War in Israel (2 Viewers)

[unckeyherb]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

And as I pointed out in response to Ivan we were able to do it in Germany because we treated the Germans humanely. The Russians didn’t treat them humanely and their occupation of East Germany was a 40 year tragedy as bad for the Russians as it was for the Germans. And THAT is the lesson we can take from that experience ,

Ok? They should of course treat non-combatants civilly and giving a heads up to people prior to bombing a Hamas location is an example that they are doing just that. None of this should preclude them from destroying Hamas.

 

[jm192]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Sitting on their thumbs while Hamas targets them with acts of terror seems to be the least safe option. "Stand by while they attack you or you'll be less safe" is as ridiculous as it sounds

 

[jm192]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

 

[Desert_Power]

He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

Have hospitals been bombed?

 

[timschochet]

He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

Have hospitals been bombed?

That’s what my friend says. I can’t find any evidence of it but i do know the hospitals face a terrible situation trying to evacuate sick and injured- and their morgues are filled to the brim:

Gaza’s Hospitals Face ‘Impossible’ Choices With Israel Evacuation Order (Published 2023)

As a widely anticipated ground invasion looms, hospitals in Gaza City said they had no way to evacuate thousands of sick and injured patients.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Sand]

So talking heads are proposing a land invasion will just create a whole new generation of Hamas recruits 20 years from now, but why is it not then logical to believe the actions of Hamas and what they did first to prompt this reaction by Israel just created a whole new generation of young Jewish people that will hate Hamas 20 years from now. There are excuses being made for one side and totally not even being considered for the other.

Only the civilized are expected to act civilized.

 

[unckeyherb]

He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

Have hospitals been bombed?

That’s what my friend says. I can’t find any evidence of it but i do know the hospitals face a terrible situation trying to evacuate sick and injured- and their morgues are filled to the brim:

Gaza’s Hospitals Face ‘Impossible’ Choices With Israel Evacuation Order (Published 2023)

As a widely anticipated ground invasion looms, hospitals in Gaza City said they had no way to evacuate thousands of sick and injured patients.

www.nytimes.com

It’s well known that Hamas locates their bases, missile launches, etc from schools and hospitals.

 

[Courtjester]

He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

Have hospitals been bombed?

That’s what my friend says. I can’t find any evidence of it but i do know the hospitals face a terrible situation trying to evacuate sick and injured- and their morgues are filled to the brim:

Gaza’s Hospitals Face ‘Impossible’ Choices With Israel Evacuation Order (Published 2023)

As a widely anticipated ground invasion looms, hospitals in Gaza City said they had no way to evacuate thousands of sick and injured patients.

www.nytimes.com

One of the arguments I have seen being made is about the absolute lack of new hospitals and schools that have actually been built in Gaza despite all the money that has been given to that region by various sources. I don't know about the validity of that point, but what is suggested is money is spent on weapons and terror vs actual human needs. What do you think about that position?

 

[Orange&Blue]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

And as I pointed out in response to Ivan we were able to do it in Germany because we treated the Germans humanely. The Russians didn’t treat them humanely and their occupation of East Germany was a 40 year tragedy as bad for the Russians as it was for the Germans. And THAT is the lesson we can take from that experience ,

we were treating them humanely by fire bombing the city of Dresden and Hamburg to a literal pile of ash?

the allies purposely used incendiary bombs instead of explosive bombs for these cities because they were more susceptible and we wanted to destroy as much if the civic structure and civilian support as possible.

we were able to rebuild, and frankly soviets as well but to a lesser degree, because any will to fight by the germans had been completely and utterly destroyed. maybe you meant after the war, but to claim we humanely destroyed their cities and population centers is revisionist history.

their will was destroyed and we had a great rebuilding effort with the marshall plan. is that needed here... IDK.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

According to IDF on Twitter, they have eliminated the Hamas leader of the 10/7 massacre:

https://x.com/IDF/status/1713129176104923383?s=20

 

[N Zone]

According to IDF on Twitter, they have eliminated the Hamas leader of the 10/7 massacre:

https://x.com/IDF/status/1713129176104923383?s=20

Appreciate the update. Found this: https://twitter.com/IAFsite/status/1713417874130211153?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1713417874130211153|twgr^2f0c672af3b5cc99d985f436389135f4abe60d94|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/top-hamas-commander-behind-israel-infiltration-killed-in-airstrike-4482620

And another leader was also killed: 'During the attack, Murad Abu Murad, the head of the air formation in Gaza City who took a large part and directed terrorists in the murderous attack on Saturday, was killed.' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...took-terror-groups-paraglider-unit-chief.html

 

[(HULK)]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

They actually updated their charter in 2017 or so to drop that and say they accept the 2 state solution. But it seemed to have zero impact on their actions so it was just likely just a PR move. Which, is clearly working to some extent since we're having people in certain corners saying what Hamas did was justified.

