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Explosions in Manchester? (1 Viewer)

Need more Trump and CNN Whining in this thread, IMO. Lots more. Not like the Usual Suspects have taken over countless other threads with their idiotic blathering. Definitely belongs here in this thread about kids getting blown up. 

 
El Floppo said:
I guess I'm flying solo in wanting these threads to be about the facts of the event- not opinions from the peanut gallery about tangential political stuff.

endless, tiresome opinions... that I can get- should I ever want- in any of the endless tiresome threads devoted to them. I wish there was a way- if even for a few hours- of having a place to go for just the news as it comes in... this place can be a great resource for that. but most of you can't help yourselves. 
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A sentiment overall with which I agree and for that reason, I avoided posting about the mater until this morning when I added a post with Ariana Grande's public statement about the tragedy.  I didn't want to express my opinion nor rebut those that had been given that I disagreed with or thought were inappropriate.

Unfortunately, it really is impossible to keep opinions and commentary out of most threads involving items in the news. And that is the main reason, IMO, that a politics only forum is unrealistic and unenforceable, as political discussion inevitable bleeds into most threads about news worthy items.

 
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This one is really upsetting...kids. It's just unbelievable.  I haven't felt this way about news since that little boy washed up on the beach and his pic was everywhere.

I don't know what the answer is but governments need to be doing more.  

 
El Floppo said:
I guess I'm flying solo in wanting these threads to be about the facts of the event- not opinions from the peanut gallery about tangential political stuff.

endless, tiresome opinions... that I can get- should I ever want- in any of the endless tiresome threads devoted to them. I wish there was a way- if even for a few hours- of having a place to go for just the news as it comes in... this place can be a great resource for that. but most of you can't help yourselves. 
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Hey welcome to the FFA, sorry your first visit here was in such a sad thread but welcome all the same.

My thoughts exactly, I opened this thread this morning 8 pages in and the name calling had long since taken over the thread. Sad really because there are some stellar posters here that add some serious content to these events but their replies get so buried in the bickering back and forth, it's impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  

 
killface said:
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  
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Reminds me of those identity theft commercials with the dentist just there to monitor cavities, and the bank guard just there to alert people to a robbery.  Only more real.

 
killface said:
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  
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Hard not to blame PC culture. Law enforcement is crippled in fear of offending. 

San Bernadino was our best example. The neighbors had a funny feeling but didn't come forward in fear of being labeled. 

 
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killface said:
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  
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What are authorities suppose to do?  If they do too much, civil liberties groups will scream about racial profiling or that their privacy is being violated.  Besides these watch lists might have thousands of people on them and only a handful will be involved in terrorists acts. 

 
William Munny said:
Hard not to blame PC culture. Law enforcement is crippled in fear of offending. 

San Bernadino was our best example. The neighbors had a funny feeling but didn't come forward I fear of being labeled. 
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I don't think that is it either...in fact I don't even think that is close to it.  He was known to police, it had nothing to do with a neighbor's feelings.  All these guys were on terror watch lists 

 
jon_mx said:
What are authorities suppose to do?  If they do too much, civil liberties groups will scream about racial profiling or that their privacy is being violated.  Besides these watch lists might have thousands of people on them and only a handful will be involved in terrorists acts. 
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Those are good points and you are right.  I don't claim to have any answers.  It's just disappointing that these guys are all being 'watched' yet are still able to commit atrocities.  Of course, we don't know how many people they stop so maybe the system is in fact working.  

 
killface said:
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  
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Vanilla Guerrilla said:
Reminds me of those identity theft commercials with the dentist just there to monitor cavities, and the bank guard just there to alert people to a robbery.  Only more real.
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Actually it reminds me of the war on drugs.

Hypothetical (All too real in my neighborhood) : Drug problem at a local high school. Student body getting exposed to readily available coke and opiates due to a fellow student being the source. Police are aware and begin investigation.

When they have enough info on the student that's dealing, do the cops go in and grab that student and get the source of the drugs out of there right away? Of course they don't. They use him as bait in an attempt to get the bigger fish. Meanwhile, he's still dealing at the high school and students are getting hooked on the crap, but that doesn't matter because there's a bigger fish to fry.

Wouldn't blink if the same crap is happening here. Sure they know the guy, but they also know that someone else, possibly, if not more than likely local, is influencing him. In an effort to catch the bigger fish, the smaller one slips through the net and is able to follow through on something like this.  

 
Limp Ditka said:
Actually it reminds me of the war on drugs.

Hypothetical (All too real in my neighborhood) : Drug problem at a local high school. Student body getting exposed to readily available coke and opiates due to a fellow student being the source. Police are aware and begin investigation.

