Jordan Reed - TE - SF (1 Viewer)

[Bayhawks]

Let me get this straight:

There is room to improve his craft (and right now he's TE8, as a rookie, in PPG)

He's not succeeding on pure talent (although he's only played TE for 3 years)

He doesn't still have a lot to learn about being a successful receiver (never mind that TEs/WRs like Gonzalez, Fitzgerald, Johnson, HOFers like Rice, T Brown, etc were ALWAYS improving their skills as a receiver)

So, first-you're contradicting yourself when you say there's room to improve, then saying "not really-how much better can you run a pass route," then you say he's not succeeding on pure talent, despite the fact that he is in his first year in this offense, and only his 3rd year as a TE, then you ignore the fact that HOF-caliber receivers/TEs (who were receivers through HS, college, etc) were learning how to be better receivers well into their NFL career.

Yeah, you're making good points here.

If you twist my arguments and distort every concession I've made for the other side of the argument, then yeah you're making good points here. I addressed most of this in my last post.

Except I didn't do that. You said "there is a limit to how good you can a route no?" after saying there's room to improve. That's your direct quote. So don't pretend like I'm twisting your argument or distorting your concessions. You seem to think that Reed, as a rookie, is as good as it's going to get.

He is a top-5-10 TE, RIGHT NOW, as a rookie, without any improvement, without having the benefit of truly knowing the offense, without the benefit of more than 3 years as a TE, without being more involved in the red zone. If ANY (OR ALL) of these things change, he could become a top TE.

I don't see him regressing, so if that holds true, you're looking at a very young TE with a floor of top 5-10 TE production, and a ceiling of top tier TE.

 

[treat88]

I believe that even if he "has room to improve his craft for sure" like I said, these improvements won't mark a huge uptick in his current production.

That's really the dichotomy in the discussion.

Leaving the talk of how "special" his physical talents are out of the equation....If he improves, why would his production not be expected to improve? Do you simply believe his situation is as good as it could possibly be and that the Skins just won't utilize the TE spot any more than they do despite that projected improvement by Reed?

I have no clue where Reed will end up stacking up in comparison to his peers headed into 2014, let alone his historical rank amongst TE's. I just disagree that he is at his ceiling as a rookie. I think it's an incredibly difficult position for a collegiate player to transition to at the NFL level, and when a rookie is putting up the kind of rookie season Reed is, especially given his overall inexperience at the position, that it certainly warrants optimism.

I do agree that his size could limit his red zone utilization in comparison to Gronk/Graham but after those two I think it's as easy to project Reed as the #3 TE in FF as it is anyone else. In PPR leagues even that tier could get blurry quickly.

I don't know man, I just get the impression that if Reed was putting up the exact same numbers in the exact same situation but he was 6'6" or had run a 4.5 in shorts you would have a different take. I apologize if that's off base.

 

[tone1oc]

I believe that even if he "has room to improve his craft for sure" like I said, these improvements won't mark a huge uptick in his current production.

That's really the dichotomy in the discussion.

Leaving the discussion of how "special" his physical talents are out of the equation....

If he improves, why would his production not be expected to improve? Do you simply believe his situation is as good as it could possibly be and that the Skins just won't utilize the TE spot any more than they do despite that projected improvement by Reed?

I have no clue where Reed will end up stacking up in comparison to his peers headed into 2014, let alone his historical rank amongst TE's. I just disagree that he is at his ceiling as a rookie. I think it's an incredibly difficult position for a collegiate player to transition to at the NFL level, and when a rookie is putting up the kind of rookie season Reed is, especially given his overall inexperience at the position, that it certainly warrants optimism.

I do agree that his size could limit his red zone utilization in comparison to Gronk/Graham but after those two I think it's as easy to project Reed as the #3 TE in FF as it is anyone else. In PPR leagues even that tier could get blurry quickly.

If I'm muddying my argument, I really do apologize. I really just want to make it clear that my interpretation of his ceiling for the purposes of this argument is based on the premise that he is going to get X better because his breakout came as a rookie. The value of X some of you are giving is high for me, because the historical data doesn't mean much to me in modern TE context.

