Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Zac Stacy vs Tre Mason (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ShaHBucks
- Start date
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
I'll take Mason after this season.......by a good margin.
For the record, I don't own either.
For the record, I don't own either.
Last edited by a moderator:
jurb26
Footballguy
I voted for Stacy in redraft but feel like I should have voted for both. St. L could have one of the best running games in the NFL next year. Their oline will be very good, particularly in run blocking. I think they might be capable of supporting 2 solid fantasy RBs.
For dynasty I like Mason. I think he's the better overall talent.
For dynasty I like Mason. I think he's the better overall talent.
BuzzCagney
Footballguy
Stacy. Both Dynasty and Redraft. And it's not even close.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
tone1oc
Footballguy
250 carries over 14 games (18 per) is hardly limited playing time. A lot of people (myself included) believe he is a product of volume.
jurb26
Footballguy
Top 30, much more than that is pushing it.
cstu
Footballguy
Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
Stacy in both. Until Mason proves he can be useful in pass pro, his field time is limited. He would have to be a serious home-run hitter to be worth the investment on the limited opportunities he is bound to see.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Stacy decisively leading in redraft as expected.
Surprised Mason is destroying him (and the "both" option) in dynasty.
He is my preference, but I thought it would be a more even distribution.
Stacy is listed at 5'9", 216 lbs., Mason 5'8", 207 lbs.
* Stacy's rushing numbers against the NFC West
ARI - only 1 carry (didn't start until fifth game)
SF - 0 carries (see above)
SEA - 26-134-0 (great game, Bradford was done for the season the week before against CAR)
SF - 19-72-0 (bit less than 4.0 YPC average, as was his season average, 49ers do have a stout defense)
ARI - 14-25-1 (not too good, he did have his 1 rushing TD within the division)
SEA - 15-15-0 (LT Jake Long tore his ACL the previous game?)
Four starts within the division.
Cumulative 74-246-1 (basically 3 YPC, that was with the first SEA game in which he was over 5 YPC, in the other three, it was 48-112-1 for a 2.33 YPC average).
In the eight non-division games...
IND - 2.38 YPC (26-62-1)
CAR -3.12 YPC (17-53-0)
TB - 3.15 YPC (33-104-1)
HOU - 4.39 YPC (18-79-0)
TEN - 4.70 YPC (27-127-2)
NO - 4.75 YPC (28-133-1)
JAX - 5.57 YPC (14-78-0)
CHI - 7.25 YPC (12-87-1) the "Ethel Merman" game
, played about a half, got dinged, backup Cunningham also had 100 yards.
Did he hit the proverbial rookie wall?
CAR was the only game in his first five starts in which he was under 4 YPC.
In his next/last seven starts, CHI and NO were the only games in which he was over 4 YPC.
Maybe he can be more effective in the middle and end of the season if Mason spells him more frequently?
In a trend going in the opposite direction, he had no TDs in his first four starts (the first three of which were with Bradford, who had 14 passing TDs in seven games), all 7 rushing TDs were in the last eight games (STL shifted to a run heavy attack, with a lot of 3TE formations when Clemens started the last nine weeks, in which he had 8 passing TDs).
Stacy had three noteworthy games receiving, 4-34-1 (his one receiving TD as a rookie) against CAR, 6-51-0 against TEN and 4-23-0 against SEA.
Whoever runs behind the STL OL (and it will probably be both of them at first unless one looks decisively better and takes command of the RBBC) will have a few advantages. Saffold was retained and it wasn't until during the 2013 season that the Rams discovered guard was his best position (previously played LT and RT), so health permitting, he will begin the season there. He may have to cover Jake Long for a few weeks to a month depending on where he is at with rehab on the torn ACL suffered in week 16 last year.
They also added #2 overall, blue chip LT prospect Greg Robinson, who looks like one of the most dominant run blockers in recent memory. Like Willie Roaf and Jonathan Ogden, he will begin his career inside at guard (STL already has Long, and he needs work on his pass protection).
