NewlyRetired
Footballguy
not a read but if you want a good podcast, I thought this was very indepth
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-premier-league-season-preview/id1488523269?i=1000531730808
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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ramsay Hunt Experience
- Start date
not a read but if you want a good podcast, I thought this was very indepth
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-premier-league-season-preview/id1488523269?i=1000531730808
B Maverick
Footballguy
One more day!
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
If Chelsea are bringing people back, can they re-hire Eva?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
While I get your point and agree due to history and finances, it's just seems like we do Leicester a disservice. They've won the league and the FA Cup in the last decade. Spurs haven't won a trophy in a long time and Arsenal have been pretty pedestrian since Wenger left.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Oh, I agree. But when people refer to the big 6, that's who it is.
Crazy that Leicester wasn't even in the EPL just prior to winning the EPL.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I'm starting to lean toward Leicester being "my team" the more I find out about them...
encaitar
Footballguy
They wouldn't be a bad choice. Not a traditional power, but currently one of the top 5 teams in the league. They won't ever be 'expected' to challenge for the title, but their run in 2016 to the top shows that it's possible and it would be very rewarding as a fan to watch them beat the giants of English football.
Their downside is that you'll likely have to watch every great player they develop move on pretty quickly. Kante, Mahrez, Maguire, and Chillwell were all bought by bigger English squads in the last 5 years. Rumors are that James Maddison is being pursued this summer now as well. That's going to be a common theme as long as the big 6 continue to have so much more spending power than the rest of English football.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm struggling with the fact the PL has just a handful of teams that take everyone else's players. Just curious how fans put up with that? Why no salary cap or something? Seems pretty stupid for over half the teams.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
encaitar
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I struggled with the same concerns for years when I first started following Euro football. I think when you're coming in green to something new, and its something that is a massively popular mutli-billion dollar enterprise that's based on a hugely successful model that's been around for over 100 years, its probably not a great look to say that system is stupid. I think its probably best to watch a season or two and see what you think after gaining some knowledge about the league.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
So explain to me how it's good to have more than half the teams seemingly never have a shot at winning. Not being a smartass. Enlighten me.
gianmarco
Footballguy
This.
One of the things to keep in mind is that these teams compete in the annual UEFA Champions League. These teams need quality and depth in order to do so and compete. They are competing against clubs from other countries that have similar setups. Impose a salary cap and you can kiss your chances of ever competing in the Champions League (and making more money) goodbye unless you get other countries to all agree, at the same time. In other words, not happening.
That said, even with these top "stacked" teams, the other clubs can still do well. Players can still thrive on worse teams. In the end, the quality of the product on the field is good, especially when the top teams face off. And there are still those moments when the minnows win.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think the simple answer is that winning the championship isn’t the end all be all that it is here in the States. They love football and their teams - it’s part of their life in ways that most of us can’t understand. Beating United or Linerpool in the FA Cup 4th round brings more euphoria than winning the World Series does to the average MLB fan. These fans are rabid and follow their teams even in to the lower divisions. How many US fans would continue being Yankees or Cowboys fans if they played in the minors? Not saying they are better fans or their model is better but more answering your question on why it’s good or more accurately, different.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Still miss that Drinkwater/Jeffrey Schlup combination. Where one was an onomatopoeia for the other.
Really its not much different than most of the leagues in the US.
If you enjoy the style of soccer - and each league is slightly different - then you get to see some of the best players in the world play -and that is enjoyable. If you immerse yourself into a particular team - it becomes more of a passion, where you enjoy the journey, the ups, and the downs.
So, lets say you pick Leicester - you would want them to win the league, but also, you will focus on the race for top-4 (Champions League), or top-6 (Europa League), you will also follow them in Europa League, and see that as a possible trophy for the season, and of course the luck of the draw in the two domestic cups. There will be big wins, against big teams, and disappointing dropped points along the way - the highs and the lows.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I'm not sure I can convince you of WHY it's good. Only that it doesn't seem to hurt the popularity of those leagues. Last year was actually a huge outlier in several leagues. Juventus didn't win Serie A (they had won the last nine before). PSG didn't win Ligue Un (they had won 7 or the last 8 before). Neither Barcelona nor Real Madrid won La Liga (one of the two had won 15 of the last 16 seasons).