When they have enough info on the student that's dealing, do the cops go in and grab that student and get the source of the drugs out of there right away? Of course they don't. They use him as bait in an attempt to get the bigger fish. Meanwhile, he's still dealing at the high school and students are getting hooked on the crap, but that doesn't matter because there's a bigger fish to fry.

Wouldn't blink if the same crap is happening here. Sure they know the guy, but they also know that someone else, possibly, if not more than likely local, is influencing him. In an effort to catch the bigger fish, the smaller one slips through the net and is able to follow through on something like this.  
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Certainly, that seems plausible.  We need someone that works for the FBI or something to comment.  They just don't let out the information about why the person slips through as far as I know

 
As the late great Fred Rogers said (actually, his mother told him and he often repeated it in times of trouble): "Look for the helpers".

 

Ariana Grande's mother was still sitting in her front row seat when the bomb went off, and helped escort some of her panicked young fans backstage.

Multiple witnesses in the arena tell us Joan Grande was surrounded by several concertgoers who were waiting to leave the arena when they heard the explosion. We're told Joan was about to go backstage to see Ariana at the time.

As the chaos of people fleeing for exits started ... Joan told a group of kids -- possibly as many as 10 -- seated around her to come backstage. We're told she and members of Ariana's security took the fans backstage and waited with them until they were able to safely exit the arena.

As we reported, Ariana was an emotional wreck after hearing about the casualties. She's suspended her tour in the wake of the attack.
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Ignorance is thinking 4 major world religions (plus atheists based countries) can exist as the world continues to overpopulate.  Yes, the problem has existed for thousands of years.  That has not changed.  But weaponry has changed, relative proximity due to information technology and travel advancement has changed, and the expansion of a "forgiveness over punishment in both law and in war has drastically changed.

I'm not saying any religion (or lack of religion) is right or wrong.  I'm just saying the end result as the world overpopulates and resources become more scarce in certain parts of the world, it is not going to be pretty.  Whether religious or ethnically based, something is bound to happen that is pretty bad.  Malthusian?  Yes it is.  But eventually a major, major war is going to break out.  Far bigger than WW2.  The end of the world?  Nah.  But it won't be pretty.

For the sake of my kids, I just hope the U.S. and it's allies will not be too soft in their politics and convictions to put up a fight when it really matters  Because we certainly are now.

 
Brunell4MVP said:
Ignorance is thinking 4 major world religions (plus atheists based countries) can exist as the world continues to overpopulate.  Yes, the problem has existed for thousands of years.  That has not changed.  But weaponry has changed, relative proximity due to information technology and travel advancement has changed, and the expansion of a "forgiveness over punishment in both law and in war has drastically changed.

I'm not saying any religion (or lack of religion) is right or wrong.  I'm just saying the end result as the world overpopulates and resources become more scarce in certain parts of the world, it is not going to be pretty.  Whether religious or ethnically based, something is bound to happen that is pretty bad.  Malthusian?  Yes it is.  But eventually a major, major war is going to break out.  Far bigger than WW2.  The end of the world?  Nah.  But it won't be pretty.

For the sake of my kids, I just hope the U.S. and it's allies will not be too soft in their politics and convictions to put up a fight when it really matters  Because we certainly are now.
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Religion plays a small part of it, the major part is ignorance, fear and hope

What religion does in the end, is let people know that they are safe and they are loved no matter what as long as they follow the rules.  It's a beautiful thing on one hand, on the other it can be used as a tool for manipulation.   But that happens with power anyway.  Hitler didn't use religion to mask his atrocities.  Mostly he used power and the argument that xxxx was harming you, we need to remove xxxx.  I am the only one that can keep you safe and warm at night.  

 
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jon_mx said:
What are authorities suppose to do?  If they do too much, civil liberties groups will scream about racial profiling or that their privacy is being violated.  Besides these watch lists might have thousands of people on them and only a handful will be involved in terrorists acts. 
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True, but in England they've had 850 or so folks go from England to Syria to fight.   Some 200 have come back - fighters, war brides, etc.  That's not insignificant - it represents some significant radicalization occurring in parts of that country.

 
Sand said:
True, but in England they've had 850 or so folks go from England to Syria to fight.   Some 200 have come back - fighters, war brides, etc.  That's not insignificant - it represents some significant radicalization occurring in parts of that country.
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Richard Barrett, former director of global counterterrorism operations at MI6, Britain’s foreign intelligence agency, said that the security and police forces were stretched, having to monitor more than 400 people returning from jihad in the Middle East, and 600 or so others who had tried to go but had been stopped. “So that’s already 1,000 people,” without taking into account other sympathizers in Britain, he said.
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killface said:
Another case where the bomber was already known to police

I feel like this is where the government falls down.  It seems like all these guys are already on some watch list.  These guys aren't random refugees that come out of nowhere.  
Click to expand...
Which constitutional rights should be forfeit when you "become known to the police"?