For me personally, there is plenty of blame for both Israel and Hamas, but Hamas is very clearly a terrorist organization and when you're out there repeating a terrorist group's talking points, you're almost as bad as the actual terrorists IMO.

 

[jm192]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

I get what you're saying.

But I think Israel views it as "This is about survival." I hope they're careful and measured in how they go about it. But I also understand that they were the victims of a terrorist attack and feel the need to protect themselves.

And while you say it will lead to more terror and killing--Hamas plans for more terror and killing already. I do think it makes more sense to take initiative and try to rid the world of them rather than wait for the next hit.

 

[parasaurolophus]

So talking heads are proposing a land invasion will just create a whole new generation of Hamas recruits 20 years from now, .

This makes no sense and is one of the things I keep hearing that makes me realize just how little most people know or at least how little people think about what they are saying.

Do these people really believe that somehow Hamas will just become decent moral people if Israel lets them attack them and then use human shields???

Like after a while they will be like, whoa, this is kinda boring. Let's start being good people?

I

 

[(HULK)]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

whose propaganda am I regurgitating? it's definitely not the US/global west media apparatus. the objective history is colonial powers have supported Israel in partitioning and colonializing historically ethnically Palestinian or otherwise culturally and religiously diverse land. I'd love to see the leftist propaganda I'm using so I can spread it further

You're repeating a terrorist group's talking points.

Think about how you feel about certain people that quote Hitler. And then maybe think about what you're saying again

 

[(HULK)]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It won't make Israel safer. What it could do is unite the Arab world against Israel and possibly draw the United States into a conflict. I've made some posts above about Ben Gvir, having a guy like that in the Israeli Cabinet is a sign that Israel has the potential to go even further right in the future and make the tensions in the area even worse.

How do you think Gvir got to be like he is? You think Hamas' actions won't create more Zionists?
Is Iran not responsible for Gaza's plight at all?

How do you think that Palestinians got the way they were? You think Gvir actions won't create more Hamas-like actors?
Is Israel not responsible for Gaza's plight at all?

I think you're both partially correct.

The entire situation is definitely in grey areas

 

[(HULK)]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It depends how far they take it.

If they root out 95% of Hamas, they will be safer for years to come.

The whole narrative of just fueling the next generation of hate implies that there wouldn't have been a next generation of hate if they acted differently.

There is literally nothing to point to that being the really real world. I don't mean that hyperbolically. There is literally nothing.

I mean little kids cheering in the streets ran after the trucks parading dead bodies.

And that was BEFORE the retaliation.

I think what happens AFTER Hamas is gone will have more bearing on the future of Israel and how peaceful things are or are not.

Do they help Palestine rebuild? Adopt the 2 or 3 state solution? Or do they lean on the remaining Palestinians even harder? That choice will decide how this plays out for the generations yet to come imo

 

[(HULK)]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

Of course he should blame Hamas, But it doesn’t work that way. He and millions of Muslims are never going to blame Hamas because they are concerned about the plight of Muslim children first just as Israelis are concerned about the plight of Jewish children first: The world would be a better place if we could find ways to extend our empathy.

 

[(HULK)]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

Of course he should blame Hamas, But it doesn’t work that way. He and millions of Muslims are never going to blame Hamas because they are concerned about the plight of Muslim children first just as Israelis are concerned about the plight of Jewish children first: The world would be a better place if we could find ways to extend our empathy.

Yes, but it Hamas intentionally making Muslim children military targets.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

Of course he should blame Hamas, But it doesn’t work that way. He and millions of Muslims are never going to blame Hamas because they are concerned about the plight of Muslim children first just as Israelis are concerned about the plight of Jewish children first: The world would be a better place if we could find ways to extend our empathy.

Yes, but it Hamas intentionally making Muslim children military targets.

