FOX Sports is reporting Pats taped practice (1 Viewer)

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick?

Nnce the NFL commissioner destroyed what little evidence he (says he) had, he became part of the problem. Goodell treated the problem as if it was only a matter of cheating and getting punished. But he ignored the problem of distrust. The game we see played on the field is one we want to see played fairly, under a basic set of rule for players and coaches and owners that gives each team the same opportunity to win the game. Once one team seemed to be playing with an unfair advantage, belief in that underlying set of fairness began to erode. And destroying the evidence did a huge amount to erode trust, probably more than the cheating itself. Goodell no longer looks like the sheriff bringing justice to the NFL world. He looks like a prosecutor trying to cut deals for a defendant buddy who's really on the same side he is --- the side of "let's keep this quiet and make things look all right and it'll go away." It was a stupid, shortsighted move destroying the evidence, and he deserves both criticism for doing it and ongoing suspicion that he's going to continue to try to cover things up ---- since he's already done it before.

Let's summarize.Those who share your opinion are not only aligning their perspective against the evil Belichick and Goodell, they are also saying that they reject what Rooney, Polian, Fisher and others have said about the veracity of punishment versus the infractions.I'm gonna go ahead and say that what they have to say on this matter is a lot more significant than that of the bashers around here.

 

[mad sweeney]

Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick?

Nnce the NFL commissioner destroyed what little evidence he (says he) had, he became part of the problem. Goodell treated the problem as if it was only a matter of cheating and getting punished. But he ignored the problem of distrust. The game we see played on the field is one we want to see played fairly, under a basic set of rule for players and coaches and owners that gives each team the same opportunity to win the game. Once one team seemed to be playing with an unfair advantage, belief in that underlying set of fairness began to erode. And destroying the evidence did a huge amount to erode trust, probably more than the cheating itself. Goodell no longer looks like the sheriff bringing justice to the NFL world. He looks like a prosecutor trying to cut deals for a defendant buddy who's really on the same side he is --- the side of "let's keep this quiet and make things look all right and it'll go away." It was a stupid, shortsighted move destroying the evidence, and he deserves both criticism for doing it and ongoing suspicion that he's going to continue to try to cover things up ---- since he's already done it before.

Let's summarize.Those who share your opinion are not only aligning their perspective against the evil Belichick and Goodell, they are also saying that they reject what Rooney, Polian, Fisher and others have said about the veracity of punishment versus the infractions.I'm gonna go ahead and say that what they have to say on this matter is a lot more significant than that of the bashers around here.

And Fisher says the rule is detailed enough not to be misinterpreted. So if we go by what Fisher said, then BB's "misinterpretation" defense is BS.

 

[AB in DC]

If a rule has a specific intent ( to prevent an advantage being gained by one side of a contest ), but is written in such a way that it can be legally circumvented, is it incumbent on the team to try to abide by the spirit of the rule, or are they allowed to abide by the letter of the rule and circumvent its intent?

Before you jump on me, I understand the ruling has been been handed down that what the Patriots did was not a "legal circumventing." This is more of a philosophical question.

Except that you have it backward. The Patriots were abiding by the spirit of the rule (that videotaping cannot be used during the game), but not the letter of the rule (specific guidelines to ensure that videotaping cannot even be accessed during the game).

Huh? The spirit of the rule is to prohibit filming signals from certain positions, regardless of whether it is used during the game or at a later time.

These "certain positions" were specifically the positions that could be accessed during the game. Otherwise there'd be no purpose in forbidding videotaping from some positions but not from others.

 

[kevinray]

And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.

The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.

The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.

You really can't assume it’s happened. The wait and see approach has to be taken with this. Really the filming of signals would have nothing to do with using the wireless system illegally. Any team could do that and aid their QB without needing a guy filming a Coordinator. In fact patching the film in looking at it and patching into the QB's ear with a change of play would be more time consuming then just having the radio guy use binoculars and tell the QB what to do. The NFL monitors the headsets and any illegal use of them would be bad news for the team that did it. You can't just say you don't trust the NFL so any the Pats could potentially do has to be assumed to have happened. It’s just not a good argument.

 

[Kiddnets]

Upshaw is a moron - "Look at the play in the Super Bowl, you can have all the film in the world but Eli [Manning] still gets out of the pocket, sheds those tackles, and throws that ball. Then go back to the Super Bowl against St. Louis, do you think filming had anything to do with Kurt Warner's fumble?"

