Apple Jack
Footballguy
Can a renter tell a cop with no probable cause to gtfo the property?
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8 police officers surround black student while picking up trash where he lives in Colorado (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
matuski
Footballguy
You can't make a claim for any of this from that video.
The video did not even start until it escalated.
eta - a lot of context missing.
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matuski
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
I'm not making it from that video. I'm using common sense.
1. No chance the officer is asking a white person sitting on the porch if he belongs there. Just doesn't happen.
2. The guy handed over his ID. It was obviously not in any threatening manner or he would have already been in handcuffs. The fact the officer decided to "investigate further" when he shouldn't have started to begin with shows further lack of judgment
I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that the above is accurate without needing to see any further video.
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Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Also fair
When an officer, or a group of officers, are standing near you shouting for you to drop whats in your hand is not the best time to argue the Constitution. Jmo
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Hey, I'm with you.
Of course, I don't have to go through it as often as this guy probably does.
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Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Doesn't need to.
The officer needs to have reasonable suspicion of a crime to ask for him to produce an ID and detain him. Sitting on a porch isn't that. I mean, he can ask, but that guy isn't obligated to provide anything. It's against our rights as citizens here in this country to be stopped and expected to produce ID just because an officer asks without suspicion of criminal behavior. They already acknowledged that he was sitting on his patio when he was approached. He would be completely in his right to not give any ID, tell him to #### off, and go back in his house if he wanted.
ETA -- For your reading -- Stop and identify statutes
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Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
You are again making the assumption about how this began.
Was the officer responding to call about suspicious activity or crime? We have no idea. How did he approach them? We have no idea. How long did it take before the kid started filming? We have no idea.
I did not even make it to the ID part... within 60 seconds you see the guy isn't complying with repeated (and repeated and repeated) simple instructions, and a dude in hysterics yelling through the window.
I don't know why people are having a hard time with this concept - do what they tell you to do, especially something as simple as "drop it". Not complying with simple commands from police officers is a good way to make a simple situation complicated.
I sincerely doubt you have done enough research to conclude "no chance" or "doesn't happen" to white people. It's not a type of story the media cares about.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I read other articles about this. Here is one
Relevant quote from the beginning:
No one called that in.
Yes, I fully admit I'm making assumptions here. But, as I already stated, I feel very comfortable wagering a large amount of money that the officer saw a black man sitting on a patio in an area that is predominantly white and decided to look into it. It's profiling. That the kid gave him ID shows that he was at least somewhat cooperative to start. When that still wasn't enough, things escalated. And that's at no fault of the student. I don't need a video to confirm when common sense says this is the most likely explanation.
Could it have gone down another way? Yeah, it's possible. But not probably, IMO. And that's the problem with this whole issue when we look for less common explanations when the duck sounds indicate it's just a duck.
gianmarco
Footballguy
And I sincerely doubt you realize what people with dark colored skin go through throughout their life that white people don't.
Statorama
gangster
matuski
Footballguy
Immediate compliance is my own policy. The police are in fact the authority, so yes, you submit to it.
"yes officer"
"im reaching for my glove compartment officer"
"thank you officer"
Certainly if an officer ever gave me an outrageous instruction along the lines of "drop it", I would.
Also - pro gun control here.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
How could you live in this country and still give cops the benefit of the doubt in any situation like this. They need to be recorded and reminded that they're being held accountable at all times, and even when they know they're being recorded, it still doesn't slow down their egos or need to exert their power, and it always bleeds through in videos like this. The militarization of our police has created more and more of an "us vs. them" mindset in our cops over the years. They've forgotten that they are NOT the law, they enforce it--by protecting and serving the same people they're arresting in their communities.
And it doesn't help that such a large portion of our police forces are ex-military, a group that by and large has already been broken down and built back up with the habit of constantly seeing things as "us vs. them" in order to survive, with a necessary comfort in pulling the trigger if there is danger. That mindset is not healthy to have policing most communities imo. It should not be easy or automatic to decide you or others around are in enough danger to necessitate the pulling of your gun, much less your trigger. It should not be drilled into a cop as an instinct.
This is a national crisis and has been for a long time. Guns are part of it. Militarization is a part of it. Personality types drawn to this brand of policework is part of it. It feeds into a growing lack of trust between cops and the people they serve in their communities, and just keeps getting worse and worse. Seems to have started at least partially with the war on drugs.
