others answering his questions, he never responds to this.
 
Then you criticize me for being too proud and stubborn to admit that I'm wrong based purely on the fact that you disagree with me.
At least you finally admitted you're wrong.Get thicker skin. I'm not calling you an imbecile in a hatred way (remember, I'm the guy who got your back when idiots wouldn't pray for you.) I'm saying it in a 'debating on the internet' kind of way.The point you're missing here is I'm not saying you're wrong. What I'm saying is I do not believe that people should judge others for their decision. What you feel is right may not apply to everyone else using a broad paintbrush to paint black and white. That's all I'm getting at.
That's not how it came across. Calling someone an imbecile is a lot more personal than saying that you think their ideas are wrong. The problem with what you are saying is the moral relativism. There really are things that are always right and always wrong. I'm not saying that there aren't gray areas in life. But this isn't one of them. God created human beings in His image and gave us dominion over all other life on earth. Not so we can abuse it, but we do have a higher standing, so to speak.Human life is more valuable than animal life. That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong. But for someone who doesn't believe the same things and have the same beliefs as you, they should not be condemned. My point from the beginning, as stated many times throughout this thread, is that there is no correct answer for everyone. We live in a world with many different belief structures.Even if 'most' people believe it, that does not make it 'solubly absolute'.
 
You just asked why they were more important. Parent to child is not equal to human to dog imo.
It is if 'caring for' is the criterion in question, whichis what you gave. If they're not different, please give a separate criterion that applies to parent/child but does not apply to human/dog.Wait, I'll do it for you. Higher brain functions? Cerebrum? Speech? Technology? If it's one of those, why does that alter a species' right to live?

(And yes, fatguy, I'm still pondering your question. It was a good question.)

 
You are moving towards "Bubba" or "Lake City Gar" territory as most ridiculous poster ever. I'm not the one in this thread repeatedly saying "I'm right. You're wrong. If you don't agree with me, you're wrong and that's that." Then, you have been asked to back up your position for about 5 pages now, and all you say is "I'm right. I know I'm right, and that's that."

The dog isn't really god and isn't really running things. It's not really more intelligent than people.People really are more important than dogs.
How do you know? What gives you the right to make that decision? Will you ever answer the question? [magic8ball]Signs point to No.[/magic8ball]
I think you're exaggerating a bit. Why haven't you addressed anyone elses posts about the value of dogs vs. other animals? What about plants? They're alive too. Do you kill plants and eat them? Why is that OK? What if you had a choice between saving a plant and a stranger? Would it be OK to save the plant too? What about a cockroach?What gives you the right to judge me? You seem to feel some imperative to teach me the error of my ways. Why is that? Do you want me to be a better person? If that's it, I thank you for that. Do you want to just feel better about your own incorrect moral position on the matter of the relative value of dogs and people? If that's it, sorry I'm not giving you reasons to try to shoot down. It's making you fixate a bit, seems to me. I hope I'm not ruining your day...
No. actually this is MAKING my day. :thumbup:And to answer your previous questions:1) I'm not the one proclaiming outrage at those that are "morally wrong" for thinking in a way that I don't agree with. I'm also not proclaiming that I know what's right and wrong, and that I have the right to decide as such, and to let those that are wrong know that they are wrong (but not necessarily why they are wrong with any substantive facts).2) I'm not judging you at all. Not once in this thread have I said that you were wrong for what you believed (and then not backed up why I thought so). You on the other hand . . . . . . (do I really need to quote all your posts again?)
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life.  That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
You're the one making representations on the respective values that God places on humans versus animals.And how do you square your categorical statements on this thread with your tacit approval of the death penalty?
 
You just asked why they were more important. Parent to child is not equal to human to dog imo.
It is if 'caring for' is the criterion in question, whichis what you gave. If they're not different, please give a separate criterion that applies to parent/child but does not apply to human/dog.Wait, I'll do it for you. Higher brain functions? Cerebrum? Speech? Technology? If it's one of those, why does that alter a species' right to live?

(And yes, fatguy, I'm still pondering your question. It was a good question.)
human didn't birth the dog. You are letting me down, Smoo.
 