Maybe knowing what the other team is doing leads to pressure that causes fumbles and other plays - the owners want this to go away even if it means the Pats get away with murder because if the full extent of this is revealed there will be severe distrust of the game and possibly federal intervention.

As we have seen before - once the wheels are set in motion its almost impossible to stop - the truth will come out even thought the NFL does not want it to - this will not go away any time soon. An entire dynasty is tainted - that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal - I'm sure their fans were in denial and defending the team back then as well!

 

[mad sweeney]

And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.

The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.

The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.

You really can't assume it’s happened. The wait and see approach has to be taken with this. Really the filming of signals would have nothing to do with using the wireless system illegally. Any team could do that and aid their QB without needing a guy filming a Coordinator. In fact patching the film in looking at it and patching into the QB's ear with a change of play would be more time consuming then just having the radio guy use binoculars and tell the QB what to do. The NFL monitors the headsets and any illegal use of them would be bad news for the team that did it. You can't just say you don't trust the NFL so any the Pats could potentially do has to be assumed to have happened. It’s just not a good argument.

The NFL only monitors the officially allowed frequencies. The Pats were at one time using more than the official channels alloted to them. I don't recall the details, but if they were using extra channels the NFL wasn't monitoring, then you could see how abuse could happen. I realize the RF stuff isn't as cut and dry as the taping and am not using it as a main thrust of the argument, but it's a definite possibility that should be looked at more thoroughly if any of these Walsh implications turn out to be true.

 

[kevinray]

I don't think that’s accurate though. The article says they were caught in 2006 and that the memo was sent to everyone to reiterate it.

I've seen nothing that indicates that the memo "reiterated" anything. It looks like the memo issued a new interpretation that the NFL expected everyone to live by from here on out.Let me put it this way -- if the rule was so clear-cut that the NFL was just "reiterating" what everyone already knew, why didn't they punish the Pats back in 2006?

It "reiterated" the original rule in my opinion. The contents of the memo and the rule on pg 105 really don't say anything different. They only took the Patriots tapes from the memo on because they decided that’s when they would begin to enforce the old rule in my opinion.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

 

[kevinray]

And that's without taking into account the frequency irregularities ,such as unauthorized channels being used, that seem to be common complaints when playing the Pats. Doesn't seem to hard to imagine a scenario where this could be effective.

The NFL looked into this issue. They said there wasn't any evidence of this happening and there hasn't been any accusations of this from any one but message board people. This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened.

The NFL is not particularly credible either. There are probably people on this message board with enough skill to intercept voice transmissions between the sidelines and the QB and to mess with channels being used. I'm not saying it's been done, and I agree with you that (as far as we know) no proof of it has come out publicly. But I do not agree that it's been thoroughly investigated, based on NFL say-so. And I'd be surprised if it hasn't been attempted.

You really can't assume it’s happened. The wait and see approach has to be taken with this. Really the filming of signals would have nothing to do with using the wireless system illegally. Any team could do that and aid their QB without needing a guy filming a Coordinator. In fact patching the film in looking at it and patching into the QB's ear with a change of play would be more time consuming then just having the radio guy use binoculars and tell the QB what to do. The NFL monitors the headsets and any illegal use of them would be bad news for the team that did it. You can't just say you don't trust the NFL so any the Pats could potentially do has to be assumed to have happened. It’s just not a good argument.

The NFL only monitors the officially allowed frequencies. The Pats were at one time using more than the official channels alloted to them. I don't recall the details, but if they were using extra channels the NFL wasn't monitoring, then you could see how abuse could happen. I realize the RF stuff isn't as cut and dry as the taping and am not using it as a main thrust of the argument, but it's a definite possibility that should be looked at more thoroughly if any of these Walsh implications turn out to be true.

I can agree with that. An independent investigation wouldn't be the worst thing, but we certainly can't assume that kind of gross infraction that would probably result in season’s worth of stats and wins taken away with out some real evidence or at least a real accusation of it from opponents or the league. So far I don't know of any of it being brought up yet and I think a wait and see approach would need to taken for any accusations that haven't come up yet.ETA: If the NFL really is being so lax with the monitoring of the wireless system or its so difficult to assure that its only used to send in plays then they really need to do away with it as using it illegally would have a huge affect on games. This would be a problem for every team in the league. If it were easy to do the benefits gained would be too much for most of the teams in the NFL to resist.

 

[switz]

I don't think that’s accurate though. The article says they were caught in 2006 and that the memo was sent to everyone to reiterate it.

