How does the RB ‘pay scale’ problem get solved? (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyU]

I think punters should go on strike.

Don't #### with my draft board man!

One could argue kickers are just as important as RBs. Harder to find a competent one, whereas I’ve seen plenty of backup RBs do a good job.

 

[Chaka]

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

We know how this would end. It would look like baseball with a few times outspending everyone else by 3-10x multiples. Man, that sure would be fun.

So it's okay because parity?

That argument is 100% contradictory to the notion of "RBs are just getting what the market dictates."

Pick a lane.

I haven’t said “RBs are just getting what the market dictates.” So no, I don’t have to pick from one of your lanes.

Are you sure you didn't delete a post?

I don’t delete posts

My bad then. Iust have confused you for Mallory.

 

[Chaka]

I think punters should go on strike.

Don't #### with my draft board man!

One could argue kickers are just as important as RBs. Harder to find a competent one, whereas I’ve seen plenty of backup RBs do a good job.

Yeah, I detailed that s thread. My points have been far more about the problems with the market for players as a whole, not position specific.

That's because I believe the only way to fix the "RB issue" is to fix an inherently broken system.

I do believe in a true open market top RBs would continue to be paid far more than top Ks.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And, as I said to someone else above if you were talented enough to play for them I think you would not have the same opinion.

I'm 100% certain I'd love to play as a player in the league under the current system.

 

[Chaka]

And, as I said to someone else above if you were talented enough to play for them I think you would not have the same opinion.

I'm 100% certain I'd love to play as a player in the league under the current system.

You do you, brother.

Who am I to argue?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

We know how this would end. It would look like baseball with a few times outspending everyone else by 3-10x multiples. Man, that sure would be fun.

So it's okay because parity?

That argument is 100% contradictory to the notion of "RBs are just getting what the market dictates."

Pick a lane.

I haven’t said “RBs are just getting what the market dictates.” So no, I don’t have to pick from one of your lanes.

Are you sure you didn't delete a post?

I don’t delete posts

My bad then. Iust have confused you for Mallory.

If I had a dollar for everytime….

 

[BassNBrew]

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

XFL
CFL
Arena League

Dalvin Cook is free to send his resume to any of them.

 

[Chaka]

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

XFL
CFL
Arena League

Dalvin Cook is free to send his resume to any of them.

Yeah, totally. Great point BnB.

Google, Microsoft, Apple, Jimbo's Computer Shack. 100%

 

[-OZ-]

a a

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

We know how this would end. It would look like baseball with a few times outspending everyone else by 3-10x multiples. Man, that sure would be fun.

But if there is still a salary cap, that wouldn't happen, right?

Negotiating the salary cap against 31 other owners and labor looks a lot different than negotiating all owners vs all players.

No doubt. Completely agree with your position that the NFL isn’t a free market.

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

The biggest difference is whether you consider the NFL to be the employer or the team. For whatever reason, sports leagues are legally able to fit in the middle ground.
Players can go play another sport or for another league

Now there's the problem.

We wouldn't tolerate this in any other industry. Why do we accept if for the NFL?

Is the MLB, NBA, NHL, WNBA, etc any better?

Some of us are okay with the league being the entity. If you don’t want to play in the NFL, don’t. Go coach high school or get started coaching college ball. Go get another job.
We’d also be happy getting like 2% of the RB franchise tag.

If you were good enough to warrant 2% of the franchise tag I doubt you would have the same opinion.

And players are aware of the "Play here or nowhere" nature of the job, that's why they play. That isn't a unique take. And it is deeply flawed

That take simply wouldn't be accepted in, perhaps*, any other industry. Neither would a draft.

Rhetorical question because we all know the answer is the public finds the NFL so entertaining they are willing to sacrifice their "values" so long as they get competitive football.

Why are we so desperate to prevent Mike Brown and Mark Davis having to openly compete with Jerry Jones and the Walton's? And at the same time we don't care if Josh Jacobs has to compete with Patrick Mahomes for limited salary cap dollars?

