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FOX Sports is reporting Pats taped practice (1 Viewer)

Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.
The New York Times website:
February 22, 2008New Claim of Cheating Emerges Against PatriotsBy JOHN BRANCH and GREG BISHOPINDIANAPOLIS — The Patriots’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was then put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Belichick’s debut as New England’s head coach.The habit of secretly taping signals, which is against league rules, continued at least through three championship seasons to the 2007 season opener against the Jets, when the Patriots were caught and subsequently sanctioned by the league.But it was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at the Meadowlands. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant coach giving signals, several executives within the league said.The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules.That letter was cited by Commissioner Roger Goodell when he punished the Patriots. Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted cynically by some peers and league officials, hundreds of whom gathered here for the annual scouting combine to evaluate college players for the draft in April.In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”The league’s nine-member competition committee spent three days this week discussing various rules changes that it might recommend for next season. After a 90-minute briefing on the Patriots’ videotaping scandal Thursday by Goodell and three league vice presidents, the committee said taping rules would not be changed in the aftermath of the controversy.“The rules are very, very clear,” said Tennessee Titans Coach Jeff Fisher, a committee member. “There is no need to be more specific or clarify any rules whatsoever as far as the bylaws are concerned.”Questions still linger about how much of an advantage the Patriots may have had if they intercepted defensive signals. Under Belichick, the Patriots have often run a no-huddle offense, which forces opponents to quickly call a defensive play. N.F.L. rules allow quarterbacks to hear instructions from coaches — through a headset and into a speaker in the quarterback’s helmet — until there are 15 seconds left on a play clock.When the defensive play call is deciphered, the Patriots could call a play to counteract. This would lead to a sizable advantage.The Patriots lost the 2000 opener against the Buccaneers, the first time taped signals were used under Belichick, according the former Patriots player, who said he was among several former players interviewed by the N.F.L but did not want to speak publicly because it is an ongoing investigation.In September, Goodell fined Belichick $500,000, fined the Patriots $250,000, and took away a first-round draft choice in 2008. After the sanctions were announced, the Patriots submitted six tapes, from games in 2006 and 2007, and some notes that dated to 2002, Goodell said. The tapes and notes were destroyed days after being handed to the league, because Goodell considered the matter closed.But questions remain about how wide and deep the Patriots’ taping habits extended. Senator Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican who met with Goodell last week, is among those still questioning why the league was so quick to sanction the Patriots and destroy the evidence.Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.”Yet emerging details continue to pull the league back in time. On Feb. 2, The Boston Herald reported that the Patriots may have also taped a Rams walkthrough practice the day before the teams played in the 2002 Super Bowl. The Patriots won, 20-17, on a last-second field goal. Belichick, speaking to The Boston Globe, recently denied that the practice was taped.In the hallway at the convention center here, Mike Martz wanted to talk about his new job as offensive coordinator with the 49ers. Instead, reporters peppered him with questions about the Patriots. Martz was head coach of the Rams when the teams met in the Super Bowl six years ago.He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walk-through. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.“For somebody to say that, it’s kind of disgusting,” Martz said. “The whole point is if they really cheated. To say he took some steroids and it did help or it didn’t help, that’s never the point. The point is, to all these high school coaches and high school kids and college kids, that if they did cheat, that’s the point.”Martz said he assumed the walkthrough report is false. Martz was asked if he wanted the N.F.L. to continue investigating the walkthrough. “Of course,” he said. “I was involved in that, I was responsible for a lot of people in that game.”He declined to comment about a class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of a former Rams player, a seat-license holder and Super Bowl ticket holders.Executives dismissed any lingering notions that the Patriots’ taping opponents was a common practice around the league. While teams have long tried to steal signals, the Patriots, it is believed, are the only ones who actively taped them.“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”Belichick was not seen in the hallways of the convention center Thursday. Representatives of 21 teams are scheduled to meet with reporters for news conferences from Thursday to Sunday. Belichick and the Patriots are not among them.
 
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.

 
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
I never believed everyone was doing it, but I also don't believe that the Patriots are the only ones in the league that were.Just passing along this info from Gene Upshaw...

Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?" -- Boston Globe

 
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“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?"
Of course the game of football still needs to be played. If you're a baseball player on steroids you still have to swing your own bat to have any chance to hit a homerun. But there's no doubt that the steroids give you a competitive edge. Having a teams defensive signals gives you that edge, but you still have to run your own play to give yourself a chance to move the ball. It's called cheating. Upshaw and all of those who downplay the issue are just trying to downplay the severity of this cheating. They certainly don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and keeps them employed...the integrity of the NFL. Your point?

 
Quote via New York Times:

The Patriots lost the 2000 opener against the Buccaneers, the first time taped signals were used under Belichick, according to the former Patriots player, who said he was among several former players interviewed by the N.F.L but did not want to speak publicly because it is an ongoing investigation.
This from the NY TIMES article is the most interesting. Now we even have former Patriots players admitting to this cheating and dating it back to 2000. Not looking good for Patriots at all.
 
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...But it was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at the Meadowlands. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant coach giving signals, several executives within the league said.The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules.
Wowsers. The most dramatic twist of the entire affair comes to light right after the Hollywood writers end their strike. Coincidence you ask? :goodposting: (Yes, that was a joke. My kingdom for a Dr. Evil emoticon.)Any sympathy for the "but other teams do the same" argument seems to fade upon finding out the Pats were already caught doing this once before and were let go scott free and didn't learn from it. And were themselves the ones who caused the league to finally draw in the sand the line the Pats then crossed (again).Talk about making your own bed.
 
