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2024-25 NBA Thread: defeated Minnesota fan ready to move on to next crushing disappointment (112 Viewers)

The Athletic's article from yesterday on Nico Harrison has some wild anecdotes. E.g.:

Harrison is a notorious nutrition devotee and will occasionally begin conversations by quizzing friends on their health habits. “What did you eat today?” is one of his go-to greetings.
Those who know Harrison best insist that once he trusts someone, he turns transparent as glass.

One person from a rival front office who has talked trades with Harrison described him as “almost too honest.” His goal, the person said, is to build a relationship with the other team, acting as forthright as possible.
 
These things are not aimed specifically at the age demographic of both this board and the talking heads on TV - we also remember how much fun they were to watch when we were in our teens and maybe early 20s when we were more the correct demographic. The problem for the NBA is that that age group is not who the advertisers want.
Sportscenter used to help with this too. Those dead days before the All Star Games where they would show highlights from past years and otherwise talk up the event. Now the talking heads debate the latest tweet from @LebronFlopper69 on whether Air Jordan could have dunked over a Saturn Vue or something.
There is also just a million other things to watch. Back in the day it was all-star game or some ****ty reruns of something
Also people are older now. They remember things from when they are young with reverence and so everything now has to suck. These all-star games were lightly played until the final 8 minutes 25 years ago too. Just nobody wants to remember that.
If they were playing seriously for 8 minutes these days, nobody (ok, very few) would be complaining.
Of course they would be. Those teams actually played with effort two days ago lol.
I must have missed that when I watched the whole thing.
Sounds like it. How did you miss Wemby playing D? He’s the tallest guy out there.

It wasn’t a playoff intensity but ASG never are and everybody made more of an effort than previous years.
 
These things are not aimed specifically at the age demographic of both this board and the talking heads on TV - we also remember how much fun they were to watch when we were in our teens and maybe early 20s when we were more the correct demographic. The problem for the NBA is that that age group is not who the advertisers want.
Sportscenter used to help with this too. Those dead days before the All Star Games where they would show highlights from past years and otherwise talk up the event. Now the talking heads debate the latest tweet from @LebronFlopper69 on whether Air Jordan could have dunked over a Saturn Vue or something.
There is also just a million other things to watch. Back in the day it was all-star game or some ****ty reruns of something
Also people are older now. They remember things from when they are young with reverence and so everything now has to suck. These all-star games were lightly played until the final 8 minutes 25 years ago too. Just nobody wants to remember that.
If they were playing seriously for 8 minutes these days, nobody (ok, very few) would be complaining.
Of course they would be. Those teams actually played with effort two days ago lol.
I must have missed that when I watched the whole thing.
Sounds like it. How did you miss Wemby playing D? He’s the tallest guy out there.

It wasn’t a playoff intensity but ASG never are and everybody made more of an effort than previous years.
I think there is a misremembering of how engaged players were and the few clips of Kobe or Jordan really giving it 100% are given more weight than the rest of the game.
 
Bill Simmons had a somewhat interesting idea to "fix" all-star weekend. His suggestion was to have one game on Saturday with the dunk contest and then a second game on Sunday with the 3 point contest. The Sunday game would be comprised of teams of 8 with all but one player having to be on a top 5 team in each conference with the winning team's conference getting home court in the NBA finals. The Saturday game would consist of the remaining 8 players playing against a Rising Star team with cash on the line. Refusal to play by an all-star would result in a forever ban from being an all-star.

Probably wouldn't work, but seems like a better idea than what we have now.

The first bold - the MLB did that and I'm pretty sure it was universally hated.

The second bold - That sounds like a perfect way to get zero real all-stars ever again. I'm guessing the majority of veteran all-stars would prefer to never have to participate in this week ever again. When you are guys like Lebron, Curry, Durant, Lillard, Jokic, Giannis, etc., a week off to be with family and get some rest would probably be much preferred.
I don't disagree with you as I stated it probably wouldn't work. But, I do think we're at a boiling point and therefore Simmons' nuclear option doesn't seem like the worst idea ever.