They are. Hamas is clearly evil. I certainly don’t believe the IDF is evil. But I also don’t think I would have a lot of success convincing my Turkish friend, or many other Muslims, of that moral distinction, clear as it is to me.

 

[parasaurolophus]

He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

Have hospitals been bombed?

Hamas uses hospitals as headquarters and also uses them for torture and storing munitions.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It depends how far they take it.

If they root out 95% of Hamas, they will be safer for years to come.

The whole narrative of just fueling the next generation of hate implies that there wouldn't have been a next generation of hate if they acted differently.

There is literally nothing to point to that being the really real world. I don't mean that hyperbolically. There is literally nothing.

I mean little kids cheering in the streets ran after the trucks parading dead bodies.

And that was BEFORE the retaliation.

I think what happens AFTER Hamas is gone will have more bearing on the future of Israel and how peaceful things are or are not.

Do they help Palestine rebuild? Adopt the 2 or 3 state solution? Or do they lean on the remaining Palestinians even harder? That choice will decide how this plays out for the generations yet to come imo

I am very skeptical that Hamas will be gone.

I offer once again 9/11 as an example. We went into Afghanistan determined to destroy the Taliban once and for all. We completely removed them from Kabul. We set up a free and democratic government (which turned out to be very corrupt.) We destroyed everyone in al-Qeada we could find. We killed Osama Bin Ladin. Yet somehow, despite everything we did the Taliban never went away. They simply went into hiding. Now they are back in charge of Afghanistan.

 

[Jayrod]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

Of course he should blame Hamas, But it doesn’t work that way. He and millions of Muslims are never going to blame Hamas because they are concerned about the plight of Muslim children first just as Israelis are concerned about the plight of Jewish children first: The world would be a better place if we could find ways to extend our empathy.

Yes, but it Hamas intentionally making Muslim children military targets.

They are. Hamas is clearly evil. I certainly don’t believe the IDF is evil. But I also don’t think I would have a lot of success convincing my Turkish friend, or many other Muslims, of that moral distinction, clear as it is to me.

This is not a "two sides of the same coin" argument like you are portraying it.

The Muslims are flat out in the wrong here.

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

How can anyone believe that Jewish Israel is to blame here for what they have historically done? Sure they've done some things wrong, but overall it isn't even remotely close. They've been the victim and been more civil and restrained in almost every single exchange.

I'm so confused at how people could blame them for Hamas, Gaza's plight or the entire conflict. When have they EVER been the aggressor militarily? And they have exactly ONE country to call their own and the world forces them to share it with a people that have about 30 countries and 2 other cities considered holier than Jerusalem while constantly threatening to destroy them.

With all that in mind I can't fathom why anyone would decide this week was a good time to criticize Israel. I can think of only one reason and it is a pretty horrible one.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It depends how far they take it.

If they root out 95% of Hamas, they will be safer for years to come.

The whole narrative of just fueling the next generation of hate implies that there wouldn't have been a next generation of hate if they acted differently.

There is literally nothing to point to that being the really real world. I don't mean that hyperbolically. There is literally nothing.

I mean little kids cheering in the streets ran after the trucks parading dead bodies.

And that was BEFORE the retaliation.

I think what happens AFTER Hamas is gone will have more bearing on the future of Israel and how peaceful things are or are not.

Do they help Palestine rebuild? Adopt the 2 or 3 state solution? Or do they lean on the remaining Palestinians even harder? That choice will decide how this plays out for the generations yet to come imo

I am very skeptical that Hamas will be gone.

I offer once again 9/11 as an example. We went into Afghanistan determined to destroy the Taliban once and for all. We completely removed them from Kabul. We set up a free and democratic government (which turned out to be very corrupt.) We destroyed everyone in al-Qeada we could find. We killed Osama Bin Ladin. Yet somehow, despite everything we did the Taliban never went away. They simply went into hiding. Now they are back in charge of Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is a lot bigger and no walls.

 

[ren hoek]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

And as I pointed out in response to Ivan we were able to do it in Germany because we treated the Germans humanely. The Russians didn’t treat them humanely and their occupation of East Germany was a 40 year tragedy as bad for the Russians as it was for the Germans. And THAT is the lesson we can take from that experience ,

Ok? They should of course treat non-combatants civilly and giving a heads up to people prior to bombing a Hamas location is an example that they are doing just that. None of this should preclude them from destroying Hamas.