This is not to say that X can't happen, just I'm not there with my evaluation. As I've conceded, I very well could be, and hope I'm wrong. But it is more than fair (and dare I say fun) to argue if this guy is a great player.

And when I say great, I mean league winning great like Graham or Gronk. Maybe that's an unfair bar for Reed because he's a rookie, but nonetheless that's where its at for me.

 

[CoachJankySpanky]

I'm a little bummed that I didn't see his potential and therefore don't own him. I see his potential ceiling as being right outside elite status. Of course, with elite status being Gronk and Graham, no TE can ever be expected to join that tier. I'm a firm believer in mining my own talent at the TE position, so therefore would not look to pay the prices in order to acquire him. Without going into detail and making a cool story bro post, I have done very well in mining TE prospects. Reed just didn't fit my criteria in what I look for in the prospects I roster. We all have our hits and misses based on what we look for in prospects and Reed's success will make me adjust my thinking some so I don't miss out on the next prospect like him. Kudos to those owners who saw it and proactively picked him up before his success.

 

[tone1oc]

I'm a little bummed that I didn't see his potential and therefore don't own him. I see his potential ceiling as being right outside elite status. Of course, with elite status being Gronk and Graham, no TE can ever be expected to join that tier. I'm a firm believer in mining my own talent at the TE position, so therefore would not look to pay the prices in order to acquire him. Without going into detail and making a cool story bro post, I have done very well in mining TE prospects. Reed just didn't fit my criteria in what I look for in the prospects I roster. We all have our hits and misses based on what we look for in prospects and Reed's success will make me adjust my thinking some so I don't miss out on the next prospect like him. Kudos to those owners who saw it and proactively picked him up before his success.

Cool story bro

There is a lot of good young TEs, its going to be fun to see who separates themselves from an ever improving TE crop.

 

[Sabertooth]

In the superflex I'm in I scooped him off the wire after where I had only Gonzo and Jared Cook. After Cook's week 1 outbreak faded into the sunset I knew I was going to need a long term replacement for Gronk next year. Kelce was rostered, still like him a lot though. Reed was still sitting there in Week 3 so I pounced. Glad I did because he has pretty much moved into my lineup over Gonzo, which is amazing considering that Gonzo is a HOF player who is still in the top 10 at his position. I just can't find a way to start him.

 

[treat88]

If I'm muddying my argument, I really do apologize. I really just want to make it clear that my interpretation of his ceiling for the purposes of this argument is based on the premise that he is going to get X better because his breakout came as a rookie. The value of X some of you are giving is high for me, because the historical data doesn't mean much to me in modern TE context.

This is not to say that X can't happen, just I'm not there with my evaluation. As I've conceded, I very well could be, and hope I'm wrong. But it is more than fair (and dare I say fun) to argue if this guy is a great player.

I think this is fair enough. I get what you are saying. Just a couple thoughts.

I don't know when the value of X would ever be higher than in a rookie season, when in theory the most difficult part of the NFL transition is happening. So, if this is his baseline, is it fair to call it a breakout?

The game has certainly evolved, but his rookie stats outpace all of his modern peers rookie stats with the exception of Gronks TD rate so there is that for an apples to apples comparison.

I can't set the bar for great rookie TE production at Gronk/Graham's current level of production...that's not reasonable. It took them a couple of seasons to be viewed as they are now. It will be interesting to see where Reed is at mid 2014 for sure.

 

[tone1oc]

If I'm muddying my argument, I really do apologize. I really just want to make it clear that my interpretation of his ceiling for the purposes of this argument is based on the premise that he is going to get X better because his breakout came as a rookie. The value of X some of you are giving is high for me, because the historical data doesn't mean much to me in modern TE context.

This is not to say that X can't happen, just I'm not there with my evaluation. As I've conceded, I very well could be, and hope I'm wrong. But it is more than fair (and dare I say fun) to argue if this guy is a great player.

I think this is fair enough. I get what you are saying. Just a couple thoughts.

I don't know when the value of X would ever be higher than in a rookie season, when in theory the most difficult part of the NFL transition is happening. So, if this is his baseline, is it fair to call it a breakout?

The game has certainly evolved, but his rookie stats outpace all of his modern peers rookie stats with the exception of Gronks TD rate so there is that for an apples to apples comparison.