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?"
Of course the game of football still needs to be played. If you're a baseball player on steroids you still have to swing your own bat to have any chance to hit a homerun. But there's no doubt that the steroids give you a competitive edge. Having a teams defensive signals gives you that edge, but you still have to run your own play to give yourself a chance to move the ball. It's called cheating. Upshaw and all of those who downplay the issue are just trying to downplay the severity of this cheating. They certainly don't want to bite the hand that feeds them and keeps them employed...the integrity of the NFL. Your point?
cheated...punished...done. I am not a Belichick fan by any stretch (he is the Devil in a hoodie)...I hate that his actions taint the Patriots team. I'd like to think that those players in those games though won on their own. You still have to execute.
 
Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.

“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”

Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.
Translation: "We want this to go away. Really bad."
 
nerangers said:
Dman30 said:
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
I never believed everyone was doing it, but I also don't believe that the Patriots are the only ones in the league that were.Just passing along this info from Gene Upshaw...

Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?" -- Boston Globe
Please, we've gone back and forth on this issue, but I mean this with complete sincerity, no side could possibly look worse than invoke Gene Upshaw's opinion on this matter. You're not the first to bring this quote out, but I have to say, almost nothing makes NE fans look worse in this thread than to cling to the words of this boob. And I would say the same if he tore Belichek a new one. Upshaw's a lap dog with zero credibility to me. Not a personal slag at any NE defenders or yourself, just more my opionion of worthless Gene.
 
Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.

“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”

Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.
Translation: "We want this to go away. Really bad."
Not enough fingers to plug this dike. Jack Aubrey's gonna cut the topmast on the Suprise pretty soon, and the Pats will drift off the sea. Can't see the whole league taking the bullet so Belichek can take them down, and right now, they're starting to take on water.

 
nerangers said:
Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?" -- Boston Globe
Upshaw is the biggest league pushover there is, nothing form his mouth can be considered believable.However, from Mike Martz:

He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walk-through. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.
 
Upshaw is the biggest league pushover there is, nothing form his mouth can be considered believable.
That is how I feel about Belichick...not the pushover part, but you can't believe anything that he is saying. I also agree that there are too many holes in this dike to be plugged. As I stated in my original post, "Just passing along this info from Gene Upshaw."
 
nerangers said:
Dman30 said:
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
I never believed everyone was doing it, but I also don't believe that the Patriots are the only ones in the league that were.Just passing along this info from Gene Upshaw...

Gene Upshaw has strong feelings on videotaping. Gene Upshaw, the executive director of the NFL Players Association, shared his feelings on the Patriots' videotaping procedures following a meeting at the downtown Westin. His thought is that the impact of the videotaping has been overblown. "It's absolutely ludicrous to believe it affects a play," he said. "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?" -- Boston Globe
Please, we've gone back and forth on this issue, but I mean this with complete sincerity, no side could possibly look worse than invoke Gene Upshaw's opinion on this matter. You're not the first to bring this quote out, but I have to say, almost nothing makes NE fans look worse in this thread than to cling to the words of this boob. And I would say the same if he tore Belichek a new one. Upshaw's a lap dog with zero credibility to me. Not a personal slag at any NE defenders or yourself, just more my opionion of worthless Gene.
Does that "explanation" even make sense????????Re-worded it could be: 'It's ridiculous to think their cheating effected the game, the Giants scored didn't they? Well, Didn't they? AHA!!! See."

 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.

 
Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.

“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”

Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.
Translation: "We want this to go away. Really bad."
Im going to bat here for Goodell, and in doing so, Im gonna provide a little more of the Polian statement that he made yesterday following a 90 minute meeting that he and other members of the Competition Committee had with the commish. Because Goodell is just one of several men at this point who's long standing NFL committment just seems to be thrown aside by those that are willing to disregard the integrity, intentions and trust of such men - men who's understanding and love for the game seems to be just a sidenote, and largely discounted as some sort of old-school, old-boy network method of sweeping things under the rug. Do these men want to protect the NFL? Obviously. Do they each need to sacrifice their own personal integrity to do so? That's not in any way a fair characterization to make.

Goodell has been hammered for destroying the spygate tapes by the press and others, or in more specific terms, people who have far less actual understanding of the NFL, far less relvance to it, and far less respect from it.

And when actual spoken words are made by respected men like Jeff Fisher, John Mara, Bill Polian and John McKay on the subject, Id like to see more of those words dropped in a 14 page thread that's been fueled by comments far less worthy. I dont have all of their quotes, but Id think they are google-ready or soon will be.

Here are more of Polian's thoughts on how Goodell handled the situation back in September:

"That process was fair, detailed, efficient, and what was on the tapes was explained to us. And what was in the notes was explained to us. And the reason that information was done away with was explained to us. And from my perspective - I can only speak for myself - my perspective - that was a thorough, fair, efficient process with lots of integrity. And they arrived at a disciplinary action which the commissioner thought was appropriate. And which met with previous precedent. Which, by the way, the commissioner is often times guided by. So, I think its fair to say we were satisfied by the explanation, satisfied with what was done. Atleast I am anyway. And its behind us. Its time to move forward."

Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick? Not everyone who makes a statement or takes action NOT throwing BB completely under the bus and scooping him up like the roadkill so many want him to be are driven by a set of suspicious intentions.

And I dont have any relevant opinion on Gene Upshaw other than he hasnt helped the old guard enough, which needs to change, but he's helped provide most his current constituency with lives they could only dream of. Its a tough, ugly job heading a union. He's made few friends, short of the men whove kept him employed for the length of his tenure. Setting up a salary structure to compensate 60 players per team, many of which are deservedly incredibly highly paid stars, while ensuring as much security and protection for those men, while every single year there are 200 plus new men looking to come in and steal their jobs away cant be an easy thing to do. So, I'll throw him a bone too, and assume there's a little more to his job than certainly I have even the slightest understanding of.