Surprised Mason is destroying him (and the "both" option) in dynasty.
He is my preference, but I thought it would be a more even distribution.
Stacy is listed at 5'9", 216 lbs., Mason 5'8", 207 lbs.
* Stacy's rushing numbers against the NFC West
ARI - only 1 carry (didn't start until fifth game)
SF - 0 carries (see above)
SEA - 26-134-0 (great game, Bradford was done for the season the week before against CAR)
SF - 19-72-0 (bit less than 4.0 YPC average, as was his season average, 49ers do have a stout defense)
ARI - 14-25-1 (not too good, he did have his 1 rushing TD within the division)
SEA - 15-15-0 (LT Jake Long tore his ACL the previous game?)
Four starts within the division.
Cumulative 74-246-1 (basically 3 YPC, that was with the first SEA game in which he was over 5 YPC, in the other three, it was 48-112-1 for a 2.33 YPC average).
In the eight non-division games...
IND - 2.38 YPC (26-62-1)
CAR -3.12 YPC (17-53-0)
TB - 3.15 YPC (33-104-1)
HOU - 4.39 YPC (18-79-0)
TEN - 4.70 YPC (27-127-2)
NO - 4.75 YPC (28-133-1)
JAX - 5.57 YPC (14-78-0)
CHI - 7.25 YPC (12-87-1) the "Ethel Merman" game
, played about a half, got dinged, backup Cunningham also had 100 yards.Did he hit the proverbial rookie wall?
CAR was the only game in his first five starts in which he was under 4 YPC.
In his next/last seven starts, CHI and NO were the only games in which he was over 4 YPC.
Maybe he can be more effective in the middle and end of the season if Mason spells him more frequently?
In a trend going in the opposite direction, he had no TDs in his first four starts (the first three of which were with Bradford, who had 14 passing TDs in seven games), all 7 rushing TDs were in the last eight games (STL shifted to a run heavy attack, with a lot of 3TE formations when Clemens started the last nine weeks, in which he had 8 passing TDs).
Stacy had three noteworthy games receiving, 4-34-1 (his one receiving TD as a rookie) against CAR, 6-51-0 against TEN and 4-23-0 against SEA.
Whoever runs behind the STL OL (and it will probably be both of them at first unless one looks decisively better and takes command of the RBBC) will have a few advantages. Saffold was retained and it wasn't until during the 2013 season that the Rams discovered guard was his best position (previously played LT and RT), so health permitting, he will begin the season there. He may have to cover Jake Long for a few weeks to a month depending on where he is at with rehab on the torn ACL suffered in week 16 last year.
They also added #2 overall, blue chip LT prospect Greg Robinson, who looks like one of the most dominant run blockers in recent memory. Like Willie Roaf and Jonathan Ogden, he will begin his career inside at guard (STL already has Long, and he needs work on his pass protection).
As for right now with their current adp i voted mason for both. I like stacy and i think he will do well BUT i feel like the value isnt there right now. It may come down a little after camp but his price is too high right now. I also feel like he got dinged up a lot last year. You can get mason for cheap this year and sit on him for half the year and maybe he takes over maybe not. But he is going cheap. For dynasty i think mason is the better talent but we will have to see him against nfl competition
Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
Bradford. You can do something similar with Bradford about pre-Zac and post-Zac. Stacy did well when there was a play-action competent QB making teams respect the passing game. Not fear... just respect. Kellen Clemens never game them that.
Some of what you said may have come into play, but I think that if you get a full season out of Bradford, Stacy should be able to gash teams behind this revamped O-line.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I tried to include what I could remember off the top of my head about the season that I thought was relevant (which was why I included the Bradford/Clemens splits).
I agree with what you are saying, the million $ question is, can Mason be more efficient gashing the opposition, and if so, will that lead to an inexorable tectonic shift in the STL depth chart and their respective dynasty fortunes?
Robinson will get tested in pass pro. He lunges at times (needs to stay square, centered and balanced over his feet), and has appallingly bad hand technique, needs to be more disciplined.
