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Ice Raid Thread (2 Viewers)

TobiasFunke said:
What part of this post makes it OK to traumatize innocent children, in your opinion? What pressing government priority justifies actions that result in screaming, crying traumatized children who don't know where their parents have been taken or when/if they will ever see them again?
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Another ridiculous deflection for criminals.  Hey, you have kids you get a pass, do whatever the hell you want. They bring kids here knowing what might happen, but nope it's everyone else's fault. Bravo enablers. 

 
Sammy3469 said:
Tell that to law enforcement then, plus the vast majority of harmful ID theft these days are cyber crimes not document mills.  
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Regardless, if they are here illegally and / or has stolen the identity of another, they need to be deported.

 
irish eyes said:
Another ridiculous deflection for criminals.  Hey, you have kids you get a pass, do whatever the hell you want. They bring kids here knowing what might happen, but nope it's everyone else's fault. Bravo enablers. 
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That’s a morality decision for the US, not a legal one.

 
irish eyes said:
Another ridiculous deflection for criminals.  Hey, you have kids you get a pass, do whatever the hell you want. They bring kids here knowing what might happen, but nope it's everyone else's fault. Bravo enablers. 
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I asked a straightforward question. Here it is again:

What pressing government priority justifies actions that result in screaming, crying traumatized children who don't know where their parents have been taken or when/if they will ever see them again? 
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If you don't want to answer it, just don't.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Even ICE apparently knows this is cruel and traumatizing especially towards innocent children.  According to this woman they have specific policies in place to prevent or minimize the damage to children and families when they conduct workplace raids (apologies, I don't have the time or energy to locate the policies themselves).  They just didn't follow them.

It's not hard to connect the dots and reach a justifiable conclusion as to why ICE agents don't feel obligated to follow their own policies regarding cruelty towards immigrant families these days.
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On her org's website they link to this document, which may be what she's referring to. No idea if that's an official ICE document.

 
parasaurolophus said:
That's weird. 

Pretty sure he was replying to this post.

And if he was speaking of the workers committing identity theft, well then forgive me for not mentioning identity theft just in case that's what he was referring too, oh wait...
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The identity theft stuff is a big concern of mine in all of this.  I'm really interested in this eVerify.  It must be terrible if is isn't flagging deceased socials and stuff like people using their kids socials with obvious date of birth issues.  

The potential to have a good eVerify system is there when you consider all the data governments have on us through tax forms, birth records, social security records, state driver's license/state ID info, etc.  

I wonder if eVerify might even be counterproductive.  Perhaps employees ignore red flags because, hey, he passes eVerify!

 
JohnnyU said:
Kids are separated from their parents when they go to prison.  It stands to reason there would be a disruption for those here illegally when they get caught.  I'm sure they will be reunited when they are deported.
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I keep hearing this argument and it’s a lousy comp. A person is arrested their kids are likely at home. The kids are with someone else almost always and if not put in a decent room until someone responsible can pick them up. This is real life, this is torturous to children to treat them like criminals, which they are being treated as.

 
And some may not like the comp but it’s like the brothel/prostitution situation. It’s always the madam/prostitute who gets busted, never the John. But golly why can’t we get rid of prostitution? Demand, demand, demand with no serious pain to the buyer.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
The OP mentions that 680 undocumented workers were rounded up at a Mississippi food processing plant. Is the plant facing penalties?
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It was several plants. I think 7 in 6 cities. 

We dont know if they are facing penalties yet. We dont even know if they did anything wrong yet either. 

Chances are we wont find anything out about that for a while and it will mostly go unnoticed. 

 
Mile High said:
You seriously think they were hired for these jobs over America citizens?
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I'm sure these companies exhausted all their options with Indeed, Craigslist, Local Newspaper Ads, etc. before they were forced to hire undocumented immigrants.

 
Don't Noonan said:
LOL at the folks saying it is cruel to enforce the law!
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I hope nobody would say that it's always cruel to enforce the law.

I also hope nobody would say that it's never cruel to enforce the law.

Both statements would be fairly ridiculous.

I hope most people realize that whether it's cruel to enforce the law in any particular instance depends on the specific situation and circumstances.

In this case, the way ICE is going about it, it seems more cruel than not.

 
[scooter] said:
You're laughing at the written policies of virtually every police department in this country.
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He's doing a lot worse than that. He's saying it's laughable to claim that enforcing the law is cruel, that the law is by definition just. It's a patently absurd line of thinking, and it's incredibly dangerous.  Segregation was the law of the land- I hope we would all agree that its administration was cruel. The Nuremberg laws were also obviously laws- I hope we would all agree that their administration was cruel.

It is genuinely disturbing that people would fall back on "that's the law!" as if that circular reasoning provides any sort of moral foundation for hurting innocent people or even harming guilty people disproportionately.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Go after the employers!!! becomes a popular talking point when these things happen.

#1. They do.

#2. It is obviously much harder to figure out intent when documentation checks out. 