Why are we good with this?

You’re taking this far too personally or
Playing in the NFL is a job. It’s why players get a pension for their time in the league, not from each team. It’s why the NFLPA represents the players and the CBA is with the league. Otherwise you’d have 32 CBAs.

 

[-OZ-]

If you were an graduating engineer and Microsoft offered you a contract, you would still likely try to market your services you say Google to see if they make a better offer. And Apple etc. No one sends their resume to only one company.

But what if Microsoft said "You can't do that because we have an agreement with Google that says you can't. Apple too. All the Big Boys actually, you can't work for any of them but us.

But you can go market your services to Jimbo's Computer Barn in Northwest Upper Butt Crack so...fair, right?"

You think that would fly in America?

In this scenario, Microsoft is the NFL. They are one company with 32 equal divisions all working very closely together.

Players are welcome to play professional football with other companies and apply to the Canadian Football League, the XFL or anywhere else they like.

Joe Namath signed with that inferior league the AFL

Jim Kelly & Steve Young signed with the USFL. Warren Moon played in Canada. That option doesn't exist anywhere in the world ATM.

But when the Saudi's, and their unlimited capital, come knocking on Patrick Mahomes door, or Josh Allen's, or Caleb Williams, or the next generation is f talent. The NFL owners will realize how precarious their position truly is.

You might want to bookmark this one @-OZ- so we can talk about it in 10-20 years.

Why?
If another group wants to create a league and compete, have at it.

 

[fightingillini]

I am in the camp that it is just a function of supply and demand, along with the diminishing importance of the position. Look at the last few Super Bowl winners. They didn't pay their leading rusher more than 2.5M for the year. They get their entire rushing output for about 5M total. You win Super Bowls with elite QBs. Hard to win consistently in the NFL if your OL and DL are subpar. Elite WRs have a huge impact, along with shutdown cornerbacks. These positions command high salaries, because these positions are what help you compete for Super Bowls and again....supply and demand. Unfortunately, you can play 2-3 RBs and pay them $1-2M each and cobble up enough production to win. Why pay Jonathan Taylor 10M a season for 3 years? Yes, he's a great RB, but that's 20M or so less money you have to pay more important positions. I don't see that changing in the near future. The NFL is a pass first league now. It's such a different game than when I grew up watching the Bears and Walter Payton, or watching Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith.

I wouldn't change anything.

 

[travdogg]

I am in the camp that it is just a function of supply and demand, along with the diminishing importance of the position. Look at the last few Super Bowl winners. They didn't pay their leading rusher more than 2.5M for the year. They get their entire rushing output for about 5M total. You win Super Bowls with elite QBs. Hard to win consistently in the NFL if your OL and DL are subpar. Elite WRs have a huge impact, along with shutdown cornerbacks. These positions command high salaries, because these positions are what help you compete for Super Bowls and again....supply and demand. Unfortunately, you can play 2-3 RBs and pay them $1-2M each and cobble up enough production to win. Why pay Jonathan Taylor 10M a season for 3 years? Yes, he's a great RB, but that's 20M or so less money you have to pay more important positions. I don't see that changing in the near future. The NFL is a pass first league now. It's such a different game than when I grew up watching the Bears and Walter Payton, or watching Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith.

I wouldn't change anything.

To be fair, the teams in the Championship Games were paying among the league leaders in RB pay. I don't think KC beat the Bengals because of Joe Mixon's contract. I'm very much on the side of RBs aren't underpaid, but there are still difference making RBs, just not at the Barry, Walter, Emmitt level. SF isn't in the NFC title game last year without CMC, nor are the 2019 Titans without Henry. Its more normal to win with elite QB/passing, but I don't think its the only way.

I'd make an argument that other than QB, every position is a little overpaid, or at least overvalued. OL/DL/CB/WR none of those individual players effect the game anywhere close to what a QB does. They are all closer to RBs than they are to QBs in my opinion.