Why haven't you addressed anyone elses posts about the value of dogs vs. other animals? What about plants? They're alive too. Do you kill plants and eat them? Why is that OK? What if you had a choice between saving a plant and a stranger? Would it be OK to save the plant too? What about a cockroach?
Interestingly, as much as Grackle complains about others answering his questions, he never responds to this.
see aboveTIA
1) I'm not the one proclaiming outrage at those that are "morally wrong" for thinking in a way that I don't agree with. I'm also not proclaiming that I know what's right and wrong, and that I have the right to decide as such, and to let those that are wrong know that they are wrong (but not necessarily why they are wrong with any substantive facts).
 
I'm not the one proclaiming outrage at those that are "morally wrong" for thinking in a way that I don't agree with. I'm also not proclaiming that I know what's right and wrong
Although I never accused you of such a thing, I will point out that you questioned why one would value a human over a dog. My point was that I bet you do. That in itself is interesting evidence.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmm........Not long ago, I was giving a lecture on animal rights at a local college. I was arguing that the use of animals in biomedical research could not be justified. During the question and answer period, one of the students asked, "If you were forced to choose between a stranger and a dog, which would you choose?" Now, if I had a nickel for every time I was asked that over the years, I could probably afford to have retired years ago.I am sure that the student who asked the question on this particular occasion was in earnest, but I am sure that virtually everyone else who has ever asked me that question also asked it seriously and sincerely. The problem is that this question can do little to help us to understand the issues involved in the human/animal relationship.Let's think about it for a second.First of all, the choice is illusory in a very practical sense. It is very difficult--if not impossible--to show any clear causal link between the use of animals in research and finding cures for human diseases. There is considerable and legitimate controversy about the precise role that animals have played in this respect. To suggest that we are generally confronted with the real choice of a dog's life or a stranger's life is simply not accurate.But let's assume that the hypothetical is not as ridiculous as it is in fact. Let us assume just for argument that we are confronted with a real choice of which life to save--a stranger's or a dog's life. For example, researchers have been saying for a decade now that they are on the verge of a successful cross-species organ transplant, but these have thus far been a miserable failure. It is, I suppose, logically possible at least that science will one day progress to the point where it will be possible to transplant an organ successfully from a nonhuman to a human. And now you are confronted with the following choice: do you kill the dog or the pig or the chimpanzee to save a stranger?Why of course you would kill the animal to save a stranger.But think about it. Most people, if confronted with a choice of whether to save their child or someone else's child, or a thousand other children, would choose to save their own over ALL others. That is simply how people behave and that behavior is understandable. We favor ourselves and those close to us over others. But that understandable favoritism should not--indeed, cannot--serve as the basis for social policy. After all, just because you would choose your kid's life over that of your neighbor's kid in a situation of true emergency does not mean that you would favor allowing certain kids to be sacrificed for other kids as a matter of social policy.Consider how this false choice can be manipulated to work in other ways that should justify our suspicion about it. Assume that you are in a lifeboat with a dog, not just any dog but a longtime and deeply loved canine companion. The third occupant in the boat is Jim Finn. There is enough food and water only for two people. This is a true emergency. Whom do you ask to leave the lifeboat? Or do you yourself commit suicide and jump overboard? I know which option that I believe most desirable in that particular emergency situation, but that does not mean that I would be in favor of a rule of social policy that said that it was always OK to sacrifice the interests of all crappy fullbacks over all dogs. But, in the case of my dog or Jim, I am simply responding by favoring someone I love, someone I care about, a nonhuman member of my family, over a stranger.When someone asks the question "a stranger or a dog," that does not, I am afraid, settle the question of whether animals have rights. The implication of the false choice, however, very much begs that very question simply by assuming that it is always inappropriate to undervalue the life of an animal over that of a human. Sure, we have been taught by both the religious and the scientific that it is somehow blasphemous or anti-intellectual to question human superiority. But human superiority is a normative myth made up and pushed by humans. We all think that each of us, however low our level of functioning, is "superior" to every other animal, however developed its functioning. But that is just yet another human prejudice, quite similar to the view, still held by certain fascist types that any white male is "superior" to any person of color. It is a prejudice. And all prejudices need to be examined. Especially the ones that we all share.There may be cases where the dog in the lifeboat is a healthy puppy and the human being "alive" but in a state of irreversible coma. In such a case, to say that morality requires that you systematically decide in favor of brain-dead humans means that we need to examine our moral notions with a bit more scrutiny.Finally, I fail to understand how whatever we would do in a true emergency in which we had to make a choice between a stranger and a dog is relevant to whether we should continue to engage in the activity that consumes the most animal life: the eating of meat. When you sit down to dinner tonight, you will probably not be eating in a lifeboat and fighting for your food with a hungry canine companion. There is no moral emergency. And, therefore, we cannot use any such moral emergency to justify eating meat, which is neither necessary nor even desirable for human health.

