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Ice Raid Thread (1 Viewer)

parasaurolophus said:
The last raid on a meat processing plant did result in a jail sentence for the owner. 
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Good. How long was his sentence?

It doesn't appear that business owners that hire undocumented workers face anywhere near the same hostility from the public that the workers do.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Black people residing outside of designated areas was the law in South Africa for decades.   Miscegenation in America was against the law for decades.  Practicing Judaism in public in pre-WWII Germany was against the law. Sodomy was against the law in most of America for decades (and is still against the law in a few states).

"They broke the law" has never ever been a defense to obviously cruel and immoral government action that oppress minorities who had done no harm.  People who are making that argument may want to consider the company they put themselves in when they do so.
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I cant wait for identity theft and burglary to become legal. I for one, am tired of being on the wrong side of history for looking down on those things. 

 
Insomniac said:
Good. How long was his sentence?

It doesn't appear that business owners that hire undocumented workers face anywhere near the same hostility from the public that the workers do.
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18 months. I don't know the specifics of the case, e-verify use, etc. 

Part of the problem is that the media and the left gets so focused on making such a big deal about the poor illegal immigrants getting arrested, they seldom have any outrage or time left to report the details of the case and exactly how the owners broke the law, or if they did.

If a guy is employing 100 illegal immigrants and he knows it and is doing it to save money, that should be a big story. Not a big enough story that the 100 workers get off free and clear, but a big story. 

Instead what happens is we hear all about how horrible ICE is, the president is, etc and maybe a blurb about a prison sentence down the road.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
I cant wait for identity theft and burglary to become legal. I for one, am tired of being on the wrong side of history for looking down on those things. 
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I'm not talking about that one guy, although it was pretty cruel and stupid to deport him. I was speaking to posts like this one and this one that seem to support traumatizing a bunch of kids simply because their mostly well-intentioned parents failed to comply with our nonsense immigration laws when they came here X many years ago.

 
bananafish said:
I'm pretty sure he was talking about the undocumented workers. In fact I'm entirely sure. 
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That's weird. 

Pretty sure he was replying to this post.

Are you kidding me. He is here illegally, then commits 2 crimes, one of which he stole from someone. Hey everyone it's America, come on in, we don't care about anyone obeying the law. Good lord, wake up. OBEY THE LAW, why is that so hard for people to understand. 
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And if he was speaking of the workers committing identity theft, well then forgive me for not mentioning identity theft just in case that's what he was referring too, oh wait...

 
parasaurolophus said:
18 months. I don't know the specifics of the case, e-verify use, etc. 

Part of the problem is that the media and the left gets so focused on making such a big deal about the poor illegal immigrants getting arrested, they seldom have any outrage or time left to report the details of the case and exactly how the owners broke the law, or if they did.

If a guy is employing 100 illegal immigrants and he knows it and is doing it to save money, that should be a big story. Not a big enough story that the 100 workers get off free and clear, but a big story. 

Instead what happens is we hear all about how horrible ICE is, the president is, etc and maybe a blurb about a prison sentence down the road.  
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I don't thnk the media is wrong to report the administration of government-inflicted cruelty that victimizes children and terrorizes minority communities over fairly run of the mill criminal proceedings that target US businesses. The former certainly seems like the bigger story to me.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I cant wait for identity theft and burglary to become legal. I for one, am tired of being on the wrong side of history for looking down on those things. 
Click to expand...
The problem for me is the complicity of the government and the corporate donor base in the immigrants' being here. It's ridiculous to say for years, oh come in, help us with our books and our dirty jobs, rent them homes and apartments, take their taxes and spending, and then 10, 15, 20 years later come jerk them out of their homes, stick their kids in a pen, throw them in trucks and then put them on a plane to a place they know nothing about.

A few months back the Fox crowd was in an uproar about an illegal immigrant who murdered a girl in Iowa. Yeah that was horrible, but it was also revealed that he had been working for years on a farm owned by the biggest Republican donor in Iowa and one of the biggest in the country. Trump's own company Trump Org has been not just employing illegal aliens here in the US at his facilities but also recruiting them from specific villages in Central America. When that was exposed, they were all fired. The penalties for Trump Org or the people who run it? ZIP.

 
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Insomniac said:
Good. How long was his sentence?

It doesn't appear that business owners that hire undocumented workers face anywhere near the same hostility from the public that the workers do.
Click to expand...
Few Prosecuted for Illegal Employment of Immigrants

According to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, "ICE's worksite enforcement strategy focuses on the criminal prosecution of employers who knowingly hire illegal workers.[1]" However, actual prosecution of employers for employing immigrants without proper documentation actually has been relatively rare. For example, the latest available data show that during the last twelve months (April 2018 - March 2019) only 11 individuals (and no companies) were prosecuted in just 7 cases. There were no prosecutions during either of the last two months. See Table 1.