I can't set the bar for great rookie TE production at Gronk/Graham's current level of production...that's not reasonable. It took them a couple of seasons to be viewed as they are now. It will be interesting to see where Reed is at mid 2014 for sure.

He has definitely broke out in his rookie season. He is a locked in top 5ish guy right now.

The past few years I've been able to have much success in the leagues I have been able to get Jimmy Graham, because he is like a game genie for fantasy football. Where else can you plug in a guy in your lineup every week and expect a +5 to +10 pt diff vs. contemporaries that are very good.

This is a major reason I have this rather picky view of great TEs.

Because as great of a week as Jordan Reed has this week (18.2 in PPR/12.2 in non-PPR) if he is going against my Jimmy Graham I still feel confident about picking up 5 points in that match-up.

I have Jimmy Graham, Reed & Wright in one dyno, and would LOVE Reed to emerge as the next TE I can plug in every week and expect plus matchups regardless of defense or counterpart. I'd then be able to flip Graham for another elite piece.

 

[Adam Harstad]

The Skins stated they saw Garcon as a WR1. They paid him like a WR1 and he's performing like a WR1. I mean he's not doing it in the traditional sense lining up wide and beating people deep but he is still getting it done by doing what they are asking him to do.

If they brought somebody in like Nicks or Blackmon you don't think Reed's usage/targets go down? That's crazy talk to me.

Again... Calvin Johnson, Justin Blackmon, Vincent Jackson, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Pierre Garcon. Which one of these names does not belong?

If Washington brought in a receiver with a pulse, I'd expect Garcon to remain the WR1, but drop down more into the Josh Gordon, Demaryius Thomas, Randall Cobb, Victor Cruz, Desean Jackson target range (read: around 8.5-9.5 targets per game). Washington also has a *LOT* of dead weight targets to redistribute before it starts cutting into Reed's workload. Hankerson and Moss are averaging over 10 targets a game between them. Say Washington brings in a Jeremy Maclin. They could easily give Maclin 7-8 targets per game without touching any of Reed's. Now, if they bring in Justin Blackmon, Reed might get squeezed out a bit. This assumes Justin Blackmon even plays next year, and that he's available if he does, and that Washington's interested if he is, and that Washington can afford him if they are. That's a lot of assumptions. If Washington traded for Vincent Jackson, that'd probably hurt Reed, too. Hakeem Nicks wouldn't be too much of a threat to Reed's role- Nicks hasn't topped 9 targets per game since 2010. He's just not a target hog like some of these other guys.

Again, Reed's getting 7 targets a game. He has just one double-digit target game. His role is still fairly modest. There's no reason for Washington to start chipping away at it to accommodate a hypothetical new guy who may or may not (but probably will not) wind up being as good as Reed already is.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Moreover, why is Jordan Reed the only guy who gets this criticism leveled at him? How come nobody says "Sure, Keenan Allen looks fantastic, but San Diego's WRs are horrible right now. What happens when they bring in some more weapons?"

We know what happens when San Diego brings in more weapons. What happens is that Allen keeps getting his, because Allen is fantastic. Similarly, we know what happens when Washington brings in more weapons. What happens is that Reed keeps getting his, because Reed is fantastic.

 

[Adam Harstad]

I think it has zero to do with historical comps. you don't need historical comps to upgrade your long-term projection of Reed. the game is totally different now, the tight end position is used differently, the rules are different, and the athletes are different. looking up Mike Ditka's and Kellen Winslow's stats are a waste of time when talking about fantasy football and Jordan Reed. think about someone talking about Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton's stats when evaluating Andrew Luck and EJ Manuel and how we'd all think that was ridiculous because of how different things are now

Things haven't changed that much. Some stats (YPA, for one), have remained pretty constant over the years.

Besides, I'm not saying "hey, let's just go out and compare Jordan Reed to Mike Ditka". I'm saying "hey, let's compare Jordan Reed to every single tight end who has played since Mike Ditka, including Mike Ditka". Yes, I compared him to Ditka. I also compared him to Graham, Gronk, Pitta, Cleeland, Cameron, Gates, Gonzalez, and any number of other guys from a much more similar era. You want me to use more specific eras when making comps? That's fine, but "more yards than anyone since 1961" also means, by definition, "more yards than anyone since 1990", or "more yards than anyone since 2005", or whatever era you want to limit your comparison to. That's the nice thing about broad catch-all historical comps- they can easily be tightened down to a specific era simply by removing anyone from outside of that era.