I've seen nothing that indicates that the memo "reiterated" anything. It looks like the memo issued a new interpretation that the NFL expected everyone to live by from here on out.Let me put it this way -- if the rule was so clear-cut that the NFL was just "reiterating" what everyone already knew, why didn't they punish the Pats back in 2006?

Because, as is needed when punishment like this is handed out, there needs to be a trail to support it's validity. I'm assuming you've never taken any management training, but it's pretty standard practice to inform any new employee of the rules, warn on the first infraction, punish on the second. It eliminates terminating an employee for "an honest mistake" and eliminates needless appeals on the basis of "not knowing."

Often termination takes place after a number of documented infractions and warnings.

So just because the NFL didn't crack the whip until this year, doesn't mean the Patriots weren't breaking the rule.

 

[Gandalf]

I have a question. How many other teams do this and we just never hear about it? Most, hardly any or somewhere in between? If everyone else in the league is doing it, I think the Pats are getting a bad rap.

 

[Andy Herron]

Interesting sidebar to this whole fiasco.

It would seem Sen. Arlen Specter has been down this road before.

"Controversy surrounding a high-profile investigation involving conspiracy theories, cover-ups, and what film may or may not reveal."

Arlen Specter served as assistant council to the Warren Commission and authored the "single bullet theory" in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Must be in his blood to pursue such a thing.

Nonetheless, interesting.

 

[kevinray]

I don't think that’s accurate though. The article says they were caught in 2006 and that the memo was sent to everyone to reiterate it.

I've seen nothing that indicates that the memo "reiterated" anything. It looks like the memo issued a new interpretation that the NFL expected everyone to live by from here on out.Let me put it this way -- if the rule was so clear-cut that the NFL was just "reiterating" what everyone already knew, why didn't they punish the Pats back in 2006?

Because, as is needed when punishment like this is handed out, there needs to be a trail to support it's validity. I'm assuming you've never taken any management training, but it's pretty standard practice to inform any new employee of the rules, warn on the first infraction, punish on the second. It eliminates terminating an employee for "an honest mistake" and eliminates needless appeals on the basis of "not knowing."

Often termination takes place after a number of documented infractions and warnings.

So just because the NFL didn't crack the whip until this year, doesn't mean the Patriots weren't breaking the rule.

I agree with what your saying here. I don't think the NFL had every enforced this rule before this past 2007. If it would have been something they'd punished someone for before, had even been monitoring well, or thought had a big impact on games then I think they would have punished the Pats in 2006. They took issue with the practice, told everyone not to do it (again the it being having camera's in the wrong place), got complaints from the jets and packers in 2006 about the Patriots not following the rule checked in 2007 and the rest we all know. Them not punishing in 2006 isn't an indication that it wasn't done before hand, but it probably is an indication that the league didn't think it was a big enough deal for impacting the game to punish them.

 

[Kiddnets]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

 

[Road Warriors]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

"Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence!""Sustained"Can we at least get something that resembles proof before we convict here?

 

[twitch]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

Did anyone die? In other words, did someone or some thing experience death? Or in other words, was there a loss of life? Because life and death are slightly bigger issues than the concern over a game who's strength and popularity are growing year by year. And who's incredible draw to its fans isnt dependent on any one player(ie, Jordan or Gretzky) nor who's most popular and prolific players are cheating themselves and the game by juicing up to the tune of millions and millions of dollars while surpassing its game's all-time most cherished records. Will professional football start losing its luster if the players are suddenly told not to fight as much? Or have we begun to see football's being juiced or helmets being corked? Is any of that happening to or factoring in to the NFL? Do any of its highest paid players get to play every 5th game, still make some of the game's biggest bank, and still get shelved more often than any other position and still draw a massive check? Nah.

Which brings me to, for how long do players in the NFL NOT play and get paid? Not very. Another beautiful element of the NFL. Guys in this league actually have to do something to earn their keep. You dont play. They dont pay. Youre not gonna hobble along for 6 or 7 years with bum ankles and bad feet and multiple surgeries and miss over half your games and still make $98 million in the NFL. 'Aint happenin'. Which is part of why we love this game, and why it's the best in the American world. And it 'aint goin' anywhere but UP. And nothing Bill Belichick or the New England Patriots have done to 'cheat' the game will leave even the slightest scar on its presence.

Im not supporting the actions. Just pointing out theyre not nearly as bad as the Romans want me to believe.