I wonder if the future of the NFL isn't more Lamar Jackson/Justin Fields types, where the leading rushers are the QBs. A team that runs something like an old run n shoot offense but with that type of QB would be an interesting experiment. Obviously, OL would take on an even huger priority for that style, and perhaps backup QB, but against smaller defenses it would be interesting. As an aside, I wonder how Randall Cunningham would have fared in 2023 rules/systems.

 

[-OZ-]

. It's such a different game than when I grew up watching the Bears and Walter Payton, or watching Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith.

I wouldn't change anything.

I get that it’s only one player, but Barry helps make the case that even the GOAT (one of them anyway) wasn’t able to make a big enough impact to win more than one playoff game in his career. And be didn’t even get 100 yards total in that win. (Yes, the defense prioritized stopping him)

 

[nysfl2]

I think punters should go on strike.

Don't #### with my draft board man!

One could argue kickers are just as important as RBs. Harder to find a competent one, whereas I’ve seen plenty of backup RBs do a good job.

I'd bet a slightly above average kicker makes more in career earnings than most decent rbs

 

[-OZ-]

I think punters should go on strike.

Don't #### with my draft board man!

One could argue kickers are just as important as RBs. Harder to find a competent one, whereas I’ve seen plenty of backup RBs do a good job.

I'd bet a slightly above average kicker makes more in career earnings than most decent rbs

Depending how you define “decent”, they’re remarkably close if the RB has longevity.

I think we’d probably agree that the 39yo Matt Prater represents a long term career of being above average - 11 years, two pro bowls, never an all pro. He’s earned $37 million over his career.

I’m not sure what you consider a decent RB but for the sake of argument let’s say Mark Ingram. He earned $36.76 million, roughly $250k less - and that’s with a 12 year career after being drafted in the first round.

 

[IHEARTFF]

The NFL, fantasy, and the fans have long glorified RBs, thus making it seem a promising childhood dream to play RB in the NFL for many kids. It will take this era of de-glorification as it were to turn off the position to many young athletes.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

I think punters should go on strike.

Don't #### with my draft board man!

One could argue kickers are just as important as RBs. Harder to find a competent one, whereas I’ve seen plenty of backup RBs do a good job.

I'd bet a slightly above average kicker makes more in career earnings than most decent rbs

A good kicker contributes more to team wins

 

[Chaka]

Boy that Wayne Gallman sure made people forget about Saquon, didn't he?

 

[Snotbubbles]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

Some problems I see with this.

1. American Football isn't really popular around the World.

2. The rosters for football teams are large, so signing one big name guy isn't going to move the needle for a league competing with the NFL.

3. Football careers are short.

Soccer, Basketball, Ice Hockey. Those are sports that will get infiltrated before football.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I mentioned above that this is a cap problem not a market problem.

Can you explain? Every year the cap goes up, but the RBs are still getting the smallest piece of the pie.

Fruit of the poisoned tree.

There is no market from the beginning. Prospective NFL players are forbidden from marketing their services to all their prospective employers. They can either play for the team that drafts them or not at all. That's about as anti-market as it gets.

From there everything from rookie wage scales, fifth year team options, franchise tags, salary caps etc. everything exacerbates the issue.

We can talk about labor negotiations but the players aren't negotiating against against 32 separate businesses as the league likes to pretend, they are negotiating against a single monolithic entity against which they have no chance. That entity, the NFL, is anti-market, anti-capitalist and, frankly anti-American.

I am not suggesting we give the players more power, I am saying we remove the artificial barriers that allow the NFL to act as one unit in certain circumstances while still being treated as 32 separate businesses.

Do that and you actually create a true market. Why would it be so problematic to let the Bengals compete against the Cowboys for the services of the labor force? We fight tooth-and-nail to be sought after by multiple prospective employers in every other industry. But not the NFL. Why are we okay with that?