I think the reason that the MOLB's version of winner get to host the World Series failed was because too many players didn't have a realistic shot of that mattering and, given just how baseball works, the format failed to incentivize managers to get all players some playing time. In contrast, Simmons' suggestions of requiring the players be from the top 5 teams from each conference and just a roster of 8 seems to alleviate the two issues that caused the idea to fail in the MLB.

In a world in which people already complain that the regular season doesn't matter enough, putting any sort of emphasis on an exhibition game over the regular season seems doomed to have unintended consequences. Even if this got the desired effect in having players care a little bit, they won't be 100% invested, and just imagine the first time somebody like SGA or Mobley, one of whom would have home court if they made it to the finals, blows out a knee or something because the NBA is forcing them to play hard.

Bill Simmons often comes up with dumb ideas, that's kind of his shtick, but this is especially terrible all the way around.
I think we've overcorrected in terms of injury avoidance but I agree that Simmons's idea is terrible.
I don't know if it is an overcorrection or if it is a combination of players taking their bodies more seriously and the need for more rest as the game is significantly more taxing than it ever has been. There is a reason why you are seeing guys like Durant, Curry, and Lebron playing at All-NBA levels in their late 30s (or 40) when that almost never happened before. The NBA is better for having 70 games a year of their star players for 18 seasons of legit star play rather than 82 games for 14 seasons or something.
 
These things are not aimed specifically at the age demographic of both this board and the talking heads on TV - we also remember how much fun they were to watch when we were in our teens and maybe early 20s when we were more the correct demographic. The problem for the NBA is that that age group is not who the advertisers want.
Sportscenter used to help with this too. Those dead days before the All Star Games where they would show highlights from past years and otherwise talk up the event. Now the talking heads debate the latest tweet from @LebronFlopper69 on whether Air Jordan could have dunked over a Saturn Vue or something.
There is also just a million other things to watch. Back in the day it was all-star game or some ****ty reruns of something
Also people are older now. They remember things from when they are young with reverence and so everything now has to suck. These all-star games were lightly played until the final 8 minutes 25 years ago too. Just nobody wants to remember that.

This is true, but the last few years, and especially last year, it seemed to go well beyond that.
 
These things are not aimed specifically at the age demographic of both this board and the talking heads on TV - we also remember how much fun they were to watch when we were in our teens and maybe early 20s when we were more the correct demographic. The problem for the NBA is that that age group is not who the advertisers want.
Sportscenter used to help with this too. Those dead days before the All Star Games where they would show highlights from past years and otherwise talk up the event. Now the talking heads debate the latest tweet from @LebronFlopper69 on whether Air Jordan could have dunked over a Saturn Vue or something.
There is also just a million other things to watch. Back in the day it was all-star game or some ****ty reruns of something
Also people are older now. They remember things from when they are young with reverence and so everything now has to suck. These all-star games were lightly played until the final 8 minutes 25 years ago too. Just nobody wants to remember that.
If they were playing seriously for 8 minutes these days, nobody (ok, very few) would be complaining.
Of course they would be. Those teams actually played with effort two days ago lol.
I must have missed that when I watched the whole thing.
Sounds like it. How did you miss Wemby playing D? He’s the tallest guy out there.

It wasn’t a playoff intensity but ASG never are and everybody made more of an effort than previous years.
If a few other guys had given anything close to Wemby's effort it would have been more fun.
 
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I think one thing that would actually help the all-star game play is to get rid of the 3-point line. Make it an endless loop of players driving to the basket uncontested like they did back in the good old days.
 
Bill Simmons had a somewhat interesting idea to "fix" all-star weekend. His suggestion was to have one game on Saturday with the dunk contest and then a second game on Sunday with the 3 point contest. The Sunday game would be comprised of teams of 8 with all but one player having to be on a top 5 team in each conference with the winning team's conference getting home court in the NBA finals. The Saturday game would consist of the remaining 8 players playing against a Rising Star team with cash on the line. Refusal to play by an all-star would result in a forever ban from being an all-star.