During the same period, these 11 prosecutions compare with 85,727 individuals prosecuted for illegal entry, 34,617 prosecuted for illegal re-entry, and 4,733 prosecuted for illegally bringing in or harboring immigrants. Given the millions of undocumented immigrants now living and working in this country, the odds of being criminally prosecuted for employing undocumented workers appears to be exceedingly remote.

Indeed, since criminal penalties for employers were first enacted by Congress in 1986, few employers have ever been prosecuted under these provisions (8 USC 1324a). Prosecutions have rarely climbed above 15 annually, and have never exceeded 20 individuals a year except for brief periods during 2005 under President Bush, and in the first year of the Obama Administration.

These results are based upon case-by-case information analyzed by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse University. These data were obtained from the Justice Department as a result of litigation brought by TRAC under the Freedom of Information Act.

Year-to-year fluctuations in the prosecution of employers are shown more clearly in Figure 1. Each bar represents the annual total number of prosecutions over the previous 12 months for the period covering March 2004 through March 2019. Prosecutions of employers since President Trump assumed office roughly parallel the number that occurred during all but the first year of the Obama Administration.

...

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The problem for me is the complicity of the government and the corporate donor base in the immigrants' being here. It's ridiculous to say for years, oh come in, help us with our books and our dirty jobs, and then 10, 15, 20 years later come jerk them out of their homes, stick their kids in a pen, throw them in trucks and then put them on a plane to a place they know nothing about.

A few months back the Fox crowd was in an uproar about an illegal immigrant who murdered a girl in Iowa. Yeah that was horrible, but it was also revealed that he had been working for years on a farm owned by the biggest Republican donor in Iowa and one of the biggest in the country. Trump's own company Trump Org has been not just employing illegal aliens here in the US at his facilities but also recruiting them from specific villages in Central America. When that was exposed, they were all fired. The penalties for Trump Org or the people who run it? ZIP.
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He used a fake ID and a counterfeit social. 

 
whoknew said:
Detroit man dies after deportation because of lack of insulin

The man, 41-year-old Jimmy Aldaoud, was an Iraqi national who was born in Greece, but came to the U.S. when he was a child, Politico reports. He had never lived in Iraq and did not speak Arabic, but was deported amid the Trump Administration’s immigration crackdown.

Edward Bajoka, an immigration lawyer and self-described close friend of the family, wrote on Facebook that Aldaoud was found dead on Wednesday. The cause of death appeared to be linked to an inability to get insulin for diabetes, according to Bajoka.
Click to expand...
Between this and those kids in the streets in Mississippi looking for their parents, I'm feeling pretty proud this morning.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The problem for me is the complicity of the government and the corporate donor base in the immigrants' being here. It's ridiculous to say for years, oh come in, help us with our books and our dirty jobs, and then 10, 15, 20 years later come jerk them out of their homes, stick their kids in a pen, throw them in trucks and then put them on a plane to a place they know nothing about.

A few months back the Fox crowd was in an uproar about an illegal immigrant who murdered a girl in Iowa. Yeah that was horrible, but it was also revealed that he had been working for years on a farm owned by the biggest Republican donor in Iowa and one of the biggest in the country. Trump's own company Trump Org has been not just employing illegal aliens here in the US at his facilities but also recruiting them from specific villages in Central America. When that was exposed, they were all fired. The penalties for Trump Org or the people who run it? ZIP.
Click to expand...
There really are many facets to this problem that aren't solvable by walls or slogans, that's for sure. This is a seemingly intractable problem caused by a lot of things that are way, way bigger than simply ICE deportations or immigration restrictions.

I'm talking about price floors, rent-seeking, borders, nation-states. These are all huge issues or problems. Part of the problem is that we have a system that has for so long ignored viable solutions to the problem that it's now in everybody's lap, and simple solutions just won't solve it. 

 
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parasaurolophus said:
18 months. I don't know the specifics of the case, e-verify use, etc. 

Part of the problem is that the media and the left gets so focused on making such a big deal about the poor illegal immigrants getting arrested, they seldom have any outrage or time left to report the details of the case and exactly how the owners broke the law, or if they did.

If a guy is employing 100 illegal immigrants and he knows it and is doing it to save money, that should be a big story. Not a big enough story that the 100 workers get off free and clear, but a big story. 

Instead what happens is we hear all about how horrible ICE is, the president is, etc and maybe a blurb about a prison sentence down the road.  
Click to expand...
I believe the fact that the undocumented workers are overhelmingly non-white and the business owners are mostly white plays a role too.

 
urbanhack said:
Between this and those kids in the streets in Mississippi looking for their parents, I'm feeling pretty proud this morning.
Click to expand...
When American dads do something illegal and go to prison, I'm sure the kids are looking for their dad on a daily basis and are pretty sad.

 
rockaction said:
I know you're talking to Bucky86, but let me interject. If we're going to prosecute this to the full extent of the law, Bucky86 may be looking for a severe penalty for the man responsible for the illegals being able to work and procure a salary, yes. These laws are there for a reason, the argument goes, and should be prosecuted within sentencing guidelines that are established by the legislatures and adhered to by courts. Or at court discretion, either way.

