I see the point, I just think it is a silly one.
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Non-horrible Sandusky thread to discuss PSU sanctions (1 Viewer)
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JaxBill
Footballguy
I don't think it's lost on us. It's just that in this case, not only is the HC responsible dead, the main perpetrator is already facing lifelong jailtime, the former president and AD are facing serious felony charges. Outside of McQueary and the BoT, don't know of any responsible parties are there at all to punish.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Great post. I read this article a while back, and it completely changed my thinking on the NCAA.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I don't know enough about the inner workings of the NCAA rules ( and most of them are stupid anyway) to make a a good argument for or against in a courtroom. I would assume that there is enough wiggle room in the by-laws that they can cover this with something.
Given that Penn State signed off on this they either have taken the position that there is something that is there, or that they just didn't feel the fight would be worth it in the end. But, there are instances in the emails (from what I've read) in the Freeh report that the football program didn't report every violation, even minor ones. If that is true, the conspiracy, for lack of a better phrase, to do that over a long period of time should certainly be something the NCAA has the power to hammer.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Beyond somehow artificially altering a record so somebody else is now the "career wins leader," No. If you can say that enabling Sandusky somehow gave PSU an unfair competitive advantage on the field in those games, then I'd say that I get it...but it's not like that was the case. This had nothing to do with on-field competition.
netnalp
Footballguy
Glad they did.This was too huge of a scandal for the NCAA to act just on past precedent. They couldn't let PSU get off because the NCAA hadn't put in rules against this kind of stuff. No one would have predicted something like this could happen.As I understand it both the NCAA Executive Committee and Division I Board of Directors granted Mark Emmert authority to act in this manner, unanimously. Doesn't sound like Emmert is overstepping his bounds to me.
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Kick them out of the Big 10 is my hope...those penalties were not harsh enough IMO, so hopefully the Big 10 will drop the hammer.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
It's crushing to the players who went to school there for the last 15 years.
jwb
Footballguy
Well, we know who won. But that will fade, and the record book is forever.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
That article was posted in an earlier college football thread somewhere on here and it was a wonderful read. I'm really amused to think of Sonny Vaccaro calling all those college presidents "whores" to their faces and them pretty much sitting there thinking, "yeah, he's right."
mad sweeney
Footballguy
USC didn't even have anything to do with it. It was an outside person who wanted to be in business and/or represent Bush he left SC. The house issue had nothing to do with getting or keeping Bush at USC, yet the still got the postseason ban.
cheese
Footballguy
I think they nailed it personally. Very severe and makes a strong statement to anyone from PSU who was hoping this would just go away. They managed to do that while going out of their way to limit the damage done to current players at PSU. They also leave the football program alive so they still have a path forward and can remain a key part of the community right away.A+ from me.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Only the really dumb ones.
jwb
Footballguy
But it had everything to do with "football - and the money it makes - is more important than kids". This essentially says, no, it isn't.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am certain that, before taking this action, the NCAA consulted their in-house attorneys and asked, "Can we do this?" and they received one of two answers:1. Yes, it's within the bylaws.2. We don't know, but it doesn't matter, because Penn State will never challenge.I don't know enough about the inner workings of the NCAA rules ( and most of them are stupid anyway) to make a a good argument for or against in a courtroom. I would assume that there is enough wiggle room in the by-laws that they can cover this with something.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
3. Probably not, but if we get the buy-in from Penn State and the other member institutions, we can.I am certain that, before taking this action, the NCAA consulted their in-house attorneys and asked, "Can we do this?" and they received one of two answers:1. Yes, it's within the bylaws.2. We don't know, but it doesn't matter, because Penn State will never challenge.I don't know enough about the inner workings of the NCAA rules ( and most of them are stupid anyway) to make a a good argument for or against in a courtroom. I would assume that there is enough wiggle room in the by-laws that they can cover this with something.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
If the NCAA hadn't acted, how would that mean that PSU "got off?" They canned their President and AD -- both may be in prison this time next year -- and the university is facing tens of millions of dollars in civil liability. Reading these threads, it's as if people aren't even aware of the existence of the courts.
BigJohn
Footballguy
The smart ones.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You don't think Penn State players that attended in the 00s, you don't think those former players feel the sting today a little bit? I'm surprised you would say this.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
You can read the initial letter that the NCAA sent to PSU here, with quotes from the bylaws: http://www.psu.edu/ur/2011/NCAA.pdfThe bylaws include about provisions on ethical conduct. I think created enough space for the NCAA to act.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Obviously. This was done solely as a punishment to Joe Paterno. Some may think it is lame but it does knock him down as the winning-est coach, something that was very important to him.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Of course - and both are basically what we deal with every day in the law. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is right, just or in the statute, but what will someone actually challenge - that balancing act becomes just as important to the law as the actual law being discussed (or in this case the rules).There is also the argument we all hate to deal with in court, and that is the spirit of the rule. If the NCAA exists for what is says it exists for, and the rules it has written are there for the reasons they say they are, then what happened here has to be covered under the spirit of those laws. Forget the rape itself - the institutional cover up based on the football program and its legacy and towering power over the university itself is something that has to be addressed somehow I think. For over a decade the football program acted awfully solely to protect itself and the unviersity allowed it to happen. On some level I don't see that as anything different then what SMU did.I am certain that, before taking this action, the NCAA consulted their in-house attorneys and asked, "Can we do this?" and they received one of two answers:1. Yes, it's within the bylaws.2. We don't know, but it doesn't matter, because Penn State will never challenge.I don't know enough about the inner workings of the NCAA rules ( and most of them are stupid anyway) to make a a good argument for or against in a courtroom. I would assume that there is enough wiggle room in the by-laws that they can cover this with something.