What they have now is a sham that we are okay with so long as we don't have to work for them.

The problem isn't that the NFL owners are some super power that is impossible to negotiate against, it's that the NFLPA is a weak entity that has no backbone. They are so concerned with getting the scraps that fall from the table that they fail to see the bigger picture. They should take a page out of the MLBPA, if it requires a year without football or two years without football, the NFLPA should go on strike for the benefit of future members. There are so many examples of baseball players who have risked their careers and their earning potential for the benefit of those that follow them. Do you think any player would do what Curt Flood did and destroy their career for the benefit of the other players?

 

[humpback]

Ekeler's solution seems to be to go out and earn it

 

[The Frankman]

Brian Kollman gives a decent option to RBs being underpaid in his video, The Running Back Problem

 

[wgoldsph]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

 

[Grahamburn]

Michael Irvin career earnings - $17.625M

Troy Aikman career earnings - $55.5M

Emmitt Smith career earnings - $61M

The NFL is just different now. It’s that simple and nothing needs to change to compensate RBs differently. The world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[msudaisy26]

My only problem with running back pay is that it is going backwards. CMC, Cook, Kamara, Henry etc signed deals for 13 to 16 AAV and now the top backs are having trouble getting 12 a year in a league that is basically printing money, all other positions are seeing increases in pay and the cap is going up.

 

[Chaka]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Michael Irvin career earnings - $17.625M

Troy Aikman career earnings - $55.5M

Emmitt Smith career earnings - $61M

The NFL is just different now. It’s that simple and nothing needs to change to compensate RBs differently. The world needs ditch diggers too.

I played RB,, CB, LB and FS. Running back is the least skilled position by far.

 

[Chaka]

Michael Irvin career earnings - $17.625M

Troy Aikman career earnings - $55.5M

Emmitt Smith career earnings - $61M

The NFL is just different now. It’s that simple and nothing needs to change to compensate RBs differently. The world needs ditch diggers too.

I played RB,, CB, LB and FS. Running back is the least skilled position by far.

Yeah, but did you ever score four touchdowns in one game?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Michael Irvin career earnings - $17.625M

Troy Aikman career earnings - $55.5M

Emmitt Smith career earnings - $61M

The NFL is just different now. It’s that simple and nothing needs to change to compensate RBs differently. The world needs ditch diggers too.

I played RB,, CB, LB and FS. Running back is the least skilled position by far.

Yeah, but did you ever score four touchdowns in one game?

Twice.

 

[Chaka]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

Nope, not for.the players , at least initially but the fans lose big time.

There aren't 32 NFL competent QBs in the world right now. What happens when they need 50 or 60? Maybe we start doing something other than watching football.

It could also make the fantasy game more convoluted and less enjoyable.

Opens up the door for more gambling exploitation too.

 

[dkp993]

Haven’t read all 3 pages so apologies if it’s been brought up already. But my opinion the only way this gets fixed is through the CBA. The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now. The longevity of the position is so short that capping the only real time teams are willing to pay for them is an artificial governor to the position and kills any leverage RB’s have. Until that happens they (RB’s) are incredibly limited on options.

 

[massraider]

The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now

Massive can of worms.

Eliminate all tags. That is as good as they can expect. It will be a huge help actually

 

[Grahamburn]

Haven’t read all 3 pages so apologies if it’s been brought up already. But my opinion the only way this gets fixed is through the CBA. The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now. The longevity of the position is so short that capping the only real time teams are willing to pay for them is an artificial governor to the position and kills any leverage RB’s have. Until that happens they (RB’s) are incredibly limited on options.

If you arbitrarily attach escalators or other parameters specific to RBs only they’d just fall even farther in drafts. They’d potentially make less money.

The best thing they can do is try to get drafted as early as possible.