 
You just asked why they were more important.  Parent to child is not equal to human to dog  imo.
It is if 'caring for' is the criterion in question, whichis what you gave. If they're not different, please give a separate criterion that applies to parent/child but does not apply to human/dog.Wait, I'll do it for you. Higher brain functions? Cerebrum? Speech? Technology? If it's one of those, why does that alter a species' right to live?

(And yes, fatguy, I'm still pondering your question. It was a good question.)
human didn't birth the dog. You are letting me down, Smoo.
These all affect why an individual may or may not value the human more. And I'm not disparaging anybody that does. I voted for human myself. What I'm disputing is the claim that humans have an inherently greater objective right to life. I'm saying that while I may not have voted for dog, I can understand and accept people who would as a valid morality and/or judgement call.I say that only because I think we're getting off track. If a human believes that their own species is more valuable than other species, that's fine. What I want to know is: why does that mean that everybody should believe that?

The reasons you're giving are great reasons why any given individual could or should believe that humans are better. But why is it an objective truth?

 
Finally, I fail to understand how whatever we would do in a true emergency in which we had to make a choice between a stranger and a dog is relevant to whether we should continue to engage in the activity that consumes the most animal life: the eating of meat. When you sit down to dinner tonight, you will probably not be eating in a lifeboat and fighting for your food with a hungry canine companion. There is no moral emergency. And, therefore, we cannot use any such moral emergency to justify eating meat, which is neither necessary nor even desirable for human health.
:confused: eating meat is not desirable?please expand on this.
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life.  That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
You're the one making representations on the respective values that God places on humans versus animals.And how do you square your categorical statements on this thread with your tacit approval of the death penalty?
God is the one who gives life and takes life. He created this game, so He gets to set the rules. Who are you and I to question it?I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
 
You just asked why they were more important.  Parent to child is not equal to human to dog  imo.
It is if 'caring for' is the criterion in question, whichis what you gave. If they're not different, please give a separate criterion that applies to parent/child but does not apply to human/dog.Wait, I'll do it for you. Higher brain functions? Cerebrum? Speech? Technology? If it's one of those, why does that alter a species' right to live?

(And yes, fatguy, I'm still pondering your question. It was a good question.)
human didn't birth the dog. You are letting me down, Smoo.
These all affect why an individual may or may not value the human more. And I'm not disparaging anybody that does. I voted for human myself. What I'm disputing is the claim that humans have an inherently greater objective right to life. I'm saying that while I may not have voted for dog, I can understand and accept people who would as a valid morality and/or judgement call.I say that only because I think we're getting off track. If a human believes that their own species is more valuable than other species, that's fine. What I want to know is: why does that mean that everybody should believe that?

The reasons you're giving are great reasons why any given individual could or should believe that humans are better. But why is it an objective truth?
So since you voted human, you are just arguing to hear yourself argue now?I'm done with this thread.