And it doesn't help that such a large portion of our police forces are ex-military, a group that by and large has already been broken down and built back up with the habit of constantly seeing things as "us vs. them" in order to survive, with a necessary comfort in pulling the trigger if there is danger. That mindset is not healthy to have policing most communities imo. It should not be easy or automatic to decide you or others around are in enough danger to necessitate the pulling of your gun, much less your trigger. It should not be drilled into a cop as an instinct.
This is a national crisis and has been for a long time. Guns are part of it. Militarization is a part of it. Personality types drawn to this brand of policework is part of it. It feeds into a growing lack of trust between cops and the people they serve in their communities, and just keeps getting worse and worse. Seems to have started at least partially with the war on drugs.
gianmarco
Footballguy
A little more about having to produce an ID when asked.
So, unless this officer goes by and asks every person he sees sitting on a patio with a "private property" sign if they belong there, then this is the very definition of racial profiling.
From the earlier article:
Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. The typical insult of "oblivious, racist white man" doesn't apply to me. Sorry.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
How about a link to anyone posting that only a minority should obey a direct command from a police officer?
Or you're full of crap again which would make you 2 for 2 in this thread so far.
What's it gonna be?
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
So if there are dumb and abusive police in Boulder, it would seem that the odds of them being dumb and abusive to their white population would happen a fair enough amount of the time.
Mookie
Footballguy
It's very easy for white people to demand compliance, but I, as a white male, would get pretty "uppity" if a cop drove up to my front lawn while I was trimming the hedges and asked to see my ID, and then engaged me in a stand off because I wasn't being compliant enough. Leave me the #### alone!
That sort of thing would NEVER happen to me, but it happens to black men all the time. Why are the rules different for black people? Why is this harassment, and in some cases murder, tolerated? In responding to this harassment and profiling, why do blacks need to be more compliant, docile, and polite if they are guaranteed equal rights of citizenship? Is this treatment indicative of some remnants from our shared history? What if the roles were reversed and black cops treated white men this way - would you still be demanding compliance and "yessir, right away sir, please and thank you for detaining me in this manner sir"?
That sort of thing would NEVER happen to me, but it happens to black men all the time. Why are the rules different for black people? Why is this harassment, and in some cases murder, tolerated? In responding to this harassment and profiling, why do blacks need to be more compliant, docile, and polite if they are guaranteed equal rights of citizenship? Is this treatment indicative of some remnants from our shared history? What if the roles were reversed and black cops treated white men this way - would you still be demanding compliance and "yessir, right away sir, please and thank you for detaining me in this manner sir"?
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
I would get uppity too if it happened to me, but once it went to escalate, I would comply before I become a world star video. But I am generally a comply person too, so I am talking out of both sides of my mouth.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Finally had a chance to watch that video. This whole thing is no issue at all if those two guys aren't complete jags.
The guy filming it is a complete turd. At 8:33 ish he calls the officers a bunch of (word that starts with f and rhymes with maggots).
The guy filming it is a complete turd. At 8:33 ish he calls the officers a bunch of (word that starts with f and rhymes with maggots).
Henry Ford
Footballguy
No argument here. I'm thinking he may be a white guy who doesn't understand he nearly got his buddy killed.
ffldrew
Footballguy
How did the officer get the ID?- did they guy just hand it to him or did he throw/toss it to the officer.? If cop was edgy that would have been an awkward moment getting that id.
Might have been only the 10th or 11th black person the cop has ever seen in Boulder - he was probably suspicious right there.
Might have been only the 10th or 11th black person the cop has ever seen in Boulder - he was probably suspicious right there.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
A couple years ago, a neighborhood kid was helping my neighbors change out the storm windows on their second floor. He's a good kid who helps them with yardwork, shoveling, etc. He borrowed my ladder and was working away when the cops stopped by to speak with him. The cops spoke with him for a few minutes then left. I spoke with the kid and he was sad it happened. I live in a city with high racial tension. The past year we've had several police gunfire fatalities and several innocent/unarmed black people shot by police. We had "riots" in a city neighborhood 2 years ago following a police shooting.
My take is this: I'm happy my neighbors are vigilant and will call the police if they see something suspicious. I have two young kids and am very thankful for all the hard work the police do to protect us. I would never presume to be able to put myself in their shoes and judge their conduct. That said, its very sad these types of incidents happen. These cops did a poor job. At the same time, the student is not without blame. The main disagreement I have with opinions in here is those who paint it as a simple, right/wrong equation. Its more than that. Its a very difficult, complex situation that I'm thankful I don't have to deal with on a daily basis.
