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2018 NCAA Tournament/Shtick Thread: TBS cameraman focused on crying kid who just happens to be up too late (1 Viewer)

Tom Servo said:
13 years ago today, Illinois comes back on AZ to go to the Final 4. 
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Although I didn't have a dog in the fight, still one of the best sporting events I've ever attended in person.

In the previous round, Arizona knocked out OKSt. in a great game and Illinois beat UW-Milwaukee.  Bruce Weber, a UW-Milwaukee alum coached Illinois against Bruce Pearl, who moved from UW-Milwaukee to Tennessee a few days after the game.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I don't think 14 years' worth of tournaments with an average of maybe 6-8 teams per season is necessarily all that small of a sample size. Over one season, sure, but not over 14 seasons. Obviously it's still not perfect, but the fact is that the bulk of inter-conference clashes among quality teams playing at full strength happen in the postseason, so that's the best data we've got. And the best data we've got suggests that the Big XII is a pretty weak major conference. I mean do you really think they'd pull off that run in any other major conference? OK, maybe the PAC-12 ;)
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I was thinking the Big XII was strong relative to the 33 conferences in Division I.  Now that you've added the modifier "major" you weren't using before, your earlier statements make more sense.  

I don't know if KU could have pulled off their run in the other majors.  Are they swapping places with another powerhouse?  Do they get to play an unbalanced schedule?  Do losses that were later vacated get thrown out?  Of course It's unlikely that KU would run off 14 titles in a row.  It's unlikely that they did in the conference they are in now.

TobiasFunke said:
And I'm not sure the examples you cite help your cause. After all it looks like KU only kept its streak going in 2009 because of a Griffin concussion, which kinda makes it less impressive, not more. And while it's true that it's not KU's fault that Missouri's one apparent contender-caliber team lost just like it's not UNC's fault when a good Duke team loses, Duke's first round choke jobs are preceded by and follow Final Fours and national titles. Just more evidence that while the tournament is a way too small sample size over one year, having only one other Final Four team and a handful of non-KU Elite 8 teams over those 14 seasons is relevant data.
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Now we're getting into the weeds of what makes a conference strong or weak.  Best to have that discussion in another thread at another time.  I'll just say it's frustrating hearing low-level thinkers continue to drone on about "the Big XII isn't any good because Kansas wins it every year" or "Kansas doesn't deserve their high seed because they don't play anybody" when the data tells us this isn't true.  And LOL about recruiting advantages.  They're an adidas school, which sets them behind preferred brands Nike and UA.  The football team sucks.  There’s maybe one top 100 recruit per year within 250 miles.  And the school is in the middle of Kansas.  Given how much snobbery you've displayed towards Syracuse, I can't imagine how difficult it is for you to not share how you really feel about Lawrence.   

TobiasFunke said:
Anyway, like I said it's still ridiculously impressive. It's just that to me the most impressive thing isn't so much the great teams they bested on the way. It's the fact that they never ever had a down year. Both sides of that are improbable, but to me the latter is the really crazy part.
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The latter part, which I noticed you were quick to acknowledge, is the one most folks miss in the discussion.  Like you said, UK and UNC had NIT teams during this streak.  So have UCLA and UConn.  Duke has had a couple unremarkable seasons along the way.  Sparty had a few .500 conference seasons with early NCAA exits.  Florida had two NIT seasons after their back-to-back titles.  Nova had a couple 9-seeds and an NIT bid before this amazing five-year run they are on.  

I'm not saying I'd rather have a conference regular season title than another form of a title.  Of course I wish they made more Final Fours and the opportunities blown there sting a little.  But the program has produced what it's produced.  I wish Kansas was on a 14-year national championship unbeaten streak. But if they were successful at that level, there would be naysayers saying the competition wasn't that good. Like how people denigrate UCLA's reign under Wooden.  

TobiasFunke said:
Congrats, by the way. Amazing job by Self this year, gotta be his best effort yet.
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It's certainly up there.  Big XII was the top conference by a mile in the Sagarin ratings this season, so it was fun seeing this club slog through 20 games against NCAA Tournament teams and get nine road/neutral Quadrant I wins.  Over the years, it's been interesting seeing how Self adjusts recruiting, roster construction, game preparation, etc.  Recently he's addressed the high number of turnovers the team has committed on offense by recruiting better floor generals and worrying less about pounding it inside.  He's aware the short turnaround for the second game of an NCAA Tournament weekend exposes a weakness of his preference to have 2-3 days to prepare for a game.  Not that this year's edition specifically addressed that - they just played through their lack of depth and caught a couple breaks on Sunday. 