 

[Dman30]

Did anyone die? In other words, did someone or some thing experience death? Or in other words, was there a loss of life? Because life and death are slightly bigger issues than the concern over a game

OMG, we've sunk to a new low today. Now Pats apologist's defense is that if no one died because of illegal videotaping, then we should all just let it go. When you've reached the point that is your defense then all has truly been lost.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Did anyone die? In other words, did someone or some thing experience death? Or in other words, was there a loss of life? Because life and death are slightly bigger issues than the concern over a game

OMG, we've sunk to a new low today. Now Pats apologist's defense is that if no one died because of illegal videotaping, then we should all just let it go. When you've reached the point that is your defense then all has truly been lost.

 

[Kiddnets]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

"Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence!""Sustained"Can we at least get something that resembles proof before we convict here?

You are in the Court of public opinion not of law - the proof already in evidence is enough to say this is the biggest football scandal of all time - how many teams were stripped of a 1st rd draft pick? And that was just for this years infraction - the rest is coming...be patient!

 

[HellToupee]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

 

[Road Warriors]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

"Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence!""Sustained"Can we at least get something that resembles proof before we convict here?

You are in the Court of public opinion not of law - the proof already in evidence is enough to say this is the biggest football scandal of all time - how many teams were stripped of a 1st rd draft pick? And that was just for this years infraction - the rest is coming...be patient!

Unless I missed something recently, the fines and 1st rounder were for the totality of the taping, which recently was revealed has having gone back to 2000, not for the Jets game alone.And to your question, other teams have been stripped of 1st round picks ( the DEN squad rings a bell, for salary cap violations ). Ever hear about that anymore? Outside of the context of this current situation? Nope, me either. We're in the moment, and it may feel like the biggest scandal ever, but unless something else comes out, this will go away with nothing more than a whisper. Even if you don't want it to.

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

 

[fatness]

You really can't assume it’s happened. The wait and see approach has to be taken with this. Really the filming of signals would have nothing to do with using the wireless system illegally. Any team could do that and aid their QB without needing a guy filming a Coordinator. In fact patching the film in looking at it and patching into the QB's ear with a change of play would be more time consuming then just having the radio guy use binoculars and tell the QB what to do. The NFL monitors the headsets and any illegal use of them would be bad news for the team that did it. You can't just say you don't trust the NFL so any the Pats could potentially do has to be assumed to have happened. It’s just not a good argument.

Nor can you credibly make the argument that it didn't happen. Which is half my point --- we don't know yet. The other half of my point is that the speculation isn't about something wildly impossible, and the one source which discredited it (the NFL) isn't particularly credible right now. This is all being said on my part to counter your point that "This would be a real issue but there isn't anything credible to say it could have happened." Specifically, that there's one source saying it didn't happen, and that source (the NFL) has credibility problems.

 

[freelander]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

Did anyone die? In other words, did someone or some thing experience death? Or in other words, was there a loss of life? Because life and death are slightly bigger issues than the concern over a game who's strength and popularity are growing year by year. And who's incredible draw to its fans isnt dependent on any one player(ie, Jordan or Gretzky) nor who's most popular and prolific players are cheating themselves and the game by juicing up to the tune of millions and millions of dollars while surpassing its game's all-time most cherished records. Will professional football start losing its luster if the players are suddenly told not to fight as much? Or have we begun to see football's being juiced or helmets being corked? Is any of that happening to or factoring in to the NFL? Do any of its highest paid players get to play every 5th game, still make some of the game's biggest bank, and still get shelved more often than any other position and still draw a massive check? Nah.

Which brings me to, for how long do players in the NFL NOT play and get paid? Not very. Another beautiful element of the NFL. Guys in this league actually have to do something to earn their keep. You dont play. They dont pay. Youre not gonna hobble along for 6 or 7 years with bum ankles and bad feet and multiple surgeries and miss over half your games and still make $98 million in the NFL. 'Aint happenin'. Which is part of why we love this game, and why it's the best in the American world. And it 'aint goin' anywhere but UP. And nothing Bill Belichick or the New England Patriots have done to 'cheat' the game will leave even the slightest scar on its presence.

Im not supporting the actions. Just pointing out theyre not nearly as bad as the Romans want me to believe.

I agree with the comparisons to other sports, but disagree that you take for granted continued support. For all the reasons you stated, the NFL needs to make sure it stays honest to its fans...and flushing this Spygate out is necessary.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

Kiddo, I'm with you on the critiques of these guys, and that would indeed be ugly, but I think the Black Sox is almost unprecedented to the core of its ugliness. The NFL didn't have the profile at the time, but when you look at the Karras/Hourning scandal, that was pretty big too. Baseball seemed to hang in the balance after the Black Sox, I don't think however ugly this gets, and that includes intercepting radio signals or whatever ugliness we get, I don't think the integrity of the league is at stake.But it is ugly, no doubt.

