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Ice Raid Thread (1 Viewer)

TobiasFunke said:
Most of them, especially those with spouses and children who would remain in the US, would prefer prison to deportation.

There is plenty of room for policy disagreement (for example I also disagree with the statement that "cleanup of the problem is in order" because I don't think there's a problem).  But this sort of willful ignorance about the extent of the cruelty that your policy preferences inflict is not OK.
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We can disagree with policy, I have no problem with that.

 
JohnnyU said:
There is already a law on the books making it illegal for companies to hire illegals.  There isn't a law against a store when someone uses a stolen card.  
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Isnt there a law that requires employers to make a good faith effort not just an absolute "no illegals!"

 
JohnnyU said:
We can disagree with policy, I have no problem with that.
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Great, me neither.

But you seem willfully ignorant of the actual harm that the policies you support are inflicting, both on those who made a willful choice to cross the border illegally and those whose lives they touch. And I do have a problem with that sort of willful ignorance, because it's dangerous.  If people don't understand the real world consequences of the policies they support, they are more apt to support cruel and destructive policies.

That's why I believe you and every other person who supports aggressive enforcement of immigration laws and Trump-era policies like family separation and cracking down on amnesty-seekers should be shown images and videos of the crying, traumatized women and children who are a consequence of your preferred policies at every available opportunity. If you can watch all that and still think it's worth it, so be it.  Like you said we can disagree on policy ... just so long as our policy preferences are informed ones.

 
whoknew said:
That's a different argument. 

What do you mean by no business being here?
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I believe that is pretty clear.  If they are here illegally, they have no business being in this country.  They need to follow the correct channels for coming here...period..

 
parasaurolophus said:
How would you deport people then? They dont leave just because they got a court order.
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They kind of might or even just would. They're here for one of two reasons - either work or asylum. If they're here for work then work will dry up. If they're here for asylum there's a process for that and we welcome those in search of freedom with open arms.

 
JohnnyU said:
I believe that is pretty clear.  If they are here illegally, they have no business being in this country.  They need to follow the correct channels for coming here...period..
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Can I ask a favor?  Please read this. It's not very long.

I'll even post the very short conclusion if you don't feel like clicking through (emphasis mine):
 

Conclusion

Unauthorized immigrants who want to regularize their status in this country cannot just “get in line.” There are lines, but a large number of aspiring immigrants are not eligible to be in any of them. Even if a prospective immigrant does meet the formal requirements to immigrate, the wait can be very long if she or he is applying from countries that are currently oversubscribed.
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TobiasFunke said:
Can I ask a favor?  Please read this. It's not very long.

I'll even post the very short conclusion if you don't feel like clicking through (emphasis mine):
 
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They must follow the same rules as everyone else.  If they aren't eligible to immigrate to the US, they can't come to the US.  Tough for them if the line is too long.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to circumvent the process.

 
JohnnyU said:
They must follow the same rules as everyone else.  If they aren't eligible to immigrate to the US, they can't come to the US.  Tough for them if the line is too long.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to circumvent the process.
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Another option- if our rules give desperate people no choice but to circumvent the process, perhaps we should change the rules?  Especially since your family and mine (assuming you're not Native American or descended from slaves) were both lucky enough to emigrate when those rules did not exist, and since those rules seem contradictory to what many consider the foundation and purpose of the country?

This is the question that supporters of an immigration crackdown need to answer IMO: what is the policy reason behind treating this largely Hispanic immigration wave so very differently than the largely European immigration wave of the early 20th century? 

I hope you ask yourself that question, and do some research into whatever answers you come up with. FWIW I've heard many attempted explanations, but have have yet to hear an one that holds water. Perhaps yours will be the first.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Another option- if our rules give desperate people no choice but to circumvent the process, perhaps we should change the rules?  Especially since your family and mine (assuming you're not Native American or descended from slaves) were both lucky enough to emigrate when those rules did not exist, and since those rules seem contradictory to what many consider the foundation and purpose of the country?

This is the question that supporters of an immigration crackdown need to answer IMO: what is the policy reason behind treating this largely Hispanic immigration wave so very differently than the largely European immigration wave of the early 20th century? 

I hope you ask yourself that question, and do some research into whatever answers you come up with. FWIW I've heard many attempted explanations, but have have yet to hear an one that holds water. Perhaps yours will be the first.
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I believe there should be special judges available by Skype if they aren't on the border, to review special cases.  The problem comes when everyone that crosses the border claim asylum when they are here for economic reasons, which isn't a valid asylum claim.

 
irish eyes said:
Parents here illegally, I thought I made myself pretty clear.
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You didn't, because that's not an answer to the question.  Here it is for a third time:

What pressing government priority justifies actions that result in screaming, crying traumatized children who don't know where their parents have been taken or when/if they will ever see them again? 
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"Parents here illegally" is not a pressing government priority.  Not every violation of federal law justifies traumatizing children. 

For example, I assume you wouldn't want to devote massive government resources and traumatize children in order to enforce the federal prohibition on selling liquor-flavored sherbet that contains more liquor than necessary to flavor the sherbet.  So what is the pressing government priority that you think justifies traumatizing children in this instance?

 
parasaurolophus said:
The tennessee raid had several of them that were wanted for felonies. 10-11 i think. 
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It was 10, if this was the roundup you are talking about.