 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.
I'd say the new parts are that there's a former Pat player involved and that Fischer made it clear that the rule doesn't need to be clarified, therefore knocking BB's excuse a bit... If they reworded it, BB and his people would have jumped on that and said "SEE, it wasn't clear".. Fischer says it was VERY VERY clear.Oh Also... The competiton comittee wants it known that "EVERYONE" was NOT doing it.And Martz made the point that using the excuse "They couldn't have gained much from it" is ridiculous....So, pretty much a handful of excuses were knocked down a bit.
 
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Dman30 said:
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
The argument has never been "everyone is doing it".The argument is:

(a) the Pats are not singular in their attempts to steal signals (see, for example, Dolphins, Shanahan, Switzer, Parcells, Johnson, etc.).

(b) the fact that a league guidance memo, as opposed to a memo to New England only, makes that dynamic undeniable.

© the entirety of the league, including NON patriot fans like Rooney, Polian and Fisher have said "caught, punished, time to move on."

I view the Rams walkthrough question with more concerns about the validity of what the Patriots have accomplished. What we have so far is Matt Walsh and Bill Belichick making fundamentally conflicting claims. If Matt Walsh is able to coroborate his version of the incident, I will call for Belichick's resignation. If we never find out the rest of the story, I will continue to believe Belichick, and you will continue to believe Walsh. It's that simple.

To your other point, players have not come forward. A single player has made these comments. His name is Ted Johnson. Belichick has stated to the commissioner that videotaping was already happening when he arrived in New England. Call me when Parcells calls him a liar.

 
Swing 51 said:
S.K.A. said:
Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.
The New York Times website:
February 22, 2008

New Claim of Cheating Emerges Against Patriots

By JOHN BRANCH and GREG BISHOP

INDIANAPOLIS — The Patriots’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was then put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Belichick’s debut as New England’s head coach.

The habit of secretly taping signals, which is against league rules, continued at least through three championship seasons to the 2007 season opener against the Jets, when the Patriots were caught and subsequently sanctioned by the league.

But it was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at the Meadowlands. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant coach giving signals, several executives within the league said.

The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules.

That letter was cited by Commissioner Roger Goodell when he punished the Patriots. Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted cynically by some peers and league officials, hundreds of whom gathered here for the annual scouting combine to evaluate college players for the draft in April.

In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”

The league’s nine-member competition committee spent three days this week discussing various rules changes that it might recommend for next season. After a 90-minute briefing on the Patriots’ videotaping scandal Thursday by Goodell and three league vice presidents, the committee said taping rules would not be changed in the aftermath of the controversy.

“The rules are very, very clear,” said Tennessee Titans Coach Jeff Fisher, a committee member. “There is no need to be more specific or clarify any rules whatsoever as far as the bylaws are concerned.”

.
Goodell has got to come out and reiterate what happened and make it clear to everyone what the rules are and what the punishment was for. I posted a thread a while back that goes through my interpretation of the rules and I believe most of what this article claims is false.Are teams allowed to film Coordinators?

I can understand that the general public doesn't get it and even players. This Times article is wrong on so many levels. It's taking Jeff Fisher quote about not changing the rules about camera placement and assuming it means the league wont allow teams to film coaches. We've been over this time and time again, it's legal to film coaches, and you can review that film after the game. The areas that the Patriots put their camera's violated league rules, and they were punished for it. Don't let this general confusion about the situation make you less knowledgeable. This times article has no new information and just goes to show that most of the anger stemming from this whole thing is coming from the misconception that filming coaches is illegal.

 
Swing 51 said:
S.K.A. said:
Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.
The New York Times website:
February 22, 2008New Claim of Cheating Emerges Against PatriotsBy JOHN BRANCH and GREG BISHOPINDIANAPOLIS — The Patriots’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was then put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Belichick’s debut as New England’s head coach.The habit of secretly taping signals, which is against league rules, continued at least through three championship seasons to the 2007 season opener against the Jets, when the Patriots were caught and subsequently sanctioned by the league.But it was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at the Meadowlands. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant coach giving signals, several executives within the league said.The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules.That letter was cited by Commissioner Roger Goodell when he punished the Patriots. Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted cynically by some peers and league officials, hundreds of whom gathered here for the annual scouting combine to evaluate college players for the draft in April.In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”The league’s nine-member competition committee spent three days this week discussing various rules changes that it might recommend for next season. After a 90-minute briefing on the Patriots’ videotaping scandal Thursday by Goodell and three league vice presidents, the committee said taping rules would not be changed in the aftermath of the controversy.“The rules are very, very clear,” said Tennessee Titans Coach Jeff Fisher, a committee member. “There is no need to be more specific or clarify any rules whatsoever as far as the bylaws are concerned.”Questions still linger about how much of an advantage the Patriots may have had if they intercepted defensive signals. Under Belichick, the Patriots have often run a no-huddle offense, which forces opponents to quickly call a defensive play. N.F.L. rules allow quarterbacks to hear instructions from coaches — through a headset and into a speaker in the quarterback’s helmet — until there are 15 seconds left on a play clock.When the defensive play call is deciphered, the Patriots could call a play to counteract. This would lead to a sizable advantage.The Patriots lost the 2000 opener against the Buccaneers, the first time taped signals were used under Belichick, according the former Patriots player, who said he was among several former players interviewed by the N.F.L but did not want to speak publicly because it is an ongoing investigation.In September, Goodell fined Belichick $500,000, fined the Patriots $250,000, and took away a first-round draft choice in 2008. After the sanctions were announced, the Patriots submitted six tapes, from games in 2006 and 2007, and some notes that dated to 2002, Goodell said. The tapes and notes were destroyed days after being handed to the league, because Goodell considered the matter closed.But questions remain about how wide and deep the Patriots’ taping habits extended. Senator Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican who met with Goodell last week, is among those still questioning why the league was so quick to sanction the Patriots and destroy the evidence.Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.”Yet emerging details continue to pull the league back in time. On Feb. 2, The Boston Herald reported that the Patriots may have also taped a Rams walkthrough practice the day before the teams played in the 2002 Super Bowl. The Patriots won, 20-17, on a last-second field goal. Belichick, speaking to The Boston Globe, recently denied that the practice was taped.In the hallway at the convention center here, Mike Martz wanted to talk about his new job as offensive coordinator with the 49ers. Instead, reporters peppered him with questions about the Patriots. Martz was head coach of the Rams when the teams met in the Super Bowl six years ago.He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walk-through. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.“For somebody to say that, it’s kind of disgusting,” Martz said. “The whole point is if they really cheated. To say he took some steroids and it did help or it didn’t help, that’s never the point. The point is, to all these high school coaches and high school kids and college kids, that if they did cheat, that’s the point.”Martz said he assumed the walkthrough report is false. Martz was asked if he wanted the N.F.L. to continue investigating the walkthrough. “Of course,” he said. “I was involved in that, I was responsible for a lot of people in that game.”He declined to comment about a class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of a former Rams player, a seat-license holder and Super Bowl ticket holders.Executives dismissed any lingering notions that the Patriots’ taping opponents was a common practice around the league. While teams have long tried to steal signals, the Patriots, it is believed, are the only ones who actively taped them.“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”Belichick was not seen in the hallways of the convention center Thursday. Representatives of 21 teams are scheduled to meet with reporters for news conferences from Thursday to Sunday. Belichick and the Patriots are not among them.
This is bad news for the Patriots. Whereas before the league was working with the Patriots to try and sweep everything under the table, this article reads to me like the league may be trying to distance itself from the Pats.
 
