Buffalo Safety-Damar Hamlin is awake and **Bills at Bengals** Game has been Canceled (1 Viewer)

[Bracie Smathers]

For those wanting to search, Skip Bayless is a despicable human being.

Picture of Skip Bayless

Picture of his doppelganger

 

[FairWarning]

Aikman with the really good point that they were literally trying to save the Bills’ teammate right as they watched on.

These guys may need some serious grief counseling. The NFL is a ****ing monster if they have these guys play within the next 48 hours let alone tonight.

The nfl knew he needed cpr and an aed and still suggested a 5 minute warmup! It’s wild how evil they are.

Truly are just gladiators to them

I probably shouldn't even post this. But, a little bit excessive reactions ... "It's wild how evil they are"? I get it, it's a very serious situation. I never, ever, ever expected a postponement, even if a player died on the field. It's happened before. I know everyone on earth may hate me for saying it, but I just don't get how it's so extrmely obvious that no one can play football. Sometimes a player has a loved one pass away and still makes a rational decision whether to play the next day, or the same day, whatever it may be. Maybe it's different when they see the guy up close. I can 100% understand postponing the game. But I can't understand not understanding not postponing the game.

To be clear. I don't mind if the game is postponed, I'm not saying "how dare they take away my football game!" It just surprises me how unanimous and vehement the reations are.

Because there are actual human beings playing the game who may have just seen a teammate, friend, hell just another human being, potentially die on the field right in front of them

Good point. Which asks the question: if he is in critical condition or worse, heaven forbid, how do these two teams take the field anytime soon in the coming days?

Buffalo could use it as a rallying point also., like win one for the Gipper.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

The Bengals lost Chris Henry and played 3 days later. It sucks but things happen. Not trying to sound like "get over it", if anyone is too affected to play even by Sunday then that is okay for them to not play, but life just goes on for most people.

ETA: And life just goes on does not mean forget about it, it just means that life goes on.

It's one thing to lose someone you're close to and another thing to watch them die. Wildly different trauma IMO

This is really true.

I lost one of my best friends in my early 20s. Literally a guy I hung out with almost every day.(He lived two apartments over and worked at the same place as me) He was in a car accident and died on the scene. It was devastating, but after grieving I got over it and remembered him for the good times we had. Still think about him and wish he were around, but fond memories not devastated hurt.

We had a buddy that was an EMT. Not a real close friend, but someone who we'd hang out with if we saw him at the bar or at some event etc., but not someone who we'd make specific plans to hang with. He was one of the guys on the call for the accident. Was there when our buddy died. It took him years to get over it. He quit being an EMT, had a struggle with alcohol for a number of years. That affected him hugely. I can only assume that the difference was in witnessing our friend die versus just hearing about it.

Right. Folks who are enduring PTSD are stuck in the event. I've sat next to guys talk about what they witnessed in the Gulf of Tonkin (Aug, 1964) and you get the impression they were recounting something that happened last week.

These comments also splintered off to a mention of Jovan Belcher, with the interesting choice of phrasing "even if you assign some fault to mental health." Both Chris Henry and Belcher were diagnosed postmortem with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a neurological disorder where many repeated head injuries can affect someone's brain function over time, enough to interfere with the person's normal or working life.

We don't know enough about CTE. AFAIK we currently cannot test for CTE amongst the living. Research facilities at the VA and leading universities (Harvard, John Hopkins) have brain banks - I think the preferred nomenclature is Brain Resource Centre - where thousands of brain tissues samples are being studied.

Pat McAfee pointed out yesterday that the NFL is the place where "you move the drill ten yards." In his first NFL training camp, someone suffered a torn ACL/MCL ....and while the medical staff attended to the athlete who had just suffered a career-threatening injury, the coaches moved the cones 10 so they could continue the drill they were working on.

Belcher (multiple TBI, CTE) shot his girlfriend nine times in front of his mother and infant daughter. Then he drove to the Chiefs practice facility and thanked GM Scott Pioli (and HC Romeo Crennel) for giving him a chance, kneeled next his Bentley, made the sign of a cross, and pulled the trigger of the handgun he was holding to his own head.

Chiefs won the game the next day. Crennel was fired 4 weeks later and Pioli the week after. Just move the drill ten yards. Let's move on.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

The Bengals lost Chris Henry and played 3 days later. It sucks but things happen. Not trying to sound like "get over it", if anyone is too affected to play even by Sunday then that is okay for them to not play, but life just goes on for most people.

ETA: And life just goes on does not mean forget about it, it just means that life goes on.

Agreed. Some of the reactions to this are getting weird.

 

[The Kerminator]

Does anyone else find themselves skipping over most of the posts in this thread and going directly to growlers posts?

Thanks for the inside info @growlers

 

[BobbyLayne]

Does anyone else find themselves skipping over most of the posts in this thread and going directly to growlers posts?

