Brandon Marshall (1 Viewer)

[Deuce'sWild]

My only problem with SSOG is that he says Marshall isn't even Cutler's preferred target. 102 catches last year and starts off with 18 this year. Seems pretty easy one to figure out.

 

[Flossy]

I agree that everyone knew he was getting the ball. I disagree that no one could stop it. His raw totals are eye-popping thanks to sheer volume of targets, but his per-target play wasn't exceptional. In fact, on money downs, it could be argued that he wasn't even Cutler's primary target. Stokley converted 60% of the times he was thrown to on 3rd down. Marshall converted 41%. Stokley had a virtually identical number of first downs on 40% fewer targets. Marshall performed well, but there were over a dozen WRs who would have done significantly better with a comparable number of targets, IMO. As I said last year- I think Marshall's strengths lead to him being overrated. They're also blissfully unaware of the fact that he's surprisingly average when the ball is not in his hands.

I mean no disrespect but this kind of stuff just screams novice and your lack of real understanding of the game itself. You throw 3rd down percentages out there like it is rock solid evidence of what's really going on out there on the field. Do you think Shanahan says to himself on 3rd down, "well since Brandon converts 41% on 3rd down, let's throw to Stokley more." You do know those stats don't reveal who was open right? Should Cutler throw to Marshall if he is being double teamed, which in most cases on 3rd downs, he is? Everybody knows Cutler is going to Marshall, especially in passing downs, so of course his percentages will be skewed because it is much tougher to catch the football when you are being smothered by two defenders. The numbers don't tell the whole story. The funny thing is, Marshall still gets his.And your evaluation of him after the catch is jaw dropping. His ability after the catch is what makes him so special and might be his second best tool behind his hands. The only receivers in the NFL that can sniff Marshall's RAC ability is TO and Boldin.

Evaluate the talent first. When you evaluate the talent accurately, it will run parallel with your statistical interpretations. If you look at the statistics first, before evaluating the talent itself, you are going to miss the boat. Marshall is a BEAST, plain and simple.

 

[SSOG]

I am sorry that you do not own him in any of your leagues.

Not only do I own him, he and Cutler single-handedly won me a game this week. I also tried to acquire Marshall several times through the course of the year last year in my Dynasty league. Better luck next time, though.

At some point you just have to run up the white flag. You fought the good fight. You don't think Marshall will be a top WR in the NFL - we all get that. We understood it last year when you railed about how Walker was the better WR, and when he came back, Marshall would settle back into a good #2 WR.Its time for everyone to move on - projecting Marshall for 87 catches on the year is just funny. If Marshall plays the full year, he will easily crack 100 receptions - and will get close to the 140 he wants if he stays healthy. He is very difficult to cover - because he can beat you deep - so the backs have to lay off him at the line of scrimmage, and when they do - he eats up 8 yards on a quick slant. I think it is pretty clear that he is Cutler's favorite target - so all your nonsense about targets regressing does not take into account the realities on the ground.

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?I do agree that any 87 catch projections have to be adjusted now. 87 grabs in 15 games is 5.8 per game. Even if you think he'll average 5.8 per game the rest of the way out, thanks to his 18 right now he'll still finish with 99. Projections, like rankings, need to be adjusted as the season progresses and as more information becomes available. I've never seen anyone say otherwise.

Dude - just stop. I have to read War and Peace with every post, and it usually praises a guy so you're protected in arguments then knocks em back down to show you weren't/aren't wrong - ever. Wanna Boldin vs. Marshall sig bet? Total fantasy points for the season? All receptions aren't created equal? I liked that one the best. While I have longtime respect for your Bronco insight, you wax poetic like none other trying to make a point stick, no matter what the evidence shows.

Alright, I'll make it nice and succinct for you. Brandon Marshall = one of the top 5 young receivers in the NFL. Brandon Marshall != one of the top 5 receivers in the NFL. This is the same position that I have maintained in all of my posts on the subject. Is that clear and concise? Does that strip out any wiggle room so that I can't later come back and say that I meant something else entirely and that I'm never wrong?About Boldin: No, I don't want to sig bet. Boldin is a better NFL receiver, but Marshall plays with a better QB and has a better running game and worse complementary receivers, making him the better fantasy receiver. And no, not all receptions are created equal. Unless you want to tell me that a -1 yard reception on 3rd and 2 somehow adds value to the team. Derrick Mason actually caught one more ball than Marshall did last year- can you honestly read that and still maintain that all receptions are created equal? Marshall's stat line jumps off the page because of the 18 receptions- without that, his 166/1 would read like any other garden variety big game that we run into every week in the Not For Long. I'm just saying that I don't care how many receptions he had. Not all receptions are created equal. I'm more concerned with how many QUALITY receptions he had.

so catches per target is now replaced by Quality catches? How do we define quality catches and where can we find this info? Seems as if Brandon's bar is constantly being raised and when he reaches, exceeds one bar a new one is put in place. Even when he sets a Denver Bronco record it's treated as another day at the office.I'm not bashing you as I respect your Bronco info and insight but I feel you have been and continue to be off based w/respect to Marshall.

Who says catches per target has been replaced? I still think it's a great metric. There's more than one quality metric out there, though- catches per target, yards per target, success rate, and quality catches (defined as total targets that result in a successful play) are all good metrics for evaluating receivers. Quality catches would actually be Marshall's strongest metric, since it's the only cumulative stat of the four.

Honest to god - What are you talking about? The guy just had the best receiving game in Broncos History and you are talking about quality receptions and Derrick Mason. Move on. You used to say you could name 20 receivers better than Marshall. I see you now have him as a Top 5. Funny how things changed. i am finding it hard to take you seriously lately.

I've seen a lot of games, and that was far from the best receiving game in Broncos history. Shannon Sharpe's 200 yarder vs. the Chiefs was better. So was Rod Smith's 200 yarder vs. the Falcons, just to name two games from this decade that spring quickly to mind.I used to say that I could name 20 receivers better than Marshall, yes... but I don't have him in my top 5. I have him in my top 5 YOUNG receivers- notice the word "young"? It is an adjective, something that modifies the group "receivers" into a smaller subset and eliminates many of the other receivers that I have ranked above Marshall. Top 5 young receiver != top 5 receiver.For what it's worth, though, I have moved Marshall up in the rankings. I now have him flirting with the top 10, sort of in a bucket with a handful of other guys in a 10th-15th best receiver in the NFL tier. Yes, that is a change from where I had him last year. If you find it hard to take me seriously because my rankings change as players develop and more information becomes available, you must REALLY find it hard to take the FBGs staff seriously- we're talking about one change over the course of a year here, while the FBGs staff makes dozens of changes every week!

He caught 18 of 20 targets? Dude is a BEAST. 20 targets...and yet he's not Cutler's preferred target? Get a clue SSOG.

I never said Marshall wasn't Cutler's primary target. I said that Marshall wasn't Cutler's primary target on 3rd down or in the red zone. Notice Tony Scheffler or Eddie Royal in the red zone yesterday? So did Cutler.

 

[Irish]

I am sorry that you do not own him in any of your leagues.

Not only do I own him, he and Cutler single-handedly won me a game this week. I also tried to acquire Marshall several times through the course of the year last year in my Dynasty league. Better luck next time, though.

At some point you just have to run up the white flag. You fought the good fight. You don't think Marshall will be a top WR in the NFL - we all get that. We understood it last year when you railed about how Walker was the better WR, and when he came back, Marshall would settle back into a good #2 WR.Its time for everyone to move on - projecting Marshall for 87 catches on the year is just funny. If Marshall plays the full year, he will easily crack 100 receptions - and will get close to the 140 he wants if he stays healthy. He is very difficult to cover - because he can beat you deep - so the backs have to lay off him at the line of scrimmage, and when they do - he eats up 8 yards on a quick slant. I think it is pretty clear that he is Cutler's favorite target - so all your nonsense about targets regressing does not take into account the realities on the ground.