It should if it involves them committing massive crimes against humanity. Which it will. And with our American tax dollars no less.

Goes without saying that what Hamas did was horrible. But it doesn't justify an insane bombing campaign against Palestinian civilians.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

Responding doesn't make you wrong or evil. It doesn't mean you're "making things worse." Hamas made a choice. Israeal has a duty to protect it's citizens. Sitting still while their people are slaughtered would be "making things worse."

I have a very close friend, Turkish. He’s no fan of Hamas but he is incensed that hospitals and schools in Gaza have been hit with bombs and children are dead,

When Hamas struck Israel he told me he felt terrible for Israelis, But this morning he sent out a message on Facebook- “eff Israel!” He’s very angry, I don’t share that anger but I understand it. There will be no convincing him otherwise.

My friend doesn’t matter; he lives here, he’s a businessman, he’s not going to partake in anything crazy or stupid. But I bring him up to demonstrate how people can become radicalized so easily when they see things that anger them. When children die, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian, there is no justification, no explanation that’s going to work for either side. The only result can be more terror and more killing.

Tell him to blame Hamas. It is Hamas intentionally using human shields, storing rockets in the basements of hospitals and schools and turning them into military targets. These acts by Hamas are in fact war crimes on the part of Hamas and not Israel. But the nuance of the situation is easily missed and that's EXACTLY what Hamas wants. People like your friend getting PO'd. But the fact of the matter is, Hamas is turning civilians into military targets intentionally. Tell him to stop falling for it.

Of course he should blame Hamas, But it doesn’t work that way. He and millions of Muslims are never going to blame Hamas because they are concerned about the plight of Muslim children first just as Israelis are concerned about the plight of Jewish children first: The world would be a better place if we could find ways to extend our empathy.

Yes, but it Hamas intentionally making Muslim children military targets.

They are. Hamas is clearly evil. I certainly don’t believe the IDF is evil. But I also don’t think I would have a lot of success convincing my Turkish friend, or many other Muslims, of that moral distinction, clear as it is to me.

This is not a "two sides of the same coin" argument like you are portraying it.

The Muslims are flat out in the wrong here.

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

How can anyone believe that Jewish Israel is to blame here for what they have historically done? Sure they've done some things wrong, but overall it isn't even remotely close. They've been the victim and been more civil and restrained in almost every single exchange.

I'm so confused at how people could blame them for Hamas, Gaza's plight or the entire conflict. When have they EVER been the aggressor militarily? And they have exactly ONE country to call their own and the world forces them to share it with a people that have about 30 countries and 2 other cities considered holier than Jerusalem while constantly threatening to destroy them.

With all that in mind I can't fathom why anyone would decide this week was a good time to criticize Israel. I can think of only one reason and it is a pretty horrible one.

I understand your perspective. I think, however, that it’s limited and unforgiving. Which, incidentally is exactly what I told my Turkish friend who blames Israel. Like you, he is 100% sure that he’s morally right. Like you, he is emotional about this situation and extremely passionate. And he’s a good person and I have no reason to think you aren’t as well, And yet you look at this situation with completely opposite perspectives,

 

[ren hoek]

I'm so confused at how people could blame them for Hamas, Gaza's plight or the entire conflict.

Israel supported Hamas for about 20 years, when it was seen as a way to undercut the PLO and divide/conquer Palestinians. They did that. These so-called democracies go to great lengths to subjugate other countries, control their political bodies, escalate things to armed conflict, and then act like the wounded victim when it inevitably blows up in their face.

There is a great documentary, called "Road to Apartheid". It draws a clear line between apartheid in South Africa and modern day Israel. South Africa actually reached out to Israel for help on how to weather international criticism for its apartheid policies. Richard Spencer even cited Israel as the model for his vision of an ethnostate.

There have been many diplomatic failures along the way but apartheid is the original sin at this point.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I'm so confused at how people could blame them for Hamas, Gaza's plight or the entire conflict.

Israel supported Hamas for about 20 years, when it was seen as a way to undercut the PLO and divide/conquer Palestinians. They did that. These so-called democracies go to great lengths to subjugate other countries, control their political bodies, escalate things to armed conflict, and then act like the wounded victim when it inevitably blows up in their face.