 

[msudaisy26]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

 

[Grahamburn]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

That’s the whole point. They aren’t valued because their production no longer translates to wins. And/Or, it’s seemingly easily replaced by cheaper options. Ekeler being upset is ironic to me. He’s the poster boy. Undrafted free agent who got a shot because the higher drafted player Melvin Gordon made more or wanted more money and became expendable.

Same as the real world. If I can get someone to do your job cheaper and just as well then I will.

 

[msudaisy26]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

That’s the whole point. They aren’t valued because their production no longer translates to wins. And/Or, it’s seemingly easily replaced by cheaper options. Ekeler being upset is ironic to me. He’s the poster boy. Undrafted free agent who got a shot because the higher drafted player Melvin Gordon made more or wanted more money and became expendable.

Same as the real world. If I can get someone to do your job cheaper and just as well then I will.

Yes and no. Eckler is the exception, not the rule. The Lions are still trying Barry Sanders. The Chargers replaced Brees with a cheaper Rivers, but then kept paying Rivers. The Packers and Steelers keep replacing receivers with cheaper younger receivers, why isn't the rest of the league.

If you are always trying to replace your workers with cheaper options while they are still in their prime working years then people won't work for you or won't stay long. There is a fine line between loyalty and over paying. Right now I believe the NFL is on the wrong side of the line.

If it was so easy to replace these guys then they wouldn't franchise tag them. Just let them walk.

 

[JohnnyU]

Thinking about going 0 RB strategy in PPR leagues. The RB position is too volatile.

 

[Grahamburn]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

That’s the whole point. They aren’t valued because their production no longer translates to wins. And/Or, it’s seemingly easily replaced by cheaper options. Ekeler being upset is ironic to me. He’s the poster boy. Undrafted free agent who got a shot because the higher drafted player Melvin Gordon made more or wanted more money and became expendable.

Same as the real world. If I can get someone to do your job cheaper and just as well then I will.

Yes and no. Eckler is the exception, not the rule. The Lions are still trying Barry Sanders. The Chargers replaced Brees with a cheaper Rivers, but then kept paying Rivers. The Packers and Steelers keep replacing receivers with cheaper younger receivers, why isn't the rest of the league.

If you are always trying to replace your workers with cheaper options while they are still in their prime working years then people won't work for you or won't stay long. There is a fine line between loyalty and over paying. Right now I believe the NFL is on the wrong side of the line.

If it was so easy to replace these guys then they wouldn't franchise tag them. Just let them walk.

They franchise tag them so they can squeeze out the 1-2 more years of positive production they have before they fall off a cliff.

Their careers are short. It’s just the nature of the position. They’re upset because the league has adjusted to their true value.

20-30 years ago it was skewed in their favor. The game has changed.

 

[msudaisy26]

We all foolishly believe that the NFL is an unassailable institution. Any competing league has been doomed to fail simply because they don't have the resources to compete for the best work force.

The NFL oligarchs foolishly believes this too. Because, thus far any competition for services of the best potential employees has come from within America. Every one who has tried has failed. Who could possibly compete with them, right?

Well, when the Saudi's come a'calling, the NFL oligarchs will see where they were wrong but, by that point it will be too late.

I hope they enjoy watching the UAE Oil Barons competing with the Doha Djinn for the OPEC Cup.

I hadn't considered the possibility for the NFL to go pro golf. The idea of the key players from both NY teams leaving the country because the owners wouldn't spring for a field of real grass tickles me.

To be fair that is a highly unlikely possibility for a ton of reasons. It's a very long time horizon threat to the point of almost being a post apocalyptic scenario.

As @Snotbubbles pointed out above there are a lot of obstacles. One big one he missed is good luck convincing a bunch of 20 something guys with egos the size of a house, and have never left Alabama, let alone America, to move their lives across the world and then tell them they can't have a beer or live with their girlfriend.

It would be a decades long effort to truly make something like that happen.

Then again they could just buy the XFL & USFL throw a couple $B into it and make a true competitor in America.