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?I do agree that any 87 catch projections have to be adjusted now. 87 grabs in 15 games is 5.8 per game. Even if you think he'll average 5.8 per game the rest of the way out, thanks to his 18 right now he'll still finish with 99. Projections, like rankings, need to be adjusted as the season progresses and as more information becomes available. I've never seen anyone say otherwise.

Dude - just stop. I have to read War and Peace with every post, and it usually praises a guy so you're protected in arguments then knocks em back down to show you weren't/aren't wrong - ever. Wanna Boldin vs. Marshall sig bet? Total fantasy points for the season? All receptions aren't created equal? I liked that one the best. While I have longtime respect for your Bronco insight, you wax poetic like none other trying to make a point stick, no matter what the evidence shows.

Alright, I'll make it nice and succinct for you. Brandon Marshall = one of the top 5 young receivers in the NFL. Brandon Marshall != one of the top 5 receivers in the NFL. This is the same position that I have maintained in all of my posts on the subject. Is that clear and concise? Does that strip out any wiggle room so that I can't later come back and say that I meant something else entirely and that I'm never wrong?About Boldin: No, I don't want to sig bet. Boldin is a better NFL receiver, but Marshall plays with a better QB and has a better running game and worse complementary receivers, making him the better fantasy receiver. And no, not all receptions are created equal. Unless you want to tell me that a -1 yard reception on 3rd and 2 somehow adds value to the team. Derrick Mason actually caught one more ball than Marshall did last year- can you honestly read that and still maintain that all receptions are created equal? Marshall's stat line jumps off the page because of the 18 receptions- without that, his 166/1 would read like any other garden variety big game that we run into every week in the Not For Long. I'm just saying that I don't care how many receptions he had. Not all receptions are created equal. I'm more concerned with how many QUALITY receptions he had.

so catches per target is now replaced by Quality catches? How do we define quality catches and where can we find this info? Seems as if Brandon's bar is constantly being raised and when he reaches, exceeds one bar a new one is put in place. Even when he sets a Denver Bronco record it's treated as another day at the office.I'm not bashing you as I respect your Bronco info and insight but I feel you have been and continue to be off based w/respect to Marshall.

Who says catches per target has been replaced? I still think it's a great metric. There's more than one quality metric out there, though- catches per target, yards per target, success rate, and quality catches (defined as total targets that result in a successful play) are all good metrics for evaluating receivers. Quality catches would actually be Marshall's strongest metric, since it's the only cumulative stat of the four.

Honest to god - What are you talking about? The guy just had the best receiving game in Broncos History and you are talking about quality receptions and Derrick Mason. Move on. You used to say you could name 20 receivers better than Marshall. I see you now have him as a Top 5. Funny how things changed. i am finding it hard to take you seriously lately.

I've seen a lot of games, and that was far from the best receiving game in Broncos history. Shannon Sharpe's 200 yarder vs. the Chiefs was better. So was Rod Smith's 200 yarder vs. the Falcons, just to name two games from this decade that spring quickly to mind.I used to say that I could name 20 receivers better than Marshall, yes... but I don't have him in my top 5. I have him in my top 5 YOUNG receivers- notice the word "young"? It is an adjective, something that modifies the group "receivers" into a smaller subset and eliminates many of the other receivers that I have ranked above Marshall. Top 5 young receiver != top 5 receiver.For what it's worth, though, I have moved Marshall up in the rankings. I now have him flirting with the top 10, sort of in a bucket with a handful of other guys in a 10th-15th best receiver in the NFL tier. Yes, that is a change from where I had him last year. If you find it hard to take me seriously because my rankings change as players develop and more information becomes available, you must REALLY find it hard to take the FBGs staff seriously- we're talking about one change over the course of a year here, while the FBGs staff makes dozens of changes every week!

He caught 18 of 20 targets? Dude is a BEAST. 20 targets...and yet he's not Cutler's preferred target? Get a clue SSOG.

I never said Marshall wasn't Cutler's primary target. I said that Marshall wasn't Cutler's primary target on 3rd down or in the red zone. Notice Tony Scheffler or Eddie Royal in the red zone yesterday? So did Cutler.

All I can say is wow that you would rather have an over the hill Holt, injury prone Colston, Boldin and AJ, and fellow hot head Steve Smith over Marshall.

 

[az_prof]

Funny that you guys are beating up on SSOG when he makes some goods points. He's stated is that Marshall is a top 5 WR. Any arguments there? He's stated Marshall won't be the top ff WR and gives reason why. 1 WR Boldin, Anquan ARI 1 0 0 0 6 140 3 0 32.0 2 WR Moss, Santana WAS 1 1 27 0 7 164 1 0 25.1 3 WR Johnson, Calvin DET 1 0 0 0 6 129 2 0 24.9 4 WR Marshall, Brandon DEN 1 0 0 0 18 166 1 0 22.6 5 WR Chambers, Chris SD 1 0 0 0 4 83 2 0 20.3 6 WR Jennings, Greg GB 1 0 0 0 6 167 0 0 16.7Even with the second most receptions all time in a game, he finished #4 for the week. Maybe some of you should work on your reading comprehension instead of bashing someone who's bringing some insight to the thread that doesn't jive with the herd.

Those numbers are different if you play in PPR leagues--and I don't think I need to tell you who was #1.

 

[BassNBrew]

Funny that you guys are beating up on SSOG when he makes some goods points. He's stated is that Marshall is a top 5 WR. Any arguments there? He's stated Marshall won't be the top ff WR and gives reason why. 1 WR Boldin, Anquan ARI 1 0 0 0 6 140 3 0 32.0 2 WR Moss, Santana WAS 1 1 27 0 7 164 1 0 25.1 3 WR Johnson, Calvin DET 1 0 0 0 6 129 2 0 24.9 4 WR Marshall, Brandon DEN 1 0 0 0 18 166 1 0 22.6 5 WR Chambers, Chris SD 1 0 0 0 4 83 2 0 20.3 6 WR Jennings, Greg GB 1 0 0 0 6 167 0 0 16.7Even with the second most receptions all time in a game, he finished #4 for the week. Maybe some of you should work on your reading comprehension instead of bashing someone who's bringing some insight to the thread that doesn't jive with the herd.

Those numbers are different if you play in PPR leagues--and I don't think I need to tell you who was #1.

And they're different in TD only leagues, TD distance leagues, and minus ppr leagues.

 

[Jayrod]

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?

"Have been" is the key phrase.Marshall is easily better RIGHT NOW than Holt, Boldin, Wayne, AJ & Colston. The rest is debatable (and you forgot Edwards who is better than a couple on your list).

I'd rank them:

1- Moss - freak of nature

2- Owens - slightly older freak of nature

3- Fitz - can do it all

4- Calvin - can do it all and likely #1 once Moss fades

5- Marshall - only knock is he's not quite as quick as the guys above

6- SSmith - small, but fearless and fast, fast, fast

7- AJ - same mold as Marshall, but can't stay healthy

8- Wayne - talented, but benefits greatly from Manning (not in same class as those above)

9- Edwards - too suspect of hands, otherwise has it all

10- Boldin - speed is an issue, but a beast and great hands

11- Colston - same as Boldin, but injury prone

12- Holt - done being elite last year..next Marvin Harrison

 

[SSOG]

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?

"Have been" is the key phrase.Marshall is easily better RIGHT NOW than Holt, Boldin, Wayne, AJ & Colston. The rest is debatable (and you forgot Edwards who is better than a couple on your list).

I'd rank them:

1- Moss - freak of nature

2- Owens - slightly older freak of nature

3- Fitz - can do it all

4- Calvin - can do it all and likely #1 once Moss fades

5- Marshall - only knock is he's not quite as quick as the guys above

6- SSmith - small, but fearless and fast, fast, fast

7- AJ - same mold as Marshall, but can't stay healthy

8- Wayne - talented, but benefits greatly from Manning (not in same class as those above)

9- Edwards - too suspect of hands, otherwise has it all

10- Boldin - speed is an issue, but a beast and great hands

11- Colston - same as Boldin, but injury prone

12- Holt - done being elite last year..next Marvin Harrison

I didn't forget Edwards, I was simply only going to list 10 players. Outside of Edwards, Lee Evans and Santonio Holmes were notable omissions of receivers who I think are at least comparable to Brandon Marshall. I was just trying to go with the least controversial 10 to try and build some consensus.Let me start by saying thank you, I really appreciate you actually responding to my list with one of your own. It provides a great starting point for some productive discussion. Of the 7 receivers you have ranked behind Marshall, here's why I have them ranked ahead.