Thanks for the inside info @growlers

he and @Terminalxylem would be brutal opponents in steel cage Scrabble tourney

 

[Da Guru]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

Probably the same way the employees at the Park City ski resort that had a co-worker die after a tree fell into a lift did the next day...at least those that decided to work. Of course you mental perspective is likely different when you paycheck put groceries on the table next week.

What happened was a freak accident given the amount of games NFL games played. Chuck Hughes died on the field from a non contact heart attack in the 60s.

Youth baseball players have died from getting hit with a line drive in the chest, Chris Pronger collapsed from a puck in the chest. Playing any fast moving contact sport has risk. Of course nobody ever expects or wants something like this to happen and hopefully he makes a full recovery.

Police and fireman lose their partners and coworkers and have to be on the job the next day as right or wrong it is their job. Look across the country at workers who die accidental deaths on the job. Roofers fall to their deaths, factory workers have been maimed or killed.

It happens all the time but nobody actually sees it happen like this incident. We just read a blurb and think "That is too bad"

That is what makes this so different, so difficult to digest.

 

[renesauz]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

So you saw the replay....what would you change?

Sorry...this wasn't the fault of football. Sudden cardiac arrest is far from unheard of in young athletes. It's RARE in the NFL where the young athletes are already in their 20s...but hardly a new phenomenon.
Young people do, on rare occasions, die suddenly.

It goes well beyond this one play and you know that.

I'm not the one who blamed this on safety protocols. There are many things that the NFL could do better re. safety. I'm not sure any of those things could have prevented this. In fact...those very protocols are almost certainly the only reason the kid is alive right now

 

[renesauz]

Agree the bolded is extremely important, but are we sure Hamlin had return of spontaneous circulation in seconds? I was under the impression he required ~10 minutes of CPR.

I am not a medical expert, but my understanding is that as soon as CPR begins that blood flow (and oxygen) to the brain resumes and that is the biggest factor in outcome. I don't know how many minutes of CPR were performed before the AED was used and brought his heart back to regular rhythm, or if that even matters as long as the CPR is pumping the blood manually, but the reports say his heartbeat had resumed on its own before he left the field.

High quality CPR can briefly keep someone alive, but it’s no substitute for the return of spontaneous circulation. Because CPR is seldom performed flawlessly, prolonged resuscitation times are associated with worse outcomes, principally from anoxic brain injury (brain damage from not enough oxygenated blood circulating).

Immediate CPR and access to an AED are part of the best case scenario, but prolonged resuscitation (more than 3-4 minutes) is prognostically bad for full recovery. While rare exceptions occur, hardly anyone survives when resuscitation extends beyond 10 minutes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but has it actually been released that he was in ventricular fibrillation? Probably statistically most likely, but that is one of the assumptions I've been cautioning against.
For all we know, he was in ventricular tachycardia with a low enough blood pressure / faint or no pulse that required CPR to be started. My point is, he may have significant blood flow and oxygen delivery in those 9 minutes. This isn't an asystole case. I've had plenty of cardiac cases in v fib v tach that survived fine with 9 minutes of cpr

me too. The cormodium cordis/vfib theory made perfect sense, but it isn't the only possibility. The fact that they needed 10 minutes (supposedly) to get ROSC AND that he coded again at the hospital would lead me to think a congenital issue would make more sense and the "hit" might be a red herring. We are just speculating obviously

A dozen kids die every year during sporting events from sudden cardiac arrests. THis is rare, but hardly unheard of.

 

[renesauz]

Agree the bolded is extremely important, but are we sure Hamlin had return of spontaneous circulation in seconds? I was under the impression he required ~10 minutes of CPR.

I am not a medical expert, but my understanding is that as soon as CPR begins that blood flow (and oxygen) to the brain resumes and that is the biggest factor in outcome. I don't know how many minutes of CPR were performed before the AED was used and brought his heart back to regular rhythm, or if that even matters as long as the CPR is pumping the blood manually, but the reports say his heartbeat had resumed on its own before he left the field.

High quality CPR can briefly keep someone alive, but it’s no substitute for the return of spontaneous circulation. Because CPR is seldom performed flawlessly, prolonged resuscitation times are associated with worse outcomes, principally from anoxic brain injury (brain damage from not enough oxygenated blood circulating).

Immediate CPR and access to an AED are part of the best case scenario, but prolonged resuscitation (more than 3-4 minutes) is prognostically bad for full recovery. While rare exceptions occur, hardly anyone survives when resuscitation extends beyond 10 minutes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but has it actually been released that he was in ventricular fibrillation? Probably statistically most likely, but that is one of the assumptions I've been cautioning against.
For all we know, he was in ventricular tachycardia with a low enough blood pressure / faint or no pulse that required CPR to be started. My point is, he may have significant blood flow and oxygen delivery in those 9 minutes. This isn't an asystole case. I've had plenty of cardiac cases in v fib v tach that survived fine with 9 minutes of cpr

I don’t think any of that info has been released. The only new info is from ESPN’s Coley Harvey reporting that Hamlin’s uncle told him that Hamlin has to be revived a 2nd time after he got to the hospital and that there is concern of lung damage. He also said that they had started Hamlin on 100% oxygen when he first got there but is down to 50% oxygen now.

it is quite common for someone who collapses from a cardiac rhythm issue to have another occurrence. And "lung damage" description may have gone from RN to uncle to EPSN reporter to being reported. Maybe he aspirated a little, maybe he has a pulmonary contusion from the CPR, etc. I wouldn't read anything into any of this stuff at this point, its just noise.

