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Phil Ivey wins $12M; Casino claims cheating/exploiting, won't (1 Viewer)

NewlyRetired

NewlyRetired

Footballguy
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/the-turnstile/phil-ivey-british-casino-embroiled-dispute-over-payment-032520482.html

Phil Ivey. (Getty Images)

What's the best way to win a game of chance? Turn it into a game of certainty.

That, a British casino is charging, is exactly what world-renowned poker player Phil Ivey did in winning £7.6 million about $11.9 million in one spectacular run of punto banco, a baccarat game. Crockfords is charging that Ivey observed tiny flaws in the game's cards, and used that knowledge to give the house a severe thrashing. As a result, the casino is refusing to pay, and Ivey has filed suit to receive his withheld winnings.

Basically speaking, the idea in punto banco is for the player to draw two or three cards with a sum total closer to nine than the dealer. At the game last August played at Crockfords' casino in Mayfair, London, Ivey and an unidentified woman were playing alone against the dealer, in full view of 10 casino cameras. Ivey started his betting at £50,000 (about $77,000) per hand, and later raised that, with the casino's blessing, to £150,000 (about $230,000) per hand. As in blackjack, punto banco hands can be over in less than a minute. It's a game that's supposed to be entirely based on the luck of the draw.

Over the course of three nights, Ivey and his companion dipped as low as £500,000 ($770,000) in the red, but ended up with a substantial sum. The casino's theory: that Ivey had spotted tiny imperfections in the cards' designs, and used that knowledge to help identify when certain cards would be on the table, even when face-down.

Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play. A player in such a case could know in advance that the cards were defects, or could notice it in the course of play.

"I was given a receipt for my winnings, but Crockfords has withheld payment," Ivey said in a statement. "I have no alternative but to take legal action." Shortly after completing play, the casino held Ivey's winnings, returning only his initial £1 million stake.

Lance Bradley of Bluff Magazine told ABC News last fall that Ivey has a sterling reputation. "There's nothing in his past that would hint at his being a cheater or unethical in any way," Bradley said. "People say he's arguably the best poker player in the world; but, really, there's no argument: He's number one. He's known both for his skill and for his love of high-stakes games. He loves anything where there's some sexiness at stake."

Crockfords, meanwhile, has pledged to defend its decision. The casino is now having tapes of the night scrutinized by specialists in fraud prevention.
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The casino is absolutely right here, and Ivey should be ashamed of himself for exploiting the house's mistake. After all, it's not like casinos take money from people who play drunk or stupidly, so why shouldn't the casino get a break here when it screws up?

 
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.

 
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
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I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.

 
In every sport or game you try to exploit the weakness of your opponent. Ivey never touched a card before the dealer...just played the hand that was dealt him.

 
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What a joke. Ivey will get what he is owed.Its been a while since I've been to a casino but in what world do they allow a hand to be dealt before you can bet?Baccarat is a game of chance, I've played at least a thousand live hands and NOT ONCE have they ever allowed betting after the house and bank cards have been laid. This is complete bull.Edit: And then I realized there are always two down cards, ffs I need sleep.

 
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Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
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Ng?

 
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified. And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
 
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Tremendous Upside said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
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Ng?
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Evelyn Ng was his "companion" and was active in getting the cards sorted for superstitous reasons. She was already banned from the casino, among many others in Europe. Most edge seekers will find a whale to front for them and signal how to play. They later split the profits and the whale acts as a buffer from the edge seeker getting ousted. My guesss is that Ivey already paid her her cut and now is eating the loss. He won't see any of the money.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
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It can be. But I doubt with even a couple decks you could push your edge above 50%. Baccarat is a true game of chance.

 
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I hope he hears and gets nothing but stone cold dead silence for a year, then the owner of the casino can grant an interview because "he feels the time is right for Ivey to get an explanation", at which time the owner claims "I don't know" to everything. Then the casino tries to find somebody else to pay him his money, and pats themselves on the back about how hard they are working on it. In the meantime, all the casino owners rent Lear Jets to fly around the world and have lavish parties, all on Phil's money.
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from Reddit

 
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.

 
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
If she was banned and then came back under some sort of disguise then I think the casino has a leg to stand on for her, but with Ivey I don't see it. They should give him the money and tell him never to step foot on one of their properties again.
 
Short Corner said:
Run It Up said:
NewlyRetired said:
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It can be. But I doubt with even a couple decks you could push your edge above 50%. Baccarat is a true game of chance.
Click to expand...
By edge sorting you can get a player edge of around 10%
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So I just spent 5 minutes reading about edge sorting. Does this casino not have shuffling machines at the highstakes table? Really?