"Ten of the 97 people detained after an ICE raid at a Grainger County slaughterhouse are slated to appear in front of a judge in federal court in Greeneville on Friday.

Of the 10 facing federal charges, seven of them are charged with reentering the United States after they were removed. Two are charged with failure to leave the country after being ordered to leave. One is charged with reentering the country after being convicted of a felony. The dates of their deportations, or orders to leave the country, range from August 2002 to June 2017."

 
supermike80 said:
Dude..you are utterly wasting your time with this one.  Just wait. He will prove it shortly.    The ONLY right answer is his..Ever. End of conversation
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Didn't you repeatedly promise to ignore me? Because badmouthing me to third parties knowing I'll see the post isn't ignoring me. It's just a cowardly form of trolling. Ignore me or don't, please.

 
supermike80 said:
Dude..you are utterly wasting your time with this one.  Just wait. He will prove it shortly.    The ONLY right answer is his..Ever. End of conversation
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:goodposting:  Let him continue to write 30 paragraphs of nonsense.   :lol:

I just skip over his posts now.

 
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JohnnyU said:
I believe there should be special judges available by Skype if they aren't on the border, to review special cases.  The problem comes when everyone that crosses the border claim asylum when they are here for economic reasons, which isn't a valid asylum claim.
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This isn't an answer to my question. Here it is again:

What is the policy reason behind treating this largely Hispanic immigration wave so very differently than the largely European immigration wave of the early 20th century? 

 
I know this is an unpopular opinion here but I just don't have a lot of sympathy. 

There are places in the world that as an American I would not feel comfortable going to.  So i don't.  And I especially wouldn't bring my children there.

The laws are the laws.  And while I agree that laws are sometimes meant to be changed, then change them.  Until then, enforce them.  If you are here illegally, you are subject to be deported.  The fact that you had unprotected sex and had a kid does not automatically mean you're immune from this fact. 

If you don't show that you are willing to enforce the law, then there is zero disincentive for illegals to come here.   

My 2 cents.  You took the risk and lost--there is accountability for actions people take. 

 
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Don't Noonan said:
:goodposting:  Let him continue to write 30 paragraphs of nonsense.   :lol:

I just skip over his posts now.
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It seems like just yesterday he gave us in the Trump thread a PSF farewell post.  I think he told us something like the only way to save our souls was to vote for Warren (or Bernie)?  Warren.... :lmao:   That aged well.  

 
TobiasFunke said:
You didn't, because that's not an answer to the question.  Here it is for a third time:

"Parents here illegally" is not a pressing government priority.  Not every violation of federal law justifies traumatizing children. 

For example, I assume you wouldn't want to devote massive government resources and traumatize children in order to enforce the federal prohibition on selling liquor-flavored sherbet that contains more liquor than necessary to flavor the sherbet.  So what is the pressing government priority that you think justifies traumatizing children in this instance?
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YOU are saying it isn't a pressing priority. I wasn't aware you were running the government.

 
knowledge dropper said:
It seems like just yesterday he gave us in the Trump thread a PSF farewell post.  I think he told us something like the only way to save our souls was to vote for Warren (or Bernie)?  Warren.... :lmao:   That aged well.  
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I specifically didn't tell you vote for Warren or anyone else. I simply asked people not to vote for Trump and to devote their time and energy to downballot races. Like I said I'm aware it's very unlikely that anyone would be convinced, but I felt I had to try.

And I don't believe I said goodbye forever, because i assumed the mood to visit would strike me from time to time, as it did this afternoon (also I remember @jon_mx's long farewell thread from last month, and we can see how well that turned out ;) ). I'm just planning to/hoping to be around here a lot less. We'll see how it goes.

And please, if you want to talk about me, address me directly or tag me instead of indulging in this cowardly shtick. I don't have you on ignore and I have no personal quarrel with you. If you've got a problem with me I'm happy to hear you out.

 
irish eyes said:
YOU are saying it isn't a pressing priority. I wasn't aware you were running the government.
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No, I'm saying "it's illegal" and nothing more can't make something a pressing priority. Because unless you want to raise taxes to 90% and live in a permanent police state that would make the Gestapo and Big Brother look like Libertarian utopias, we can't aggressively enforce every single law on the books. That's just not reality. So why is enforcing this one worth traumatizing children?

 
parasaurolophus said:
As much as a i disagree with tobias, i would never just skip over what he posts. He is always well sourced and he is an intelligent guy. 

That's a mistake on your part.
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Thanks GB.

After a few weeks' absence I've tried extra-hard to be careful and respectful in my less-frequent posting over the last couple days, just to see how it went. It went sideways quick, but kudos to @JohnnyU for bucking the trend and offering thoughtful responses even if I disagreed with them or found them wanting.

 
JohnnyU said:
Cleanup of the problem is in order.  Time to quit ignoring it.  I believe there would be a slow down in illegal immigration if they thought they wouldn't get hired.  The companies who are complicit are just as, if not more, guilty. 
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IMO they are more guilty. Immigrants come here illegally precisely because there is work to be had.