If he doesn't have a pulmonary contusion I'd be worried about brain damage. You need to pump that chest hard AF to move blood to the brain.

i can't give you a % stat or anything but in my experience pulmonary contusions visible on imaging are not routine after CPR. Also, for various reasons people often have abnormal xrays after an arrest, so it would be hard to say some particular spot is a contusion vs something else unless maybe there was an overlying rib fracture visible. I could spit out two dozen reasons why a family member would be told there was some "lung damage"

It's also quite common to start everybody placed on a ventilator at 90-100% and move them down after an ABG in a few hours. NOt meaningful data I'm afraid, especially when communicated via laymen in lay terms

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I don't see them extending the season for all 32 teams just to have a week with one game.
I don't think it gets played.

Plus under this scenario the #1 seed would have 3 weeks off before they played (the NFC team at least, and maybe KC).
I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Right. Any solution will have unfair outcomes, but there's a difference between unfair outcomes that are immediately resolved (ie, Bills and/or Bengals get screwed on playoff seeding) and unfair outcomes that cause ongoing knock-on effects (moving the entire playoff schedule back a week). I think the league will choose the former.

I love the fact that @Insomniac reacted to this post at 4:32 a.m. Way to stay on brand!

 

[ProstheticRGK]

Agree the bolded is extremely important, but are we sure Hamlin had return of spontaneous circulation in seconds? I was under the impression he required ~10 minutes of CPR.

I am not a medical expert, but my understanding is that as soon as CPR begins that blood flow (and oxygen) to the brain resumes and that is the biggest factor in outcome. I don't know how many minutes of CPR were performed before the AED was used and brought his heart back to regular rhythm, or if that even matters as long as the CPR is pumping the blood manually, but the reports say his heartbeat had resumed on its own before he left the field.

High quality CPR can briefly keep someone alive, but it’s no substitute for the return of spontaneous circulation. Because CPR is seldom performed flawlessly, prolonged resuscitation times are associated with worse outcomes, principally from anoxic brain injury (brain damage from not enough oxygenated blood circulating).

Immediate CPR and access to an AED are part of the best case scenario, but prolonged resuscitation (more than 3-4 minutes) is prognostically bad for full recovery. While rare exceptions occur, hardly anyone survives when resuscitation extends beyond 10 minutes.

Based on what you've heard so far, are you discouraged regarding Hamlin's long-term prognosis?

Too few details, and it’s too early, but requiring mechanical ventilation post-resuscitation isn’t ideal. Sometimes a shock is all it takes. On the other hand, it’s good news they needed to sedate him while on the vent, as it suggests enough functionality to fight the tube in his airway.

My wife has been a nurse for 25 years including multiple years in Neurology. She mentioned she thought Hamlin suffered a neurological event after he collapsed and fell based on his arm movements (blood clot, stoke, etc.). She believes he suffered a brain related injury before the entire CPR process even got started (in addition to potential limited blood flow to the brain risk from the extended CPR). That's just her opinion from watching the replay . . . curious if you had an opinion on that. She fears he's more at risk from the neurological event more than the cardiac event.

I think this scenario is extremely unlikely I've run between 1500-2000 codes and IMO this was cardiac based on the information publicly available and visually. He is surely at risk for a neurological event from anoxia, but I think it is very unlikely that the inciting event was neurological in origin

I don’t know the medical terms, but she said his arms / hands were inverted or twitching either as he fell or just after he had fallen. She said that was a classic sign of a neurological event.

This is just myoclonus that occurs commonly when blood pressure drops suddenly. See it all the time with vasovagal syncope. No prognostic or diagnostic value

I appreciate everyone’s contributions, but you sound like you really know your stuff.

Thank you for chiming in.

No problem. I was an NFL UNC for 2 years as well as an ER doc for >20. There is a lot of NFL training we do with the entire sideline team for this exact scenario

Truly appreciate you sharing your perspective (same goes for @Terminalxylem ).

What is the range of outcomes for an event like this? Will there be a point in the next few days/weeks where we can safely say he's out of the woods? Is it possible he has lifelong complications? I believe others have mentioned that Chris Pronger made a full recovery and resumed his career

Range? death to 100% recovery. Not being snarky. Simply too many unknowns for me or anyone else outside the hospital to speculate the outcome. And if he really is in a 48-72 hour hypothermia, likely even they can't tell you as neuro exam is pretty useless in full hypothermia protocol

Yeah, I kinda figured you'd say that

Let me try a different angle: What should we look for over the next few days? Obviously positive reports. What would be a good thing to hear once he's out of the hypothermia protocol?