 

[Adam Harstad]

"Lots more to the craft than just route running"

I never said "route running" was the only aspect, we were using it for discussion. I believe that even if he "has room to improve his craft for sure" like I said, these improvements won't mark a huge uptick in his current production.

"You've said he's a rook that's already playing like a polished vet but yet has room to improve his craft....but at the same time believe he is at his ceiling in terms of production?"

I said that he is closer to his ceiling than some areprojecting, based largely on his "historic" rookie season for a TE.


"You've indicated that his production is simply a function of opportunity and volume...but believe he has shown no special talent to warrant that opportunity?"

Again, I've never indicated that his production is simply a function of opportunity and volume. Since when is good speed, smooth, precise route running with really good hands equate to he is just a function of high targets? I think you are getting this from my question as to what you all see in his game that will improve and take him to the next level.

I'm not seeing anyone projecting him for anything. I don't see anyone suggesting that he's going to be a 1200/12 guy, or a perennial top-3 TE. In fact, the only real projecting I've seen so far in this thread has been along the lines of "well, he's probably not going to be Graham or Gronk".

I'm just pointing out how fantastic Reed's season is. If this is his ceiling, then so be it- like I said, his ceiling would not look out of place in the middle of any HoF TE's career. If his ceiling is "Tony Gonzalez's 5th best season" and not "Tony Gonzalez's best season", that's not really all that damning- I'd pay a lot for a TE like that.

I think a lot of this argument comes from seeing Reed's supporters saying "his production has been amazing!" and reading an implied "... and it's only going to get better!" into it. There's no question Reed's production COULD get better from here, but I don't really see anyone in here projecting that he's going to routinely be beating the 88/1000/6 that he's on pace to put up this year.

 

[Adam Harstad]

He has definitely broke out in his rookie season. He is a locked in top 5ish guy right now.

The past few years I've been able to have much success in the leagues I have been able to get Jimmy Graham, because he is like a game genie for fantasy football. Where else can you plug in a guy in your lineup every week and expect a +5 to +10 pt diff vs. contemporaries that are very good.

This is a major reason I have this rather picky view of great TEs.

Because as great of a week as Jordan Reed has this week (18.2 in PPR/12.2 in non-PPR) if he is going against my Jimmy Graham I still feel confident about picking up 5 points in that match-up.

I have Jimmy Graham, Reed & Wright in one dyno, and would LOVE Reed to emerge as the next TE I can plug in every week and expect plus matchups regardless of defense or counterpart. I'd then be able to flip Graham for another elite piece.

So it sounds like your criticism of Reed is "he's not Jimmy Graham". That's fair enough, and I agree. In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread agrees. So what's the argument about? I don't think anyone's saying he's Gronk or Graham.

 

[johnjohn]

need more diversity in this thread, seems like its mainly one or two guys preaching

 

[tone1oc]

I'm not saying Reed might not be special. I'm saying the jury is still out for me. Hopefully he is I own him.

So what exactly are you saying when you say "the jury is still out"? Because I'm clearly confused...

This is the post that started the whole is he special debate. I'm not sure if this qualifies as projecting as its statement that he already is. Bottom line is I've been getting beat up for arguing that he is not special (yet). So clearly some people are projecting in some form and definitely defending his special-ness.

So if you're going to judge a TE on being special you have to compare him amongst the special TEs he is playing against.

Adam, I understand you are not saying he's Graham/Gronk type guy and I think we are close on our evaluation's in terms of him being a top 5ish guy. So there really is no debate between you and I.

Note: Jordan Reed is in fact special to his mother.

 

[drew1976]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

 

[SeanTaylor21]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

 

[Otis]

Really solid debate in here about whether Jessica Alba is an 8 or a 9. How bout we all just agree she's hot and move on to something more productive?