 

[HellToupee]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

 

[Kiddnets]

Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal

- wait until this all plays out. You don't think knowing the plays the other teams are running in a championship game is the biggest football scandal of all time?

Kiddo, I'm with you on the critiques of these guys, and that would indeed be ugly, but I think the Black Sox is almost unprecedented to the core of its ugliness. The NFL didn't have the profile at the time, but when you look at the Karras/Hourning scandal, that was pretty big too. Baseball seemed to hang in the balance after the Black Sox, I don't think however ugly this gets, and that includes intercepting radio signals or whatever ugliness we get, I don't think the integrity of the league is at stake.But it is ugly, no doubt.

I hear you - maybe you are correct - but I do question the integrity of the league - we have a multi Super Bowl Champion cheating for possibly their entire run. The league office surely they knew this thing went deeper and Goodell tried to deep 6 it. Even destroyed evidence to cover it up. As a person who pays a lot of money for my season tix the possibility that a team cheated to beat my team and it was covered up is almost as bad as it gets IMO - I pay money to see honest football - not WWF!

 

[fatness]

Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick?

Nnce the NFL commissioner destroyed what little evidence he (says he) had, he became part of the problem. Goodell treated the problem as if it was only a matter of cheating and getting punished. But he ignored the problem of distrust. The game we see played on the field is one we want to see played fairly, under a basic set of rule for players and coaches and owners that gives each team the same opportunity to win the game. Once one team seemed to be playing with an unfair advantage, belief in that underlying set of fairness began to erode. And destroying the evidence did a huge amount to erode trust, probably more than the cheating itself. Goodell no longer looks like the sheriff bringing justice to the NFL world. He looks like a prosecutor trying to cut deals for a defendant buddy who's really on the same side he is --- the side of "let's keep this quiet and make things look all right and it'll go away." It was a stupid, shortsighted move destroying the evidence, and he deserves both criticism for doing it and ongoing suspicion that he's going to continue to try to cover things up ---- since he's already done it before.

Let's summarize.Those who share your opinion are not only aligning their perspective against the evil Belichick and Goodell, they are also saying that they reject what Rooney, Polian, Fisher and others have said about the veracity of punishment versus the infractions.I'm gonna go ahead and say that what they have to say on this matter is a lot more significant than that of the bashers around here.

Polian, Rooney, and Fisher are respected names. You're hiding behind those names to make your point. That way you can pretend that those disagreeing with you are attacking those men. None of those men saw any of the information the NFL supposedly got from the Patriots, punished the Patriots for, and destroyed, did they? What do they actually know about the extent of the cheating other than what the NFL told them?

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

 

[Dman30]

But nobody died.

 

[HellToupee]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

Honestly tell me , did you ever play football?

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

Honestly tell me , did you ever play football?

Played in college - Div III - liked MAdden better!

 

[nerangers]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

 

[kevinray]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

 

[kevinray]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

But he hasn't lost it yet. Nothing that’s come out yet has shown any impact on the games the Patriots have played. They could have filmed in correctly and gotten the same information they got through cheating. The Walsh tape still isn't out yet, and that’s the only thing so far which would damage what that teams done on the field. Say what you want about management and the NFL losing credibility but the play of the team itself has yet to be damaged.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

How so? What could Matt Walsh say that would have any meaning? I have already stated that I dont see how Videotape study turns the NFL into the WWE.

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

 

[kevinray]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

It is a leap, a big one. Any team reviewing any film during the game or at half time would be in deep. You can't assume that they reviewed the film when there’s been no evidence of it and the investigation into whether they did came up negative. Big jump from violating the rule on pg 105 and reviewing camera footage during the game. Any team could be guilty of that based on the evidence we have against the Patriots. All teams are allowed to film coordinators and if any of them wanted to review it during the game it wouldn't be that hard, but there’s no evidence to accuse any of doing it so it shouldn't be assumed that one of them did.

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

It is a leap, a big one. Any team reviewing any film during the game or at half time would be in deep. You can't assume that they reviewed the film when there’s been no evidence of it and the investigation into whether they did came up negative. Big jump from violating rule 105 and reviewing camera footage during the game.