As far as run blocking, as alluded to above, in almost every aspect he is a phenom and a prodigy. Not just technically, but in terms of temperment (he seems to genuinely enjoy it), conditioning (looks like he can run all day), he moves like a cat on downfield second and third level LB and DB targets (may have unprecedented athleticism for his position, he reportedly could do a standing backflip as a 300+ lb. Freshman at Auburn).
Which is one reason I think they might run a lot this year. Schottenheimer has 2-3 seasons with top 10 rushing finishes, but a constant has been pedestrian passing numbers. Some would say Sanchez and Bradford didn't help his cause. On the flip side, I'm convinced (and so are a lot of people who followed STL), in one passing game-related instance, Schottenheimer showed a decided lack of creativility in finding ways to better position Austin for success early in his rookie campaign. Not a lot of motion designed to spring him with a clean release and quickly get him into space, crossing routes to stress the defense laterally with his quickness, deep routes to unleash his speed, Harvin/Cobb-like carries from the backfield (he had 2 50+ yard TDs on three receptions against IND in addition to the 95 yard punt return, and a 50+ yard run the following week against CHI once they started to figure out how to use him a little better).
I agree that the plan is presumably to have a powerful run game with the potential to set up play action, Austin, Givens and Cook are relatively fast for their positions.
* Not cherry picking divisional stats to make Stacy look bad. But they must do better in the division, where they were best in 2012 (4-1-1) but worst in 2013 (1-5). STL looks stronger on paper, but so do SEA, SF and ARI (especially on offense). They retained their core players for the most part, Harvin and Crabtree should play more, the 49ers added Stevie Johnson, the Cards get top 10 guard Cooper back and they finally added a competent LT (which had been a smoking hole in the ground for years) in free agency with ex-Raider Veldheer. Though on defense for SF, Bowman possibly missing half the season and Aldon Smith expected to receive some form of suspension even if he escapes the worst on the legal front (7-25 sentencing date after pleading no contest to three felony weapons charges) hurts, and ARI may miss Karlos Dansby, who was one of the best LBs in the league last year, before leaving, for the second time.
I agree with what you are saying, the million $ question is, can Mason be more efficient gashing the opposition, and if so, will that lead to an inexorable tectonic shift in the STL depth chart and their respective dynasty fortunes?
Robinson will get tested in pass pro. He lunges at times (needs to stay square, centered and balanced over his feet), and has appallingly bad hand technique, needs to be more disciplined.
As far as run blocking, as alluded to above, in almost every aspect he is a phenom and a prodigy. Not just technically, but in terms of temperment (he seems to genuinely enjoy it), conditioning (looks like he can run all day), he moves like a cat on downfield second and third level LB and DB targets (may have unprecedented athleticism for his position, he reportedly could do a standing backflip as a 300+ lb. Freshman at Auburn).
Which is one reason I think they might run a lot this year. Schottenheimer has 2-3 seasons with top 10 rushing finishes, but a constant has been pedestrian passing numbers. Some would say Sanchez and Bradford didn't help his cause. On the flip side, I'm convinced (and so are a lot of people who followed STL), in one passing game-related instance, Schottenheimer showed a decided lack of creativility in finding ways to better position Austin for success early in his rookie campaign. Not a lot of motion designed to spring him with a clean release and quickly get him into space, crossing routes to stress the defense laterally with his quickness, deep routes to unleash his speed, Harvin/Cobb-like carries from the backfield (he had 2 50+ yard TDs on three receptions against IND in addition to the 95 yard punt return, and a 50+ yard run the following week against CHI once they started to figure out how to use him a little better).
I agree that the plan is presumably to have a powerful run game with the potential to set up play action, Austin, Givens and Cook are relatively fast for their positions.