My take is this: I'm happy my neighbors are vigilant and will call the police if they see something suspicious. I have two young kids and am very thankful for all the hard work the police do to protect us. I would never presume to be able to put myself in their shoes and judge their conduct. That said, its very sad these types of incidents happen. These cops did a poor job. At the same time, the student is not without blame. The main disagreement I have with opinions in here is those who paint it as a simple, right/wrong equation. Its more than that. Its a very difficult, complex situation that I'm thankful I don't have to deal with on a daily basis.
I can totally understand the frustration and the anger in these situations and they shouldn't be that way. However, if simply complying (no matter if there is a reason or no reason to be searched/asked for ID/etc) allows there to be no confrontation and no deaths then why not do it? As someone posted earlier, if the search/detention was a problem then take the legal actions after the fact.
I know this is a simplistic way to look at these things but I would rather be alive and doing things to comply even if there is no reason for the investigation, than be dead and in the right because I didn't have to comply.
gianmarco
Footballguy
100% disagree.
The issue started before that camera is rolling. It's most definitely an issue when a cop asks a black man sitting on a porch if he's supposed to be there. It's most definitely an issue when he's on a college campus, then provides a college ID, and is on a porch at 8:30am on a Friday with a garbage clamp and a white bucket and explains he's cleaning his yard and an officer has his gun drawn and calls for backup at that point.
We've all seen what a garbage picker upper looks like. It's a pretty obvious tool that every single one of us has seen at one point in our lives. I can tell that's what he's holding from a ####ty video shot in landportrait mode. For the officer to describe that as a "blunt object" and demand he put it down is just plain nonsense. To have his gun drawn is inexcusable. Especially once 8 police officers had him surrounded in his front lawn. Put the ####### gun away.
To claim this is "no issue at all" is exactly why it's so hard to eliminate racism and racial profiling. It's a BIG issue.
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Pipes
Footballguy
I think he was referring to this specific incident. It would not have escalated to where it got to if the guy just complied completely from the start.
That isn't to say that the cop was correct in his escalation or the way he handled thing. It is only saying if there was compliance it would not have gotten to the point it did. There is obviously a systemic problem that is being escalated by all parties. Everyone is in the wrong to some degree and nothing will change as long as these incidents keep getting escalated.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
The guy somehow got his college ID into the hands of the police officer. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he complied "from the start". At what point is it enough when the cop keeps taking a non-issue further and turns it into an issue where we can say the student has done enough?
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I can strap my AK47 to my back and walk into Starbucks but it doesn’t mean It’s a wise decision.
Pipes
Footballguy
He did comply though by initially handing the officer his id. How much complying does one need to do while cleaning up trash in broad daylight?
Oh, you have video of that? Can you share the link with the rest of us? You seem to have the inside scoop on all the facts.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Are you being obtuse?
At the end of the video, the officer handed the student back his ID. During that 16 minute video, do you think the officer somehow stole it from him using magic? I don't need video to know the student gave him his ID since there's absolutely no other explanation for how it ended up in the police officer's possession.
Plus, again, from the article I posted later:
matuski
Footballguy
Moe.
Footballguy
I get it but how dense can this cop be? The optics are awful. He's a cop in a very liberal college town - he's oblivious to the current social environment in this country?
https://www.boulderpdapp.com/news/c/0/i/31397207/update-internal-affairs-investigation-over-march-1-police-contact Interested to see the outcome of the investigation
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
I'm not sure what happened between the ID exchange and the beginning of the video where all I see is a man screaming and isn't complying with the officer's commands. You don't know for sure either.
People get outraged all the time over snippets of video that don't tell the entire story.
gianmarco
Footballguy
It is?
-- It's 16 minutes long
-- I see a black man with a bucket and trash clamp in front of where he lives
-- I see multiple police officers, one with a pistol drawn and another with a shotgun for almost the entirety of the video
-- I see an officer hand him his ID at the end that was obviously given to him before
-- I see officers disperse when someone else arrives and mentions profiling and dealing with it later without arresting him or ticketing him or fining him. And most importantly, without apologizing to him.
What, exactly, is out of context?
It's amazing the mental gymnastics that takes place sometimes to excuse poor behavior.
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EYLive
Footballguy
I agree with all of this.
Having said that, the police were 100% in the wrong. It's like the 7 other cops were just itching to shoot a brother, so they kept standing around hoping something would go down that would justify them firing their weapons at him.
matuski
Footballguy
You are omitting the key pieces of context.. are you serious?
The poor behavior is yelling/cussing at cops (the VERY FIRST piece of context we get). Poor behavior is not complying with a simple and utterly harmless request.. put it down (the SECOND piece of context we get).
That is the reason the video is 16 minutes long, and other cops had to show up.
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Mr.Pack
Footballguy
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