Andre Johnson- he's even more of a physical freak than Marshall. He's just as big and strong, but he's significantly faster. Also, just because he's not healthy right now doesn't mean he CAN'T stay healthy- or do you believe that Tom Brady can't stay healthy, either? If Brett Favre breaks his thumb, then can he not stay healthy? Any player can be injured at any given time, and Fred Taylor has demonstrated that even when we think a player is injury prone, they're usually not- it's usually nothing more than bad luck.

Reggie Wayne- Perhaps the best receiver in the NFL when the ball is not in his hands. He's always exactly where he's supposed to be, exactly when he's supposed to be there, with no defender anywhere near him. He's not the physical freak that a lot of the WRs on this list are, but he is soooo silky smooth.

Edwards- I didn't put him in the top 10 because his hands are mediocre, and hands are just too important to a WR. I have him ranked below Marshall, actually.

Boldin- his speed hasn't been an issue yet, as he holds the NFL record for most career yards per game. There might be reasons to nitpick Boldin's game, but the simple fact is that he's produced big-time numbers for several years with absolute dreck at QB. He's as good as Marshall after the catch, and marginally better before the catch. He's also got something else in common with Marshall- they're both extremely willing blockers.

Colston- It's hard to argue with results. Colston actually holds the record for most receptions through 2 seasons, despite missing two games (if you pro-rate his stats, he really laps the field, with 179 receptions while Larry Fitzgerald, the #2 guy, only has 161). What I like most about Colston is his consistency- from play to play, week to week, and so far, from season to season.

Holt- I still think he runs the best routes in the NFL outside of Harrison, and he's just got such an incredibly versatile repertoire of ways he can beat you. This is looking like his last hurrah- as the season progresses and I see more, I suspect I'm going to be dropping him a lot, but he's proven so much over the course of his career that I'm willing to give him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.

 

[menobrown]

It's not only possible Marshall will be #1 but with no Brady, Peyton looking rusty, the Cowboys lack of healthy WR's and Bree's loss of Colston I'd say Cutler has a chance to be #1 as well. I think we see a transformation of the Broncos from a running team to a passing team.

Cutler owner?

Not such a silly thought now is it?

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?

"Have been" is the key phrase.Marshall is easily better RIGHT NOW than Holt, Boldin, Wayne, AJ & Colston. The rest is debatable (and you forgot Edwards who is better than a couple on your list).

I'd rank them:

1- Moss - freak of nature

2- Owens - slightly older freak of nature

3- Fitz - can do it all

4- Calvin - can do it all and likely #1 once Moss fades

5- Marshall - only knock is he's not quite as quick as the guys above

6- SSmith - small, but fearless and fast, fast, fast

7- AJ - same mold as Marshall, but can't stay healthy

8- Wayne - talented, but benefits greatly from Manning (not in same class as those above)

9- Edwards - too suspect of hands, otherwise has it all

10- Boldin - speed is an issue, but a beast and great hands

11- Colston - same as Boldin, but injury prone

12- Holt - done being elite last year..next Marvin Harrison

I didn't forget Edwards, I was simply only going to list 10 players. Outside of Edwards, Lee Evans and Santonio Holmes were notable omissions of receivers who I think are at least comparable to Brandon Marshall. I was just trying to go with the least controversial 10 to try and build some consensus.Let me start by saying thank you, I really appreciate you actually responding to my list with one of your own. It provides a great starting point for some productive discussion. Of the 7 receivers you have ranked behind Marshall, here's why I have them ranked ahead.

Andre Johnson- he's even more of a physical freak than Marshall. He's just as big and strong, but he's significantly faster. Also, just because he's not healthy right now doesn't mean he CAN'T stay healthy- or do you believe that Tom Brady can't stay healthy, either? If Brett Favre breaks his thumb, then can he not stay healthy? Any player can be injured at any given time, and Fred Taylor has demonstrated that even when we think a player is injury prone, they're usually not- it's usually nothing more than bad luck.

Reggie Wayne- Perhaps the best receiver in the NFL when the ball is not in his hands. He's always exactly where he's supposed to be, exactly when he's supposed to be there, with no defender anywhere near him. He's not the physical freak that a lot of the WRs on this list are, but he is soooo silky smooth.

Edwards- I didn't put him in the top 10 because his hands are mediocre, and hands are just too important to a WR. I have him ranked below Marshall, actually.

Boldin- his speed hasn't been an issue yet, as he holds the NFL record for most career yards per game. There might be reasons to nitpick Boldin's game, but the simple fact is that he's produced big-time numbers for several years with absolute dreck at QB. He's as good as Marshall after the catch, and marginally better before the catch. He's also got something else in common with Marshall- they're both extremely willing blockers.

Colston- It's hard to argue with results. Colston actually holds the record for most receptions through 2 seasons, despite missing two games (if you pro-rate his stats, he really laps the field, with 179 receptions while Larry Fitzgerald, the #2 guy, only has 161). What I like most about Colston is his consistency- from play to play, week to week, and so far, from season to season.

Holt- I still think he runs the best routes in the NFL outside of Harrison, and he's just got such an incredibly versatile repertoire of ways he can beat you. This is looking like his last hurrah- as the season progresses and I see more, I suspect I'm going to be dropping him a lot, but he's proven so much over the course of his career that I'm willing to give him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.

MAN YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK SAMRT W/EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD! LOLOLOL

 

[Steeler43]

It's not only possible Marshall will be #1 but with no Brady, Peyton looking rusty, the Cowboys lack of healthy WR's and Bree's loss of Colston I'd say Cutler has a chance to be #1 as well. I think we see a transformation of the Broncos from a running team to a passing team.

Cutler owner?

Not such a silly thought now is it?

Honestly no, but I haven't looked at the Broncos schedule to check if they eventually face decent defenses.

 

[Courtjester]

It's not only possible Marshall will be #1 but with no Brady, Peyton looking rusty, the Cowboys lack of healthy WR's and Bree's loss of Colston I'd say Cutler has a chance to be #1 as well. I think we see a transformation of the Broncos from a running team to a passing team.

Cutler owner?

Not such a silly thought now is it?

Honestly no, but I haven't looked at the Broncos schedule to check if they eventually face decent defenses.

They have the 4th easiest SOS this year....

 

[Rovers]

That's not what I said at all. I stated very clearly that I think Marshall is one of the top 5 young receivers. I think he WILL BE a top WR in the NFL. I think he ISN'T NOW a top WR in the NFL. I can name 10 WRs I'd rather have if playing an NFL (not fantasy) game tomorrow (Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, Calvin Johnson). All of those guys have been just as studly as Marshall, so how is this assertion so controversial?

"Have been" is the key phrase.Marshall is easily better RIGHT NOW than Holt, Boldin, Wayne, AJ & Colston. The rest is debatable (and you forgot Edwards who is better than a couple on your list).

I'd rank them:

1- Moss - freak of nature

2- Owens - slightly older freak of nature

3- Fitz - can do it all

4- Calvin - can do it all and likely #1 once Moss fades

5- Marshall - only knock is he's not quite as quick as the guys above

6- SSmith - small, but fearless and fast, fast, fast

7- AJ - same mold as Marshall, but can't stay healthy

8- Wayne - talented, but benefits greatly from Manning (not in same class as those above)

9- Edwards - too suspect of hands, otherwise has it all

10- Boldin - speed is an issue, but a beast and great hands

11- Colston - same as Boldin, but injury prone

12- Holt - done being elite last year..next Marvin Harrison

I didn't forget Edwards, I was simply only going to list 10 players. Outside of Edwards, Lee Evans and Santonio Holmes were notable omissions of receivers who I think are at least comparable to Brandon Marshall. I was just trying to go with the least controversial 10 to try and build some consensus.Let me start by saying thank you, I really appreciate you actually responding to my list with one of your own. It provides a great starting point for some productive discussion. Of the 7 receivers you have ranked behind Marshall, here's why I have them ranked ahead.