 

[werdnoynek]

Really solid debate in here about whether Jessica Alba is an 8 or a 9. How bout we all just agree she's hot and move on to something more productive?

 

[FUBAR]

Really solid debate in here about whether Jessica Alba is an 8 or a 9. How bout we all just agree she's hot and move on to something more productive?

She's no Heather Graham.

 

[bostonfred]

I own reed in keeper and redraft but not dynasty. I'm ok with that. I agree with tone's assessment. I think reed may fllirt with big time production here and there, but he's not super elite upper tier like jimmy graaham anad gronk. That doesn't mean he can't be a stud te, it just means he's one of those guys who will get taken in the fourth round most years. Maybe after his best season he gets taken in the second or third, more likely not. In his weaker seasons, if he falls into the pool of tight ends who go in the fifth, sixth, seventh it wouldn't be that surprising. Kind of like witten. Is that a horrible knock on him? Of course not. But he's not some dominant talent who has an easy path to upside like some rookies. He has the opportunity that most rookies don't get, his recent emergence seems to correlate with rg3s improvement, which means that this is about as good as his conditions will get, and he isn't some raw talent with lots of room to improve skillwise from year one to two, he's a skilled player with good but not quite elite talent who seems to be near his upside. So he's a guy you really like having, but not quite a guy you'd trade multiple firsts for in dynasty. This seems like a great sell high opportunity for his owners.

 

[Adam Harstad]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

For starters, Gresham was TE11 and TE13 in the last two seasons, so I'd say it was an "above-average production area" for the Bengals. Jermaine Gresham averaged 4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that had Green, Jones, and Sanu). Fred Davis averaged... 3.4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that did not). If Fred Davis "put up numbers" last year with Griffin, then Jermaine Gresham likewise "put up numbers" in Cincy.

Second, TE was never a solid production area for the Chiefs before they got Gonzalez. It was never a solid production area for the Chargers before they got Gates. It was never a solid production area for the Cowboys before they got Witten. It was never a solid production area for the Saints before they got Graham (unless, like Yahoo, you consider Marques Colston a TE ). It was never a solid production area for the Patriots before they got Hernandez/Gronk.

I'm not saying that Tyler Eifert is the next Gonzo/Gates/Gronk/Graham/Hernandez/Witten. I'm saying that if you believe Eifert is the next G/G/G/G/H/W, it doesn't much matter what his team's production at the TE position was like before it acquired him.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Here's your mind-boggling Jordan Reed stat of the week:

I mentioned that Reed's 5.5 receptions per game is easily the best mark in history among rookie TEs, but I haven't really gone into how huge Reed's advantage is over the rest of the field. Only four rookie tight ends have even topped 4 receptions per game. The gap between Jordan Reed (5.5 rec/game) and the 7th place finisher (Rob Awalt, with 3.5 rec/game) is the same as the gap between Awalt and the guy in 128th place.

 

[lbouchard]

If anyone has a PPF subscription, would they mind sharing on what percentage of his snaps Reed has stayed in to block?

 

[werdnoynek]

If anyone has a PPF subscription, would they mind sharing on what percentage of his snaps Reed has stayed in to block?

He's played 350 snaps - 224 (64%) have been passing plays, 109 (31%) have been run blocking plays, 16 (4%) have been pass blocking plays. He also had 1 snap that was a run play.

Shockingly he's only played about 58% of the snaps... but he's currently seeing about 79% (week 10).

 

[FUBAR]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

For starters, Gresham was TE11 and TE13 in the last two seasons, so I'd say it was an "above-average production area" for the Bengals. Jermaine Gresham averaged 4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that had Green, Jones, and Sanu). Fred Davis averaged... 3.4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that did not). If Fred Davis "put up numbers" last year with Griffin, then Jermaine Gresham likewise "put up numbers" in Cincy.

Second, TE was never a solid production area for the Chiefs before they got Gonzalez. It was never a solid production area for the Chargers before they got Gates. It was never a solid production area for the Cowboys before they got Witten. It was never a solid production area for the Saints before they got Graham (unless, like Yahoo, you consider Marques Colston a TE ). It was never a solid production area for the Patriots before they got Hernandez/Gronk.