But that's me interjecting and I think that's where he's coming from. 
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Well, I believe Bucky 86 is in favor of illegals coming here and working and living and disagrees with them being rounded up and deported 

So it seems odd that he wants the employers fined and jailed , that would make it harder for illegals to come here and work and live

So which is it would be my question?

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Well, I believe Bucky 86 is in favor of illegals coming here and working and living and disagrees with them being rounded up and deported 

So it seems odd that he wants the employers fined and jailed , that would make it harder for illegals to come here and work and live

So which is it would be my question?
Click to expand...
Well, we'll see if he answers. :)

 
Insomniac said:
I believe the fact that the undocumented workers are overhelmingly non-white and the business owners are mostly white plays a role too.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that's why they don't get sentenced as often or why the media doesn't report?

Or both? 

 
Lutherman2112 said:
Few Prosecuted for Illegal Employment of Immigrants

According to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, "ICE's worksite enforcement strategy focuses on the criminal prosecution of employers who knowingly hire illegal workers.[1]" However, actual prosecution of employers for employing immigrants without proper documentation actually has been relatively rare. For example, the latest available data show that during the last twelve months (April 2018 - March 2019) only 11 individuals (and no companies) were prosecuted in just 7 cases. There were no prosecutions during either of the last two months. See Table 1.

During the same period, these 11 prosecutions compare with 85,727 individuals prosecuted for illegal entry, 34,617 prosecuted for illegal re-entry, and 4,733 prosecuted for illegally bringing in or harboring immigrants. Given the millions of undocumented immigrants now living and working in this country, the odds of being criminally prosecuted for employing undocumented workers appears to be exceedingly remote.

Indeed, since criminal penalties for employers were first enacted by Congress in 1986, few employers have ever been prosecuted under these provisions (8 USC 1324a). Prosecutions have rarely climbed above 15 annually, and have never exceeded 20 individuals a year except for brief periods during 2005 under President Bush, and in the first year of the Obama Administration.

These results are based upon case-by-case information analyzed by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse University. These data were obtained from the Justice Department as a result of litigation brought by TRAC under the Freedom of Information Act.

Year-to-year fluctuations in the prosecution of employers are shown more clearly in Figure 1. Each bar represents the annual total number of prosecutions over the previous 12 months for the period covering March 2004 through March 2019. Prosecutions of employers since President Trump assumed office roughly parallel the number that occurred during all but the first year of the Obama Administration.

...
Click to expand...
How many were prosecuted from workplace raids? Isn't that the relevant comparison? 

 
JohnnyU said:
When American dads do something illegal and go to prison, I'm sure the kids are looking for their dad on a daily basis and are pretty sad.
Click to expand...
When Americans go to prison they've usually done something that is not only illegal but was also violent or caused significant harm to a specific victim or victims. Victimless crimes by first-time offenders are basically never punished with prison time, and when they are there's usually a lot of outrage. Plus the kids know where their parents are.

This is an absurd comparison, obviously intended to allow those who are complicit in the state-sanctioned child traumatization we are administering to feel less bad about it.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
When Americans go to prison they've usually done something that is not only illegal but was also violent or caused significant harm to a specific victim or victims. Victimless crimes by first-time offenders are basically never punished with prison time, and when they are there's usually a lot of outrage. Plus the kids know where their parents are.

This is an absurd comparison, obviously intended to e those who are complicit in the state-sanctioned child torture we are administering to feel less bad about it.
Click to expand...
identity theft is a serious crime.   Also, entering the country illegally isn't trivial.   Both deserve deportation.   Those that are working without identification are obviously being paid under the table and that should require a big fine to the companies doing it.

 
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rockaction said:
I know you're talking to Bucky86, but let me interject. If we're going to prosecute this to the full extent of the law, Bucky86 may be looking for a severe penalty for the man responsible for the illegals being able to work and procure a salary, yes. These laws are there for a reason, the argument goes, and should be prosecuted within sentencing guidelines that are established by the legislatures and adhered to by courts. Or at court discretion, either way.

But that's me interjecting and I think that's where he's coming from. 
Click to expand...
Go after the employers!!! becomes a popular talking point when these things happen.

#1. They do.

#2. It is obviously much harder to figure out intent when documentation checks out. 

#3 people don't really understand how this all works. The go after the employers mantra was alive and well when the toledo landscaping place was raided. What nobody wanted to talk about was the only reason they went after the landscaping company was because of the information they got from the document mill they shut down and prosecuted. In other words those workers had false documents and had paid for them.  