Andre Johnson- he's even more of a physical freak than Marshall. He's just as big and strong, but he's significantly faster. Also, just because he's not healthy right now doesn't mean he CAN'T stay healthy- or do you believe that Tom Brady can't stay healthy, either? If Brett Favre breaks his thumb, then can he not stay healthy? Any player can be injured at any given time, and Fred Taylor has demonstrated that even when we think a player is injury prone, they're usually not- it's usually nothing more than bad luck.

Reggie Wayne- Perhaps the best receiver in the NFL when the ball is not in his hands. He's always exactly where he's supposed to be, exactly when he's supposed to be there, with no defender anywhere near him. He's not the physical freak that a lot of the WRs on this list are, but he is soooo silky smooth.

Edwards- I didn't put him in the top 10 because his hands are mediocre, and hands are just too important to a WR. I have him ranked below Marshall, actually.

Boldin- his speed hasn't been an issue yet, as he holds the NFL record for most career yards per game. There might be reasons to nitpick Boldin's game, but the simple fact is that he's produced big-time numbers for several years with absolute dreck at QB. He's as good as Marshall after the catch, and marginally better before the catch. He's also got something else in common with Marshall- they're both extremely willing blockers.

Colston- It's hard to argue with results. Colston actually holds the record for most receptions through 2 seasons, despite missing two games (if you pro-rate his stats, he really laps the field, with 179 receptions while Larry Fitzgerald, the #2 guy, only has 161). What I like most about Colston is his consistency- from play to play, week to week, and so far, from season to season.

Holt- I still think he runs the best routes in the NFL outside of Harrison, and he's just got such an incredibly versatile repertoire of ways he can beat you. This is looking like his last hurrah- as the season progresses and I see more, I suspect I'm going to be dropping him a lot, but he's proven so much over the course of his career that I'm willing to give him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years.

It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace.

The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

 

[thatguy]

That TD catch he had today was amazing.

 

[SSOG]

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years. It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace. The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

Sorry, I totally forgot that the purpose of the Shark Pool was to relentlessly snuff out all dissenting opinions, no matter how reasonably and rationally they are defended.Terrell Owens is a 5-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1216/12 per 16 games for his career, and who has averaged 1385/15 per 16 games over the past 4 years and beginning of this year. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.

 

[Phlash]

Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.

Wait what? We must have different definitions of shatter, because beating a record of 22 TDs with a new record of 23 TDs doesn't count as shattering to me. Especially when the old record was set in 12 games, and the new record was set in 16 games.

 

[Raider Nation]

Marshall HAS to be everyone's # 1 on all "2008 going forward" lists, especially with the dud T.O. delivered tonight.

 

[SSOG]

Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.

Wait what? We must have different definitions of shatter, because beating a record of 22 TDs with a new record of 23 TDs doesn't count as shattering to me. Especially when the old record was set in 12 games, and the new record was set in 16 games.

My bad, I was thinking that the old record was 20. Point still stands- 23 TDs last season. Widely acknowledged as the most physically gifted receiver to ever suit up. Most dominant receiver since Don Hutson. The guy credited with single-handedly turning Daunte Culpepper into an NFL player. Erroneously so, but I digress...The point is that Randy Moss had more than twice as many TDs last year as Marshall has in his entire career. If it's stupid to say that Moss is a better receiver than Marshall, then I'll gladly ride the short bus to work tomorrow.

 

[Rovers]

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years. It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace. The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

Sorry, I totally forgot that the purpose of the Shark Pool was to relentlessly snuff out all dissenting opinions, no matter how reasonably and rationally they are defended.Terrell Owens is a 5-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1216/12 per 16 games for his career, and who has averaged 1385/15 per 16 games over the past 4 years and beginning of this year. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.

Selective quotations... weak comeback. What YOU said: If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.What I said: To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumbYou just keep up with the lame justifications to support your disproven opinion, and butcher what people say on debate to deflect the arguement away from your now disproven opinion... and your credibility, which was once quite high with me (not thea you care) sinks to ever deepening levels. You are now living a bunker mentality, one which precludes objective thought. Have fun there... and I hope you have foodstuffs and a can opener.

 

[Judge Smails]

Don't bother debating SSOG. Spin like a politician, backtrack like a crab, rinse, repeat.

 

[Bojang0301]

It is scary how much confidence Cutler and Marshall have in each other. Talent wise they are one of the best QB/WR combo's ever assembled. If Marshall can keep his head on straight this offense will be very, very good for a long time to come.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years. It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace. The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

Sorry, I totally forgot that the purpose of the Shark Pool was to relentlessly snuff out all dissenting opinions, no matter how reasonably and rationally they are defended.Terrell Owens is a 5-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1216/12 per 16 games for his career, and who has averaged 1385/15 per 16 games over the past 4 years and beginning of this year. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.

I would bet $$$ u have never won your fantasy league. Your invited to mine next time we have an opening... And your coment about the shark pool.... I didn't realize guppies posted here.

 

[thatguy]

Marshall HAS to be everyone's # 1 on all "2008 going forward" lists, especially with the dud T.O. delivered tonight.

Very possibly... What's scary is that despite the great day he had, he left a lot on the field. He could have conceivably had 2 more TD's and 60 or 70 more yards. BMarsh doesn't usually miss those opportunities.

 

[SSOG]

Selective quotations... weak comeback. What YOU said: If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.What I said: To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumbYou just keep up with the lame justifications to support your disproven opinion, and butcher what people say on debate to deflect the arguement away from your now disproven opinion... and your credibility, which was once quite high with me (not thea you care) sinks to ever deepening levels. You are now living a bunker mentality, one which precludes objective thought. Have fun there... and I hope you have foodstuffs and a can opener.

Questions: Is it dumb to think that Moss is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Owens is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Fitzgerald is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Wayne is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Andre Johnson is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Smiff is better than Marshall? How about Boldin? How about Colston? How about Calvin Johnson? Which of those individual assertions is dumb- it's hard to craft a defense when you aren't letting me know what I should be defending. I listed 10 WRs I thought were better, you told me that I was a moron and specifically mentioned both Owens and Moss by name, I defended my selection of Owens and Moss, and now you're saying I'm "living a bunker mentality" because I defended the only concrete claim that you disagreed with (you disagreed with my assertion that Marshall wasn't top 5, but only mentioned Moss and Owens as WRs you'd take him over).And you're accusing ME of weak arguments? I say that SO FAR Colston has demonstrated season-to-season consistency and you say "Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years.". No duh, Sherlock- hence the "so far". You then make stuff up, claiming that if Marshall keeps up his current pace for 10 years I'll say he's not a HoFer (newsflash: if Marshall averages 160 yards per game for the next 10 years, he'll be the biggest first-ballot HoF lock in NFL history- at that pace, over that time frame, he will have shattered Rice's record by almost 3000 yards). You also assert that Marshall has no flaws in his play on the field. Newsflash: NO ONE has no flaws in their play on the field. One of us isn't objective here, and it certainly isn't me.

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years. It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace. The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

Sorry, I totally forgot that the purpose of the Shark Pool was to relentlessly snuff out all dissenting opinions, no matter how reasonably and rationally they are defended.Terrell Owens is a 5-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1216/12 per 16 games for his career, and who has averaged 1385/15 per 16 games over the past 4 years and beginning of this year. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.

I would bet $$$ u have never won your fantasy league. Your invited to mine next time we have an opening... And your coment about the shark pool.... I didn't realize guppies posted here.