Curious how next season goes.  While other powerhouses battle over the one-and-dones, KU has been stockpiling transfers.  It's one of the reasons why this season's bench was so shallow - they started the year with four scholarship players ineligible while waiting out their transfer period.  I don't expect all of them to break out like Malik Newman did after sitting out his transfer year, but adding a few 20-21 year olds who practiced with the team for a year is a bit different than relying on 18-year-olds who were in high school last year.  

The whole season has been a blast in this neck of the woods.  Wichita State handled the jump up to the AAC pretty well.  The school will draw more out-of-state applicants with more exposure in Houston, DFW, and Tulsa, and the program doesn't have to rely on the conference tournament to get a bid with programs like Cincinnati and UConn on the conference schedule now.  They will get better OOC games from this, too.  Kansas State's improbable run to the Elite 8 was fun, even with most of the heavy lifting done by UMBC.  K-State has their top seven scorers returning, so their fans will have more fun filling the time between bowl season and spring practice next winter. 

And this Loyola-Chicago Final Four bid is just nuts.  Blue Valley Northwest isn't exactly Oak Hill, Brewster Academy, or DeMatha.  It's a rather typical suburban high school in the middle of a big suburban area in the middle of the country.  They're a local powerhouse, but mainly play a local schedule.  But wow, watching Custer and Richardson celebrate after their win on Saturday not just as teammates, but as longtime friends, was really special.     

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REKLC3s30Mw

Pretty nice job by Pitt grabbing Capel, just for the recruiting alone. That's a good hire even if he strictly adheres to the Leonard Hamilton School of In-Game Coaching.
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Yeah, that’s a good get for Pitt.  Capel will come in ready to do the recruiting and Program CEO stuff right away.  Maybe his X/O has improved over time and/or he adds a good tactician to his staff. 

 
It may be more prevalent than I realize, but wouldn't basketball teams benefit from having one coach focus on offense and another coach on defense (kind of like coordinators in football)?  I know Michigan has done just that and it seems to have paid off immensely.  Heck even a head coach hiring one of each just like a football staff could work.  Again, it may already be in place to some degree, but I don't see why it hasn't become a more known/official thing.

 
Jayrod said:
It may be more prevalent than I realize, but wouldn't basketball teams benefit from having one coach focus on offense and another coach on defense (kind of like coordinators in football)?  I know Michigan has done just that and it seems to have paid off immensely.  Heck even a head coach hiring one of each just like a football staff could work.  Again, it may already be in place to some degree, but I don't see why it hasn't become a more known/official thing.
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It's an interesting idea, and I'm betting some schools have specific assistant coaches that focus one way or the other. But obviously they'd have to be much more integrated and subservient to the head coach's vision than in football. Otherwise their self-interest would conflict in ways you don't see in football: eg an offensive coordinator would want to team to hit the offensive boards, resulting in higher PPP numbers which makes him look good, while the defensive coordinator would want the team to hustle back to deter easy transition baskets, resulting in lower opponent PPP numbers which makes him look good.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
It's an interesting idea, and I'm betting some schools have specific assistant coaches that focus one way or the other. But obviously they'd have to be much more integrated and subservient to the head coach's vision than in football. Otherwise their self-interest would conflict in ways you don't see in football: eg an offensive coordinator would want to team to hit the offensive boards, resulting in higher PPP numbers which makes him look good, while the defensive coordinator would want the team to hustle back to deter easy transition baskets, resulting in lower opponent PPP numbers which makes him look good.
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Good point.  Maybe they focus more on 1/2 court offense and defense and then add a 3rd "special teams" type coach that focuses on rebounding and transition O & D.

 
Jayrod said:
Good point.  Maybe they focus more on 1/2 court offense and defense and then add a 3rd "special teams" type coach that focuses on rebounding and transition O & D.
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Or just put the ball in the basket more than the opponents.  :D

 
Jayrod said:
It may be more prevalent than I realize, but wouldn't basketball teams benefit from having one coach focus on offense and another coach on defense (kind of like coordinators in football)?  I know Michigan has done just that and it seems to have paid off immensely.  Heck even a head coach hiring one of each just like a football staff could work.  Again, it may already be in place to some degree, but I don't see why it hasn't become a more known/official thing.
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Much more common in NBA than college.  Tom Thibodeau became famous as the de facto defensive coordinator for the 2008 Celtics.  Tex Winter was Phil Jackson’s offensive coordinator for most of the years Jackson spent running benches.  

College basketball staffs are more likely to borrow the position coach concept from football, having one assistant working with the 4s and 5s during practice and another nudging the perimeter guys while the head coach runs whole-team drills. 

Closest most basketball staffs have to a special teams coach is having one assistant in charge of shooting: working with each player on their free throw routine and targeting, fixing flaws in jump shot form, stuff like that.