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The casino is absolutely right here, and Ivey should be ashamed of himself for exploiting the house's mistake. After all, it's not like casinos take money from people who play drunk or stupidly, so why shouldn't the casino get a break here when it screws up?
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What?! I once lost 65 cents playing nickel slots drunk and stupidly. I was fortunate my wife dragged me away before our trip was ruined. The casino couldn't care less, I'll tell you that.

 
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.
Click to expand...
Why not? I have no problem with a casino spotting a banned player and free rolling them.

 
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.
Click to expand...
Why not? I have no problem with a casino spotting a banned player and free rolling them.
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The ultimate angle shoot.Let it ride, house takes all the winnings and if the player runs hot just pull the plug and say she was banned.

 
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it.

How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.

 
Run It Up said:
Short Corner said:
Run It Up said:
NewlyRetired said:
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.

And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It can be. But I doubt with even a couple decks you could push your edge above 50%. Baccarat is a true game of chance.
Click to expand...
By edge sorting you can get a player edge of around 10%
Click to expand...
So I just spent 5 minutes reading about edge sorting. Does this casino not have shuffling machines at the highstakes table? Really?
Click to expand...
It doesn't appear to have anything to do with hand shuffling vs. automatic.

Every shuffle, whether it’s from a single deck, double deck, or shoe, should include a turn. Likewise, any game that uses an automatic shuffler should include a manual turn between rounds. The equipment being used wasn’t the problem – it was the procedure for using the equipment that was flawed.
Click to expand...
 
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Run It Up said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.
Click to expand...
Why not? I have no problem with a casino spotting a banned player and free rolling them.
Click to expand...
The ultimate angle shoot.Let it ride, house takes all the winnings and if the player runs hot just pull the plug and say she was banned.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was thinking. If the house does recognize her, it lets her play. If she loses, great. If she wins, they refuse to pay her.

 
mr roboto said:
Run It Up said:
Short Corner said:
Run It Up said:
NewlyRetired said:
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.

And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It can be. But I doubt with even a couple decks you could push your edge above 50%. Baccarat is a true game of chance.
Click to expand...
By edge sorting you can get a player edge of around 10%
Click to expand...
So I just spent 5 minutes reading about edge sorting. Does this casino not have shuffling machines at the highstakes table? Really?
Click to expand...
>>>Every shuffle, whether it’s from a single deck, double deck, or shoe, should include a turn. Likewise, any game that uses an automatic shuffler should include a manual turn between rounds. The equipment being used wasn’t the problem – it was the procedure for using the equipment that was flawed.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
That was the article I read, I'm trying to understand how a turn doesn't just obliterate this angle immediately, is the process not random? The shufflers I've been intimate with are randomized to do a random number of turns after a random number of shuffles. Granted this was a new casino, but still shufflers are leased not owned its absolutely the casinos fault for not having good shufflers.

 
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Sweet J said:
Run It Up said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.
Click to expand...
Why not? I have no problem with a casino spotting a banned player and free rolling them.
Click to expand...
The ultimate angle shoot.Let it ride, house takes all the winnings and if the player runs hot just pull the plug and say she was banned.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was thinking. If the house does recognize her, it lets her play. If she loses, great. If she wins, they refuse to pay her.
Click to expand...
The old Nicky Santoro play."If he won, he collected, if he lost, he told the bookies to go #### themselves."
 
pantherclub said:
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it.

How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.
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The marks weren't made. They were design flaws inherant to the cards themselves. Skewed printed designs on the backs of the cards. As for how he spotted them, he's a professional gambler. It's what he does for a living.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This part rings false to me. It is hard enough to believe a casino would be using defective cards in a high stakes game to begin with. To suggest that the player asked them to continue using the same cards over 3 days and they agreed to raise his limit to $230k per hand but did not notice the card defect themselves, is not a credible story.
 
TxBuckeye said:
pantherclub said:
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it.

How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.
Click to expand...
The marks weren't made. They were design flaws inherant to the cards themselves. Skewed printed designs on the backs of the cards. As for how he spotted them, he's a professional gambler. It's what he does for a living.
Click to expand...
From what I read, they specifically requested a Korean (I believe) speaking dealer so that Ivey's companion could speak to the dealer without those around being able to listen/understanding what was being said to the dealer. Ivey's companion then request that all the 7, 8, and 9s be turned for superstitious reasons because in the game they were playing 7, 8, and 9s are the top starting cards. Then they requested that the cards be machine shuffled so that the turned cards would stay turned. That allowed Ivey the ability to determine whether the first card being dealt was a 7, 8, or 9 and he changed his bet accordingly. Seems a bit far fetched from the Casino's standpoint.