Wow, speaking of dumb... what a dumb bet to make. I'll take that bet. PM me and I'll send you the address you can send that cash to.

 

[SSOG]

Summary of this thread so far-

SSoG: Marshall's not one of the top 10 receivers in terms of actual NFL ability in the league.

Chorus: You're dumb. Marshall's easily a top 10 fantasy receiver.

SSoG: I said NFL receiver.

Chorus: You're dumb. Marshall's easily a top 10 NFL receiver.

SSoG: Here are 10 receivers that are better.

Chorus: You're dumb. Marshall's way better than them.

SSoG: Here is why they are better.

Chorus: You're dumb and you probably suck at fantasy football.

I've listed 10 names. From now on, I'm not responding to any more ad hominem attacks. If you want to have a coherent debate on why Marshall is better than one of the 10 names I've listed, I'm your man. If you'd rather just sit around and pat yourselves on the back for how much smarter you all are than me, then you'll just have to do it without me.

Once again, those 10 names are Moss, Holt, Owens, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Reggie Wayne, and Calvin Johnson. Other receivers in the running include Greg Jennings, Lee Evans, and Santonio Holmes. Feel free to argue any of those names (hint: if you're looking for me to back off one of the names, I'd start with Torry Holt, because I'm ready to jump off of that one already).

 

[Flossy]

Selective quotations... weak comeback. What YOU said: If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.What I said: To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumbYou just keep up with the lame justifications to support your disproven opinion, and butcher what people say on debate to deflect the arguement away from your now disproven opinion... and your credibility, which was once quite high with me (not thea you care) sinks to ever deepening levels. You are now living a bunker mentality, one which precludes objective thought. Have fun there... and I hope you have foodstuffs and a can opener.

Questions: Is it dumb to think that Moss is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Owens is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Fitzgerald is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Wayne is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Andre Johnson is better than Marshall? Is it dumb to think that Smiff is better than Marshall? How about Boldin? How about Colston? How about Calvin Johnson? Which of those individual assertions is dumb- it's hard to craft a defense when you aren't letting me know what I should be defending. I listed 10 WRs I thought were better, you told me that I was a moron and specifically mentioned both Owens and Moss by name, I defended my selection of Owens and Moss, and now you're saying I'm "living a bunker mentality" because I defended the only concrete claim that you disagreed with (you disagreed with my assertion that Marshall wasn't top 5, but only mentioned Moss and Owens as WRs you'd take him over).And you're accusing ME of weak arguments? I say that SO FAR Colston has demonstrated season-to-season consistency and you say "Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years.". No duh, Sherlock- hence the "so far". You then make stuff up, claiming that if Marshall keeps up his current pace for 10 years I'll say he's not a HoFer (newsflash: if Marshall averages 160 yards per game for the next 10 years, he'll be the biggest first-ballot HoF lock in NFL history- at that pace, over that time frame, he will have shattered Rice's record by almost 3000 yards). You also assert that Marshall has no flaws in his play on the field. Newsflash: NO ONE has no flaws in their play on the field. One of us isn't objective here, and it certainly isn't me.

I think it's time you just admit the truth. Marshall IS one of the best FF AND NFL WR's in the National Football League. In fact, he is top 3 in both cases. Marshall missed a week, but he is the top scoring WR in FF so far, and leads the league in receptions... I believe, as I haven't actually looked at that stat, but he has to be after week 3, adding the fact he missed week 1...Colston? Season to season consistancy? You make it sound like he's been in the NFL for 5 years. It's wierd... I'm guessing you will start a thread in 10 years proclaoming Marshal should not be in the HoF even if he continues at this pace. The only negative with Marshall is his "in trouble" record". On the filed of play, I'll take him over Owens and Moss, for FF anf NFL purposes. To say he isn't top 5 in any evaluation is just plain dumb.

Sorry, I totally forgot that the purpose of the Shark Pool was to relentlessly snuff out all dissenting opinions, no matter how reasonably and rationally they are defended.Terrell Owens is a 5-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1216/12 per 16 games for his career, and who has averaged 1385/15 per 16 games over the past 4 years and beginning of this year. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.If taking either of these two gentlemen over Brandon Marshall is dumb, then u mst b way smrter then me r.

I would bet $$$ u have never won your fantasy league. Your invited to mine next time we have an opening... And your coment about the shark pool.... I didn't realize guppies posted here.

Wow, speaking of dumb... what a dumb bet to make. I'll take that bet. PM me and I'll send you the address you can send that cash to.

I think what bothers people is not necessarily the fact that you were completely wrong about BM, but because you try so hard to save face, that being right is more important than what is being discussed. You can justify anything, and and that is what you are doing, exasperating the alternatives to look good. You went out of your way to support why you thought BM is not yet a Top 10 WR, yet let's put fantasy aside. You're eye for talent, is suspect to say the least. If you can't see why everyone is so cukoo for Marshall and why he is a BEAST, then you might look to a new hobby. You'd think Marshall slept with your wife or something for you to justify him not being in the Top 10 WRs in the NFL. You're the only one that's buying into your sh--.

 

[SSOG]

Marshall HAS to be everyone's # 1 on all "2008 going forward" lists, especially with the dud T.O. delivered tonight.

Very possibly... What's scary is that despite the great day he had, he left a lot on the field. He could have conceivably had 2 more TD's and 60 or 70 more yards. BMarsh doesn't usually miss those opportunities.

Quotes from the game recaps last year. I didn't write these- these are actual quotes from actual FBG game recaps last season:Week 4 - The main focus of the Denver Broncos passing attack in the absence of Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall posted three catches for 23 yards with a seven yard touchdown in the first quarter. Marshall did drop one easy catch and allowed Marlon Jackson to step in front of him for an interception. Walker's hold as the number one option in the Broncos passing game is still secure when he returns from injury.Week 5 - Marshall really stood to have a big game with the absence of Javon Walker, but he simply couldn't capitalize. Perhaps it was the lack of another legitimate weapon in the passing game that caused San Diego to focus so much attention on Marshall. Whatever the case, Marshall rarely had any wiggle room when the ball was thrown his way and the Chargers typically had one or two players draped all over him at all times. About the only time that Marshall did find some room to roam, he took a pass for 26 yards down to the San Diego nine yard line and promptly fumbled the ball away. He was carelessly holding the ball away from his body nearly the entire time, and the smallest jostle from S Marlon McCree knocked the ball loose. Marshall was targeted in the end zone on a deep ball late in the game, but it fell incomplete.Week 7 - Marshall was the de facto number one wide receiver with Javon Walker out with his injured knee, and he responded by leading the team in targets. He suffered from some poor accuracy from Cutler and less than stellar catch attempts early on, but settled in to lead the team in receptions and yardage. Marshall continued to show excellent run after the catch ability, as he rarely went down on first contact and showed good vision and moves in the open field.Week 9 - Marshall was targeted a game high 19 times. He caught only nine of the targets for 96 yards. Marshall was Ramsey's first choice on key short yardage passing plays, including two quick slants on third and fourth down plays in the third quarter. Either play could have resulted in a touchdown, but Ramsey threw the first pass well behind him. The second pass was broken up by the defense. Marshall dropped two passes. Week 15 - Marshall missed three touchdown opportunities in the first half. Two of the plays were broken up by the defense and the other missed opportunity came on a low pass from QB Jay Cutler in front of the end zone which Marshall grabbed but could not corral. He was clutching his arm throughout the game and was forced to spend some time on the sideline in the first quarter. However, the apparent injury did not slow him down or hinder his tenacious style of play as he muscled his way for every possible yard and did not shy away from contact.The game logs are extremely consistent in praising Marshall for his run after the catch ability (which is truly elite, up with Owens and Boldin as clearly the best in the league), but they're also make it clear that Marshall is, in fact, the kind of guy who frequently misses those kind of opportunities. It's okay- Marvin Harrison is terrible after first contact, Moss doesn't have great focus, and Owens doesn't have top-end speed. All three are still HoFers. A WR doesn't have to be amazing at every aspect of the game in order to be an amazing WR.