Tough to see the evidence when it has been prematurely destroyed - however there is more out there. If Walsh taped a walk through how are you going to argue that wasn't used in the game? Its going from a jump to a foregone conclusion - again IMO.

 

[twitch]

But nobody died.

..not that there would be anything wrong with that. that's about all youre getting out of me. nice playoff win, btw.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

How so? What could Matt Walsh say that would have any meaning? I have already stated that I dont see how Videotape study turns the NFL into the WWE.

You're breaking down different arguments.I've agreed with you above actually, in almost any of the worst case scenarios of all the many things NE has been accused of, I don't think its black sox or WWE level.

However, if NE lets say taped the Rams walkthrough and otherwise knew what was coming, I don't see how you could remotely call them the "better team". They would have exploited and excuted their espinoage to the fullest, and while you may disagree with the assertion, and we could forever debate the merits or results of their duplicity, you would be going against the conventional and popular wisdom at that point if you think they had the better team.

 

[kevinray]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

It is a leap, a big one. Any team reviewing any film during the game or at half time would be in deep. You can't assume that they reviewed the film when there’s been no evidence of it and the investigation into whether they did came up negative. Big jump from violating rule 105 and reviewing camera footage during the game.

Tough to see the evidence when it has been prematurely destroyed - however there is more out there. If Walsh taped a walk through how are you going to argue that wasn't used in the game? Its going from a jump to a foregone conclusion - again IMO.

Even if the tapes weren't destroyed it wouldn't show whether they were reviewed during the game or not. The Walsh tape is different and really is a completely different type of crime from the original violation. I'm waiting to see how that progresses. Its still to far to soon to come to your conclusion that the Patriots knew the other teams plays.

 

[twitch]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

Which is why all of this will never be settled with many of you. And I wont hate you for it. You can all believe what you want to believe. But allow me to correlate. Imagine your mom, someone who's never done drugs, caught you smoking some pot. "Oh, my God", Seymour", she would cry. She busted you "doing drugs". Boy, would her mind start to spin. And if she werent your mom, and she didnt love you, and of course understanding she knows nothing about illegal drug use, wouldnt she therefore have every reason otherwise to believe that maybe youre also smokin' crack?? Or maybe droppin' a dose? Or pushin' the needle?? Why wouldnt she? She caught you red handed? You were busted flat red handed, guilty as sin. You were a druggie in your mom's eyes. And even though she doesnt have any real knowledge of these things, she knows you have a 'history'. Would that be too much of a leap?? Would he be wrong to expect that you sneak off to the bathroom before Thanksgiving dinner to kiss the glass? Yeah, kindof. She'd just be someone who really doesnt know much about what you were doing drawing unnecessary conclusions without having much in the way of facts. But who could blame her? She thought she understood you just fine. But she really does care.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Can we atleast agree to hammer the commissioner of the NFL a little less, and keep that bulls eye focused more squarely on Belichick?

Nnce the NFL commissioner destroyed what little evidence he (says he) had, he became part of the problem. Goodell treated the problem as if it was only a matter of cheating and getting punished. But he ignored the problem of distrust. The game we see played on the field is one we want to see played fairly, under a basic set of rule for players and coaches and owners that gives each team the same opportunity to win the game. Once one team seemed to be playing with an unfair advantage, belief in that underlying set of fairness began to erode. And destroying the evidence did a huge amount to erode trust, probably more than the cheating itself. Goodell no longer looks like the sheriff bringing justice to the NFL world. He looks like a prosecutor trying to cut deals for a defendant buddy who's really on the same side he is --- the side of "let's keep this quiet and make things look all right and it'll go away." It was a stupid, shortsighted move destroying the evidence, and he deserves both criticism for doing it and ongoing suspicion that he's going to continue to try to cover things up ---- since he's already done it before.

Let's summarize.Those who share your opinion are not only aligning their perspective against the evil Belichick and Goodell, they are also saying that they reject what Rooney, Polian, Fisher and others have said about the veracity of punishment versus the infractions.I'm gonna go ahead and say that what they have to say on this matter is a lot more significant than that of the bashers around here.

Polian, Rooney, and Fisher are respected names. You're hiding behind those names to make your point. That way you can pretend that those disagreeing with you are attacking those men. None of those men saw any of the information the NFL supposedly got from the Patriots, punished the Patriots for, and destroyed, did they? What do they actually know about the extent of the cheating other than what the NFL told them?

So what recourse do you propose, if the judgement of these "respected names" is not adequate to restore eroded confidence?A Specter-led Mitchell report? A unilateral imposition of incremental fines and penalties?