 
Hmmmmmmmmmm........Not long ago, I was giving a lecture on animal rights at a local college. I was arguing that the use of animals in biomedical research could not be justified. During the question and answer period, one of the students asked, "If you were forced to choose between a stranger and a dog, which would you choose?" Now, if I had a nickel for every time I was asked that over the years, I could probably afford to have retired years ago.I am sure that the student who asked the question on this particular occasion was in earnest, but I am sure that virtually everyone else who has ever asked me that question also asked it seriously and sincerely. The problem is that this question can do little to help us to understand the issues involved in the human/animal relationship.Let's think about it for a second.First of all, the choice is illusory in a very practical sense. It is very difficult--if not impossible--to show any clear causal link between the use of animals in research and finding cures for human diseases. There is considerable and legitimate controversy about the precise role that animals have played in this respect. To suggest that we are generally confronted with the real choice of a dog's life or a stranger's life is simply not accurate.But let's assume that the hypothetical is not as ridiculous as it is in fact. Let us assume just for argument that we are confronted with a real choice of which life to save--a stranger's or a dog's life. For example, researchers have been saying for a decade now that they are on the verge of a successful cross-species organ transplant, but these have thus far been a miserable failure. It is, I suppose, logically possible at least that science will one day progress to the point where it will be possible to transplant an organ successfully from a nonhuman to a human. And now you are confronted with the following choice: do you kill the dog or the pig or the chimpanzee to save a stranger?Why of course you would kill the animal to save a stranger.But think about it. Most people, if confronted with a choice of whether to save their child or someone else's child, or a thousand other children, would choose to save their own over ALL others. That is simply how people behave and that behavior is understandable. We favor ourselves and those close to us over others. But that understandable favoritism should not--indeed, cannot--serve as the basis for social policy. After all, just because you would choose your kid's life over that of your neighbor's kid in a situation of true emergency does not mean that you would favor allowing certain kids to be sacrificed for other kids as a matter of social policy.Consider how this false choice can be manipulated to work in other ways that should justify our suspicion about it. Assume that you are in a lifeboat with a dog, not just any dog but a longtime and deeply loved canine companion. The third occupant in the boat is Jim Finn. There is enough food and water only for two people. This is a true emergency. Whom do you ask to leave the lifeboat? Or do you yourself commit suicide and jump overboard? I know which option that I believe most desirable in that particular emergency situation, but that does not mean that I would be in favor of a rule of social policy that said that it was always OK to sacrifice the interests of all crappy fullbacks over all dogs. But, in the case of my dog or Jim, I am simply responding by favoring someone I love, someone I care about, a nonhuman member of my family, over a stranger.When someone asks the question "a stranger or a dog," that does not, I am afraid, settle the question of whether animals have rights. The implication of the false choice, however, very much begs that very question simply by assuming that it is always inappropriate to undervalue the life of an animal over that of a human. Sure, we have been taught by both the religious and the scientific that it is somehow blasphemous or anti-intellectual to question human superiority. But human superiority is a normative myth made up and pushed by humans. We all think that each of us, however low our level of functioning, is "superior" to every other animal, however developed its functioning. But that is just yet another human prejudice, quite similar to the view, still held by certain fascist types that any white male is "superior" to any person of color. It is a prejudice. And all prejudices need to be examined. Especially the ones that we all share.There may be cases where the dog in the lifeboat is a healthy puppy and the human being "alive" but in a state of irreversible coma. In such a case, to say that morality requires that you systematically decide in favor of brain-dead humans means that we need to examine our moral notions with a bit more scrutiny.Finally, I fail to understand how whatever we would do in a true emergency in which we had to make a choice between a stranger and a dog is relevant to whether we should continue to engage in the activity that consumes the most animal life: the eating of meat. When you sit down to dinner tonight, you will probably not be eating in a lifeboat and fighting for your food with a hungry canine companion. There is no moral emergency. And, therefore, we cannot use any such moral emergency to justify eating meat, which is neither necessary nor even desirable for human health.
:goodposting: I would have read it all in full if I had my ADD medicine, but the part I did read.... ohh, check it out, a penny.
 
I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
So what if the guy drowning is a murderer who is scheduled for execution that afternoon? Hell, what if the guy is being executed by drowing? Do you still save him over the dog?
 
You know, this discussion along with a lot of moral and religious threads here in the FFA reminds me of this passage from Chesterton's Heretics:

SUPPOSE that a great commotion arises in the street about something -- let us say a lamp-post, which many influential persons desire to pull down. A grey-clad monk, who is the spirit of the Middle Ages, is approached on the matter, and begins to say, in the arid manner of the Schoolmen, 'Let us first of all consider, my brethren, the value of Light. If Light be in itself good -- -- -- ' At this point he is somewhat excusably knocked down. All the people make a rush for the lamp-post, the lamppost is down in ten minutes, and they go about congratulating each other on their unmedieval practicality. But as things go on they do not work out so easily. Some people have pulled the lamp-post down because they wanted the electric light; some because they wanted old iron; some because they wanted darkness, because their deeds were evil. Some thought it not enough of a lamp-post, some too much; some acted because they wanted to smash municipal machinery; some because they wanted to smash something. And there is war in the night, no man knowing whom he strikes. So, gradually and inevitably, to-day, to-morrow, or the next day, there comes back the conviction that the monk was right after all, and that all depends on what is the philosophy of Light. Only what we might have discussed under the gas-lamp we must now discuss in the dark.
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life.  That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
You're the one making representations on the respective values that God places on humans versus animals.And how do you square your categorical statements on this thread with your tacit approval of the death penalty?
God is the one who gives life and takes life. He created this game, so He gets to set the rules. Who are you and I to question it?I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.