"The habit of secretly taping signals, which is against league rules,"

Again, taping signals isn't illegal. Taping signals from the sideline, however, is illegal. I can't figure out why nobody understands this.

 
Dman30 said:
“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

So what are Patriots fans going to say now? Haven't they been leaning on their flawed argument that 'everyone is doing it'

Also, I find it interesting that former Patriots players have stepped forward and talked about how the cheating has been going on since way back in 2000.
The argument has never been "everyone is doing it".The argument is:

(a) the Pats are not singular in their attempts to steal signals (see, for example, Dolphins, Shanahan, Switzer, Parcells, Johnson, etc.).

(b) the fact that a league guidance memo, as opposed to a memo to New England only, makes that dynamic undeniable.

© the entirety of the league, including NON patriot fans like Rooney, Polian and Fisher have said "caught, punished, time to move on."

I view the Rams walkthrough question with more concerns about the validity of what the Patriots have accomplished. What we have so far is Matt Walsh and Bill Belichick making fundamentally conflicting claims. If Matt Walsh is able to coroborate his version of the incident, I will call for Belichick's resignation. If we never find out the rest of the story, I will continue to believe Belichick, and you will continue to believe Walsh. It's that simple.

To your other point, players have not come forward. A single player has made these comments. His name is Ted Johnson. Belichick has stated to the commissioner that videotaping was already happening when he arrived in New England. Call me when Parcells calls him a liar.
I agree with where youre going here. Only to make the point that Walsh doesnt even have a version. He hasnt made a claim. He hasnt even said as much what size shoe he wears. He has alot of reporters and lawyers speaking for him right now, and based on what he says in the original article written by Mike Fish on ESPN.com, I wouldnt expect he'd be real happy about that. He made it pretty clear in that article that he had nothing at all to gain from all of this. But its a little late now. Blood's in the water and the sharks are aplenty. Here's that Fish article for anyone who wants a refresher:

2 Days Before the Superbowl

You know, its not even the importance of the events that are taking place which bother me. Its the mere fact that this stuff came out 2 days before the Superbowl. The truth is a beautiful thing. We all welcome it. But 2 days before the 'big game'?

Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.

 
Swing 51 said:
S.K.A. said:
Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.
-snip article-This is bad news for the Patriots. Whereas before the league was working with the Patriots to try and sweep everything under the table, this article reads to me like the league may be trying to distance itself from the Pats.
More details, but its the same infraction they've admitted to and been punished for, IMO.
 