 

[Raider Nation]

Marshall HAS to be everyone's # 1 on all "2008 going forward" lists, especially with the dud T.O. delivered tonight.

Very possibly... What's scary is that despite the great day he had, he left a lot on the field. He could have conceivably had 2 more TD's and 60 or 70 more yards. BMarsh doesn't usually miss those opportunities.

Quotes from the game recaps last year. I didn't write these- these are actual quotes from actual FBG game recaps last season:Week 4 - The main focus of the Denver Broncos passing attack in the absence of Javon Walker, Brandon Marshall posted three catches for 23 yards with a seven yard touchdown in the first quarter. Marshall did drop one easy catch and allowed Marlon Jackson to step in front of him for an interception. Walker's hold as the number one option in the Broncos passing game is still secure when he returns from injury.Week 5 - Marshall really stood to have a big game with the absence of Javon Walker, but he simply couldn't capitalize. Perhaps it was the lack of another legitimate weapon in the passing game that caused San Diego to focus so much attention on Marshall. Whatever the case, Marshall rarely had any wiggle room when the ball was thrown his way and the Chargers typically had one or two players draped all over him at all times. About the only time that Marshall did find some room to roam, he took a pass for 26 yards down to the San Diego nine yard line and promptly fumbled the ball away. He was carelessly holding the ball away from his body nearly the entire time, and the smallest jostle from S Marlon McCree knocked the ball loose. Marshall was targeted in the end zone on a deep ball late in the game, but it fell incomplete.Week 7 - Marshall was the de facto number one wide receiver with Javon Walker out with his injured knee, and he responded by leading the team in targets. He suffered from some poor accuracy from Cutler and less than stellar catch attempts early on, but settled in to lead the team in receptions and yardage. Marshall continued to show excellent run after the catch ability, as he rarely went down on first contact and showed good vision and moves in the open field.Week 9 - Marshall was targeted a game high 19 times. He caught only nine of the targets for 96 yards. Marshall was Ramsey's first choice on key short yardage passing plays, including two quick slants on third and fourth down plays in the third quarter. Either play could have resulted in a touchdown, but Ramsey threw the first pass well behind him. The second pass was broken up by the defense. Marshall dropped two passes. Week 15 - Marshall missed three touchdown opportunities in the first half. Two of the plays were broken up by the defense and the other missed opportunity came on a low pass from QB Jay Cutler in front of the end zone which Marshall grabbed but could not corral. He was clutching his arm throughout the game and was forced to spend some time on the sideline in the first quarter. However, the apparent injury did not slow him down or hinder his tenacious style of play as he muscled his way for every possible yard and did not shy away from contact.The game logs are extremely consistent in praising Marshall for his run after the catch ability (which is truly elite, up with Owens and Boldin as clearly the best in the league), but they're also make it clear that Marshall is, in fact, the kind of guy who frequently misses those kind of opportunities. It's okay- Marvin Harrison is terrible after first contact, Moss doesn't have great focus, and Owens doesn't have top-end speed. All three are still HoFers. A WR doesn't have to be amazing at every aspect of the game in order to be an amazing WR.

I'm unclear about what last year has to do with this year. Can't someone improve? The guy looks unstoppable.

 

[Judge Smails]

This just in - Helen Keller and Ray Charles can see that Brandon Marshall is uber elite, but SSOG can't. Film at 11.

 

[SSOG]

I think what bothers people is not necessarily the fact that you were completely wrong about BM, but because you try so hard to save face, that being right is more important than what is being discussed. You can justify anything, and and that is what you are doing, exasperating the alternatives to look good. You went out of your way to support why you thought BM is not yet a Top 10 WR, yet let's put fantasy aside. You're eye for talent, is suspect to say the least. If you can't see why everyone is so cukoo for Marshall and why he is a BEAST, then you might look to a new hobby. You'd think Marshall slept with your wife or something for you to justify him not being in the Top 10 WRs in the NFL. You're the only one that's buying into your sh--.

Seems to me my eye for talent served me just fine in 2006 when John Clayton called Chris Chambers one of the top 5 WRs in the league and I claimed that Chambers wasn't an NFL-caliber WR1. I've had my share of misses, too... but I'd rather be wrong every once in a while if it means thinking for myself rather than just accepting anything that the rest of the board comes to a consensus on.

 

[SSOG]

I'm unclear about what last year has to do with this year. Can't someone improve? The guy looks unstoppable.

Of course he can improve. He has improved, and he will continue to improve. I've always maintained that- WRs get better, and Marshall will be no exception. The claim, however, was that Marshall doesn't usually miss those types of plays. If we aren't allowed to consider last year, then "Marshall usually doesn't miss that" just means "Marshall didn't miss that last week".After issuing my challenge multiple times now, I still haven't seen a single person name a single WR on my list that it's ludicrous to suggest is better than Marshall.

 

[Flossy]

Seems to me my eye for talent served me just fine in 2006 when John Clayton called Chris Chambers one of the top 5 WRs in the league and I claimed that Chambers wasn't an NFL-caliber WR1. I've had my share of misses, too... but I'd rather be wrong every once in a while if it means thinking for myself rather than just accepting anything that the rest of the board comes to a consensus on.

Lol. Wow bro. That's all you got? Proving a journalist wrong who has never picked up a football in his life? Have you seen what's going on with his hair?? Quit while you are ahead buddy.

 

[Raider Nation]

After issuing my challenge multiple times now, I still haven't seen a single person name a single WR on my list that it's ludicrous to suggest is better than Marshall.

I think it's because we all are dumbfounded that you think any of them are better than Marshall.Or, let me put it this way. If I own an NFL team and I pluck any WR in the league from his current team, I'm taking Marshall.

 

[Justloveit]

Take any of the WR's in SSOG's top 10, and put them in the current Denver team and give them the same amount of targets Marshall is getting and which of those guys are you CONFIDENT wouldn't be putting up similar numbers to Marshall?

I think most would put up monster numbers in that situation. I don't see why it's such a stretch to say that Marshall may be on the bubble of that top 10. The difference between most of these guys is so tiny that it is more than reasonable to argue one way or the other.

 

[Raider Nation]

Take any of the WR's in SSOG's top 10, and put them in the current Denver team and give them the same amount of targets Marshall is getting and which of those guys are you CONFIDENT wouldn't be putting up similar numbers to Marshall?

Alias check please. SSOG is also fond of capitalizing random words.

 

[Justloveit]

Take any of the WR's in SSOG's top 10, and put them in the current Denver team and give them the same amount of targets Marshall is getting and which of those guys are you CONFIDENT wouldn't be putting up similar numbers to Marshall?

Alias check please. SSOG is also fond of capitalizing random words.

Care to answer my question sunshine?

 

[Raider Nation]

Take any of the WR's in SSOG's top 10, and put them in the current Denver team and give them the same amount of targets Marshall is getting and which of those guys are you CONFIDENT wouldn't be putting up similar numbers to Marshall?

Alias check please. SSOG is also fond of capitalizing random words.

Care to answer my question sunshine?

Sure, princess.Marshall gains a great deal of his yardage after the catch because he is so physically dominant. He swats away cornerbacks like they are in 2nd grade. Man vs. boys. So this isn't solely a "system" issue. Just as I don't think any of the others would be this good in Denver's offense, I also think Marshall would do better than those other guys in their system. Talent is talent.

 

[Ghost Rider]

While I think he will get there sooner than later, I think it is waaaaaay too soon to say that Calvin Johnson is one of the NFL's top 10 WRs. A good argument can be made for the rest of the guys in SSOG's list, although Andre Johnson gets hurt too much for me to consider him truly elite. Yes, he is an awesome talent, but he misses time practically every season.

 

[bad-golfer]

Randy Moss is a 4-time first-team AP All Pro (including last season) who averages 1264/13 per 16 games for his career, and who SHATTERED the receiving TD record last season with 23. He's also a lock for the HoF, and is still playing at a HoF level.