* Not cherry picking divisional stats to make Stacy look bad. But they must do better in the division, where they were best in 2012 (4-1-1) but worst in 2013 (1-5). STL looks stronger on paper, but so do SEA, SF and ARI (especially on offense). They retained their core players for the most part, Harvin and Crabtree should play more, the 49ers added Stevie Johnson, the Cards get top 10 guard Cooper back and they finally added a competent LT (which had been a smoking hole in the ground for years) in free agency with ex-Raider Veldheer. Though on defense for SF, Bowman possibly missing half the season and Aldon Smith expected to receive some form of suspension even if he escapes the worst on the legal front (7-25 sentencing date after pleading no contest to three felony weapons charges) hurts, and ARI may miss Karlos Dansby, who was one of the best LBs in the league last year, before leaving, for the second time.
Last edited by a moderator:
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
FWIW... Bradford - Week 1
QB Games ATT RYDS YPC RTDs RECs recYDS recTDsBradford 3 16.33 70.00 4.29 0.00 2.00 15.00 0.33Clemens 9 22.22 84.22 3.79 0.78 2.22 10.67 0.00CAR- SEA 2x- TEN- SFO- ARI-TAM all rank in the top half of run defenses according to Y/A. Stacy faced that part of the schedule with Clemens. He had no chance in hell at being highly efficient.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Likely so on the latter, though there were 3TE formations that may not be as prevalent this year, so that will be another change.
The bottom line is, he didn't start a divisional game with Bradford, so his projection is a bit murky, at least by that measure. If the OL is improved that should help him, but it will help Mason, too.
The narrative for some was Stacy had a great season. Maybe he did under the circumstances? But I think for some, it was a great season without need for a qualifier like under the circumstances. When you break it down, it was somewhat up and down (and again, maybe there were identifiable reasons for that). But it is a different narrative to go from, he had a great season (not that you are necessarily doing that here, but some have, and not just at this board), to parts of his up and down season weren't great, but he was doomed to fail in them (as far as the efficiency department).
The bottom line is, he didn't start a divisional game with Bradford, so his projection is a bit murky, at least by that measure. If the OL is improved that should help him, but it will help Mason, too.
The narrative for some was Stacy had a great season. Maybe he did under the circumstances? But I think for some, it was a great season without need for a qualifier like under the circumstances. When you break it down, it was somewhat up and down (and again, maybe there were identifiable reasons for that). But it is a different narrative to go from, he had a great season (not that you are necessarily doing that here, but some have, and not just at this board), to parts of his up and down season weren't great, but he was doomed to fail in them (as far as the efficiency department).
Last edited by a moderator:
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
FWIW, when the Packers drafted RB Brandon Jackson a while back, he was one of the worst pass protectors I had ever seen. The very next season, he had turned himself into one of the best pass protectors at RB I have seen. It was really the reason he got on the field at all, and then was signed by CLE.
Just trying to say, it is something that can be learned. Just like route running for WRs. I certainly wouldn't let it sway your dynasty opinion on Mason.
Just trying to say, it is something that can be learned. Just like route running for WRs. I certainly wouldn't let it sway your dynasty opinion on Mason.
jurb26
Footballguy
Yup. People get way too caught up in what a player needs to work on sometimes. Mason can learn how to block better. It's really not that difficult with NFL coaching. That's why I picked him in dynasty but Stacy in redraft.
BuzzCagney
Footballguy
They are the ones most likely following this situation closely. I would think.
Phenix
Footballguy
Ones most likely just trying to validate their player and not give their real thoughts or opinions. I would think.
I guess you are not familiar with the situation? Stacy had 1 carry in the first four games. So yeah, missing a fourth of the season is limited. He did however have a great volume of touches in the last 12 games, but he was playing for a team with no passing threat.
Personally, this is an easy choice. The odds always strongly favor the guy who has shown he can play well in the NFL. Had Mason graded out as a top 10 pick, then this decision would be very murky. But he didn't. Instead we've got a smaller back who isn't much faster than Stacy, if at all, and already has question marks. If pass blocking is so easy to learn, why didn't David Wilson improve in his second year? I see pass blocking as a secondary issue, though. Until the third rounder shows he can run effectively in the NFL, I'm siding with the guy who has shown he can do it.