Swing 51 said:
S.K.A. said:
Drudge has a headline about new cheating allegations coming to light.
The New York Times website:
February 22, 2008New Claim of Cheating Emerges Against PatriotsBy JOHN BRANCH and GREG BISHOPINDIANAPOLIS — The Patriots’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was then put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Belichick’s debut as New England’s head coach.The habit of secretly taping signals, which is against league rules, continued at least through three championship seasons to the 2007 season opener against the Jets, when the Patriots were caught and subsequently sanctioned by the league.But it was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at the Meadowlands. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant coach giving signals, several executives within the league said.The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules.That letter was cited by Commissioner Roger Goodell when he punished the Patriots. Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted cynically by some peers and league officials, hundreds of whom gathered here for the annual scouting combine to evaluate college players for the draft in April.In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”The league’s nine-member competition committee spent three days this week discussing various rules changes that it might recommend for next season. After a 90-minute briefing on the Patriots’ videotaping scandal Thursday by Goodell and three league vice presidents, the committee said taping rules would not be changed in the aftermath of the controversy.“The rules are very, very clear,” said Tennessee Titans Coach Jeff Fisher, a committee member. “There is no need to be more specific or clarify any rules whatsoever as far as the bylaws are concerned.”Questions still linger about how much of an advantage the Patriots may have had if they intercepted defensive signals. Under Belichick, the Patriots have often run a no-huddle offense, which forces opponents to quickly call a defensive play. N.F.L. rules allow quarterbacks to hear instructions from coaches — through a headset and into a speaker in the quarterback’s helmet — until there are 15 seconds left on a play clock.When the defensive play call is deciphered, the Patriots could call a play to counteract. This would lead to a sizable advantage.The Patriots lost the 2000 opener against the Buccaneers, the first time taped signals were used under Belichick, according the former Patriots player, who said he was among several former players interviewed by the N.F.L but did not want to speak publicly because it is an ongoing investigation.In September, Goodell fined Belichick $500,000, fined the Patriots $250,000, and took away a first-round draft choice in 2008. After the sanctions were announced, the Patriots submitted six tapes, from games in 2006 and 2007, and some notes that dated to 2002, Goodell said. The tapes and notes were destroyed days after being handed to the league, because Goodell considered the matter closed.But questions remain about how wide and deep the Patriots’ taping habits extended. Senator Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican who met with Goodell last week, is among those still questioning why the league was so quick to sanction the Patriots and destroy the evidence.Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of it of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.“We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”Bill Polian, the Colts’ president, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.”Yet emerging details continue to pull the league back in time. On Feb. 2, The Boston Herald reported that the Patriots may have also taped a Rams walkthrough practice the day before the teams played in the 2002 Super Bowl. The Patriots won, 20-17, on a last-second field goal. Belichick, speaking to The Boston Globe, recently denied that the practice was taped.In the hallway at the convention center here, Mike Martz wanted to talk about his new job as offensive coordinator with the 49ers. Instead, reporters peppered him with questions about the Patriots. Martz was head coach of the Rams when the teams met in the Super Bowl six years ago.He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walk-through. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.“For somebody to say that, it’s kind of disgusting,” Martz said. “The whole point is if they really cheated. To say he took some steroids and it did help or it didn’t help, that’s never the point. The point is, to all these high school coaches and high school kids and college kids, that if they did cheat, that’s the point.”Martz said he assumed the walkthrough report is false. Martz was asked if he wanted the N.F.L. to continue investigating the walkthrough. “Of course,” he said. “I was involved in that, I was responsible for a lot of people in that game.”He declined to comment about a class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of a former Rams player, a seat-license holder and Super Bowl ticket holders.Executives dismissed any lingering notions that the Patriots’ taping opponents was a common practice around the league. While teams have long tried to steal signals, the Patriots, it is believed, are the only ones who actively taped them.“I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”Belichick was not seen in the hallways of the convention center Thursday. Representatives of 21 teams are scheduled to meet with reporters for news conferences from Thursday to Sunday. Belichick and the Patriots are not among them.
This is bad news for the Patriots. Whereas before the league was working with the Patriots to try and sweep everything under the table, this article reads to me like the league may be trying to distance itself from the Pats.
That was the general theme of the article, so the author was very effective in delivering his intent. If you actually saw some of the PC at which these men spoke, youd understand theyre not trying to distance themselves from anything. Taking a quote here or there isnt doing what these guys had to say justice. But its a pretty effective way to shape a story. They were making statements that were both supportive and critical. In other words, they were objective and fair. Something we find far less of from our friends in mass media.
 
You know, its not even the importance of the events that are taking place which bother me. Its the mere fact that this stuff came out 2 days before the Superbowl. The truth is a beautiful thing. We all welcome it. But 2 days before the 'big game'? Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.
You do realize that the whole spygate thing was being investigate LONG before the SB, right? You're not that blinded of a Pats fan to really think this "just came up", or "wasn't being talked about" until 2 days before the game, right?
 
You know, its not even the importance of the events that are taking place which bother me. Its the mere fact that this stuff came out 2 days before the Superbowl. The truth is a beautiful thing. We all welcome it. But 2 days before the 'big game'? Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.
You do realize that the whole spygate thing was being investigate LONG before the SB, right? You're not that blinded of a Pats fan to really think this "just came up", or "wasn't being talked about" until 2 days before the game, right?
Switz, the measures you take to insult the intelligence of Patriots fans literally knows no bounds. No, I had no idea that story broke back in September. This was all new to me as I woke up the Friday before the Superbowl. The sand at the beach I live on is pretty deep, so forgive me. My head must have been buried in that month. You are a funny guy, though.
 
This whole thing reminds me of when John Clayton was running around after superbowl XL saying that if you got one foot in bounds and one foot grazed the pylon then that meant there was possession and you scored a touch down. This whole article is nothing but a clear misinterpretation of the NFL rules. They say time and time again that filming coaches is illegal and we should all understand by now that that’s just wrong.

I mean if the Times made an article saying that some team got screwed out of a touchdown because they were ruled out on the one when they really should've scored since the ball was out of bounds but the endzone extends around the world would you really believe that? No because that’s not the freaking rule. Read the article again keeping in mind that it’s not illegal to film coaches and you realize how wrong the writer of that is.

 
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Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.
:popcorn:You can blame your good ol' boy Goodell. Specter contacted Goodell by letter both in October and November, and Goodell blew him off. Face it, New England got knocked on their butts....quit trying to make excuses why they lost the game.
 