Again, appreciate you sharing your insights.

Well, i don't know for sure they did hypothermia. It's been reported but who knows where that came from. It was all the rage for awhile after some promising studies but some later studies out of europe made a lot of centers stop doing it nearly as much.
if they can extubate him soon, that's probably the best sign. That would mean he is at least reasonably intact neurologically. Can't do that until hypothermia protocol ends if they are doing it.
Also, they will likely do an EP study as I mentioned earlier. Would maybe do that while he is still on the vent and place an AICD if indicated

Appreciate your input, as well as @Terminalxylem and @renesauz, If you ever feel inclined to talk about your experience as a NFL UNC in a separate thread, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one very interested to hear about it.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

Probably the same way the employees at the Park City ski resort that had a co-worker die after a tree fell into a lift did the next day...at least those that decided to work. Of course you mental perspective is likely different when you paycheck put groceries on the table next week.

What happened was a freak accident given the amount of games NFL games played. Chuck Hughes died on the field from a non contact heart attack in the 60s.

Youth baseball players have died from getting hit with a line drive in the chest, Chris Pronger collapsed from a puck in the chest. Playing any fast moving contact sport has risk. Of course nobody ever expects or wants something like this to happen and hopefully he makes a full recovery.

Police and fireman lose their partners and coworkers and have to be on the job the next day as right or wrong it is their job. Look across the country at workers who die accidental deaths on the job. Roofers fall to their deaths, factory workers have been maimed or killed.

It happens all the time but nobody actually sees it happen. We just read a blurb and think "That is too bad"

That is what makes this so different, so difficult to digest.

The fact that this happened in prime time in the MNF game of the year has definitely affected how much attention this story has gotten. If it had been during a 1 p.m. Sunday game, it would obviously have still been a big story, but not as big.

But IMO all this discussion of precedents set by the response to Belcher or Henry or Utley misses the fact that we are in a different time. There is far more awareness of mental health, and while NFL players don't have nearly as much leverage as, say, NBA players, they undoubtedly have more leverage than they did a decade ago. (I bring up leverage because it appears that a big factor in Monday night's cancelation was the two coaches getting together and agreeing that their players were in no shape to continue. In a previous generation, I'm not sure that gets factored into the decision.)

Who's to say that if there were a Belcher-like incident tomorrow, the league would react the same way they did in 2012?

 

[BobbyLayne]

I guess this is the Damar Hamlin thread now, the other one has two posts

(thread title change @Ministry of Pain ? they ain't ever gonna finish this game)

anyway I digress....

***************

(sorry if Honda)

Damar Hamlin toy drive fund exceeds $5.5 million

also Fanatics is donating 100% of it's proceeds from his jersey sales - Hamlin #3 was the top selling jersey across all sports yesterday

 

[BobbyLayne]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

Probably the same way the employees at the Park City ski resort that had a co-worker die after a tree fell into a lift did the next day...at least those that decided to work. Of course you mental perspective is likely different when you paycheck put groceries on the table next week.

What happened was a freak accident given the amount of games NFL games played. Chuck Hughes died on the field from a non contact heart attack in the 60s.

Youth baseball players have died from getting hit with a line drive in the chest, Chris Pronger collapsed from a puck in the chest. Playing any fast moving contact sport has risk. Of course nobody ever expects or wants something like this to happen and hopefully he makes a full recovery.

Police and fireman lose their partners and coworkers and have to be on the job the next day as right or wrong it is their job. Look across the country at workers who die accidental deaths on the job. Roofers fall to their deaths, factory workers have been maimed or killed.

It happens all the time but nobody actually sees it happen. We just read a blurb and think "That is too bad"

That is what makes this so different, so difficult to digest.

The fact that this happened in prime time in the MNF game of the year has definitely affected how much attention this story has gotten. If it had been during a 1 p.m. Sunday game, it would obviously have still been a big story, but not as big.

But IMO all this discussion of precedents set by the response to Belcher or Henry or Utley misses the fact that we are in a different time. There is far more awareness of mental health, and while NFL players don't have nearly as much leverage as, say, NBA players, they undoubtedly have more leverage than they did a decade ago. (I bring up leverage because it appears that a big factor in Monday night's cancelation was the two coaches getting together and agreeing that their players were in no shape to continue. In a previous generation, I'm not sure that gets factored into the decision.)

Who's to say that if there were a Belcher-like incident tomorrow, the league would react the same way they did in 2012?

Dude, they played two days after JFK was shot lol

Postponed one week after 9/11 so there's that

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I guess this is the Damar Hamlin thread now, the other one has two posts

(thread title change @Ministry of Pain ? they ain't ever gonna finish this game)

anyway I digress....

***************

(sorry if Honda)

Damar Hamlin toy drive fund exceeds $5.5 million

also Fanatics is donating 100% of it's proceeds from his jersey sales - Hamlin #3 was the top selling jersey across all sports yesterday

Hey Bud

I took the spread out of the title, that seemed like it was not needed any longer. I updated he is on a ventilator still.