 
This type of random of bombing that kills innocent people and even fellow muslims at times is just something a normal person will never be able to comprehend.

 
It boggles my mind that you let known people who have left your country to fight in their jihad back into your country. That should be a one way ticket period.

 
msommer said:
Care to elaborate on how your comment is related to the question in my post?
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I was agreeing with you to some extent.  Known to the police is a lot of things but an imminent threat has to be quelled. Unfortunately, lack of resources does make law enforcement a step too late. 

 
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knowledge dropper said:
I was agreeing with you to some extent.  Known to the police is a lot of things but an imminent threat has to be quelled. Unfortunately, lack of resources does make law enforcement a step too late. 
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I don't think it is only or even largely resources, unfortunately. I think there are much more fundamental reasons, namely constitutional rights, habeas corpus etc. But I agree that resources do play a role.

What is that qoute "he who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither"?

Simpler times.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
You are on a watch list.

You belong to a group or consort with a group/ person who are known to commit terror.
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Do you have data on the percentage if people on watch lists that commit terror?

I don't so not trying to be snarky. 

For the sake of argument, lets say that number is 10%.

That means for every potential terrorist nine innocent people lose their constitutional rights.

Is that ok with you?

That doesn't even go into the topic on how you get on the list in the first place, maybe you play basketball (or perhaps more realistically soccer) with some guys from school that have started frequenting a certain mosque and grow their beards. Is that enough to lose all rights (rhetorical)

 
msommer said:
Do you have data on the percentage if people on watch lists that commit terror?

I don't so not trying to be snarky. 

For the sake of argument, lets say that number is 10%.

That means for every potential terrorist nine innocent people lose their constitutional rights.

Is that ok with you?

That doesn't even go into the topic on how you get on the list in the first place, maybe you play basketball (or perhaps more realistically soccer) with some guys from school that have started frequenting a certain mosque and grow their beards. Is that enough to lose all rights (rhetorical)
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Well my concern too is that list would include people like potential 'eco-terrorists' which would probably include a whole bunch of people that don't deserve to be on a list

 
Limp Ditka said:
Care to elaborate why you think England has a constitution?
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Care to elaborate why you think I only spoke about England or even the United Kingdom? Is that the only country with terrorism or indeed terrorists that were known to the police prior to their heinous acts?

 
msommer said:
Do you have data on the percentage if people on watch lists that commit terror?

I don't so not trying to be snarky. 

For the sake of argument, lets say that number is 10%.

That means for every potential terrorist nine innocent people lose their constitutional rights.

Is that ok with you?

That doesn't even go into the topic on how you get on the list in the first place, maybe you play basketball (or perhaps more realistically soccer) with some guys from school that have started frequenting a certain mosque and grow their beards. Is that enough to lose all rights (rhetorical)
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I don't have data other than we hear after these events that the perp was known to authorities. Well if we have a mechanism to know them we should have a mechanism to prevent them from committing these heinous acts.

 
William Munny said:
Hard not to blame PC culture. Law enforcement is crippled in fear of offending. 

San Bernadino was our best example. The neighbors had a funny feeling but didn't come forward in fear of being labeled. 
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No, they aren't.  Terry and its progeny do a pretty good job of protecting law enforcement.  I routinely see pretextual stops made on a regular basis.  Cops are trained how to look for other factors to justify biased suspicions.  

Law enforcement certainly has changed since, say, 1968 New Orleans where the police had varying techniques for beating up distinct minority groups, but they aren't "crippled."  Not by any stretch. 

And PC culture is not to blame.  To quote Alfred from one of the Batman movies, "some people just like to watch the world burn."  And, really, no system can be put in place to stop pure evil. 

 
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Ditka Butkus said:
I don't have data other than we hear after these events that the perp was known to authorities. Well if we have a mechanism to know them we should have a mechanism to prevent them from committing these heinous acts.
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That is obviously harder than it sounds, not least due to constitutional rights

 
msommer said:
Ditka Butkus said:
I don't have data other than we hear after these events that the perp was known to authorities. Well if we have a mechanism to know them we should have a mechanism to prevent them from committing these heinous acts.
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That is obviously harder than it sounds, not least due to constitutional rights
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and to be fair- we also get news reports about arrests made without these kind of things happening. so work is being done- agencies aren't "crippled".

 
Swing 51 said:
This is a scary article too (it's three months old).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/25/small-part-of-manchester-that-has-been-home-to-16-jihadis
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This type of thing is going to get much worse before it gets better. Identifying troubled kids and radicalizing them to become lone wolf jihadis is easy work and has a very high ROI in fear quotent. Anyone who thinks significant increases in this sort of stuff isn't coming to US soil soon is kidding themselves... particularly as the middle class is pressured downward and opportunities for marginalized young men get further out of reach. 

 
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