There is a great documentary, called "Road to Apartheid". It draws a clear line between apartheid in South Africa and modern day Israel. South Africa actually reached out to Israel for help on how to weather international criticism for its apartheid policies. Richard Spencer even cited Israel as the model for his vision of an ethnostate.

There have been many diplomatic failures along the way but apartheid is the original sin at this point.

I’m just learning about most of this stuff, so please forgive my ignorance. But a couple questions:

In your opinion, how should Israel have reacted to Hamas’ attack?

Whose claim to the land is more legitimate, Israel’s or Palestine’s?

How can Israel safely/diplomatically end its oppression of Palestinians?

 

[Jayrod]

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

I understand your perspective. I think, however, that it’s limited and unforgiving. Which, incidentally is exactly what I told my Turkish friend who blames Israel. Like you, he is 100% sure that he’s morally right. Like you, he is emotional about this situation and extremely passionate. And he’s a good person and I have no reason to think you aren’t as well, And yet you look at this situation with completely opposite perspectives,

Between he and I, who do you think has more of a biased position?

What about my stance is "limited & unforgiving"?

 

[Rattle and Hum]

Wouldn't it be possible to get aid to the Gaza people (non-Hamas) through old Mediterranean ports in southern Gaza? Why does it have to go through Egypt?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I didn’t frequent the PSF often (and I’ll say this topic has been mostly civil outside of a few losing their minds) but when I did, this thread really is a microcosm of what happened there. Everyone sees everything in black and white instead of the shades of grey that are usually the reality of almost every situation. Then they sit here and “mock” and name call anyone expressing an opinion different from them. I don’t think there’s any anti-Semites in here and yet that word has been thrown out often.

There really is no discourse anymore - just two sides shouting eachother down.

This is a tragic situation all around. The actions a week ago were atrocious and I doubt anyone disagrees with that or Israel’s right to now counter attack- but some in here act like bringing up any type of history is siding with the terrorists instead of offering background. On the flip side, some people are so quick to villify the side that were the obvious victims now (there’s a time and place for everything) that it could come across as trolling (especially with emotions running hot).

95% of the people in here are more interested in the news going forward and how life goes on after this - but there’s a few people that are more interested in agitating and a few people letting it happen and acting out emotionally.

Personally I’d like to see this thread stay open. I’ve learned a lot and as with most things, I can see both sides of an issue and appreciate different perspectives.

If this causes you to be overly emotional to the point that you cannot read the perspective of the opposing views, you should probably stay out of the thread before you ruin it for the people that are interested in following the story and learning about a complex situation.

 

[Joe Bryant]

There have been many diplomatic failures along the way but apartheid is the original sin at this point.

I do have to give you kudos because at least you are making it obvious so no one mistakes your intentions.

This kind of slapping at each other instead of talking about the actual issue is why the PSF is gone.

Please keep the posts to be about the topic and the topic only if this thread is to survive.

Clearly, this is a passionate topic for many. But please don't get this thread locked.

 

[Jayrod]

There have been many diplomatic failures along the way but apartheid is the original sin at this point.

I do have to give you kudos because at least you are making it obvious so no one mistakes your intentions.

This kind of slapping at each other instead of talking about the actual issue is why the PSF is gone.

Please keep the posts to be about the topic and the topic only if this thread is to survive.

Clearly, this is a passionate topic for many. But please don't get this thread locked.

Thanks for the grace. I deleted that one will try a better approach in the future.

 

[SWC]

all of the intractable opinions in here is illustrative of why the middle east is as much of a mess as it is unless there is compromise and understanding and the violence stops there will never be peace take that to the bank brohans

 

[ZADO]

The pure hate for Jewish people all around the world is beyond ugly and so incomprehensible , but Germany warning Jews to hide their faith and who they are is beyond the pale , have we as people learned nothing since the Holocaust ?

I am stunned to my core.

 

[parasaurolophus]

all of the intractable opinions in here is illustrative of why the middle east is as much of a mess as it is unless there is compromise and understanding and the violence stops there will never be peace take that to the bank brohans

As usual SWC is correct. If the violence stops there wouldn't be any violence.

 

[Fat Nick]

I offer once again 9/11 as an example. We went into Afghanistan determined to destroy the Taliban once and for all. We completely removed them from Kabul. We set up a free and democratic government (which turned out to be very corrupt.) We destroyed everyone in al-Qeada we could find. We killed Osama Bin Ladin. Yet somehow, despite everything we did the Taliban never went away. They simply went into hiding. Now they are back in charge of Afghanistan.