 
TobiasFunke said:
It's an interesting idea, and I'm betting some schools have specific assistant coaches that focus one way or the other. But obviously they'd have to be much more integrated and subservient to the head coach's vision than in football. Otherwise their self-interest would conflict in ways you don't see in football: eg an offensive coordinator would want to team to hit the offensive boards, resulting in higher PPP numbers which makes him look good, while the defensive coordinator would want the team to hustle back to deter easy transition baskets, resulting in lower opponent PPP numbers which makes him look good.
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This works well for MI because Beilein has always been an offensive coach. He has a specific offensive system. (And, to your point, he has always sacrificed offensive rebounding for transition D). 

So he brought in a defensive coordinator and doesn't have to worry about the conflicts of interest because ... well, its his offense.

 
Encourage folks to read up a bit on the last Loyola team to make the Final Four, the 1963 Ramblers that won the national title.  IMO they were more important in the civil rights battle than the Texas Western team that won the title in 1966.  Loyola's regional semifinal against Mississippi State almost didn't happen - the Bulldogs defied a court order barring them from playing against integrated teams, and had to sneak out of the state to travel to Michigan State to play in regionals against Loyola and their four black starters.   

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Encourage folks to read up a bit on the last Loyola team to make the Final Four, the 1963 Ramblers that won the national title.  IMO they were more important in the civil rights battle than the Texas Western team that won the title in 1966.  Loyola's regional semifinal against Mississippi State almost didn't happen - the Bulldogs defied a court order barring them from playing against integrated teams, and had to sneak out of the state to travel to Michigan State to play in regionals against Loyola and their four black starters.   
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I think Texas Western is more-remembered for, in part, because of who they beat. Also, the dominoes were tumbling faster and faster in '66 so it's easier to attach Charles Scott going to UNC to TW since it happened so soon afterwards. That's to take nothing away from Haskin's team, who deserve every accolade. Just that the "Game Of Change" kind of got buried behind them.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I think Texas Western is more-remembered for, in part, because of who they beat. Also, the dominoes were tumbling faster and faster in '66 so it's easier to attach Charles Scott going to UNC to TW since it happened so soon afterwards. That's to take nothing away from Haskin's team, who deserve every accolade. Just that the "Game Of Change" kind of got buried behind them.
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Well said. 

The gentlemen’s agreement at the time at northern schools was the quota “two on the road, three at home, four when behind”.  Loyola broke that mold with four black starters, but it wasn’t as striking as Texas Western’s all-black starting five against all-white Kentucky from the all-white SEC.

One thing that bugged me about “Glory Road” was that fabricated Haskins speech about switching to five black starters against Kentucky for political reasons.  Haskins and the players all say the starting five that night was chosen for basketball reasons: “Rump’s Runts” were an undersized starting five that relied on speed and spacing, Haskins expected Rupp to call a 1-3-1 zone trap, so Haskins went small to get an extra ball-handler out there against the trap and give Lattin more space down low. 

 
Jayrod said:
It may be more prevalent than I realize, but wouldn't basketball teams benefit from having one coach focus on offense and another coach on defense (kind of like coordinators in football)?  I know Michigan has done just that and it seems to have paid off immensely.  Heck even a head coach hiring one of each just like a football staff could work.  Again, it may already be in place to some degree, but I don't see why it hasn't become a more known/official thing.
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I think Larry Shyatt was roughly a defensive coordinator for UF's title teams. I think he rubbed off on Billy because they had some really good defensive teams after he left whereas  defense had been a sore point in a lot of seasons before.

 
Welp.... this is the first Final Four I can recall where I'm not at least rooting against a team. I'm leaning LUC just because they are the underdog, but I love Belein and want to see him get his due.

 
Not pretty, but both teams are playing their asses off. I think Michigan has to isolate their players more and take advantage of their height. 

 
BobbyLayne said:
Probably not gonna win too many games in which three starters go scoreless 
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Maybe not, but this game is an alley fight. UM just needs to get their superior athletes a few good looks. That's easier said than done, of course, as LUC's defense is suffocating (hell, so is Michigan's)

 
Mr. Ham said:
Most obnoxious game call I can remember.  Whose Idea was it to staff it with a Michigan homer? I’m generally neutral to these teams, but this is making Michigan the Devil to me.

(That and the fact the Michigan center is a villain from a Captain America movie).
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Do you realize they have Loyola, Michigan and neutral announcers on three different channels?

 
Mr. Ham said:
Most obnoxious game call I can remember.  Whose Idea was it to staff it with a Michigan homer? I’m generally neutral to these teams, but this is making Michigan the Devil to me.

(That and the fact the Michigan center is a villain from a Captain America movie).
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I had to mute it.

 
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