People say they like parity, but I think the popularity of dynasties kind of belies that. And for these big clubs, NOT winning their domestic league is a huge failure. Juventus is considered kind of a failure because they didn't win the Champions League once in their long run of Serie A championships. The biggest clubs in each big league measure success against each other. Which is why the Super League thing holds appeal for them.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I don't think its a huge mystery. Just looking at college football, there are 5 teams with odds under +1000 to win the national championship. #6 is Iowa St. at +2500. There are dozens of teams with essentially no statistical likelihood of winning a championship and they all have a dedicated rabid fanbase that will be there year in/out. Do more than half the NFL teams have a legit shot at winning the Superbowl this season? Some of the bottom feeders might hope to have a shot in a few years if things go right, but the fans are still mostly going to show up.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
They obviously thought it would increase revenue, but I don't the big clubs could have thought that it eliminated a lot of risk. The risk of Real Madrid or Juventus or Bayern flat out missing the Champions League is extremely minute. But by making sure that they would only play other big teams, they could negotiate a better TV package that doesn't have to market Man U v. Sparta Prague or something.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I'll give you the college football comparison in that fans can still be rabid even though their program has no shot at the national championship. Hell, I was Gopher season ticket holder for years and years. So there are different definitions of success.
But it's still amateur sports. And there are so many factors that would make it impossible to create parity in college sports, so I don't think its an apples-to-apples comparison.
That being said, I don't think college football is popular because of the lack of parity - it's in spite of that. I think MLB achieved one level of popularity without a salary cap, and it has exploded in popularity since one was introduced. It's still not perfect, of course, as there are still haves and have nots and a lot of that has to do with finances.
in the NFL, yes, on any given year maybe only 15 teams have a shot at the title. But if you look at a larger snapshot of time, virtually every single team has made the playoffs and gone deep into them if not won it all. Now, that doesn't make the NFL perfect or anything. Just very different.
It just seems odd to me, that's all.
I think the piece that was brought up by someone else about the PL's relationship with and participation in other international leagues really does make soccer completely unique in that sense. So I'll grant that that likely makes the whole discussion a non-starter.
(I still contend soccer fans are a very sensitive lot.
)
El Floppo
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Did you mean the NFL and not MLB?
I am pretty sure MLB is the one US league that does not have a salary cap and their popularity has really been in a general slow but steady decline amongst under 50 year people for about a decade now.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I meant MLB. There's a luxury tax which is a form of cap. And I know the sport is dying now among younger people, but it had a pretty significant surge for quite a while I believe. Its current state of affairs has more to do with the lack of attention span in our current society, IMO.
Moe.
Footballguy
realistically how many NBA teams have a shot at a championship each year?
I totally get the question, but as you follow the leagues it starts to make sense. There are tons of local rivalries that matter to the fans, and avoiding relegation is a huge win for a certain portion of each league. Others are competing to qualifying for European competitions the following season as well. There are cup competitions that run concurrently to the league. There's plenty going on and it doesn't really seem to matter that much all things considered.
I totally get the question, but as you follow the leagues it starts to make sense. There are tons of local rivalries that matter to the fans, and avoiding relegation is a huge win for a certain portion of each league. Others are competing to qualifying for European competitions the following season as well. There are cup competitions that run concurrently to the league. There's plenty going on and it doesn't really seem to matter that much all things considered.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Something to understand when we talk about salary caps and luxury taxes. Those things don't exist in American sports because some Platonic league creator thought they were the best way to structure a league. They exist without violating antitrust laws specifically because the United States Supreme Court created a non-statutory exemption to the Sherman Act for anticompetitive measures that were nevertheless achieved through collective bargaining with a labor group. Which means that the NFL and the NBA, for instance, had to bargain with their respective player's unions and give other concessions in order to enact these measures.
I'm not an expert in European competition law, but I understand it can differ quite a bit from our competition law. And I'm reasonably sure that none of these European leagues have a recognized union that engages in collective bargaining for the players. There are player's associations like FIFPro, but they don't seem to bargain with UEFA or the major leagues. I read just today that UEFA is considering a salary cap or luxury tax proposal, but I think they might find it very hard to implement those proposals lawfully in Europe. Financial Fair Play at least doesn't cap any team's spending at any number. If you can generate enough revenue, you can theoretically spend as much as you like. Consequently, FFP almost certainly hurts small teams as compared to big teams, but does not appear to violate European competition laws..