Stacy has displayed an ability to force missed tackles and gain yards after contact. Critical elements for an NFL RB. Odds were against him last year, but he's one of the exceptions. Odds are against Mason being able to consistently perform like Stacy, so I'll take the smart odds and bet on Stacy while everyone wets themselves over the rookie... just like every year.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
Bob , thanks, a very compelling argument for both sides of the coin! well thought out answers..you do great work in here, just wanted to give you a fan appreciation :thumbsup:..
talent-wise, Mason blows Stacy's doors off..flip the scenarios, does Stacy play his butt off like Mason did in the Nat'l Championship game last year? no..
Stacy started as a backup to, *cough*, Daryl Richardson..if you can't beat out Daryl Richardson in training camp,you most certainly will not beat out Tre Mason..
in 3 years at Auburn,Mason nearly achieved better stats than what Stacy posted in 4 years at Vandy.
Mason
(att, yards, ypc, TD)
516 2979 5.8 32
Stacy (4 years):
581 3143 5.4 30 I think Mason brings more to the table.a more dynamic runner who seemingly plays his best in BIG games..
Tanner9919 said:
That required two eye rolls:
1) You really comparing Auburn to Vanderbilt? I'm more impressed with a guy averaging 5.4 ypc for Vanderbilt than a guy averaging 5.8 for Auburn.
2) And you are ragging on a 5th round pick for taking 5 weeks to pass the incumbent players for the starting gig? How many 5th round picks are week 1 starter?
Give me a break. I'm sorry your dynasty league has its draft before the NFL draft.
Khy
Footballguy
I think Mason for dynasty... Mason also fits a lot more into the 'prototypical back' style. Stacy to me is just a rambling dump truck. He'll be decent for a bit but he's more or less the size of Jerome Bettis without the speed of the Bus. And Bettis is probably the biggest outlier in NFL history at the position. I wouldn't expect another Bus anytime soon.
Mason comps closer to a LT2 type of guy in terms of his size & speed. Which is a lot more of a 'typical' back build.
Mason comps closer to a LT2 type of guy in terms of his size & speed. Which is a lot more of a 'typical' back build.
Khy
Footballguy
First off... I have Stacy down at 224 not 217. Also, Stacy is 5' 8" where as Bettis was 5' 11". Stacy has a BMI of about 34.1 compared to Bettis 35.1. Sorry, but I look at BMI with a football player not just their weight.
Khy
Footballguy
Jesus, here we go again. Another person that doesn't understand how to read when I simply say "physical comparison". Why don't I think either one will be guys they comp to in size and speed? Because there's a LOT more to a RB than simply that. But between my eye test of both of them and their size/speed combinations I like Mason as a better prospect. I'm not saying either will be Bettis or LT2.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
In the below article* the high school coach of Bettis states he was 230 lbs. as a Freshman or Sophomore. It also notes that while he was listed at 255 at the end of his career in PIT, he was probably closer to 275-280 lbs. (he was bigger than just about any LB he would face, and even many DEs). Pro Football reference lists Stacy at 5'9" 216 lbs., but wikipedia and the Rams list him at 5'8" 224 lbs. Even if he is the latter weight, Bettis was still 50 lbs. or more bigger than Stacy, which would be about the difference between Stacy and Trindon Holliday (listed at 177 lbs.), one of the lightest players in the league. Bettis wasn't remarkably fast, but he had exceptional feet, and it was the combination of that with lineman-like power that made him special.
Tomlinson is listed at 5'10" 221 lbs., his official 40 time was about a 4.46, but he clocked sub-4.4s, he was faster, and I think had more electric open field moves than Mason.
I think we can do better than Bettis or Tomlinson as comps.
* http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/AR2006013001564.html
Tomlinson is listed at 5'10" 221 lbs., his official 40 time was about a 4.46, but he clocked sub-4.4s, he was faster, and I think had more electric open field moves than Mason.