I'm not saying that Tyler Eifert is the next Gonzo/Gates/Gronk/Graham/Hernandez/Witten. I'm saying that if you believe Eifert is the next G/G/G/G/H/W, it doesn't much matter what his team's production at the TE position was like before it acquired him.

Never?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

For starters, Gresham was TE11 and TE13 in the last two seasons, so I'd say it was an "above-average production area" for the Bengals. Jermaine Gresham averaged 4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that had Green, Jones, and Sanu). Fred Davis averaged... 3.4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that did not). If Fred Davis "put up numbers" last year with Griffin, then Jermaine Gresham likewise "put up numbers" in Cincy.

Second, TE was never a solid production area for the Chiefs before they got Gonzalez. It was never a solid production area for the Chargers before they got Gates. It was never a solid production area for the Cowboys before they got Witten. It was never a solid production area for the Saints before they got Graham (unless, like Yahoo, you consider Marques Colston a TE ). It was never a solid production area for the Patriots before they got Hernandez/Gronk.

I'm not saying that Tyler Eifert is the next Gonzo/Gates/Gronk/Graham/Hernandez/Witten. I'm saying that if you believe Eifert is the next G/G/G/G/H/W, it doesn't much matter what his team's production at the TE position was like before it acquired him.

Never?

Oof

 

[Adam Harstad]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

For starters, Gresham was TE11 and TE13 in the last two seasons, so I'd say it was an "above-average production area" for the Bengals. Jermaine Gresham averaged 4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that had Green, Jones, and Sanu). Fred Davis averaged... 3.4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that did not). If Fred Davis "put up numbers" last year with Griffin, then Jermaine Gresham likewise "put up numbers" in Cincy.

Second, TE was never a solid production area for the Chiefs before they got Gonzalez. It was never a solid production area for the Chargers before they got Gates. It was never a solid production area for the Cowboys before they got Witten. It was never a solid production area for the Saints before they got Graham (unless, like Yahoo, you consider Marques Colston a TE ). It was never a solid production area for the Patriots before they got Hernandez/Gronk.

I'm not saying that Tyler Eifert is the next Gonzo/Gates/Gronk/Graham/Hernandez/Witten. I'm saying that if you believe Eifert is the next G/G/G/G/H/W, it doesn't much matter what his team's production at the TE position was like before it acquired him.

Never?

I was using parallelism to mirror the initial post. Somehow I doubt the OP would have been too high on Antonio Gates coming in based on the fact that that Kellen Winslow guy had been pretty good 20 years, 10 starting QBs, and 7 head coaches prior.

 

[SeanTaylor21]

I traded Reed for Eifert before Reed completely started blowing up.

I'd probably still do the deal today if I could. Reed is better short term, but Eifert will be amongst the elite soon as well and I like Eiferts ceiling a lot more.

Still smarts to see Reed putting up the numbers he is though...

Please explain how Eifert will be amongst the elite soon? TE has never been a solid production area for the Bengals while Fred Davis and Jordan Reed have both put up numbers in the 2 years under RG3.

For starters, Gresham was TE11 and TE13 in the last two seasons, so I'd say it was an "above-average production area" for the Bengals. Jermaine Gresham averaged 4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that had Green, Jones, and Sanu). Fred Davis averaged... 3.4 receptions for 46 yards last season (in an offense that did not). If Fred Davis "put up numbers" last year with Griffin, then Jermaine Gresham likewise "put up numbers" in Cincy.

Second, TE was never a solid production area for the Chiefs before they got Gonzalez. It was never a solid production area for the Chargers before they got Gates. It was never a solid production area for the Cowboys before they got Witten. It was never a solid production area for the Saints before they got Graham (unless, like Yahoo, you consider Marques Colston a TE ). It was never a solid production area for the Patriots before they got Hernandez/Gronk.

I'm not saying that Tyler Eifert is the next Gonzo/Gates/Gronk/Graham/Hernandez/Witten. I'm saying that if you believe Eifert is the next G/G/G/G/H/W, it doesn't much matter what his team's production at the TE position was like before it acquired him.

Never?

I was using parallelism to mirror the initial post. Somehow I doubt the OP would have been too high on Antonio Gates coming in based on the fact that that Kellen Winslow guy had been pretty good 20 years, 10 starting QBs, and 7 head coaches prior.