It's the challenge with fighting a non-governmental entity I guess. They can simply stop doing what they were doing and disseminate into the general population so easily - when there are no more Taliban with AK-47's openly advancing the cause, they're "gone." Then when the massive US military leaves, they simply pick up their guns and they're "back."

Honestly, making another parallel, it's survival warfare when fighting a larger foe. It's no different than what the early colonials did when they fought for independence vs. Britain. In that day and age, you lined up in your bright red uniforms and fired at each other until one side yielded. Those were the "rules of warfare." We realized we'd never beat Britain in a conventional war, so we went guerilla. Use the land, wear drab outfits. Attack the large British formations and move before they could mobilize. We changed the war to fit our advantages.

It's really no different than what these Islamic radical groups are doing now. They realize you can't beat the US Military on a conventional battle field - but you can out-last them and go into hiding, then just come back out when they're gone.

 

[AAABatteries]

all of the intractable opinions in here is illustrative of why the middle east is as much of a mess as it is unless there is compromise and understanding and the violence stops there will never be peace take that to the bank brohans

What’s mind blowing to me is there’s so many in that region who apparently don’t want peace.

 

[timschochet]

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

I understand your perspective. I think, however, that it’s limited and unforgiving. Which, incidentally is exactly what I told my Turkish friend who blames Israel. Like you, he is 100% sure that he’s morally right. Like you, he is emotional about this situation and extremely passionate. And he’s a good person and I have no reason to think you aren’t as well, And yet you look at this situation with completely opposite perspectives,

Between he and I, who do you think has more of a biased position?

What about my stance is "limited & unforgiving"?

1. I’m not going to judge which one is more biased. Between the two positions I’m more sympathetic to yours but that is a result my OWN biases and upbringing.

2. I think you have a view of this situation which is too black and white- not about what Hamas did- that SHOULD be black and white- but about Israel’s respond and about the Palestinians of Gaza in general. I believe this to be a very complex situation.

 

[[icon]]

I'm so confused at how people could blame them for Hamas, Gaza's plight or the entire conflict.

Israel supported Hamas for about 20 years, when it was seen as a way to undercut the PLO and divide/conquer Palestinians. They did that. These so-called democracies go to great lengths to subjugate other countries, control their political bodies, escalate things to armed conflict, and then act like the wounded victim when it inevitably blows up in their face.

There is a great documentary, called "Road to Apartheid". It draws a clear line between apartheid in South Africa and modern day Israel. South Africa actually reached out to Israel for help on how to weather international criticism for its apartheid policies. Richard Spencer even cited Israel as the model for his vision of an ethnostate.

There have been many diplomatic failures along the way but apartheid is the original sin at this point.

I’m just learning about most of this stuff, so please forgive my ignorance. But a couple questions:

In your opinion, how should Israel have reacted to Hamas’ attack?

Whose claim to the land is more legitimate, Israel’s or Palestine’s?

How can Israel safely/diplomatically end its oppression of Palestinians?

I, too, am curious to hear @ren hoek's response to these questions

Anyone supporting Palestine in here is welcome to answer the question. I'm curious to hear what they think an "appropriate" response would be to the abhorrent actions by Hamas.

Also would like to hear their thoughts on Hamas' use of human shields/hospitals/schools as cover for their base operations.

Intrigued by the thought process behind the support of this attack

 

[The Commish]

all of the intractable opinions in here is illustrative of why the middle east is as much of a mess as it is unless there is compromise and understanding and the violence stops there will never be peace take that to the bank brohans

What’s mind blowing to me is there’s so many in that region who apparently don’t want peace.

Read the Quran and it becomes a little clearer

 

[The Commish]

Can't believe this thread is still open after reading the last few pages.

 

[Jayrod]

Can't believe this thread is still open after reading the last few pages.

Joe explained it. Do you want it closed?

 

[The Commish]

Can't believe this thread is still open after reading the last few pages.

Joe explained it. Do you want it closed?

I'm not big on closing anything. But when I came into this thread to catch up after a weekend away, it was reading just like the PSF. So when I see "no political talk here" posted everywhere in the FFA, I was surprised to see it open.

 

[The General]

Has there been a long term goal for Gaza from Israel stated once the area is leveled and Hamas leadership killed?