#3 people don't really understand how this all works. The go after the employers mantra was alive and well when the toledo landscaping place was raided. What nobody wanted to talk about was the only reason they went after the landscaping company was because of the information they got from the document mill they shut down and prosecuted. In other words those workers had false documents and had paid for them.  
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I was interjecting in an argument, and I take the problems seriously. False documentation, SSNs, and other identity claims are difficult to ascertain and that the employer farms the work out to the document or employment status is interesting. That becomes a question for the left then: Do we want stricter penalties (like strict liability) on employers who employ people from these employment agencies. How much wink-wink nudge-nudge is going on between the employer and the agency, and so on.

It seems highly unlikely that ICE raids a swath of businesses owned by the same guy without some sort of knowledge, and I'll wait for the investigative details to come out before jumping to my own conclusion, which I seriously don't have at this point. I cannot tell by current law whether the employer should be liable or not. I'm basically just translating two different sentiments on a message board. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
You’d agree that a two person crime where there’s only news of one party being charged makes that an open question, right?
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Let's put it this way, if the illegals are in fact illegals, they are in the wrong and should be deported.  As is the company who hired them, who should get heavy fines.

 
JohnnyU said:
Let's put it this way, if the illegals are in fact illegals, they are in the wrong and should be deported.  As is the company who hired them, who should get heavy fines.
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Fine the companies and watch the people self deport. Start with Trump Org for god’s sake.

 
This reminds me of Scotty Evil. Just file lawsuits and impose fines. ICE/DHS can file 50 form lawsuits in each state every day if they want to. The manpower, resources, risk, cost and time to do one raid in 6 towns is absurd.

 
whoknew said:
Why?
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Discussions leading to this point are pretty much why meaningful debate doesn't happen about immigration lately, or even in the last thirty years.

One side starts with a hard line, the other side goes for full amnesty, basically.

It's silly. 

 
JohnnyU said:
Because it's against the law.  They are lawbreakers if they are here illegally or has stolen identity. 
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So? We don't enforce lots of laws. Or we don't give the maximum punishment in lots and lots of cases. Why should this law  a) be enforced and b) given the max punishment?

 
JohnnyU said:
Because it's against the law.  They are lawbreakers if they are here illegally or has stolen identity. 
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Do you have a Home Depot in your town or county? Do you ever see illegal aliens there? Please I beg you, call the Sheriff, they’ll be shocked to discover the crimes being committed there every day and I’m sure they’ll thank you.

 
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whoknew said:
So? We don't enforce lots of laws. Or we don't give the maximum punishment in lots and lots of cases. Why should this law  a) be enforced and b) given the max punishment?
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That is just plain silly.  Max punishment?  It's not like they are being put in prison if they haven't murdered, raped, etc.  They are getting deported.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Do you have a Home Depot in your town or county? Do you ever see illegal aliens there? Please I beg you, call the Sheriff, they’ll be shocked to discover the crimes being committed there every day and I’m sure they’ll thank you.
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Cleanup of the problem is in order.  Time to quit ignoring it.  I believe there would be a slow down in illegal immigration if they thought they wouldn't get hired.  The companies who are complicit are just as, if not more, guilty. 

 
So I have a question that might be dumb but here goes:  Aren't the detention centers way overcrowded as it is?   Shouldn't we be focusing more on processing the illegals already in custody before rounding up more and thereby making the problem worse?   

It is one thing if these were drug dealers, thieves and rapists but from what I've read it sounds like most of them were not causing trouble, just working here illegally.   I just don't get the urgency in bringing them now when the detention centers are beyond capacity.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
This reminds me of Scotty Evil. Just file lawsuits and impose fines. ICE/DHS can file 50 form lawsuits in each state every day if they want to. The manpower, resources, risk, cost and time to do one raid in 6 towns is absurd.
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How would you deport people then? They dont leave just because they got a court order. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
So when somebody uses a fake id and a stolen credit card to buy something at a store, the store did something wrong? 
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There is already a law on the books making it illegal for companies to hire illegals.  There isn't a law against a store when someone uses a stolen card.  

 
JohnnyU said:
That is just plain silly.  Max punishment?  It's not like they are being put in prison if they haven't murdered, raped, etc.  They are getting deported.
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Aren't they being put into detention centers for weeks if not months until processed or are they deported immediately?

 
JohnnyU said:
That is just plain silly.  Max punishment?  It's not like they are being put in prison if they haven't murdered, raped, etc.  They are getting deported.
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Many of them, especially those with spouses and children who would remain in the US, would prefer prison to deportation.

There is plenty of room for policy disagreement (for example I also disagree with the statement that "cleanup of the problem is in order" because I don't think there's a problem).  But this sort of willful ignorance about the extent of the cruelty that your policy preferences inflict is not OK.

 
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Godsbrother said:
So I have a question that might be dumb but here goes:  Aren't the detention centers way overcrowded as it is?   Shouldn't we be focusing more on processing the illegals already in custody before rounding up more and thereby making the problem worse?   

It is one thing if these were drug dealers, thieves and rapists but from what I've read it sounds like most of them were not causing trouble, just working here illegally.   I just don't get the urgency in bringing them now when the detention centers are beyond capacity.
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The tennessee raid had several of them that were wanted for felonies. 10-11 i think. 

 
JohnnyU said:
That is just plain silly.  Max punishment?  It's not like they are being put in prison if they haven't murdered, raped, etc.  They are getting deported.
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Yea. I assume that the max penalty for being in the country undocumented is deportation. Am I wrong on that?

 
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