Probably wouldn't work, but seems like a better idea than what we have now.

The first bold - the MLB did that and I'm pretty sure it was universally hated.

The second bold - That sounds like a perfect way to get zero real all-stars ever again. I'm guessing the majority of veteran all-stars would prefer to never have to participate in this week ever again. When you are guys like Lebron, Curry, Durant, Lillard, Jokic, Giannis, etc., a week off to be with family and get some rest would probably be much preferred.
I don't disagree with you as I stated it probably wouldn't work. But, I do think we're at a boiling point and therefore Simmons' nuclear option doesn't seem like the worst idea ever.

I think the reason that the MOLB's version of winner get to host the World Series failed was because too many players didn't have a realistic shot of that mattering and, given just how baseball works, the format failed to incentivize managers to get all players some playing time. In contrast, Simmons' suggestions of requiring the players be from the top 5 teams from each conference and just a roster of 8 seems to alleviate the two issues that caused the idea to fail in the MLB.

In a world in which people already complain that the regular season doesn't matter enough, putting any sort of emphasis on an exhibition game over the regular season seems doomed to have unintended consequences. Even if this got the desired effect in having players care a little bit, they won't be 100% invested, and just imagine the first time somebody like SGA or Mobley, one of whom would have home court if they made it to the finals, blows out a knee or something because the NBA is forcing them to play hard.

Bill Simmons often comes up with dumb ideas, that's kind of his shtick, but this is especially terrible all the way around.
I think we've overcorrected in terms of injury avoidance but I agree that Simmons's idea is terrible.
I don't know if it is an overcorrection or if it is a combination of players taking their bodies more seriously and the need for more rest as the game is significantly more taxing than it ever has been. There is a reason why you are seeing guys like Durant, Curry, and Lebron playing at All-NBA levels in their late 30s (or 40) when that almost never happened before. The NBA is better for having 70 games a year of their star players for 18 seasons of legit star play rather than 82 games for 14 seasons or something.
I don't dispute most of that stuff has been good for the game, but I think the pendulum at some point a while back swung a bit too far into an emphasis on load management and there has been appropriate pushback from the league in the last year or two on some of that.
 
The Athletic's article from yesterday on Nico Harrison has some wild anecdotes. E.g.:

Harrison is a notorious nutrition devotee and will occasionally begin conversations by quizzing friends on their health habits. “What did you eat today?” is one of his go-to greetings.
Those who know Harrison best insist that once he trusts someone, he turns transparent as glass.

One person from a rival front office who has talked trades with Harrison described him as “almost too honest.” His goal, the person said, is to build a relationship with the other team, acting as forthright as possible.

Voulgaris told a story about interacting with Dončić during his rookie season. Dončić filled a thermos with lemonade and sweet tea. “I know liquid calories are death,” Voulgaris told then-owner Cuban. Voulgaris, according to his recounting, was told to stay in his lane.

LOL.....Sweet Tea? My god.

The number one cause of Type 2 Diabetes in the South US is sweet tea. This cat is out there using it in his Arnie Palmers and averaging a triple double. :lmao:
 
These things are not aimed specifically at the age demographic of both this board and the talking heads on TV - we also remember how much fun they were to watch when we were in our teens and maybe early 20s when we were more the correct demographic. The problem for the NBA is that that age group is not who the advertisers want.
Sportscenter used to help with this too. Those dead days before the All Star Games where they would show highlights from past years and otherwise talk up the event. Now the talking heads debate the latest tweet from @LebronFlopper69 on whether Air Jordan could have dunked over a Saturn Vue or something.
There is also just a million other things to watch. Back in the day it was all-star game or some ****ty reruns of something
Also people are older now. They remember things from when they are young with reverence and so everything now has to suck. These all-star games were lightly played until the final 8 minutes 25 years ago too. Just nobody wants to remember that.
If they were playing seriously for 8 minutes these days, nobody (ok, very few) would be complaining.
Of course they would be. Those teams actually played with effort two days ago lol.
I must have missed that when I watched the whole thing.
Sounds like it. How did you miss Wemby playing D? He’s the tallest guy out there.