I'll work on it

-Updated with Hamlin at the start of the thread title, open to any suggestions

 

[BobbyLayne]

I guess this is the Damar Hamlin thread now, the other one has two posts

(thread title change @Ministry of Pain ? they ain't ever gonna finish this game)

anyway I digress....

***************

(sorry if Honda)

Damar Hamlin toy drive fund exceeds $5.5 million

also Fanatics is donating 100% of it's proceeds from his jersey sales - Hamlin #3 was the top selling jersey across all sports yesterday

Hey Bud

I took the spread out of the title, that seemed like it was not needed any longer. I updated he is on a ventilator still.

I'll work on it

-Updated with Hamlin at the start of the thread title, open to any suggestions

I was half joking but come on - pretty sure we were on page 3 at 8:55 pm on Monday lol

Anyway good we're having the discussion very informative

 

[Da Guru]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

Probably the same way the employees at the Park City ski resort that had a co-worker die after a tree fell into a lift did the next day...at least those that decided to work. Of course you mental perspective is likely different when you paycheck put groceries on the table next week.

What happened was a freak accident given the amount of games NFL games played. Chuck Hughes died on the field from a non contact heart attack in the 60s.

Youth baseball players have died from getting hit with a line drive in the chest, Chris Pronger collapsed from a puck in the chest. Playing any fast moving contact sport has risk. Of course nobody ever expects or wants something like this to happen and hopefully he makes a full recovery.

Police and fireman lose their partners and coworkers and have to be on the job the next day as right or wrong it is their job. Look across the country at workers who die accidental deaths on the job. Roofers fall to their deaths, factory workers have been maimed or killed.

It happens all the time but nobody actually sees it happen. We just read a blurb and think "That is too bad"

That is what makes this so different, so difficult to digest.

The fact that this happened in prime time in the MNF game of the year has definitely affected how much attention this story has gotten. If it had been during a 1 p.m. Sunday game, it would obviously have still been a big story, but not as big.

But IMO all this discussion of precedents set by the response to Belcher or Henry or Utley misses the fact that we are in a different time. There is far more awareness of mental health, and while NFL players don't have nearly as much leverage as, say, NBA players, they undoubtedly have more leverage than they did a decade ago. (I bring up leverage because it appears that a big factor in Monday night's cancelation was the two coaches getting together and agreeing that their players were in no shape to continue. In a previous generation, I'm not sure that gets factored into the decision.)

Who's to say that if there were a Belcher-like incident tomorrow, the league would react the same way they did in 2012?

They just had an article in Detroit with Mike Utley and he said every player knows the risk involved and he would not change a thing. Really?

If I could take away being paralyzed the rest of my life starting in my 20`s I certainly would change some things.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But IMO all this discussion of precedents set by the response to Belcher or Henry or Utley misses the fact that we are in a different time. There is far more awareness of mental health, and while NFL players don't have nearly as much leverage as, say, NBA players, they undoubtedly have more leverage than they did a decade ago. (I bring up leverage because it appears that a big factor in Monday night's cancelation was the two coaches getting together and agreeing that their players were in no shape to continue. In a previous generation, I'm not sure that gets factored into the decision.)

Who's to say that if there were a Belcher-like incident tomorrow, the league would react the same way they did in 2012?

I think this is very obviously true, and it's a social change that occurred basically overnight and without discussion. The thing with Christian Ericksen was just a couple of years ago, but it seems like something that happened in a different civilization or something. I think all previous generations had it right that the healthiest way of dealing with tragedy is just to get on with it. This new standard is not progress -- it's more like a society choosing to forget things that we've always known.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Some updates from ESPN reporter Coley Harvey this morning:

-Hamlin still in ICU sedated and in critical condition

-Cleared up miscommunication and said that Hamlin was only revived the one time at the stadium and didn’t have to be revived again at the hospital

-Per Jordon (Damar’s friend and one of his reps) and Damar’s family, doctors overnight got promising readings that they had been hoping to see by this morning. Jordon couldn’t go into specifics, but progress appears to be made.

 

[sho nuff]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

The Bengals lost Chris Henry and played 3 days later. It sucks but things happen. Not trying to sound like "get over it", if anyone is too affected to play even by Sunday then that is okay for them to not play, but life just goes on for most people.

ETA: And life just goes on does not mean forget about it, it just means that life goes on.

It's one thing to lose someone you're close to and another thing to watch them die. Wildly different trauma IMO

This is really true.

I lost one of my best friends in my early 20s. Literally a guy I hung out with almost every day.(He lived two apartments over and worked at the same place as me) He was in a car accident and died on the scene. It was devastating, but after grieving I got over it and remembered him for the good times we had. Still think about him and wish he were around, but fond memories not devastated hurt.