I hear you and understand your points but I guess I haven't seen enough from Eifert to get the sense he's an elite TE. I live near Cincy, by the way, and have watched essentially every Bengals game. What do you think sets Eifert a part from Reed? Situation? Skill set? Opportunity?

Edit: I appreciate your researched and we'll thought posts, seriously curious about what I'm missing on Eifert and what I may be selectively viewing on Reed.

 

[tone1oc]

In other historic TE news..

"Jermaine Gresham is on pace to join Hall of Famer Mike Ditka as only TEs in NFL history w/ 50+ receptions in each of first 4 seasons."

I think people should take a step back and appreciate the unprecedented success of Gresham's first four seasons.

 

[Faust]

Jordan Reed: Rainmaker

Excerpt:

One of our favorite young players to emerge during the season has been Jordan Reed. The Redskins tight end has spiced up Washington's offense and given Robert Griffin III a dynamic weapon who Chris Wesseling compared to the onfield version of Aaron Hernandez.

Reed entered Week 10 catching 79 percent of his targets, the highest rate among any receiver or tight end in the league. He's third in the NFL in yards per route run, behind just Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis, per Pro Football Focus.

Reed hauled in six catches for 62 yards and a touchdown in Thursday's loss to the Minnesota Vikings, but let's look at Reed's tape from Washington's previous game against the Chargers. We saw the rookie used all over the field against San Diego, showing an ability to find the first-down marker, get open in tight spaces and contribute to the read-option:

Coaches film: Jordan Reed rushes for 18 yards

 

[T with T]

In other historic TE news..

"Jermaine Gresham is on pace to join Hall of Famer Mike Ditka as only TEs in NFL history w/ 50+ receptions in each of first 4 seasons."

I think people should take a step back and appreciate the unprecedented success of Gresham's first four seasons.

wow he has done that Very Quietly........ almost as quiet as a church mouse wow.

 

[FUBAR]

Jordan Reed: Rainmaker

Excerpt:

Reed entered Week 10 catching 79 percent of his targets, the highest rate among any receiver or tight end in the league. He's third in the NFL in yards per route run, behind just Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis, per Pro Football Focus.

That's downright impressive. RG3 throws a fairly catchable ball, but one of the most important criteria in assessing a TE for fantasy is his hands. Dude has a very bright future, even if he isn't Gronk or Graham.

I assume your 2nd stat is TE only?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

I don't think I've ever seen so much controversy (although admittedly only from a couple of posters) surrounding an unquestionably good rookie player.

And for anyone who doesn't watch a lot of Redskins games, let me put that league-leading 79% receiving ratio into context: he's constantly making difficult receptions in important situations. These are not wide-open check-down type passes. He's making plays, and difficult ones, and not dropping many balls at all. More importantly, he's making contested catches on targets that wouldn't even count as drops if he didn't make the play.

 

[Faust]

Jordan Reed: Rainmaker

Excerpt:

Reed entered Week 10 catching 79 percent of his targets, the highest rate among any receiver or tight end in the league. He's third in the NFL in yards per route run, behind just Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis, per Pro Football Focus.

That's downright impressive. RG3 throws a fairly catchable ball, but one of the most important criteria in assessing a TE for fantasy is his hands. Dude has a very bright future, even if he isn't Gronk or Graham.

I assume your 2nd stat is TE only?

I clicked on the link to see the following clarification:

Pro Football Focus‏@PFF 12 Nov

For TEs Vernon Davis leads the way with 2.84 yards per route run ahead of Jimmy Graham (2.76) in 2nd. 3rd spot belongs to Jordan Reed (2.25)

 

[JFS171]

Jordan Reed: Rainmaker

Excerpt:

Reed entered Week 10 catching 79 percent of his targets, the highest rate among any receiver or tight end in the league. He's third in the NFL in yards per route run, behind just Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis, per Pro Football Focus.

That's downright impressive. RG3 throws a fairly catchable ball, but one of the most important criteria in assessing a TE for fantasy is his hands. Dude has a very bright future, even if he isn't Gronk or Graham.