 

[Jayrod]

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

I understand your perspective. I think, however, that it’s limited and unforgiving. Which, incidentally is exactly what I told my Turkish friend who blames Israel. Like you, he is 100% sure that he’s morally right. Like you, he is emotional about this situation and extremely passionate. And he’s a good person and I have no reason to think you aren’t as well, And yet you look at this situation with completely opposite perspectives,

Between he and I, who do you think has more of a biased position?

What about my stance is "limited & unforgiving"?

1. I’m not going to judge which one is more biased. Between the two positions I’m more sympathetic to yours but that is a result my OWN biases and upbringing.

2. I think you have a view of this situation which is too black and white- not about what Hamas did- that SHOULD be black and white- but about Israel’s respond and about the Palestinians of Gaza in general. I believe this to be a very complex situation.

On the complexity, I am well aware of it. More than most. I've read both sides of this subject for years now and have a mild obsession with both world geography and potential WW3 flashpoints.

Historically, the Jews have been consistently mistreated. In Europe and definitely in the ME. They were officially given a homeland in 1947 after 2000 years of this mistreatment...a piece of ground that they both had ancient ties to and was minimally populated at the time. Yes there was relocation, but both Arabs AND Jews were relocated. Then came a war because the surrounding Muslim nations didn't want a Jewish nation as their neighbor but to everyone's surprise, the Jews won. And then they won the next war, and the next and the next. Very important to note, they never started any of these wars. Like a dozen various wars and skirmishes over 75 years and not once did they begin by moving in troops to attack. Not once. But each time, they took more ground and each time they became more protective and harsh with the Muslims in their borders. I'll acknowledge that every time. They are harsh/firm/rough with anyone who is Arabic or Muslim. They racially profile them and and are unfair to them when under their authority.

But my question is, wouldn't you be? Can you blame them? I feel like anyone who thinks the Jews should just forgive and move on are similar to a battered wife who stays with her husband and refuses to press charges despite the fact he knocked her out last night. That husband isn't going to change and neither are the Muslims. A significant portion of Muslims want all of the Jews dead and have for a thousand years. They've said as much and they've acted in such a manner as long as we've all been alive.

But the opposite is not true. There is no significant portion of Jews who want all Muslims dead. There is not significant portion of Jews who want to take over Jordan and Syria and Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and Egypt. The overwhelming majority just want possession of the land of Israel (some more land than others) and to be left alone. But the Muslims can't concede that or anything close to it. They won't and haven't. Jerusalem and the temple mount is THE tipping point (and the West Bank to some extent) but if the Muslims would allow the Jews control over their 3rd most holy site, then this thing would all be over. It is literally the Jews ONLY holy site.

I just don't understand how people don't get that viewpoint and sympathize with it and don't see the Jews as being the most reasonable and "right" on this argument. The Muslims have refused any compromise because the Jews are asking for basically one area of land and that is a non-starter for the entire Muslim world. Again, this isn't even as important to them as Mecca or Medina, but they still refuse.

I really have no personal reason for my stances. It will not effect me directly unless we end up in WW3 and my son gets drafted. I have never even been to the Middle East. I personally know only a handful of Arabic and Jewish people and no one close to me is either. Christianity has been both hostile and sympathetic to people of Jewish faith. I'm in the middle there. Yes they were God's chosen people and Jesus was Jewish, but the practicing Jews of today have rejected Jesus and are further outside of my faith than an atheist.

So you can call me biased all you want, but I'm open to change. I'm really not "black and white" on this issue, but I've just read enough and seen enough that my opinion is firmly entrenched and I don't see anything in this thread or recent events to change my mind.

 

[timschochet]

I'm a Christian American of mostly German & Scandinavian heritage. I'm neither Jewish or Arabic or Muslim so this effects me neither personally or directly. The right and wrong on this conflict (the long term one) is as clear as day to me.

I understand your perspective. I think, however, that it’s limited and unforgiving. Which, incidentally is exactly what I told my Turkish friend who blames Israel. Like you, he is 100% sure that he’s morally right. Like you, he is emotional about this situation and extremely passionate. And he’s a good person and I have no reason to think you aren’t as well, And yet you look at this situation with completely opposite perspectives,

Between he and I, who do you think has more of a biased position?

What about my stance is "limited & unforgiving"?