Wait what? We must have different definitions of shatter, because beating a record of 22 TDs with a new record of 23 TDs doesn't count as shattering to me. Especially when the old record was set in 12 games, and the new record was set in 16 games.

My bad, I was thinking that the old record was 20. Point still stands- 23 TDs last season. Widely acknowledged as the most physically gifted receiver to ever suit up. Most dominant receiver since Don Hutson. The guy credited with single-handedly turning Daunte Culpepper into an NFL player. Erroneously so, but I digress...The point is that Randy Moss had more than twice as many TDs last year as Marshall has in his entire career. If it's stupid to say that Moss is a better receiver than Marshall, then I'll gladly ride the short bus to work tomorrow.

Dude all your post are well last year this and that or Moss did this or Ownes did that who cares??Marshall is the BEST WR IN NFL RIGHT NOW . I would not trade the guy for Ownes,Fitz,Moss NO ONE

You can't live in the past

 

[hardcoredx]

SSOG should listen to his sig...you've been pwned

 

[FavreCo]

SSOG should listen to his sig...you've been pwned

Can we all pitch in and buy him a backhoe because the shovel he's using to dig himself out of the hole he has created just ain't gonna cut it.SSOG, dude, give up. You are embarrassing yourself daily trying to defend your Marshall stand.

 

[Topes]

I like Brandon Marshall.

He is a good wide receiver.

I am glad that he is on my team.

Because he is good and scores points for me.

 

[Road Warriors]

After further review, the ruling on the OP's question is:

YES, Brandon Marshall can be the #1 WR in FF this year.

Cutler to Marshall looks like it could be something special for years to come. It should be fun to watch.

 

[brednbuddah]

I like Brandon Marshall.He is a good wide receiver.I am glad that he is on my team.Because he is good and scores points for me.

plain and simple.

 

[Moe Green]

This just in - Helen Keller and Ray Charles can see that Brandon Marshall is uber elite, but SSOG can't. Film at 11.

And they're dead!

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Denver plays KC next week, this thread and all other Marshall-realted threads will be on fire. Marshall has the ability and opportunity to put up a devastating statline (15/225 yds/3) but they might flip the switch to run mode after they're up 40 at the half.

A conservative 10/150/1 (vs KC this week) seems very pedestrian after Marshall nuked the SD secondary a few weeks ago. I have no idea what Marshall's final numbers this week ends up at, but an upside of 300 would not surprise me.

KC cannot stop the run, pass, rookies and 2nd year players over the secondary and inept QB play all point to armegeddon this Sunday and Marshall is on the pale horse.

 

[j3r3m3y]

I think what bothers people is not necessarily the fact that you were completely wrong about BM, but because you try so hard to save face,

This is why I stopped trying to discuss anything with him a few years ago when he took the stand that "Shanny never has used RBBC and there is no reason to believe he will" or something close to that. He held the view point even after it was painfully obvious that he was wrong and explained the split carries as a fluke each and every week for about half the season. Even had it in his sig. SSOG, you do great statistical research, I will give you that.

 

[Teezee]

My first post here at FBG. Wanted to chime in and share some of my thoughts in this thread.

Let’s stack 2 receivers next to each other. Player A vs. Player B. Player A will be Brandon Marshall. Player B will be Terrell Owens since Marshall is most compared to him. Why do people choose to compare Marshall to TO, who in my opinion is the best receiver in football? Because I think you have to compare apples to apples. TO and Marshall are similar in size and stature. You can’t compare TO to a Moss, Wayne, Ocho or Holt because their body type and skill set are different.

I have watched both of these receivers since they have stepped foot into the NFL. I have watched every snap of the last 2 Denver Broncos games, and I'll try my best to shed some light on what I have seen so far in Marshall this season and contrast/compare him to TO.....

HANDS: The hands are what most separates Marshall from TO in my opinion. If you have ever seen TO catch, he does not always use his hands, his hands are lazy, sometimes even clumsy. Marshall, has very vise-like hands, and catches EVERYTHING with his hands/fingers. This is the sign of good hand-eye coordination. If accuracy is the most important thing you look for in a QB, then hand-eye coordination is the most important thing for a WR. Unlike TO, you rarely see Marshall catch with his body or chest/stomach. If you get a chance to watch Denver play, watch Marshall's hands.

BALL TRACKING: The difference between a good receiver and a great receiver is the ability to GO TO the ball. TO is pretty good at this, but Marshall is the second best in the league right now behind Randy Moss at tracking the ball in the air. If you pull up the game tape from Sunday's game vs. New Orleans, watch the way BM goes/jumps/runs towards the rock with AUTHORITY. He does not wait for the ball to fall in his lap, rather he goes to the ball either at its highest point or before the defender can get to it. This takes extreme concentration, to know what defenders are doing and going and at the same time getting to the ball and executing. Plain and simple, BM is a hungry dude. He wants the ball more than the DBs.

ROUTE RUNNING: Why is route running so important? Because the ability to sell your route and consistently get open is what distinguishes Pro Bowl caliber players from your average starter. If you can't get open, your opportunities are diminished.

There are two areas of emphasis when it comes to route running. The upper body (head, shoulders) and the lower body (hips and feet). From all of my years watching TO, he is very upper-body oriented, meaning he sells the route more by using his head, arms and shoulders, while his feet kind of just lag behind. But with that said, TO destroys DBs on the double move seam/post route because he is so good at using his upper body.

In general, tall and David Boston yoked-like receivers usually run sloppy routes and have lazy feet. But at 6’3 220+, TO, Marshall, Colston and Andre Johnson are the lone exceptions, they run routes like they are 5’10 because they have very good feet. Braylon Edwards runs sloppy routes. Larry Fitzgerald is pretty good but I think if there is one area he can improve on, it is his route running. You ever wonder why scouts always mention guys like Wayne, Harrison, Holt or a Bruce as being the best route runners? Because they get their feet down quicker. Their legs are shorter and closer to the ground, long strides are not conducive to precise route running. The more time your feet are off the ground, the less precision. TO has very long strides but he makes up for this because he is just so damn explosive.

Now watch Marshall. At the early 5 to 10 yard stage of his route, his feet are very light off the ground. As he hits his break, when he digs, his feet are very much into the ground, he sells the route as good as anybody by using his head, hips and shoulders. Fleet footed 6’3 receivers don’t come around very often. I’ve only seen Andre Johnson do this as good as Marshall.

EXPLOSIVENESS: What TO has on Marshall is explosiveness. The first step, the initial burst. He explodes and gets into high gear faster than anyone in the league outside of Randy Moss. This game is all about spurts, accelerating and decelerating. TO is great at this and it is why he gets so much separation on defenders. There is speed and deep speed. Moss is The GOAT at this. TO is right behind Moss as far as that 4th and 5th gear.

STRENGTH: TO is the most physical receiver in the game. You can't arm tackle him. His legs are too strong for DBs to go low, if you go high on him he will use the stiff arm better than anyone in the league. But Marshall has shown he has a little TO in him. He runs angry and is very hard to bring down for a cornerback. Marshall is right up there with TO in terms of physicality.

RUNNING: What TO does better than anyone else in the league is his ability to run after the catch. He is the only guy in the game who can take a 5 yard hitch route and take it to the house every time. But I have seen BM consistently throughout a game, where he is one step from taking it all the way. He has that same killer instinct that TO has, he just has to finish. It is an instinct that I am sure he will improve as he gains more experience because he consistently gets to the second level. But TO is still the KING at this and I wonder if we will ever see a WR as great as he is at doing this.

AGILITY: TO has tight hips, seems to be very stiff at times. Marshall has very loose hips, they look like they are on a swivel. This is what you like to look for in DBs, the ability to turn your body while keeping your head still and not losing sight of where you and the ball are. Marshall is also more agile, he’s no robot out there. His body control, especially in the air puts TO to shame. Watch the highlights from any of his 18 catches in Week 2 against Antonio Cromartie and SD for reference and you’ll know what I'm talkin about. Some of the catches that Marshall made, you will never see TO catch those kind of passes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even mentioning the few things that I feel TO has on BM at this point, he really isn't that far behind TO at all. Remember Marshall is only in his 3rd season while TO is a 13-year vet. To see that BM is spoken in the same breath as TO is a compliment in itself. Plus, the things you look for in a WR, at least to me, I feel Marshall does better right now and that is 1) hands 2) going to the ball 3) route running. Explosiveness and speed are great intangibles to have but I respect the fundamentals more, being able to execute is extremely important. And then follow that up with blocking, and TO has him there as he is a tenacious blocker.