 
Don't Noonan said:
So, to be clear, you want me to call the Sheriff on any hispanic looking dudes standing out front of my local Home Depot?
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I'm using :sarcasm: but making a point. I'm saying anyone who claims they have real concerns about Hispanics being here illegally should (and it's a joke, Fyi). My point was this notion that immigrants are here illegally but surreptitiously and the issue of sanctuary cities is ridiculous - conservative parishes/counties know exactly where the illegal aliens are working and living, but clearly people who run those jurisdictions know that they are wanted, by the people who own companies that run factories, who do construction, who rent houses and apartments, service industry, etc., etc. It's not some mystery, the people who run the most conservatives locales in the land want those people there because of $$$$ and the Sheriff isn't going near them.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I'm using :sarcasm: but making a point. I'm saying anyone who claims they have real concerns about Hispanics being here illegally should. My point was this notion that immigrants are here illegally but surreptitiously and the issue of sanctuary cities is ridiculous - conservative parishes/counties know exactly where the illegally aliens are working and living, but clearly people who run those jurisdictions know that they are wanted, by the people who own companies that run factories, who do construction, who rent houses and apartments, service industry, etc., etc. It's not some mystery, the people who run the most conservatives locales in the land want those people there because of $$$$ and the Sheriff isn't going near them.
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Fair enough.  I haven't seen any Hispanics out front of my local Home Depot anyways.

If Democrats only cared as much about the homeless folks in America as much as they do about illegal aliens perhaps the homeless rate wouldn't by skyrocketing right now.  Oh that's right, homeless folks don't vote.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Fair enough.  I haven't seen any Hispanics out front of my local Home Depot anyways.

If Democrats only cared as much about the homeless folks in America as much as they do about illegal aliens perhaps the homeless rate wouldn't by skyrocketing right now.  Oh that's right, homeless folks don't vote.
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Remind me again what the Republicans are doing about the homeless folks?

 
sho nuff said:
Please stick to the topic rather than piling on posts that are only aimed at bashing a poster.
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God, I really like Tobias, but will you please stop moderating and playing board cop? It all starts from there. If there's something in the water, it'll generally pass without you jumping in and board copping a thread into a PSF moderation forum back-and-forth.

Same. damn. People. Every. Time. 

 
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rockaction said:
God, I love Tobias, but will you please stop moderating and playing board cop? It all starts from there. If there's something in the water, it'll generally pass without you jumping in and board copping a thread into a PSF moderation forum back-and-forth.

Same. damn. People. Every. Time. 
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Chief...just giving ol KD a taste of what he does constantly when people are actually discussing current topics and not posters.

HTH

 
Don't Noonan said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I mean Noonan, look at Donald Trump, illegal aliens were cleaning his freakin' bedroom. But OMG where are they? How can we find them?
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I have no knowledge of this.  
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Making President Trump’s Bed: A Housekeeper Without Papers

 


...By the time Ms. Morales was hired, Ms. Diaz had been working at the club since 2010 and had the job of cleaning Mr. Trump’s residence.

She said she washed and ironed Mr. Trump’s white boxers, golf shirts and khaki trousers, as well as his sheets and towels. Everything belonging to Mr. Trump, his wife, Melania, and their son, Barron, was washed with special detergent in a smaller, separate washing machine, she said.

“He is extremely meticulous about everything. If he arrives suddenly, everyone runs around like crazy” because Mr. Trump inspects everything closely, Ms. Diaz said.

She recalled a nervous moment in 2012, when Mr. Trump approached her and asked her to follow him to the clubhouse, a renovated 1930s Georgian manor, where he proceeded to run his fingers around the edges of frames on the wall and over table surfaces to check for dust.

“You did a really great job,” she said he told her, and handed her a $100 bill.

That same year, she said, Mr. Trump had an outburst over some orange stains on the collar of his white golf shirt, which Ms. Diaz described as stubborn remnants of his makeup, which she had difficulty removing.

When Ms. Morales joined the housekeeping team in 2013, Ms. Diaz was in charge of training her, and began to take her to tend to Mr. Trump’s house. In November of that year, when Ms. Diaz quit, Ms. Morales and the housekeeping supervisor took on the job of cleaning Mr. Trump’s house together.

Ms. Morales said she will never forget the day Mr. Trump pulled up to the pro shop in his cart as she was washing its large, arched windows. Noticing that Ms. Morales, who is shy of five feet tall, could not reach the top, he said, “Excuse me,” grabbed her rag and wiped the upper portion of the glass.

Mr. Trump then asked Ms. Morales her name and where she was from, she recalled. “I said, ‘I am from Guatemala.’ He said, ‘Guatemalans are hard-working people.’” The president then reached into his pocket and handed her a $50 bill.

“I told myself, ‘God bless him.’ I thought, he’s a good person,” Ms. Morales recalled.

Soon after Mr. Trump launched his campaign for the presidency, in June 2015, Ms. Morales recalled, one of the managers summoned her to tell her that she could no longer work inside Mr. Trump’s house. ...
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