With all due respect, Is this an issue?

Everyone makes hundred of thousands to millions of dollars.

What’s “broken”, exactly? Are people being forced into something? I don’t understand your stance at all.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

That’s the whole point. They aren’t valued because their production no longer translates to wins. And/Or, it’s seemingly easily replaced by cheaper options. Ekeler being upset is ironic to me. He’s the poster boy. Undrafted free agent who got a shot because the higher drafted player Melvin Gordon made more or wanted more money and became expendable.

Same as the real world. If I can get someone to do your job cheaper and just as well then I will.

Yes and no. Eckler is the exception, not the rule. The Lions are still trying Barry Sanders. The Chargers replaced Brees with a cheaper Rivers, but then kept paying Rivers. The Packers and Steelers keep replacing receivers with cheaper younger receivers, why isn't the rest of the league.

If you are always trying to replace your workers with cheaper options while they are still in their prime working years then people won't work for you or won't stay long. There is a fine line between loyalty and over paying. Right now I believe the NFL is on the wrong side of the line.

If it was so easy to replace these guys then they wouldn't franchise tag them. Just let them walk.

They franchise tag them so they can squeeze out the 1-2 more years of positive production they have before they fall off a cliff.

Their careers are short. It’s just the nature of the position. They’re upset because the league has adjusted to their true value.

20-30 years ago it was skewed in their favor. The game has changed.

They franchise them because they aren't easily replaceable and it is a value. I am not talking about 20 or 30 years ago. I am talking three, running backs make less now than three years ago, but every other position is making more. Something isn't right.

 

[Joe Bryant]

They franchise them because they aren't easily replaceable and it is a value. I am not talking about 20 or 30 years ago. I am talking three, running backs make less now than three years ago, but every other position is making more. Something isn't right.

I think it's less about something not being "right" and more about GMs changing opinions on what positions are more valuable. In a salary cap system, it's a zero sum game. I have no problem if a GM feels they'd rather put more money in another area of the team.

 

[msudaisy26]

They franchise them because they aren't easily replaceable and it is a value. I am not talking about 20 or 30 years ago. I am talking three, running backs make less now than three years ago, but every other position is making more. Something isn't right.

I think it's less about something not being "right" and more about GMs changing opinions on what positions are more valuable. In a salary cap system, it's a zero sum game. I have no problem if a GM feels they'd rather put more money in another area of the team.

Completely agree, but this is a league wide problem and not all the team agree about how to build a team and where to spend money.

6 franchise tags were used this year. Half were on rbs the other 3 got long term deals done. It doesn't seem right to me that everyone salary is going up and rb is going down. If the position wasn't important or easily replaced then teams wouldn't waste the tag on the rbs or draft them in the first round, but they do.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

To the OP's question, I propose these changes:
1.) No rookie contracts longer than 3 years. In theory, this would allow RBs to hit the market while still in their "prime."

2.) Limit the amount of the salary cap that can be paid to an individual player per season to 15% per season?

3.) No Franchise tags

Thoughts?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Completely agree, but this is a league wide problem and not all the team agree about how to build a team and where to spend money.

Agreed. I think where we differ is I just simply don't see it as a "problem". I see it as some GMs choosing to spend money in different places.

 

[dkp993]

Haven’t read all 3 pages so apologies if it’s been brought up already. But my opinion the only way this gets fixed is through the CBA. The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now. The longevity of the position is so short that capping the only real time teams are willing to pay for them is an artificial governor to the position and kills any leverage RB’s have. Until that happens they (RB’s) are incredibly limited on options.

If you arbitrarily attach escalators or other parameters specific to RBs only they’d just fall even farther in drafts. They’d potentially make less money.

The best thing they can do is try to get drafted as early as possible.

But at least that’s the marketplace working as it should. I would also bet elite talents like Bijan still go early at at least finally get paid.