So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
If I wanted somebody to just recite opinions that were given to them from an outside source, I'd go to a Mrs. BSR thread. Have you actually used your own critical thinking abilities to come to any conclusions?
 
So since you voted human, you are just arguing to hear yourself argue now?

I'm done with this thread.
I voted human because that's my personal choice. Others are asserting that it should be everybody's personal choice based on some unwritten (or written, in Cross-Eyed's case) law and objectively obvious truth. That's what I disagree with. It's a legitimate debate, but feel free to run away if you think you're not doing well.ps - This in no way changes the fact that I still think you have the hottest wife. :excited:

 
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I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
So what if the guy drowning is a murderer who is scheduled for execution that afternoon? Hell, what if the guy is being executed by drowing? Do you still save him over the dog?
Pretty unbelievable scenario, wouldn't you agree? I don't know of too many death row inmates who have pool privileges. :lol: Regardless, I save the human being.
 
So since you voted human, you are just arguing to hear yourself argue now?

I'm done with this thread.
I voted human because that's my personal choice. Others are asserting that it should be everybody's personal choice based on some unwritten (or written, in Cross-Eyed's case) law and objectively obvious truth. That's what I disagree with. It's a legitimate debate, but feel free to run away if you think you're not doing well.
LOL :fishing:
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life.  That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
You're the one making representations on the respective values that God places on humans versus animals.And how do you square your categorical statements on this thread with your tacit approval of the death penalty?
God is the one who gives life and takes life. He created this game, so He gets to set the rules. Who are you and I to question it?I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.

So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
If I wanted somebody to just recite opinions that were given to them from an outside source, I'd go to a Mrs. BSR thread. Have you actually used your own critical thinking abilities to come to any conclusions?
So because you have made up your own rules for life, they are inherently better than the rules I happen to live by? You are "smarter" because I choose to follow what I believe to be the word of God.
 
Human life is more valuable than animal life.  That's the way God created things, and that doesn't change.
If that's the case, why did God kill every human on Earth save Noah's family, yet let all the fishies live?
You'll have to take that one up with the Creator. This is His gig, not mine.
You're the one making representations on the respective values that God places on humans versus animals.And how do you square your categorical statements on this thread with your tacit approval of the death penalty?
God is the one who gives life and takes life. He created this game, so He gets to set the rules. Who are you and I to question it?I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.

So my positions on these situations are consistent in that I follow what God's word tells me. Justice is necessary to protect the innocent.
If I wanted somebody to just recite opinions that were given to them from an outside source, I'd go to a Mrs. BSR thread. Have you actually used your own critical thinking abilities to come to any conclusions?
So because you have made up your own rules for life, they are inherently better than the rules I happen to live by? You are "smarter" because I choose to follow what I believe to be the word of God.
Don't attack his pride, CE, it's his most well developed muscle.
 
So since you voted human, you are just arguing to hear yourself argue now?

I'm done with this thread.
I voted human because that's my personal choice. Others are asserting that it should be everybody's personal choice based on some unwritten (or written, in Cross-Eyed's case) law and objectively obvious truth. That's what I disagree with. It's a legitimate debate, but feel free to run away if you think you're not doing well.
LOL :fishing:
So you believe that I don't actually hold the position I'm arguing for? You'd be wrong. Or am I misunderstanding your definition of 'fishing'? This is not fishing by any definition I'm familiar with, but you OBC chaps aren't above re-writing the rules from time to time to keep us on our toes, so please clarify.
 
I believe the Bible to be God's word. And Scripture tells us that God created man in His image. It also tells us that anyone who takes the life of man shall have his life taken.
What if I saved the life of a dog when I could have saved a man? Will the dog be taken from me?
 

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