 
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CletiusMaximus said:
NewlyRetired said:
Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This part rings false to me. It is hard enough to believe a casino would be using defective cards in a high stakes game to begin with. To suggest that the player asked them to continue using the same cards over 3 days and they agreed to raise his limit to $230k per hand but did not notice the card defect themselves, is not a credible story.
Click to expand...
A lot of casinos use this card design. The cards are all the same on the backs but look different if turned 180 degrees. You can't just walk up and read them from the back until they have been sorted.

 
Snotbubbles said:
TxBuckeye said:
pantherclub said:
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it. How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.
Click to expand...
The marks weren't made. They were design flaws inherant to the cards themselves. Skewed printed designs on the backs of the cards. As for how he spotted them, he's a professional gambler. It's what he does for a living.
Click to expand...
From what I read, they specifically requested a Korean (I believe) speaking dealer so that Ivey's companion could speak to the dealer without those around being able to listen/understanding what was being said to the dealer. Ivey's companion then request that all the 7, 8, and 9s be turned for superstitious reasons because in the game they were playing 7, 8, and 9s are the top starting cards. Then they requested that the cards be machine shuffled so that the turned cards would stay turned. That allowed Ivey the ability to determine whether the first card being dealt was a 7, 8, or 9 and he changed his bet accordingly. Seems a bit far fetched from the Casino's standpoint.
Click to expand...
Interesting. A lot of things had to go right in that situation. And how dumb is the casino if they agree to requests being made by a professional gambler and his known card-counting friend?
 
Snotbubbles said:
TxBuckeye said:
pantherclub said:
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it.

How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.
Click to expand...
The marks weren't made. They were design flaws inherant to the cards themselves. Skewed printed designs on the backs of the cards. As for how he spotted them, he's a professional gambler. It's what he does for a living.
Click to expand...
From what I read, they specifically requested a Korean (I believe) speaking dealer so that Ivey's companion could speak to the dealer without those around being able to listen/understanding what was being said to the dealer. Ivey's companion then request that all the 7, 8, and 9s be turned for superstitious reasons because in the game they were playing 7, 8, and 9s are the top starting cards. Then they requested that the cards be machine shuffled so that the turned cards would stay turned. That allowed Ivey the ability to determine whether the first card being dealt was a 7, 8, or 9 and he changed his bet accordingly. Seems a bit far fetched from the Casino's standpoint.
Click to expand...
turned?

 
If you bend the corner of a card, you can totally use this to your advantage. I pretty much beat my 6 yo kid everytime in Old Maid. I suspect Ivey is doing something similar.

 
Short Corner said:
CletiusMaximus said:
NewlyRetired said:
Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This part rings false to me. It is hard enough to believe a casino would be using defective cards in a high stakes game to begin with. To suggest that the player asked them to continue using the same cards over 3 days and they agreed to raise his limit to $230k per hand but did not notice the card defect themselves, is not a credible story.
Click to expand...
A lot of casinos use this card design. The cards are all the same on the backs but look different if turned 180 degrees. You can't just walk up and read them from the back until they have been sorted.
Click to expand...
I can't believe any casino falls for this. When I was like 8, I got some cheap novelty book of 'Magic Tricks to Fool Your Friends', and one of them was "Get a lattice-pattern deck of cards. Have someone pick one, while they're looking at it, turn the deck around in your hand and have them put the card back in anywhere. Now you can find it by looking for the one with the pattern that doesn't match the others."

To think that a casino would be totally unaware of this flaw in the design is ridiculous to me.

 
Sarnoff said:
Short Corner said:
CletiusMaximus said:
NewlyRetired said:
Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This part rings false to me. It is hard enough to believe a casino would be using defective cards in a high stakes game to begin with. To suggest that the player asked them to continue using the same cards over 3 days and they agreed to raise his limit to $230k per hand but did not notice the card defect themselves, is not a credible story.
Click to expand...
A lot of casinos use this card design. The cards are all the same on the backs but look different if turned 180 degrees. You can't just walk up and read them from the back until they have been sorted.
Click to expand...
I can't believe any casino falls for this. When I was like 8, I got some cheap novelty book of 'Magic Tricks to Fool Your Friends', and one of them was "Get a lattice-pattern deck of cards. Have someone pick one, while they're looking at it, turn the deck around in your hand and have them put the card back in anywhere. Now you can find it by looking for the one with the pattern that doesn't match the others."