We had a buddy that was an EMT. Not a real close friend, but someone who we'd hang out with if we saw him at the bar or at some event etc., but not someone who we'd make specific plans to hang with. He was one of the guys on the call for the accident. Was there when our buddy died. It took him years to get over it. He quit being an EMT, had a struggle with alcohol for a number of years. That affected him hugely. I can only assume that the difference was in witnessing our friend die versus just hearing about it.

Right. Folks who are enduring PTSD are stuck in the event. I've sat next to guys talk about what they witnessed in the Gulf of Tonkin (Aug, 1964) and you get the impression they were recounting something that happened last week.

These comments also splintered off to a mention of Jovan Belcher, with the interesting choice of phrasing "even if you assign some fault to mental health." Both Chris Henry and Belcher were diagnosed postmortem with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a neurological disorder where many repeated head injuries can affect someone's brain function over time, enough to interfere with the person's normal or working life.

We don't know enough about CTE. AFAIK we currently cannot test for CTE amongst the living. Research facilities at the VA and leading universities (Harvard, John Hopkins) have brain banks - I think the preferred nomenclature is Brain Resource Centre - where thousands of brain tissues samples are being studied.

Pat McAfee pointed out yesterday that the NFL is the place where "you move the drill ten yards." In his first NFL training camp, someone suffered a torn ACL/MCL ....and while the medical staff attended to the athlete who had just suffered a career-threatening injury, the coaches moved the cones 10 so they could continue the drill they were working on.

Belcher (multiple TBI, CTE) shot his girlfriend nine times in front of his mother and infant daughter. Then he drove to the Chiefs practice facility and thanked GM Scott Pioli (and HC Romeo Crennel) for giving him a chance, kneeled next his Bentley, made the sign of a cross, and pulled the trigger of the handgun he was holding to his own head.

Chiefs won the game the next day. Crennel was fired 4 weeks later and Pioli the week after. Just move the drill ten yards. Let's move on.

Sure…and the league may still be that way.
But, IMO, we have moved a but as a society and how we react to mental illness and trauma. Where being affected by it and seeking help is more accepted in society rather than seeing it as a sign of weakness. Hopefully that is the case with this.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Some updates from ESPN reporter Coley Harvey this morning:

-Hamlin still in ICU sedated and in critical condition

-Cleared up miscommunication and said that Hamlin was only revived the one time at the stadium and didn’t have to be revived again at the hospital

-Per Jordon (Damar’s friend and one of his reps) and Damar’s family, doctors overnight got promising readings that they had been hoping to see by this morning. Jordon couldn’t go into specifics, but progress appears to be made.

I'm reading lung damage from the resuscitations

"Hamlin's uncle Dorrian Glenn said: 'Right now there's just trying to get him to breathe better. Right now he's on a ventilator just to help with the breathing."

 

[BobbyLayne]

I can't even imagine how the Bills and Bengals teams will be able to prepare for Sunday

The Bengals lost Chris Henry and played 3 days later. It sucks but things happen. Not trying to sound like "get over it", if anyone is too affected to play even by Sunday then that is okay for them to not play, but life just goes on for most people.

ETA: And life just goes on does not mean forget about it, it just means that life goes on.

It's one thing to lose someone you're close to and another thing to watch them die. Wildly different trauma IMO

This is really true.

I lost one of my best friends in my early 20s. Literally a guy I hung out with almost every day.(He lived two apartments over and worked at the same place as me) He was in a car accident and died on the scene. It was devastating, but after grieving I got over it and remembered him for the good times we had. Still think about him and wish he were around, but fond memories not devastated hurt.

We had a buddy that was an EMT. Not a real close friend, but someone who we'd hang out with if we saw him at the bar or at some event etc., but not someone who we'd make specific plans to hang with. He was one of the guys on the call for the accident. Was there when our buddy died. It took him years to get over it. He quit being an EMT, had a struggle with alcohol for a number of years. That affected him hugely. I can only assume that the difference was in witnessing our friend die versus just hearing about it.

Right. Folks who are enduring PTSD are stuck in the event. I've sat next to guys talk about what they witnessed in the Gulf of Tonkin (Aug, 1964) and you get the impression they were recounting something that happened last week.

These comments also splintered off to a mention of Jovan Belcher, with the interesting choice of phrasing "even if you assign some fault to mental health." Both Chris Henry and Belcher were diagnosed postmortem with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a neurological disorder where many repeated head injuries can affect someone's brain function over time, enough to interfere with the person's normal or working life.

We don't know enough about CTE. AFAIK we currently cannot test for CTE amongst the living. Research facilities at the VA and leading universities (Harvard, John Hopkins) have brain banks - I think the preferred nomenclature is Brain Resource Centre - where thousands of brain tissues samples are being studied.

Pat McAfee pointed out yesterday that the NFL is the place where "you move the drill ten yards." In his first NFL training camp, someone suffered a torn ACL/MCL ....and while the medical staff attended to the athlete who had just suffered a career-threatening injury, the coaches moved the cones 10 so they could continue the drill they were working on.