koby925
Footballguy
No. My wall street journal alert on the press conference focused more on Joepa now not being the winningest coach than it did on the other sanctions. And I'm sure the media coverage and Joepa apologists alike will be focusing mainly on that topic. Which, in my opinion, is much less important than changing the focus and culture of the school. Who cares about Joepa's win total? What purpose does that serve? Would there really be people out there that would say yeah all this terrible stuff happened but at least Joepa is still the winningest coach, woohoo. I agreed with Ray and Emerrett that the NCAA has authority to ensure that an institution is operating with integrity and responsibility and the other sanctions were warranted to change the wrongs of the culture that was breeded at PSU. But taking away past wins inherently feels like (to me at least) that there should be competitive reasons for doing so. As awful as the situation was, it wasn't a matter of gaining a competitive advantage so I am struggling to see the point of taking wins away. It only seems to be a spiteful measure pointed towards Joepa's legacy just because they felt like it. And now everyone will focus on that.
fsufan
Footballguy
how many did they lose
People keep saying this...but it simply isn't true. Reporting the problem in 1998 would have cost PSU little, if any money.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I work with someone who is still hanging on to the Civil War or War of Northern Aggression as he would say. Same thing will happen here it will always be an asterisk thing.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Bill O'Brien is probably like 
this morning.
this morning.Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period. Why does the media keep saying 10 scholarships per year when this statement says 20 Total Scholarships. Kind of lost here is it 10 or 20 and are there different levels of scholarships. I know in some sports you can get a partial scholarship.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
In essence, they've don't exist. The only punishments that have any meaning for most people involve the football program. That's been the reality from the beginning of this story.
cheese
Footballguy
You know they used a defensive coordinator in 1999 that should have already been in jail right?
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I think most people, with the exception of stupid fans, move on from those events. Everybody knows what happened on the field in those games. And lol at cappy, thumping his chest because the guy ahead of his guy got disqualified.
BigJohn
Footballguy
You are wrong.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Do you think Jerry Sandusky cares more about today's NCAA sanctions than his prison sentence? Do you think Spanier cares about this more than his own possible prosecution?
yellowdog
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
What?? The prosecutor declined to prosecute in 98 when the info was brought to him.
Can't believe people are saying this is not enough.
This is a very significant penalty to the school in terms of money, prestige, and ability to recruit/compete over the next few years. It takes a swipe at JoePa by knocking off the wins - which I am sure was the only reason for vacating the wins back to '98.
This punishes the school and the program. The criminal course can punish the individuals.
This is a very significant penalty to the school in terms of money, prestige, and ability to recruit/compete over the next few years. It takes a swipe at JoePa by knocking off the wins - which I am sure was the only reason for vacating the wins back to '98.
This punishes the school and the program. The criminal course can punish the individuals.
GeauxTigers
Footballguy
They HAD to agree to the punishment in order to save face (or what's left of it's face) with the public. Good move on Penn State' part to except whatever punishment was given to them and move forward with the healing process.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
"Only football matters" ??
Short Corner
Footballguy
A handful of us think it was light.
G
Guest
Guest
Not sure, but I don't know if you can be on an academic scholarship and still play, or that scholarship counts towards your total. A few years ago a Nebraska player had to make the choice between playing football or a full-ride academic scholarship. He chose academics. Again, I could be wrong.Do you think Penn State wants to push the edge on NCAA violations now?
timschochet
Footballguy
No. Do you think Penn State fans and alumni care more about Sandusky's fate and Spanier's fate than they do about the NCAA sanctions?
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Agreed - but at what point do records become arbitrary? To me, a "record," is something that is set through actions, and not something that you can "adjust" as punishment. I mean, would people have been OK with Pete Rose having 1,000 hits stripped from him as a punishment for gambling? If the world's fattest man murdered someone, it'd be like Guinness saying "We're going to discredit him for 300 lbs, thus not making him the world's fattest man anymore."
I got nothing there. Very valid point...take the 1999 wins, but beyond that I still think it's grasping.
You really think people would have abandoned the program for outing Sandusky?I don't think so. It might have cost a handful of recruits that year, but would have had no lasting or significant damage.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
So your position is that this is really about punishing Penn State alumni and fans?