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Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick?
No.Once the NFL commissioner destroyed what little evidence he (says he) had, he became part of the problem. Goodell treated the problem as if it was only a matter of cheating and getting punished. But he ignored the problem of distrust. The game we see played on the field is one we want to see played fairly, under a basic set of rule for players and coaches and owners that gives each team the same opportunity to win the game. Once one team seemed to be playing with an unfair advantage, belief in that underlying set of fairness began to erode. And destroying the evidence did a huge amount to erode trust, probably more than the cheating itself. Goodell no longer looks like the sheriff bringing justice to the NFL world. He looks like a prosecutor trying to cut deals for a defendant buddy who's really on the same side he is --- the side of "let's keep this quiet and make things look all right and it'll go away." It was a stupid, shortsighted move destroying the evidence, and he deserves both criticism for doing it and ongoing suspicion that he's going to continue to try to cover things up ---- since he's already done it before.
 
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Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.
:thumbup:You can blame your good ol' boy Goodell. Specter contacted Goodell by letter both in October and November, and Goodell blew him off. Face it, New England got knocked on their butts....quit trying to make excuses why they lost the game.
Yes and they can also blame their coach, for if he did not ignore the league memo that went out before the season, they wouldn't be in this mess.
 
Ive heard the mention made that Belichick stole from the game. I wont even bother arguing that point. But releasing a story like this by the Globe, or by Fish, or by Specter or whoever wants to take credit for it, 2 days before the Superbowl, in effect is cheating the game. It took the focus off of players who've committed their lives to reaching the pinnacle of their profession, and the game itself, and placed it in instead on some kid in Hawaii now just trying to make a living. None of those people care about what eventually happens to him. People dont care about little 'pawns' like Matt Walsh. Theyre not striving to 'protect' anything. Least of all the great game we all love.
:DYou can blame your good ol' boy Goodell. Specter contacted Goodell by letter both in October and November, and Goodell blew him off. Face it, New England got knocked on their butts....quit trying to make excuses why they lost the game.
Spector did send the letter to the wrong address since he's a senile old guy. That had an effect on it taking so long to get to Goodell unless you'd like to assume he's lying about that. Goodell gave him his contact information after he first replied to Spectors letter.
 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.
I'd say the new parts are that there's a former Pat player involved and that Fischer made it clear that the rule doesn't need to be clarified, therefore knocking BB's excuse a bit... If they reworded it, BB and his people would have jumped on that and said "SEE, it wasn't clear".. Fischer says it was VERY VERY clear.Oh Also... The competiton comittee wants it known that "EVERYONE" was NOT doing it.

And Martz made the point that using the excuse "They couldn't have gained much from it" is ridiculous....

So, pretty much a handful of excuses were knocked down a bit.
IN addition, Shannahan said that a guy with binoculars in the stands could sometimes get signals figured out by halftime or even the end of the 1st quarter, imagine what a few guys around a monitor could do, with a pipeline right to Brady through BB's microphone. And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.As for performance, sure the team has to go out there and perform. And no taping is going to prevent a fumble or a great scramble. But if the game isn't as close as it is because of the advantages gained, then these BIG plays just become regular plays. Manning hitting Tyree for 32 yards is a great play, but not as much of an influence on the game if they're up by 10 points at the time.

As for the "misinterpretation of the rule", BB's own mouth leads me to believe that that is a load of crap. In his vehement defensive statement he says that "we thought we found a gray area in the rule". If you understand a rule so much that you think you've identified a gray area, then you're not misinterpreting the rule, you're deliberately trying to circumvent it. It's a conscious attempt to "misinterpret" it. Add in Fisher's comments that the rule is very specific and doesn't need to be changed then you've got BB's "excuse" as nothing more than so much donkey dung. And you don't do something like this if it doesn't have an advantage. Period. Why waste the time doing something that's against the rules if it doesn't help you? Why have your video guy relentlessly attempt to keep filming while being kicked out while playing NFC teams (GB, DET for example) if it didn't offer you any insight for that game?

For as many coaches that say there is no advantage, there are coaches who say there are. It's not a defense, IMO, to hold up Jimmy Johnson and friends as proof that the cheating wasn't advantageous when you can come right back with Martz and Skeletor saying it could be.

 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.
I'd say the new parts are that there's a former Pat player involved and that Fischer made it clear that the rule doesn't need to be clarified, therefore knocking BB's excuse a bit... If they reworded it, BB and his people would have jumped on that and said "SEE, it wasn't clear".. Fischer says it was VERY VERY clear.Oh Also... The competiton comittee wants it known that "EVERYONE" was NOT doing it.

And Martz made the point that using the excuse "They couldn't have gained much from it" is ridiculous....

So, pretty much a handful of excuses were knocked down a bit.
IN addition, Shannahan said that a guy with binoculars in the stands could sometimes get signals figured out by halftime or even the end of the 1st quarter, imagine what a few guys around a monitor could do, with a pipeline right to Brady through BB's microphone. And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.As for performance, sure the team has to go out there and perform. And no taping is going to prevent a fumble or a great scramble. But if the game isn't as close as it is because of the advantages gained, then these BIG plays just become regular plays. Manning hitting Tyree for 32 yards is a great play, but not as much of an influence on the game if they're up by 10 points at the time.

As for the "misinterpretation of the rule", BB's own mouth leads me to believe that that is a load of crap. In his vehement defensive statement he says that "we thought we found a gray area in the rule". If you understand a rule so much that you think you've identified a gray area, then you're not misinterpreting the rule, you're deliberately trying to circumvent it. It's a conscious attempt to "misinterpret" it. Add in Fisher's comments that the rule is very specific and doesn't need to be changed then you've got BB's "excuse" as nothing more than so much donkey dung. And you don't do something like this if it doesn't have an advantage. Period. Why waste the time doing something that's against the rules if it doesn't help you? Why have your video guy relentlessly attempt to keep filming while being kicked out while playing NFC teams (GB, DET for example) if it didn't offer you any insight for that game?