 

[Mitchie]

A good part of the problem is the career arc of running backs, really they hit the beginning of their prime in college but have to play three years of college b/f entering the NFL, then tied to a 4 year rookie contract and then can be franchised, so never really have the ability to get a strong 2nd contract like most other positions can. So yes their value has dropped and the NFL has caught on that a big 2nd contract doesn't make sense, but the way current system is set up really treats them poorly relative to other positions.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I agree that GMs still consider the position important enough to draft in the first round plus spend franchise tags on. But that's their limit, they don't want to give long term extensions to RBs like they do other positions. Fair or not that's just the way it works, at least for now.

 

[Chaka]

Is everyone just ignoring the Chubba Hubbard era in Carolina?

Haven’t read all 3 pages so apologies if it’s been brought up already. But my opinion the only way this gets fixed is through the CBA. The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now. The longevity of the position is so short that capping the only real time teams are willing to pay for them is an artificial governor to the position and kills any leverage RB’s have. Until that happens they (RB’s) are incredibly limited on options.

If you arbitrarily attach escalators or other parameters specific to RBs only they’d just fall even farther in drafts. They’d potentially make less money.

The best thing they can do is try to get drafted as early as possible.

But at least that’s the marketplace working as it should. I would also bet elite talents like Bijan still go early at at least finally get paid.

But it's not really a marketplace. You can enter most markets when you are 18 years old and aren't forced to work for a specific employer.

Really they are entering an asset redistribution system where they are the asset but have no control over their market value. Everything that happens after that, including second contracts are fruit of the poisoned tree.

 

[dkp993]

Is everyone just ignoring the Chubba Hubbard era in Carolina?

Haven’t read all 3 pages so apologies if it’s been brought up already. But my opinion the only way this gets fixed is through the CBA. The rookie scale for running backs needs to be adjusted as that first few years are their peak earning potential as it stands now. The longevity of the position is so short that capping the only real time teams are willing to pay for them is an artificial governor to the position and kills any leverage RB’s have. Until that happens they (RB’s) are incredibly limited on options.

If you arbitrarily attach escalators or other parameters specific to RBs only they’d just fall even farther in drafts. They’d potentially make less money.

The best thing they can do is try to get drafted as early as possible.

But at least that’s the marketplace working as it should. I would also bet elite talents like Bijan still go early at at least finally get paid.

But it's not really a marketplace. You can enter most markets when you are 18 years old and aren't forced to work for a specific employer.

Really they are entering an asset redistribution system where they are the asset but have no control over their market value. Everything that happens after that, including second contracts are fruit of the poisoned tree.

Sure, but I referring to the draft which is what you mentioned in your post. The draft itself is the marketplace at work. If a team values a player they take them. The constraint now (that needs to be adjusted imo) is the fixed pay.

 

[humpback]

My only problem with running back pay is that it is going backwards. CMC, Cook, Kamara, Henry etc signed deals for 13 to 16 AAV and now the top backs are having trouble getting 12 a year in a league that is basically printing money, all other positions are seeing increases in pay and the cap is going up.

I don't think AAV is the issue, I think it's guaranteed $. Even those guys didn't get a huge percentage of their deals guaranteed, they had to go out and keep performing in order to keep getting paid.

Really though, I think those guys all had better arguments to get paid than this recent crop. If a 23 year old CMC with his track record came on the market today I think he'd match or exceed the contract he got.

You aren't putting the human element into it. You show employees they are valued by paying them. When all the other positions within the NFL are making more money every year and your position is the only one making less it rubs people the wrong way, especially the employees in those positions. The scale of pay is irrelevant because this would be the case at a car wash, bowling alley, law firm, or the NFL.

I'm not really following. Teams don't value these employees (RBs) as much as other positions, which is precisely why they aren't paid as much, and yes, it's going to rub them the wrong way but that's how it goes.

Again, it's essentially a zero sum game- if you show RBs that you value them more, that means you're showing someone else that you value them less.