It wasn’t a playoff intensity but ASG never are and everybody made more of an effort than previous years.
i agree with this 100 precent wemby was definitely playing d take that to the bank brochachos
 
Yeah, we needed Wemby to start that last game, because it would get real embarrassing real quick to half-*** it against Wemby when he's trying. The breaks and promos just ruined it.

The NHL's event this year has been amazing and I am very much looking forward to Thursday night, but it's not as easy as just trying to replicate that with the NBA. There aren't enough countries to make it interesting. It's a tough spot for the NBA. The players definitely care about making the all-star team, so I don't think it can just go away, so I dunno what they can do to make it exciting.
 
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Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
#3 there is probably my favorite, wow.

I played in HS against a guy who was the #1 rated dunker in the world for a while. He eventually turned into a decent player but at the time he was averaging like 8 ppg for the high school team. They blew us out once though and they essentially turned the fourth quarter into an in-game dunk contest for him...it was pretty awesome.
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
I like Rivera, mainly because he would post his workouts which I used a to frame my son's lifting sessions.

 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
#3 there is probably my favorite, wow.

I played in HS against a guy who was the #1 rated dunker in the world for a while. He eventually turned into a decent player but at the time he was averaging like 8 ppg for the high school team. They blew us out once though and they essentially turned the fourth quarter into an in-game dunk contest for him...it was pretty awesome.
Not a fan of the elbow dunks
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
I like Rivera, mainly because he would post his workouts which I used a to frame my son's lifting sessions.

Those cheaters are out there on 9 foot rims...
 
In case I forgot to mention it, I'm a big fan of Steph Castle's final contest dunk with the left hand. So smooth.

 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
I like Rivera, mainly because he would post his workouts which I used a to frame my son's lifting sessions.

Those cheaters are out there on 9 foot rims...
And they probably take about 50 attempts to hit some of these
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
I like Rivera, mainly because he would post his workouts which I used a to frame my son's lifting sessions.

Those cheaters are out there on 9 foot rims...
And they probably take about 50 attempts to hit some of these
They had a counter for 5 attempts. But it probably took 100s of attempts on their own time to get comfortable with it which is why they are so much better at this than the NBA guys.
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
Meh. Most of those dunks were meh.
 
Interesting exchange between some randos and KD on twitter yesterday — https://x.com/KDTrey5/status/1891875403834249618

@KDTrey5
·
22h
For the betterment of your mental health and just overall well being, just don’t watch the nba. Hockey is right there and they play with that aggression that u may like, they also rarely get traded or go to new teams in free agency so the loyalty aspect is there. Hope that helps
 
Mark Williams is going to put up 25/20 with 5 blocks tonight against the Lakers right? For the discourse.

Either that or he gets hurt with a freak ankle injury stepping on Cam Reddish’s foot, and Knecht goes 6 for 6 on threes for 28 points.

Either way, Bronny plays the last two minutes and gets the loudest cheers of the night.
 
man, i can't wait for Lebron to retire so we can stop seeing these stupid ****ing nicknames people have drummed up thinking they are some creative shot. when they're really just awful, stupid, uncreative and repetitive.
 
on the one hand i really like it when the teams in the allstar game play basketball and all of it defense and offense because every one of those brohans is an amazing athlete and i enjoy seeing them when they are going all out because quite frankly it is amazing but on the other hand i see an argument that if you are a player you want a fun time with your buddies and dont want to play a playoff level of exertion game that really has no meaning for your team or carreer other than being there so i guess i dont know what to think right now give me your thoughts fellow brochachos and as always take that to the bankshot
 
Even if the big names were in the dunk contest, I still would not care enough to watch. I think the dunk contest as an idea is played out. We need like helium shoes or some technological/evolutionary advancement to make that interesting again.
Watch this dude.... this is why the NBA dunk contest is lame and played out. Jordan Kilganon is a professional dunker - he probably has more ability than all but a couple NBAers but he also has significantly more time to dedicate to the craft. 50 years ago or whatever when they had the first ABA dunk contest (in Denver!), it was still a developing "art form" and the best athletes were all in the NBA/ABA. It takes more to be an NBA player in 2025 than just pure athleticism so there are guys on the fringes of the basketball world that are crazy athletes and with the advent of the internet, they have a place to make money.
I like Rivera, mainly because he would post his workouts which I used a to frame my son's lifting sessions.