I assume your 2nd stat is TE only?

The yards per route run stat is TE only.

 

[JFS171]

Jordan Reed: Rainmaker

Excerpt:

One of our favorite young players to emerge during the season has been Jordan Reed. The Redskins tight end has spiced up Washington's offense and given Robert Griffin III a dynamic weapon who Chris Wesseling compared to the onfield version of Aaron Hernandez.

Reed entered Week 10 catching 79 percent of his targets, the highest rate among any receiver or tight end in the league. He's third in the NFL in yards per route run, behind just Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis, per Pro Football Focus.

Reed hauled in six catches for 62 yards and a touchdown in Thursday's loss to the Minnesota Vikings, but let's look at Reed's tape from Washington's previous game against the Chargers. We saw the rookie used all over the field against San Diego, showing an ability to find the first-down marker, get open in tight spaces and contribute to the read-option:

Meh - he's no Jimmy Graham. Therefore, he's nothing special.

#championshiplogic

 

[tone1oc]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Are you?

 

[tone1oc]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Are you?

I'm just having fun, lighten up francis

 

[JackReacher]

I used to like this thread

 

[JFS171]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

Honestly, are we talking about the same Jimmy Graham who posted the following rookie season?

15 Games - 31 Receptions on 43 Targets (72%), 356 yards, 5 TDs

Cause... hate to break it to you, but Reed's already surpassed that in 8 games played: 44 Receptions on 58 Targets (76%), 487 yards, 3 TDs

Reed, as a rookie, headed into his 9th game of his NFL career this weekend isn't equivalent with current Jimmy Graham. I'm not sure anyone else on the planet is equivalent to current Jimmy Graham, yet that's the bar. And we're just to expect that Reed is what he is, 8 games into the NFL, and 2.5 years into playing the position... just doesn't add up to me.

At this point, having read this entire thread... I guess I just don't agree with you - at all.

 

[tone1oc]

I think its clear that not many agree with me, and I'm fine with that. I did my best to argue my point, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I'm not trying to argue anymore just figured I'd try to add a little fun to the tread. Some of you are so thin skinned, especially for a 'shark pool'

 

[JFS171]

I think its clear that not many agree with me, and I'm fine with that. I did my best to argue my point, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I'm not trying to argue anymore just figured I'd try to add a little fun to the tread. Some of you are so thin skinned, especially for a 'shark pool'

No I'm honestly trying to understand you here... perhaps I should reread the last few pages. You said Jimmy Graham was what you would call "a special rookie, bro."

Well Reed's been better... but Jimmy can substantially improve and Reed can't?

 

[MCguidance]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Are you?

I'm just having fun, lighten up francis

Don't take this wrong way but you should know this is annoying, not funny.

 

[tone1oc]

Honestly, that's what I call a special rookie bro. Such a riveting player, I honestly copied and pasted his rookie stats to word, saved on my hard drive, backed it up on a jump drive, drove to the bank, put the jump drive in the safe deposit box, and will leave it there until my kids turn about 12 (when they can actually state their age, and ask what it is I'm showing them), when I will pick it up, put it in an old USB drive reader and relay this special rookie info to them and tell them, "kids, this is what a special rookie should look like...not like the rookies of your generation.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Are you?

I'm just having fun, lighten up francis

Don't take this wrong way but you should know this is annoying, not funny.

I'm sorry that that irritated you. I'm hoping that someone let out a smirk at least.

Looks like I'm a thread ruiner. I wont post in here again unless someone types my screen name three times.

 

[Rove!]

:milkcarton:

 

[ConnSKINS26]

:milkcarton:

:concussed:

 

[BigSteelThrill]

:milkcarton:

:concussed:

Correct.

Jordan Reed out Sun Nov 17, 03:10 PM

Washington Redskins TE Jordan Reed (concussion) left the Week 11 game with a concussion and will not return.

 

[lbouchard]

:milkcarton:

:concussed:

Correct.

Jordan Reed out Sun Nov 17, 03:10 PM

Washington Redskins TE Jordan Reed (concussion) left the Week 11 game with a concussion and will not return.

I assume it was on his one catch? Not sure but I think that was middle of 2nd quarter. Anyone know when he officially left?