To think that a casino would be totally unaware of this flaw in the design is ridiculous to me.
Click to expand...
This is the part I'm still trying to figure out, I've literally never seen a seen a shuffler in a casino outside of some BnMs that didn't turn a part of the deck. Or at the very least weren't hand turned by the dealer.Edit: I say this and yet I can't find a single video of what I'm talking about.

 
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So even if everything the casino said is true, how is Ivey not due his money? The dealers agreed to the requests he made and if they had an issue they should have just kicked him out.

 
Sarnoff said:
Short Corner said:
CletiusMaximus said:
NewlyRetired said:
Cards are supposed to be marked symmetrically, but a possible manufacturing defect may have left the cards asymmetrical and, thus, identifiable from the back. In addition, the cards should be disposed of after each day's play, but Ivey apparently managed to convince the casino to keep the cards in play.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This part rings false to me. It is hard enough to believe a casino would be using defective cards in a high stakes game to begin with. To suggest that the player asked them to continue using the same cards over 3 days and they agreed to raise his limit to $230k per hand but did not notice the card defect themselves, is not a credible story.
Click to expand...
A lot of casinos use this card design. The cards are all the same on the backs but look different if turned 180 degrees. You can't just walk up and read them from the back until they have been sorted.
Click to expand...
I can't believe any casino falls for this. When I was like 8, I got some cheap novelty book of 'Magic Tricks to Fool Your Friends', and one of them was "Get a lattice-pattern deck of cards. Have someone pick one, while they're looking at it, turn the deck around in your hand and have them put the card back in anywhere. Now you can find it by looking for the one with the pattern that doesn't match the others."

To think that a casino would be totally unaware of this flaw in the design is ridiculous to me.
Click to expand...
what makes you think they are unaware?

 
Run It Up said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
Short Corner said:
NewlyRetired said:
Short Corner said:
GroveDiesel said:
If the casino agreed to his request to keep the cards in play, I don't see how they have a leg to stand on. Ridiculous. Even if he did notice flaws in the cards, I'm not aware that it's actually illegal in any way.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was illegal, but the presence of Ng may nullify any winnings. A card counter keeps their winnings and is usually banned. If they return the casino will confiscate their winnings if caught.
Click to expand...
Has it been confirmed that the woman with Ivey was Evelyn Ng? Article just said she was unidentified.And this game is not affected by card counting is it?
Click to expand...
It has been speculated that it was Ng. the casino has not given the actual identity but they did say the person in question had been previously banned.
Click to expand...
So they let her play a high stakes game for 3 days even though she was banned? Was she wearing one of those disguises made up of plastic glasses, a fake nose and mustache or something? Seems doubtful.
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Why not? I have no problem with a casino spotting a banned player and free rolling them.
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The ultimate angle shoot.Let it ride, house takes all the winnings and if the player runs hot just pull the plug and say she was banned.
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:goodposting:

My first thought too when I read this. Shrewd move if true.

 
Snotbubbles said:
TxBuckeye said:
pantherclub said:
Could someone break this down for me and pretend I am in the 5th grade while doing it.

How was Ivey smart enough to pick up the marks? How did the markings get made? Something seems missing from the story.
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The marks weren't made. They were design flaws inherant to the cards themselves. Skewed printed designs on the backs of the cards. As for how he spotted them, he's a professional gambler. It's what he does for a living.
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From what I read, they specifically requested a Korean (I believe) speaking dealer so that Ivey's companion could speak to the dealer without those around being able to listen/understanding what was being said to the dealer. Ivey's companion then request that all the 7, 8, and 9s be turned for superstitious reasons because in the game they were playing 7, 8, and 9s are the top starting cards. Then they requested that the cards be machine shuffled so that the turned cards would stay turned. That allowed Ivey the ability to determine whether the first card being dealt was a 7, 8, or 9 and he changed his bet accordingly. Seems a bit far fetched from the Casino's standpoint.
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####### that's brilliant.

 
I have a different impression of the story because I first heard about it as a casino not having the funds to give Ivey his winnings. This idea the casino has of him cheating came up later. Could be the casino making excuses...

 
17seconds said:
I have a different impression of the story because I first heard about it as a casino not having the funds to give Ivey his winnings. This idea the casino has of him cheating came up later. Could be the casino making excuses...
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This seems to be the most likely explanation. The casino surely knew what was happening, took the risk and lost, and are taking this position to negotiate a lower payout.
 
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