Belcher (multiple TBI, CTE) shot his girlfriend nine times in front of his mother and infant daughter. Then he drove to the Chiefs practice facility and thanked GM Scott Pioli (and HC Romeo Crennel) for giving him a chance, kneeled next his Bentley, made the sign of a cross, and pulled the trigger of the handgun he was holding to his own head.

Chiefs won the game the next day. Crennel was fired 4 weeks later and Pioli the week after. Just move the drill ten yards. Let's move on.

Sure…and the league may still be that way.
But, IMO, we have moved a but as a society and how we react to mental illness and trauma. Where being affected by it and seeking help is more accepted in society rather than seeing it as a sign of weakness. Hopefully that is the case with this.

Yeah I wrote about that last night - the NFL has a real opportunity to shift the national conversation on mental health treatment. We are better, as a society, at being aware of the importance of mental health.

We are not, however, actually that good at it when it shifts from awareness programs to actually making space for people to find the resources they need.

It's getting better, though, no question. But read through all the posts here or on Twitter. Stigma, ignorance and bias are still the norm and not the exception.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Some updates from ESPN reporter Coley Harvey this morning:

-Hamlin still in ICU sedated and in critical condition

-Cleared up miscommunication and said that Hamlin was only revived the one time at the stadium and didn’t have to be revived again at the hospital

-Per Jordon (Damar’s friend and one of his reps) and Damar’s family, doctors overnight got promising readings that they had been hoping to see by this morning. Jordon couldn’t go into specifics, but progress appears to be made.

I'm reading lung damage from the resuscitations

"Hamlin's uncle Dorrian Glenn said: 'Right now there's just trying to get him to breathe better. Right now he's on a ventilator just to help with the breathing."

I think it was growler who pointed out that it wouldn’t be unusual to have bruised lungs from the CPR being performed. I would also assume the ventilator would be providing a bit higher percentage of oxygen than normal air to help keep the heart from having to work as hard right now getting oxygen throughout the body. So it’s likely pretty standard

 

[jobarules]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

 

[Insein]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

They're definitely hoping week 18 decides the seeding for them so they don't have to reschedule the game.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm reading lung damage from the resuscitations

What is the link for that?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm reading lung damage from the resuscitations

What is the link for that?

Not my favorite sports source Joe but here you go

Damar Hamlin's family reveal Bills player has suffered 'lung damage'

Damar Hamlin's family representative has revealed that the Buffalo Bills player made 'progress' in intensive care overnight, and doctors took 'promising readings' on his health.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[sho nuff]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

It may just be for announcement purposes. They may have a contingency based on some talks with teams involved or even all owners (though, involving all owners seems unlikely as there has been zero leaked about it). Id at least hope they have some sort of...if this happens...we move the playoffs back and week and play it out...and so on.

 

[Rubi]

Just my 2 cents. I think if The NFL were going to make a major change like pushing the playoffs back that would have already been done,we're only 10 days out. The logisitcs of that would be quite large imop. Events like 9/11 and covid affected every team. Although resuming the suspended game would have a trickle down effect on some teams it does not affect the entire league like those other events. It's a decision the league will make with,I expect,heavy input from The Bills and Bengals players and organizations. That is in regards to resuming the game and a possible change in playoff scheduling

 

[Pipes]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

Agreed since at this point rescheduling this game would involve bumping the playoffs back. Which if they are going to do that, from a logistics standpoint, really should be announced sooner rather than later. At this point I don't see them getting this game in.

 

[Dizzy]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

They're definitely hoping week 18 decides the seeding for them so they don't have to reschedule the game.

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"... maybe that's "not fair" to Bills/Bengals franchises, but as we saw this week life is not fair. Anything that is done IMO to squeeze this game in will have ripple effects and create unfair scenarios for others, as well as the Bills and/or Bengals again.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

 

[JohnnyU]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

What's the big deal moving the playoffs out one week? You would just have one week before the Super Bowl instead of two.

 

[Dizzy]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

Yes. Just for sheets 'n' giggles, let's say the BUF @ CIN game plays in week 18... so every other AFC play-off team gets a bye week? Again - something unfair to BUF and/or CIN. It's already unfair, let's keep it rolling.

 

[derek245583]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

They're definitely hoping week 18 decides the seeding for them so they don't have to reschedule the game.

I dont think there is a single scenario though where its settled...Could be wrong.

Bills Win, Chiefs Win, Bengals Win (Chiefs/Bills 1/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Win, Bengals Win (Bengals/Bills 2/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Win (Bengals/Chiefs 1/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Lose (Bengals/Ravens Division Winner)
Bills Win, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Win (Bills/Bengals 1/3 Seed)
Bills Win, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Lose (Bengals/Ravens Division Winner)

I am sure I missed a scenario, but the point remains I think

 

[BobbyLayne]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

What's the big deal moving the playoffs out one week? You would just have one week before the Super Bowl instead of two.

Probably conflicting events would be impediment number one? Would also be a massive outlay for the logistics of rescheduling/rebooking everything. I mean, I know we're talking about billionaires but some of these folks only have $500Mn or $1.4Bn.