For as many coaches that say there is no advantage, there are coaches who say there are. It's not a defense, IMO, to hold up Jimmy Johnson and friends as proof that the cheating wasn't advantageous when you can come right back with Martz and Skeletor saying it could be.
:shrug: :moneybag:
 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.
I'd say the new parts are that there's a former Pat player involved and that Fischer made it clear that the rule doesn't need to be clarified, therefore knocking BB's excuse a bit... If they reworded it, BB and his people would have jumped on that and said "SEE, it wasn't clear".. Fischer says it was VERY VERY clear.Oh Also... The competiton comittee wants it known that "EVERYONE" was NOT doing it.

And Martz made the point that using the excuse "They couldn't have gained much from it" is ridiculous....

So, pretty much a handful of excuses were knocked down a bit.
IN addition, Shannahan said that a guy with binoculars in the stands could sometimes get signals figured out by halftime or even the end of the 1st quarter, imagine what a few guys around a monitor could do, with a pipeline right to Brady through BB's microphone. And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.As for performance, sure the team has to go out there and perform. And no taping is going to prevent a fumble or a great scramble. But if the game isn't as close as it is because of the advantages gained, then these BIG plays just become regular plays. Manning hitting Tyree for 32 yards is a great play, but not as much of an influence on the game if they're up by 10 points at the time.

As for the "misinterpretation of the rule", BB's own mouth leads me to believe that that is a load of crap. In his vehement defensive statement he says that "we thought we found a gray area in the rule". If you understand a rule so much that you think you've identified a gray area, then you're not misinterpreting the rule, you're deliberately trying to circumvent it. It's a conscious attempt to "misinterpret" it. Add in Fisher's comments that the rule is very specific and doesn't need to be changed then you've got BB's "excuse" as nothing more than so much donkey dung. And you don't do something like this if it doesn't have an advantage. Period. Why waste the time doing something that's against the rules if it doesn't help you? Why have your video guy relentlessly attempt to keep filming while being kicked out while playing NFC teams (GB, DET for example) if it didn't offer you any insight for that game?

For as many coaches that say there is no advantage, there are coaches who say there are. It's not a defense, IMO, to hold up Jimmy Johnson and friends as proof that the cheating wasn't advantageous when you can come right back with Martz and Skeletor saying it could be.
The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened. Everything points to the patriots filming coordinators out of position and trying to interpret calls for later games. The only thing illegal about that is filming out of position and there doesn't seem to be any reason why there would be an advantage to that as opposed to filming in a legal position and doing the same thing. The league agrees with you that it was a conscious rule violation and that’s why they were punished so badly. It doesn't matter if some coaches think its an advantage to interpret teams signals and others don't its not illegal if done correctly so teams are free to make up there own mind about committing time to doing it.

 
Is this really new information? Goodell already said publicly that the taping dated back to 2000 and Belichick admitted as much to him.
I'd say the new parts are that there's a former Pat player involved and that Fischer made it clear that the rule doesn't need to be clarified, therefore knocking BB's excuse a bit... If they reworded it, BB and his people would have jumped on that and said "SEE, it wasn't clear".. Fischer says it was VERY VERY clear.Oh Also... The competiton comittee wants it known that "EVERYONE" was NOT doing it.

And Martz made the point that using the excuse "They couldn't have gained much from it" is ridiculous....

So, pretty much a handful of excuses were knocked down a bit.
IN addition, Shannahan said that a guy with binoculars in the stands could sometimes get signals figured out by halftime or even the end of the 1st quarter, imagine what a few guys around a monitor could do, with a pipeline right to Brady through BB's microphone. And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.As for performance, sure the team has to go out there and perform. And no taping is going to prevent a fumble or a great scramble. But if the game isn't as close as it is because of the advantages gained, then these BIG plays just become regular plays. Manning hitting Tyree for 32 yards is a great play, but not as much of an influence on the game if they're up by 10 points at the time.

As for the "misinterpretation of the rule", BB's own mouth leads me to believe that that is a load of crap. In his vehement defensive statement he says that "we thought we found a gray area in the rule". If you understand a rule so much that you think you've identified a gray area, then you're not misinterpreting the rule, you're deliberately trying to circumvent it. It's a conscious attempt to "misinterpret" it. Add in Fisher's comments that the rule is very specific and doesn't need to be changed then you've got BB's "excuse" as nothing more than so much donkey dung. And you don't do something like this if it doesn't have an advantage. Period. Why waste the time doing something that's against the rules if it doesn't help you? Why have your video guy relentlessly attempt to keep filming while being kicked out while playing NFC teams (GB, DET for example) if it didn't offer you any insight for that game?

For as many coaches that say there is no advantage, there are coaches who say there are. It's not a defense, IMO, to hold up Jimmy Johnson and friends as proof that the cheating wasn't advantageous when you can come right back with Martz and Skeletor saying it could be.
:goodposting: :thanks:
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent? Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.

Isn't looking for advantageous loopholes part of the game? Since we're in tax season, here's a thought that came to mind.

Don't most taxpayers pay for the expertise of tax accountants to interpret the tax code and find the loopholes in the code to write off as much as possible to pay as little as possible? Is the intent of the tax code to have you claim a home business so you can write off that new computer? Or is the rule written so that even understanding the intent, you can reasonbly claim to be within the written rule?

 
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?
You call the league and make sure of your own "unsureness". Anything else is cheating. Because you are already deliberating about the rule in question.
 
This is bad news for the Patriots. Whereas before the league was working with the Patriots to try and sweep everything under the table, this article reads to me like the league may be trying to distance itself from the Pats.
Goodell is in a much tougher position since the Specter meeting forced him to reveal that the Pats had been cheating since 2000. He had kept that under wraps and used terminology that made it sound like there was just taping for 2006. Plus, he needlessly destroyed the evidence. I don't know what he is plans on doing going forward, but he can't step in and take another bullet without destroying the remainder of his credibility.
 