1. I’m not going to judge which one is more biased. Between the two positions I’m more sympathetic to yours but that is a result my OWN biases and upbringing.

2. I think you have a view of this situation which is too black and white- not about what Hamas did- that SHOULD be black and white- but about Israel’s respond and about the Palestinians of Gaza in general. I believe this to be a very complex situation.

On the complexity, I am well aware of it. More than most. I've read both sides of this subject for years now and have a mild obsession with both world geography and potential WW3 flashpoints.

Historically, the Jews have been consistently mistreated. In Europe and definitely in the ME. They were officially given a homeland in 1947 after 2000 years of this mistreatment...a piece of ground that they both had ancient ties to and was minimally populated at the time. Yes there was relocation, but both Arabs AND Jews were relocated. Then came a war because the surrounding Muslim nations didn't want a Jewish nation as their neighbor but to everyone's surprise, the Jews won. And then they won the next war, and the next and the next. Very important to note, they never started any of these wars. Like a dozen various wars and skirmishes over 75 years and not once did they begin by moving in troops to attack. Not once. But each time, they took more ground and each time they became more protective and harsh with the Muslims in their borders. I'll acknowledge that every time. They are harsh/firm/rough with anyone who is Arabic or Muslim. They racially profile them and and are unfair to them when under their authority.

But my question is, wouldn't you be? Can you blame them? I feel like anyone who thinks the Jews should just forgive and move on are similar to a battered wife who stays with her husband and refuses to press charges despite the fact he knocked her out last night. That husband isn't going to change and neither are the Muslims. A significant portion of Muslims want all of the Jews dead and have for a thousand years. They've said as much and they've acted in such a manner as long as we've all been alive.

But the opposite is not true. There is no significant portion of Jews who want all Muslims dead. There is not significant portion of Jews who want to take over Jordan and Syria and Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and Egypt. The overwhelming majority just want possession of the land of Israel (some more land than others) and to be left alone. But the Muslims can't concede that or anything close to it. They won't and haven't. Jerusalem and the temple mount is THE tipping point (and the West Bank to some extent) but if the Muslims would allow the Jews control over their 3rd most holy site, then this thing would all be over. It is literally the Jews ONLY holy site.

I just don't understand how people don't get that viewpoint and sympathize with it and don't see the Jews as being the most reasonable and "right" on this argument. The Muslims have refused any compromise because the Jews are asking for basically one area of land and that is a non-starter for the entire Muslim world. Again, this isn't even as important to them as Mecca or Medina, but they still refuse.

I really have no personal reason for my stances. It will not effect me directly unless we end up in WW3 and my son gets drafted. I have never even been to the Middle East. I personally know only a handful of Arabic and Jewish people and no one close to me is either. Christianity has been both hostile and sympathetic to people of Jewish faith. I'm in the middle there. Yes they were God's chosen people and Jesus was Jewish, but the practicing Jews of today have rejected Jesus and are further outside of my faith than an atheist.

So you can call me biased all you want, but I'm open to change. I'm really not "black and white" on this issue, but I've just read enough and seen enough that my opinion is firmly entrenched and I don't see anything in this thread or recent events to change my mind.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it and respect your opinion.

 

[dkp993]

How can anyone believe that Jewish Israel is to blame here for what they have historically done? Sure they've done some things wrong, but overall it isn't even remotely close.

With all that in mind I can't fathom why anyone would decide this week was a good time to criticize Israel. I can think of only one reason and it is a pretty horrible one.

There is certainly more then the one reason you are insinuating. And I’ll give you one example.

I’ve largely stayed out of this thread (other then to thank @Joe Bryant and others for keeping it open) because I don’t feel educated enough on the subject to intelligently add to it. Like a many this horrendous act of Hamas has Engaged me into the subject and I’ve learned a lot of the last few weeks. Also, like many,. I think I’ve come away with the overall feeling that this is an incredibly complex situation.

So to give you an example of why it doesn’t have to be antisemitism, it all comes down to the weighting of your first post. While you acknowledge Israel hasn‘t necessarily Always acted right in this complex situation, your largely dismissing their actions. This is certainly your right. Others who also acknowledge that Israel hasn’t an always acted right simply weight those actions more then you. Those people then have a different level of empathy that muddies the water to a degree it doesn’t for you. It’s as simple as that. It’s not always hate or antisemitism (though I’m sure for some people it is), it’s simply a different perspective.