Those cheaters are out there on 9 foot rims...
And they probably take about 50 attempts to hit some of these
They had a counter for 5 attempts. But it probably took 100s of attempts on their own time to get comfortable with it which is why they are so much better at this than the NBA guys.
It's a bummer he used up all his body's lifetime allotment of jumps just to make that video.
 
The Lakers are coming to Denver on Saturday - the cheapest tickets in the whole arena are $175/each. Tickets tonight against the Hornets start at $21. I have a half season - our tickets are something like $55 face value - tonight our row/section (and other twin sections) are going for between $350 and $450. In the 9 years we've had tickets, I've never specifically sold tickets to make a profit but I am highly considering it.
 
The Lakers are coming to Denver on Saturday - the cheapest tickets in the whole arena are $175/each. Tickets tonight against the Hornets start at $21. I have a half season - our tickets are something like $55 face value - tonight our row/section (and other twin sections) are going for between $350 and $450. In the 9 years we've had tickets, I've never specifically sold tickets to make a profit but I am highly considering it.
If you're big on seeing LeBron at least once in your life, go. Otherwise I'd definitely sell those bad boys.
 
The Lakers are coming to Denver on Saturday - the cheapest tickets in the whole arena are $175/each. Tickets tonight against the Hornets start at $21. I have a half season - our tickets are something like $55 face value - tonight our row/section (and other twin sections) are going for between $350 and $450. In the 9 years we've had tickets, I've never specifically sold tickets to make a profit but I am highly considering it.
If you're big on seeing LeBron at least once in your life, go. Otherwise I'd definitely sell those bad boys.
At this point, I've seen everybody. Lakers (and to a lesser extent Warriors and Celtics) games aren't typically my favorite as the crowd is a third Lakers fans. The only exception was the conference finals two years ago where there were almost zero Lakers fans, it was fantastic.
 
I love the "what did you eat today" bit. I may try and sprinkle that into my greetings

Dude, people already hate you enough. I'd not.
Such a mean spirited human. Whatever happened to you, it's not your fault

I'm trying to help you.

I think somebody greeting me with a daily "what did you eat today" might earn them a throat punch and not a jury in the world would vote to convict.
Oh, but filming it and sending it to shuke is just fine. F'n Snowflake!!!!
 
Bobby Portis just got suspended 25 games for taking Tramadol.

He alleges he thought he was taking Toradol (which is allowed). Kind of excessive, IMO.

If that’s the reality of what happened, then yes, likely excessive. Unfortunately there’s no way to validate that, and everyone busted almost inevitably says some variant of the same “oops, that was an accident” message. So, 25 games it is. I’d argue it’s justified, as it sounds like it was a med prescribed to a trainer who then gave some of it to Portis. I can pretty well assure you I wouldn’t take someone else’s prescription if it could cost me millions. Seems like he’s got the funds to have someone run out for a (correct) prescription if his own.
 
Bobby Portis just got suspended 25 games for taking Tramadol.

He alleges he thought he was taking Toradol (which is allowed). Kind of excessive, IMO.

If that’s the reality of what happened, then yes, likely excessive. Unfortunately there’s no way to validate that, and everyone busted almost inevitably says some variant of the same “oops, that was an accident” message. So, 25 games it is. I’d argue it’s justified, as it sounds like it was a med prescribed to a trainer who then gave some of it to Portis. I can pretty well assure you I wouldn’t take someone else’s prescription if it could cost me millions. Seems like he’s got the funds to have someone run out for a (correct) prescription if his own.
Yeah, if ignorance was an accepted defense, nobody would ever get clipped for PED's.
 

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