I will not argue who is more explosive or who is the better game breaker or who has the better nose for the endzone. TO has him in all those areas because he has been doing it for so long, that is why he is so regarded by many. But I think there are some intangibles that Marshall possesses that TO lacks and those things are key components of HOF material. Marshall is a special FOOTBALL PLAYER. He's not some glorified athlete who runs a 4.3 40, has a 50 inch vert., and bench presses 500 lbs. but does not own a lick of football instinct. Marshall gobbles up the football, with his hands. He catches everything and he does that better than TO, right now. That is all I care about for a receiver, can he catch it if I throw it to him? Can he go get it near the sideline? Will he go get it in a crowd? In the middle thru traffic?

With all that being said, I am not going to crown Marshall as the best receiver in the game. Yet. But he is the closest thing we have in this league to Terrell Owens. Marshall is a BEAST. He is one of the Top 3 wide receivers in the game, right now.

 

[Raider Nation]

Welcome, Teezee. That's an impressive first post. Don't be a stranger.

 

[Young 8]

My first post here at FBG. Wanted to chime in and share some of my thoughts in this thread.

Let’s stack 2 receivers next to each other. Player A vs. Player B. Player A will be Brandon Marshall. Player B will be Terrell Owens since Marshall is most compared to him. Why do people choose to compare Marshall to TO, who in my opinion is the best receiver in football? Because I think you have to compare apples to apples. TO and Marshall are similar in size and stature. You can’t compare TO to a Moss, Wayne, Ocho or Holt because their body type and skill set are different.

I have watched both of these receivers since they have stepped foot into the NFL. I have watched every snap of the last 2 Denver Broncos games, and I'll try my best to shed some light on what I have seen so far in Marshall this season and contrast/compare him to TO.....

HANDS: The hands are what most separates Marshall from TO in my opinion. If you have ever seen TO catch, he does not always use his hands, his hands are lazy, sometimes even clumsy. Marshall, has very vise-like hands, and catches EVERYTHING with his hands/fingers. This is the sign of good hand-eye coordination. If accuracy is the most important thing you look for in a QB, then hand-eye coordination is the most important thing for a WR. Unlike TO, you rarely see Marshall catch with his body or chest/stomach. If you get a chance to watch Denver play, watch Marshall's hands.

BALL TRACKING: The difference between a good receiver and a great receiver is the ability to GO TO the ball. TO is pretty good at this, but Marshall is the second best in the league right now behind Randy Moss at tracking the ball in the air. If you pull up the game tape from Sunday's game vs. New Orleans, watch the way BM goes/jumps/runs towards the rock with AUTHORITY. He does not wait for the ball to fall in his lap, rather he goes to the ball either at its highest point or before the defender can get to it. This takes extreme concentration, to know what defenders are doing and going and at the same time getting to the ball and executing. Plain and simple, BM is a hungry dude. He wants the ball more than the DBs.

ROUTE RUNNING: Why is route running so important? Because the ability to sell your route and consistently get open is what distinguishes Pro Bowl caliber players from your average starter. If you can't get open, your opportunities are diminished.

There are two areas of emphasis when it comes to route running. The upper body (head, shoulders) and the lower body (hips and feet). From all of my years watching TO, he is very upper-body oriented, meaning he sells the route more by using his head, arms and shoulders, while his feet kind of just lag behind. But with that said, TO destroys DBs on the double move seam/post route because he is so good at using his upper body.

In general, tall and David Boston yoked-like receivers usually run sloppy routes and have lazy feet. But at 6’3 220+, TO, Marshall, Colston and Andre Johnson are the lone exceptions, they run routes like they are 5’10 because they have very good feet. Braylon Edwards runs sloppy routes. Larry Fitzgerald is pretty good but I think if there is one area he can improve on, it is his route running. You ever wonder why scouts always mention guys like Wayne, Harrison, Holt or a Bruce as being the best route runners? Because they get their feet down quicker. Their legs are shorter and closer to the ground, long strides are not conducive to precise route running. The more time your feet are off the ground, the less precision. TO has very long strides but he makes up for this because he is just so damn explosive.

Now watch Marshall. At the early 5 to 10 yard stage of his route, his feet are very light off the ground. As he hits his break, when he digs, his feet are very much into the ground, he sells the route as good as anybody by using his head, hips and shoulders. Fleet footed 6’3 receivers don’t come around very often. I’ve only seen Andre Johnson do this as good as Marshall.

EXPLOSIVENESS: What TO has on Marshall is explosiveness. The first step, the initial burst. He explodes and gets into high gear faster than anyone in the league outside of Randy Moss. This game is all about spurts, accelerating and decelerating. TO is great at this and it is why he gets so much separation on defenders. There is speed and deep speed. Moss is The GOAT at this. TO is right behind Moss as far as that 4th and 5th gear.

STRENGTH: TO is the most physical receiver in the game. You can't arm tackle him. His legs are too strong for DBs to go low, if you go high on him he will use the stiff arm better than anyone in the league. But Marshall has shown he has a little TO in him. He runs angry and is very hard to bring down for a cornerback. Marshall is right up there with TO in terms of physicality.

RUNNING: What TO does better than anyone else in the league is his ability to run after the catch. He is the only guy in the game who can take a 5 yard hitch route and take it to the house every time. But I have seen BM consistently throughout a game, where he is one step from taking it all the way. He has that same killer instinct that TO has, he just has to finish. It is an instinct that I am sure he will improve as he gains more experience because he consistently gets to the second level. But TO is still the KING at this and I wonder if we will ever see a WR as great as he is at doing this.

AGILITY: TO has tight hips, seems to be very stiff at times. Marshall has very loose hips, they look like they are on a swivel. This is what you like to look for in DBs, the ability to turn your body while keeping your head still and not losing sight of where you and the ball are. Marshall is also more agile, he’s no robot out there. His body control, especially in the air puts TO to shame. Watch the highlights from any of his 18 catches in Week 2 against Antonio Cromartie and SD for reference and you’ll know what I'm talkin about. Some of the catches that Marshall made, you will never see TO catch those kind of passes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even mentioning the few things that I feel TO has on BM at this point, he really isn't that far behind TO at all. Remember Marshall is only in his 3rd season while TO is a 13-year vet. To see that BM is spoken in the same breath as TO is a compliment in itself. Plus, the things you look for in a WR, at least to me, I feel Marshall does better right now and that is 1) hands 2) going to the ball 3) route running. Explosiveness and speed are great intangibles to have but I respect the fundamentals more, being able to execute is extremely important. And then follow that up with blocking, and TO has him there as he is a tenacious blocker.

I will not argue who is more explosive or who is the better game breaker or who has the better nose for the endzone. TO has him in all those areas because he has been doing it for so long, that is why he is so regarded by many. But I think there are some intangibles that Marshall possesses that TO lacks and those things are key components of HOF material. Marshall is a special FOOTBALL PLAYER. He's not some glorified athlete who runs a 4.3 40, has a 50 inch vert., and bench presses 500 lbs. but does not own a lick of football instinct. Marshall gobbles up the football, with his hands. He catches everything and he does that better than TO, right now. That is all I care about for a receiver, can he catch it if I throw it to him? Can he go get it near the sideline? Will he go get it in a crowd? In the middle thru traffic?

With all that being said, I am not going to crown Marshall as the best receiver in the game. Yet. But he is the closest thing we have in this league to Terrell Owens. Marshall is a BEAST. He is one of the Top 3 wide receivers in the game, right now.

thanks man, great post