 

[Dman30]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

Which is why all of this will never be settled with many of you. And I wont hate you for it. You can all believe what you want to believe. But allow me to correlate. Imagine your mom, someone who's never done drugs, caught you smoking some pot. "Oh, my God", Seymour", she would cry. She busted you "doing drugs". Boy, would her mind start to spin. And if she werent your mom, and she didnt love you, and of course understanding she knows nothing about illegal drug use, wouldnt she therefore have every reason otherwise to believe that maybe youre also smokin' crack?? Or maybe droppin' a dose? Or pushin' the needle?? Why wouldnt she? She caught you red handed? You were busted flat red handed, guilty as sin. You were a druggie in your mom's eyes. And even though she doesnt have any real knowledge of these things, she knows you have a 'history'. Would that be too much of a leap?? Would he be wrong to expect that you sneak off to the bathroom before Thanksgiving dinner to kiss the glass? Yeah, kindof. She'd just be someone who really doesnt know much about what you were doing drawing unnecessary conclusions without having much in the way of facts. But who could blame her? She thought she understood you just fine. But she really does care. :(

Please stop posting. You're becoming delusional.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.

:(

PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

How so? What could Matt Walsh say that would have any meaning? I have already stated that I dont see how Videotape study turns the NFL into the WWE.

You're breaking down different arguments.I've agreed with you above actually, in almost any of the worst case scenarios of all the many things NE has been accused of, I don't think its black sox or WWE level.

However, if NE lets say taped the Rams walkthrough and otherwise knew what was coming, I don't see how you could remotely call them the "better team". They would have exploited and excuted their espinoage to the fullest, and while you may disagree with the assertion, and we could forever debate the merits or results of their duplicity, you would be going against the conventional and popular wisdom at that point if you think they had the better team.

I have seen absolutely NO evidence that the Patriots or any other team taped a walkthrough.However, I am on record as saying that the review of a walkthrough is inconsequential. I dont see how people are equating a walkthrough to knowing a teams plays. There are typically 80 offensive snaps in a game. A team might walk through 10-15 plays in a walkthrough. Some plays used in a walkthrough never make it to a game because of circumstance.

The Rams said that they went through their Red Zone offense during the walkthrough. The Rams entered the Red Zone once in that game and scored a TD. If the walkthrough concentrated solely on their Red Zone offense, how could the review of that walkthrough actually affected the game?

I was at that game. The Patriots were the best team that day. There is no question about that.

 

[Kiddnets]

- that means multiple seasons and Super Bowls are in dispute - ugly - this is equivalent to the Black Sox scandal -

I hate the Patriots just as much as the next guy but this is crazy talk

again as I stated previously - a dynasty team that is caught cheating. Knowing the plays of opposing teams in championship games? You could be looking at multiple tainted Super Bowls....football is not WWF - this is huge right now...I am predicting its going to get worse. There's blood in the water and too many people the Pats are not on good terms know things - more info is going to keep coming out.

I really think you're just blinded in your hatred of NE. The only thing that could taint NE is if there is audio of BB instructing a lackey to do his illegal filming

I really hope this just dies out , I 100% confident the patsies aren't the only team breaking the rules trying to gain an advantage. Finding others will diminish the hit the Patriots are taking right now

I am completely up front about my hatred of Bellichick (not the Pats) - finding other teams would make it worse - I pay to see an honest game. We're not talking about an edge in the game like steroids which is bad but knowing what plays are going to be run. That makes it a fixed game in my opinion.Try winning a game ion MAdden when the other team knows what you are going to run! Not much fun.

I feel like you're late to the conversation but that doesn't excuse you from understanding the Spygate situation. I don't know if you’re confused about the videotaping of a coach is legal part, the film wasn't reviewed until after the game part, the Patriots were punished for filming out of position part, or all of them. You need to do some more reading on the subjects that are being debated in this thread and if you disagree with anything I've said point out which and I'll direct you something that will show you your statements above are wrong.