I'm not an expert in European competition law, but I understand it can differ quite a bit from our competition law. And I'm reasonably sure that none of these European leagues have a recognized union that engages in collective bargaining for the players. There are player's associations like FIFPro, but they don't seem to bargain with UEFA or the major leagues. I read just today that UEFA is considering a salary cap or luxury tax proposal, but I think they might find it very hard to implement those proposals lawfully in Europe. Financial Fair Play at least doesn't cap any team's spending at any number. If you can generate enough revenue, you can theoretically spend as much as you like. Consequently, FFP almost certainly hurts small teams as compared to big teams, but does not appear to violate European competition laws..
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
ok. The "surge in popularity" confused me. Even here in Boston where Baseball still means something, all the local sports radio shows, which feature some baseball diehards, all recognize the game is headed significantly in the wrong direction demographically.
I personally don't consider the luxury tax a salary cap, at least in any terms that deal with equity in spending. The top team in baseball this year is spending $267m, the bottom team is spending under $50m. That is a massive gap in spending IMO.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
oh and I meant to add the luxury tax is what UEFA is now considering for teams that spend over the mythical FFP limit.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9888345/UEFA-introduce-proposals-replace-Financial-Fair-Play-rules-salary-cap-luxury-tax.html
DJackson10
Footballguy
Arsenal and Spurs. The 6 who all went into the Super League and most of the time considered the elite 6 of the EPL for yrsJaxBill said:
DJackson10
Footballguy
Leicester isn't known as part of the big 6 known for decision making in the EPL. They are a good club these days but the guys in elite 6 historically are those clubs
Jaysus
Good times!
Dear @BeTheMatch stop thinking about it so much and enjoy it for what it is. If a team you support does not do well in the Premier league there is always hope for them in the Championship!
P.S. speaking of the premier league, you should join our free fantasy league - something similar helped me when I tried to give MLS a real go a few years back (which failed, MLS is the worst to watch on TV): https://fantasy.premierleague.com/leagues/auto-join/6sx8ml
The deadline is today, just autopick a team and go from there.
P.S. speaking of the premier league, you should join our free fantasy league - something similar helped me when I tried to give MLS a real go a few years back (which failed, MLS is the worst to watch on TV): https://fantasy.premierleague.com/leagues/auto-join/6sx8ml
The deadline is today, just autopick a team and go from there.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
In order of stadium capacity (35k+ only):
- Man United (76k)
- Tottenham (63k)
- Arsenal (61k)
- West Ham (60k)
- Man City (55k)
- Liverpool (54k -> 61k)
- Newcastle (53k)
- Sunderland (49k)
- Aston Villa (43k)
- Chelsea (42k)
- Sheffield Wednesday (40k)
- Everton (39k)
- Leeds (38k)
El Floppo
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
it might be nice to see an IMO when making such an inflammatory statement. Stating this as fact when a ton of us enjoy MLS games is really insulting to say the least.
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Jaysus
Good times!
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
It's a fact that my attempt to become an MLS fan failed
that's is fine. I did not quote that as what you stated as fact. You basically called any one who liked MLS an idiot.
Jaysus
Good times!
Nah, I said it was the worst to watch on TV. There is a team in my home market that I could not even watch on television
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Nah, I said it was the worst to watch on TV. There is a team in my home market that I could not even watch on television
Again that is your opinion. And an unfortunate one at that considering how many good players Philly are producing.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
sounds like it was a tribute to his dad. Good for him
JaxBill
Footballguy
Norwich?
Norwich didn't make the list because it's only 27k. But still 10k more than Brentford as you'll see this afternoon.
Jaysus
Good times!
B Maverick
Footballguy
How many of us would have the guts to do that? Even as kids...
Props to him!
El Floppo
Footballguy
Are you saying they don't show the games, or that what they show sucks?Nah, I said it was the worst to watch on TV. There is a team in my home market that I could not even watch on television