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm ok with it. No matter what they did it was going to either be not enough or too much. This whole situation is sad in the truest sense of the word. Given what we are dealing with here, and everyone that has paid any attention to this knows what happened - predator was allowed to continue his crimes because the football coach was too powerful, the football program too powerful and no one in power did anything to stop it - that the fact there are people actually demanding where in the NCAA rule book are the violations to allow a punishment here is on some level ridiculous. Do we really need a written rule on this for college athletics? IF that is where this is going, then the entirety of college athelics needs to be stopped for a few years for people to get their heads out of their collective asses.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
PSU Statement
The tragedy of child sexual abuse that occurred at our University altered the lives of innocent children. Today, as every day, our thoughts and prayers continue to be with the victims of Mr. Sandusky and all other victims of child abuse.
Against this backdrop, Penn State accepts the penalties and corrective actions announced today by the NCAA. With today's announcement and the action it requires of us, the University takes a significant step forward.
The NCAA ruling holds the University accountable for the failure of those in power to protect children and insists that all areas of the University community are held to the same high standards of honesty and integrity.
The NCAA also mandates that Penn State become a national leader to help victims of child sexual assault and to promote awareness across our nation. Specifically, the University will pay $12 million a year for the next five years into a special endowment created to fund programs for the detection, prevention and treatment of child abuse. This total of $60 million can never reduce the pain suffered by victims, but will help provide them hope and healing.
The NCAA penalty will also affect the football program. There is a four-year ban on all post-season games, including bowl games and the Big Ten Championship game, and a future reduction in the number of football scholarships that can be granted. We are grateful that the current student athletes are not prevented from participation because of the failures of leadership that occurred. Additionally the NCAA has vacated all wins of Penn State football from 1998-2011.
We also welcome the Athletics Integrity Agreement and the third-party monitor, who will be drilling into compliance and culture issues in intercollegiate athletics, in conjunction with the recommendations of the Freeh Report. Lastly a probationary period of five years will be imposed.
It is important to know we are entering a new chapter at Penn State and making necessary changes. We must create a culture in which people are not afraid to speak up, management is not compartmentalized, all are expected to demonstrate the highest ethical standards, and the operating philosophy is open, collegial, and collaborative.
Since receiving Judge Freeh's preliminary recommendations in January, the University has instituted several reforms. Today we accept the terms of the consent decree imposed by the NCAA. As Penn State embarks upon change and progress, this announcement helps to further define our course. It is with this compass that we will strive for a better tomorrow.
Penn State will move forward with a renewed sense of commitment to excellence and integrity in all aspects of our University. We continue to recognize the important role that intercollegiate athletics provides for our student athletes and the wider University community as we strive to appropriately balance academic and athletic accomplishments. Penn State will continue to be a world-class educational institution of which our students, faculty, staff and alumni can be justifiably proud.
The tragedy of child sexual abuse that occurred at our University altered the lives of innocent children. Today, as every day, our thoughts and prayers continue to be with the victims of Mr. Sandusky and all other victims of child abuse.
Against this backdrop, Penn State accepts the penalties and corrective actions announced today by the NCAA. With today's announcement and the action it requires of us, the University takes a significant step forward.
The NCAA ruling holds the University accountable for the failure of those in power to protect children and insists that all areas of the University community are held to the same high standards of honesty and integrity.
The NCAA also mandates that Penn State become a national leader to help victims of child sexual assault and to promote awareness across our nation. Specifically, the University will pay $12 million a year for the next five years into a special endowment created to fund programs for the detection, prevention and treatment of child abuse. This total of $60 million can never reduce the pain suffered by victims, but will help provide them hope and healing.
The NCAA penalty will also affect the football program. There is a four-year ban on all post-season games, including bowl games and the Big Ten Championship game, and a future reduction in the number of football scholarships that can be granted. We are grateful that the current student athletes are not prevented from participation because of the failures of leadership that occurred. Additionally the NCAA has vacated all wins of Penn State football from 1998-2011.
We also welcome the Athletics Integrity Agreement and the third-party monitor, who will be drilling into compliance and culture issues in intercollegiate athletics, in conjunction with the recommendations of the Freeh Report. Lastly a probationary period of five years will be imposed.
It is important to know we are entering a new chapter at Penn State and making necessary changes. We must create a culture in which people are not afraid to speak up, management is not compartmentalized, all are expected to demonstrate the highest ethical standards, and the operating philosophy is open, collegial, and collaborative.
Since receiving Judge Freeh's preliminary recommendations in January, the University has instituted several reforms. Today we accept the terms of the consent decree imposed by the NCAA. As Penn State embarks upon change and progress, this announcement helps to further define our course. It is with this compass that we will strive for a better tomorrow.
Penn State will move forward with a renewed sense of commitment to excellence and integrity in all aspects of our University. We continue to recognize the important role that intercollegiate athletics provides for our student athletes and the wider University community as we strive to appropriately balance academic and athletic accomplishments. Penn State will continue to be a world-class educational institution of which our students, faculty, staff and alumni can be justifiably proud.
Wrighteous Ray
Footballguy
Really? That strikes me as the dumbest argument of all.