I'm not advocating for it, I just think it's the most likely outcome. We could do literally anything we want if there is a will for it.

 

[derek245583]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

Yes. Just for sheets 'n' giggles, let's say the BUF @ CIN game plays in week 18... so every other AFC play-off team gets a bye week? Again - something unfair to BUF and/or CIN. It's already unfair, let's keep it rolling.

If I were the Bills I would rather just forfeit Bengals game, forfeit Pats game. Strap up to host Baltimore with essentially 3.5 weeks off.

 

[BassNBrew]

I wouldn't put it past the NFL to add an 8th playoff team and eliminate the bye for the one seed this year.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I wouldn't put it past the NFL to add an 8th playoff team and eliminate the bye for the one seed this year.

now we're talking

increasing revenue generation would def get the owners attention - that dog will hunt

 

[Dizzy]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"

Seems inconceivable to most but I think that's the resolution. No contest.

Thirty teams will play 17 games, two will play 16. Deal.

What's the big deal moving the playoffs out one week? You would just have one week before the Super Bowl instead of two.

I think they did that one year (maybe two), but it was a disaster with respect to logistics.

If it came down to a choice, I believe the NFL would rather just blow this game away than not have that extra week before the Super Bowl.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I honestly can't see any scenario other than "this game didn't happen"... maybe that's "not fair" to Bills/Bengals franchises, but as we saw this week life is not fair. Anything that is done IMO to squeeze this game in will have ripple effects and create unfair scenarios for others, as well as the Bills and/or Bengals again.

Totally fine with this. Looking at it from the perspective of a Bills fan, the worst possible result of Monday night's game was losing. So that should be the floor for the league. The NFL should not ask the Bills (or Bengals) to accept a worse result than just losing the game and moving on.

Forcing these teams to squeeze in a makeup game while everybody else gets that time off is a really bad solution. I'm pretty confident that neither team wants this. It should be off the table.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If I were the Bills I would rather just forfeit Bengals game, forfeit Pats game. Strap up to host Baltimore with essentially 3.5 weeks off.

On the other hand, hard no to this. I'm okay with treating the Bengals game as a bizarre, once-in-a-generation one-off, but there's no good reason not to play week 18.

 

[Dizzy]

FWIW - Schefter reported this morning of chit-chat in NFL offices of this game having "bad mojo" and nobody seems to be advocating for a scenario to get this one played.

 

[amnesiac]

I wouldn't put it past the NFL to add an 8th playoff team and eliminate the bye for the one seed this year.

modern problems require modern solutions.

 

[dickey moe]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

They're definitely hoping week 18 decides the seeding for them so they don't have to reschedule the game.

I tend to agree with your take on this.

 

[dickey moe]

Im surprised NFL hasnt made any declarations about the game beyond this week yet.

I'm kind of surprised, but not really. The league flew by the seat of its pants a couple of times during the pandemic, and I get the feeling that they're trying to do the same thing here. In other words, get through week 18, see how things shake out, and then decide what to do with Bills-Bengals after seeing what the full implications are. That's a ludicrous way of handling it it, but if they wanted to make an announcement, they could have easily done so yesterday and here we are.

They're definitely hoping week 18 decides the seeding for them so they don't have to reschedule the game.

I dont think there is a single scenario though where its settled...Could be wrong.

Bills Win, Chiefs Win, Bengals Win (Chiefs/Bills 1/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Win, Bengals Win (Bengals/Bills 2/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Win (Bengals/Chiefs 1/3 seed)
Bills Lose, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Lose (Bengals/Ravens Division Winner)
Bills Win, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Win (Bills/Bengals 1/3 Seed)
Bills Win, Chiefs Lose, Bengals Lose (Bengals/Ravens Division Winner)

I am sure I missed a scenario, but the point remains I think

Add a tie in there somehow and the universe implodes.

 

[jobarules]

FWIW - Schefter reported this morning of chit-chat in NFL offices of this game having "bad mojo" and nobody seems to be advocating for a scenario to get this one played.

IMO this is really the only possible solution which is why I am shocked they havent announced it yet.

 

[jobarules]

If I were the Bills I would rather just forfeit Bengals game, forfeit Pats game. Strap up to host Baltimore with essentially 3.5 weeks off.

On the other hand, hard no to this. I'm okay with treating the Bengals game as a bizarre, once-in-a-generation one-off, but there's no good reason not to play week 18.

Agreed. All signs are that the young man's vitals are good. His teammates are still gonna be in bad places mentally but life does go on. They do have a job. Their next game is vs the Patriots and there should be no changes to that. If some players are still not ready to play that is certainly understandable and they should be made inactive. The game is a 3 hour distraction. Even if the poor young man takes a turn for the worst at some point the games need to go on and even Sunday is not too soon. People return to work after the death of a loved one all the time. I did after my daughter died. It absolutely sucks and I cried in the office several times but life does have to go on.