This times article has no new information and just goes to show that most of the anger stemming from this whole thing is coming from the misconception that filming coaches is illegal.
Though I agree with you that the Times article has more inaccuracies than I can count, it does have one piece of new information. Namely, that the Pats were "caught" in 2006 but that the NFL couldn't do anything until they "detailed the league's interpretation".In other words, the Patriots' actions were not officially deemed to be against the rules until 2006. So, aside from the Walsh allegations, any complaints about "cheating" from 2000-2005 are officially bogus. The Pats only violated the official rules in 2006 and in the first quarter of the first game of 2007.
 
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?

Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.
Except that you have it backward. The Patriots were abiding by the spirit of the rule (that videotaping cannot be used during the game), but not the letter of the rule (specific guidelines to ensure that videotaping cannot even be accessed during the game).
 
This times article has no new information and just goes to show that most of the anger stemming from this whole thing is coming from the misconception that filming coaches is illegal.
Though I agree with you that the Times article has more inaccuracies than I can count, it does have one piece of new information. Namely, that the Pats were "caught" in 2006 but that the NFL couldn't do anything until they "detailed the league's interpretation".In other words, the Patriots' actions were not officially deemed to be against the rules until 2006. So, aside from the Walsh allegations, any complaints about "cheating" from 2000-2005 are officially bogus. The Pats only violated the official rules in 2006 and in the first quarter of the first game of 2007.
Well by all means, case closed. :towelwave:
 
And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.
The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.
The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.

 
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?

Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.
Except that you have it backward. The Patriots were abiding by the spirit of the rule (that videotaping cannot be used during the game), but not the letter of the rule (specific guidelines to ensure that videotaping cannot even be accessed during the game).
Huh? The spirit of the rule is to prohibit filming signals from certain positions, regardless of whether it is used during the game or at a later time.
 
This times article has no new information and just goes to show that most of the anger stemming from this whole thing is coming from the misconception that filming coaches is illegal.
Though I agree with you that the Times article has more inaccuracies than I can count, it does have one piece of new information. Namely, that the Pats were "caught" in 2006 but that the NFL couldn't do anything until they "detailed the league's interpretation".In other words, the Patriots' actions were not officially deemed to be against the rules until 2006. So, aside from the Walsh allegations, any complaints about "cheating" from 2000-2005 are officially bogus. The Pats only violated the official rules in 2006 and in the first quarter of the first game of 2007.
I don't think that’s accurate though. The article says they were caught in 2006 and that the memo was sent to everyone to reiterate it. It doesn't really mean though that they weren't filming out of position before 2006 just that thats when the NFL first realized teams weren't following the rule. You can't really make the assumption either way as only the Patriots would've known and they've only said that they have been filming since 2000 not that they were specifically filming out of position and breaking the rule. My assumption would be that they probably did since there’s really no reason to think they'd suddenly start in 2006.
 
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?

Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.
Except that you have it backward. The Patriots were abiding by the spirit of the rule (that videotaping cannot be used during the game), but not the letter of the rule (specific guidelines to ensure that videotaping cannot even be accessed during the game).
You're right. I still would like to see thoughts on what people think about looking for/ finding / exploiting loopholes.
 
This times article has no new information and just goes to show that most of the anger stemming from this whole thing is coming from the misconception that filming coaches is illegal.
Though I agree with you that the Times article has more inaccuracies than I can count, it does have one piece of new information. Namely, that the Pats were "caught" in 2006 but that the NFL couldn't do anything until they "detailed the league's interpretation".In other words, the Patriots' actions were not officially deemed to be against the rules until 2006.

So, aside from the Walsh allegations, any complaints about "cheating" from 2000-2005 are officially bogus. The Pats only violated the official rules in 2006 and in the first quarter of the first game of 2007.
Incorrect. They WERE deemed "against the rules" - but the NFL chose to "warn" them, instead of punish them. And they "warned" them, and all teams, by sending a memo reminding them of the rule, and notifying them it would be enforced.This is a typical response in most of corporate America.

 
And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.
The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.
The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.
But now we're in the realm of utter speculation. Can we please keep the thread limited to the actual facts and allegations without inventing new ones?
 
And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.
The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.
The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.
But now we're in the realm of utter speculation. Can we please keep the thread limited to the actual facts and allegations without inventing new ones?
Then do it and quit looking ridiculous.
 
If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?

Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.
Except that you have it backward. The Patriots were abiding by the spirit of the rule (that videotaping cannot be used during the game), but not the letter of the rule (specific guidelines to ensure that videotaping cannot even be accessed during the game).
Huh? The spirit of the rule is to prohibit filming signals from certain positions, regardless of whether it is used during the game or at a later time.
Having read the rule a few times, the rule prohibits any recording device, beyond poloriod photos, from being used anywhere accessible to the staff during the playing of a game. The letter of the rule prohibits filming from certain locations. The spirit of the rule is that you should not have in-game access to the information being recorded. Post game access to any such information is OK.The rule is not about location as much as about staff access, and a logical progression of why the rule is about staff access was to prohibit in-game usage of the materials. Assuming there was no in-game usage of the tapes, there is no inherent advantage to collecting the same footage from an accessible location vs. an inaccessible location.

 
I don't think that’s accurate though. The article says they were caught in 2006 and that the memo was sent to everyone to reiterate it.
I've seen nothing that indicates that the memo "reiterated" anything. It looks like the memo issued a new interpretation that the NFL expected everyone to live by from here on out.Let me put it this way -- if the rule was so clear-cut that the NFL was just "reiterating" what everyone already knew, why didn't they punish the Pats back in 2006?

 

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