 
TobiasFunke said:
When Americans go to prison they've usually done something that is not only illegal but was also violent or caused significant harm to a specific victim or victims. Victimless crimes by first-time offenders are basically never punished with prison time, and when they are there's usually a lot of outrage. Plus the kids know where their parents are.

This is an absurd comparison, obviously intended to allow those who are complicit in the state-sanctioned child traumatization we are administering to feel less bad about it.
Click to expand...
Oh I see, so only Americans commit violent crimes.  I didnt know you had your own personal database tracking every crime by every person in the world. Get real.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that's why they don't get sentenced as often or why the media doesn't report?

Or both? 
Click to expand...
Both. I was mostly thinking about the public's attitude hostile attitude towards immigrants. It's not anything new. The history of anti-immigration movements has the people already here being hostile to new groups of immigrants like the Irish, Chinese, Southern European, and Eastern Europeans in previous times The Central Americans are just the latest chapter in US immigration history.

 
Skoo said:
While I'm sure they are good workers, it's about cheap labor.

I was like 17 when I got my first glimpse of this working at a pizza shop.

Soon after hiring undocumented guy my boss tells me:

"Hey, don't tell anyone here how much you make. It's none of their business."
Click to expand...
This has always been one of the great scams of American business, in every profession. And now they've got it ingrained in most of us to comply.

 
irish eyes said:
Identity thieves are the scourge of the earth. Had something along th these lines happen to me recently. You can lock up these pieces of garbage with the worst of the worst. 
Click to expand...
Document mills don't only make documents for downtrodden immigrants looking for a better life. 

I am quite confident we would have way fewer of them if there wasn't a constant stream of customers coming across the border.

 
Insomniac said:
Both. I was mostly thinking about the public's attitude hostile attitude towards immigrants. It's not anything new. The history of anti-immigration movements has the people already here being hostile to new groups of immigrants like the Irish, Chinese, Southern European, and Eastern Europeans in previous times The Central Americans are just the latest chapter in US immigration history.
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Sure, some truth to this of course. We don't have the proudest history.  

 
JohnnyU said:
identity theft is a serious crime.   Also, entering the country illegally isn't trivial.   Both deserve deportation.   Those that are working without identification are obviously being paid under the table and that should require a big fine to the companies doing it.
Click to expand...
What part of this post makes it OK to traumatize innocent children, in your opinion? What pressing government priority justifies actions that result in screaming, crying traumatized children who don't know where their parents have been taken or when/if they will ever see them again?

 
parasaurolophus said:
How many were prosecuted from workplace raids? Isn't that the relevant comparison? 
Click to expand...
I have no idea. And I don't care. It is the employer's obligation to follow the law.

The Feds most often do not seek prosecution of business and owners that employ illegal immigrants. We were promised a "three legged stool" that included penalties for employers who hired "unauthorized immigrants" with the passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.

It just isn't happening.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Go after the employers!!! becomes a popular talking point when these things happen.

#1. They do.
Click to expand...
The OP mentions that 680 undocumented workers were rounded up at a Mississippi food processing plant. Is the plant facing penalties?

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
For a steady stream of exceptions too numerous to appropriately disregard, see Radley Balko's twitter feed.
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Of course. And I strongly oppose those imprisonments/separations, too- as do most of the people who also oppose these cruel ICE enforcement actions, so it's not like there's any hypocrisy at work here. But in those cases at least any children of the imprisoned know where their parents are and can visit with them regularly. It's just not a valid comparison.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Of course. And I strongly oppose those imprisonments/separations, too- as do most of the people who also oppose these cruel ICE enforcement actions, so it's not like there's any hypocrisy at work here. But in those cases at least any children of the imprisoned know where their parents are and can visit with them regularly. It's just not a valid comparison.
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I wasn't pursuing a hypocrisy angle. I just didn't want our overworked and occasionally brutal criminal justice system to get more credit than it deserves.

 
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Even ICE apparently knows this is cruel and traumatizing especially towards innocent children.  According to this woman they have specific policies in place to prevent or minimize the damage to children and families when they conduct workplace raids (apologies, I don't have the time or energy to locate the policies themselves).  They just didn't follow them.

It's not hard to connect the dots and reach a justifiable conclusion as to why ICE agents don't feel obligated to follow their own policies regarding cruelty towards immigrant families these days.

 
JohnnyU said:
I also think it's great to open up 680 factory jobs for American citizens.  The 680 arrested were here illegally and doesn't deserve those jobs over Americans.
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Were they all illegal's?  Did any have warrants?  Something had to trigger this.

 
Da Guru said:
Were they all illegal's?  Did any have warrants?  Something had to trigger this.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming the 680 didn't have any documentation saying they have a right to be in the US.  If they arrested those that did, then that is wrong.

 
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