I think we can do better than Bettis or Tomlinson as comps.
* http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/AR2006013001564.html
Last edited by a moderator:
Khy
Footballguy
I think I'll stick to more official sources that Wikipedia and Bettis' high school coach. Thanks though.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I didn't use wikipedia for Bettis, I used two other sources for Stacy. Two of which agreed with yours.
You say you are sticking to the official source, but you never listed the weight of Bettis, what do you think it is? What is the official source you are using? Weights are sometimes understated for fat players. Not to mention weight can fluctuate (especially with a player like Bettis), but "official" sources list just one weight, which may or may not have borne much semblance to Bettis' actual weight. DL "official weights" are notorious for being off by as much as 50 lbs. at times. Do you think Bettis was the same size throughout his career, that he didn't get bigger? Yet there is only one official weight, so it must be right. His weight must have been invariant throughout his career?
Last edited by a moderator:
Khy
Footballguy
Obviously I'm aware that weight fluctuates a lot with players. But the only solid numbers we ever have to go by are what the team lists him at... Bettis was always listed between 251-255 everywhere. So I think I went with 255 cause that seems to be the consensus. But going off pure speculation of his high school coach watching him on a tube TV in his living room in the 90s is a little ridiculous.
Most players play at a weight different from their list. Just like most fighters fight at different than what they weigh in at. Pretty simple and accepted fact with all sports in general. But when crunching numbers we need hard facts not "Ehhh, he's listed at 252 but he looks huge I'll say he's 280 in reality". If a scale isn't telling me numbers I don't really care to believe it. I'll stick with the factual numbers, even if they weren't their 'true' playing weight. It's usually what they'd show up to camp/combine at, so that's good enough for me.
Benchwarmers
Footballguy
The Rams are going to run the ball alot this year. Stacy this year will get 60/40 split. 2015 it could be reversed or even more in Mason's favor. Stacy was a 5th round. He was good not great last year. Mason will show stuff Stacy can't do. I would own both but as a RB3/RB4 spot in dynasty. If your a Stacy owner and don't get Mason in the rookie drafts think about trading him midway through this season when his value should be pretty high. Do it before Mason shows something.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
Not necessarily. I don't own either. I just really like Mason as a prospect. Plus, he's Plug 3's son. I love De La.Phenix said:
BuzzCagney
Footballguy
Stacy has shown himself capable in the NFL. Mason has not. Don't you think?Phenix said:
cstu
Footballguy
Couldn't you say the exact same thing for every veteran player when their team drafts a rookie?
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
I always came up with a little slower Rice/MJD physically -- compact, sturdy RB with great cutback ability/agility, good hands and high effort. It shows in the numbers and on tape. Visually he's what everyone thought of Mark Ingram (aside from draft pedigree I guess).
Last edited by a moderator:
5Rings
Lurker
Did not know that! Thanks SD.
I don't think Stacey showed anything special last year and is in the lower echelon of starting backs. I'm not a scout like many of you who hand time 40s in their living room, but Mason looked amazing last year vs top tier competition. I'm buying mason where I can.
BuzzCagney
Footballguy
Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
Phenix said:
Or, it could be the other way around. There is a slight, slight chance that people have bought into Stacy or Mason based on their observations rather than basing their observations on the fact that they own one or the other.Phenix said:
Slight.
Khy
Footballguy
I mean... that's typically how I do things in my dynasty leagues. I'll usually talk about guys that I'm either targeting in rookie drafts or already drafted. For example, I was seen a lot around the Keenan Allen, Andre Ellington, Davis Wilson Bandwagon threads last season. This season, you'll likely see me popping up in the Teddy Bridgewater & Ka'Deem Carey threads and possibly the Eric Ebron threads cause I somehow keep getting stuck with him as my BPA when I'm not a big fan. So yeah, in the case of Ebron, I'll probably be trying to talk him up just to justify a pick that I'm not all that fond of to myself
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