I understand the Spygate situation fine - I just don't believe that the info was not used during the game. Don't think that is a leap with what we have so far IMO

Which is why all of this will never be settled with many of you. And I wont hate you for it. You can all believe what you want to believe. But allow me to correlate. Imagine your mom, someone who's never done drugs, caught you smoking some pot. "Oh, my God", Seymour", she would cry. She busted you "doing drugs". Boy, would her mind start to spin. And if she werent your mom, and she didnt love you, and of course understanding she knows nothing about illegal drug use, wouldnt she therefore have every reason otherwise to believe that maybe youre also smokin' crack?? Or maybe droppin' a dose? Or pushin' the needle?? Why wouldnt she? She caught you red handed? You were busted flat red handed, guilty as sin. You were a druggie in your mom's eyes. And even though she doesnt have any real knowledge of these things, she knows you have a 'history'. Would that be too much of a leap?? Would he be wrong to expect that you sneak off to the bathroom before Thanksgiving dinner to kiss the glass? Yeah, kindof. She'd just be someone who really doesnt know much about what you were doing drawing unnecessary conclusions without having much in the way of facts. But who could blame her? She thought she understood you just fine. But she really does care.

Unfortunately for your example....mom was right on the money! where there's this much smoke there is fire....

 

[Kiddnets]

Personally I could care less if other teams were cheating...it doesn't lessen what the Patriots did. If your child was caught cheating in school, does it lessen the fact if half the class did it? If your child cheated to get better grades so he can go to a better college, do you overlook it since it gives him an academic competitive advantage over everyone else? I guess I am just getting tired of all of the excuses people are making with regards to Bill Belichick.

I view it this way. Belichick was in charge, and he has already admitted to video taping based on his interpretation of the rules. I don't believe that he really didnt' understand the rules in the way they were written. He interpreted them the way he wanted to interpret them (easier to say sorry than ask permission theory). I do think that anything done outside of the rules can give a team a competitive advantage, and Belichick would work any angle to win. It is still cheating though.

I do stand by the fact that the Players still had to execute in all these games. I stand by the Patriots Team. I don't stand by Belichick and his actions since 2000. There is nothing to prove here...he already admitted to his video practices. The real question is how much of a competitive advantage, if any, was gained. It is strange that Belichick seemed to turn his career around once coming to New England...same time he starting video taping other teams "for further review."

I hope the NFL does clean up their house and get to the bottom of everything. Too much speculation, not enough physical evidence. Yes, I know, the evidence was destroyed! lol I know the owners seem satisfied with the explanation and handling of the whole situation based on comments coming out of the Combines...but do you really expect them to say any different? The NFL owners is a fraternity...they are not going to sell out one of their own in Kraft.

Many want to point at this season as a reason for why Belichick didn't need to cheat. Doesn't overlook the fact that he did in the past.



PS Patriot fans, please do not take away my Patriot Nation club card!

I've always enjoyed your posts in the past, especially your offseason information. However, spare me the crying about "Spygate". If you are going to play the pity card and validate those that choose to continue to harp on a minor rules violation by continuously call it "cheating", please just dont post.There is no hit to the "integrity of the game" for me. This situation will not change the way I watch the NFL one single iota. Those comparing the NFL to WWE are just so far over their heads that they might as well just stop watching football now.

The Patriots won each of their Super Bowls because they were the better team on that day. They lost this past Super Bowl because the Giants were a better team on that day. I have watched EVERY Super Bowl that the Patriots have been in and actually attended 2 of them, the only Super Bowl where it looked like one team had the other teams plays was against the Bears. And that was only because the Bears were that much better than the Pats.

You may soon be losing your right to say that.

How so? What could Matt Walsh say that would have any meaning? I have already stated that I dont see how Videotape study turns the NFL into the WWE.

You're breaking down different arguments.I've agreed with you above actually, in almost any of the worst case scenarios of all the many things NE has been accused of, I don't think its black sox or WWE level.

However, if NE lets say taped the Rams walkthrough and otherwise knew what was coming, I don't see how you could remotely call them the "better team". They would have exploited and excuted their espinoage to the fullest, and while you may disagree with the assertion, and we could forever debate the merits or results of their duplicity, you would be going against the conventional and popular wisdom at that point if you think they had the better team.

I have seen absolutely NO evidence that the Patriots or any other team taped a walkthrough.However, I am on record as saying that the review of a walkthrough is inconsequential. I dont see how people are equating a walkthrough to knowing a teams plays. There are typically 80 offensive snaps in a game. A team might walk through 10-15 plays in a walkthrough. Some plays used in a walkthrough never make it to a game because of circumstance.

The Rams said that they went through their Red Zone offense during the walkthrough. The Rams entered the Red Zone once in that game and scored a TD. If the walkthrough concentrated solely on their Red Zone offense, how could the review of that walkthrough actually affected the game?

I was at that game. The Patriots were the best team that day. There is no question about that.

As someone who played - our walkthroughs of 15 plays or so were our favorite plays that we ran many times all game....