Well written and I kinda bought it but huge upset if he outplays Josh today
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Not undervalued - The most disrespected player is? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Soulfly3
- Start date
Well written and I kinda bought it but huge upset if he outplays Josh today
I've never been overly high on this guy for fantasy but I'm now starting to think someone who is disrespected is.....
Isiah Pachecho- Meager draft capital, different style that does not look smooth and idea that anyone can have success running on this team are reasons why I don't think he gets a lot of respect. I feel like Kareem Hunt was held in much higher esteem when he was with the Chiefs but their rushing production was similar, I mean real similar. They both exactly ran for 4.9 ypr in year one and 4.6 ypr in year two. Pachecho went for 1,765 on 375 carries and Hunt went for 2,151 on 453. 4.7 ypr for Pachecho and 4.74 for Hunt and I'd argue the offense during Hunt's time was more conducive to running success. Then as a pass catcher Pachecho has 90% catch rate and ZERO drops in his career. Depending on source Hunt had 6 drops his first two years, McKinnon has 5 or 6 over the last two years comparatively speaking though they both got about 35 more targets then him and it's fair to say his ypc was not great, but a lot to be said for that kind of realiablity especially on this team this year.
Plus beyond the stats he just seems to give off a energy boost.
Not trying to make a case he's better then Hunt. Trying to make a case taht Hunt was thought of as a really good RB who could go mulitiple places and continue to be a top RB in the league whereas Pachecho seems to be thought of as a product of the system.
I'd also nominate two of my Steelers.
Najee Harris- ok, he was not worth a late first but let's give the guy some credit. He's handled a big workload and has answered the bell in 51 out of 51 possible games. He's picked up 1k yards every season, is actually 4th in the league in rushing since he came into the league. Is that from being healthy and compiling? You bet your *** it is, but I think the fact again he's been durable enough to do that, that he's been very consistent with it and has done so in what has for the most part been one of the least conducive situations in the league for success is something I don't think he gets enough credit for pulling off. I think it's easy to get into the bashing of his lack of big play abilty and likely being overdrafted and just does not get respect for his durabilty and consistent production.
George Pickens- he makes himself look bad sometimes with his on field demeanor and comments. But I think he's a little misunderstand and is someoen who competes hard but due so some of his own actions is seen as a diva who only cares if/when he's getting the ball. Also I don't think people respect him enough to see his POV why he's so frustrated at times when he does not get the ball more. He's not merely ok on a per target basis he's elite. This was mentioned in a Steelers thread but he had 43 less yards then Diggs this year on 54 less targets! And he's not the one who had Allen!
Isiah Pachecho- Meager draft capital, different style that does not look smooth and idea that anyone can have success running on this team are reasons why I don't think he gets a lot of respect. I feel like Kareem Hunt was held in much higher esteem when he was with the Chiefs but their rushing production was similar, I mean real similar. They both exactly ran for 4.9 ypr in year one and 4.6 ypr in year two. Pachecho went for 1,765 on 375 carries and Hunt went for 2,151 on 453. 4.7 ypr for Pachecho and 4.74 for Hunt and I'd argue the offense during Hunt's time was more conducive to running success. Then as a pass catcher Pachecho has 90% catch rate and ZERO drops in his career. Depending on source Hunt had 6 drops his first two years, McKinnon has 5 or 6 over the last two years comparatively speaking though they both got about 35 more targets then him and it's fair to say his ypc was not great, but a lot to be said for that kind of realiablity especially on this team this year.
Plus beyond the stats he just seems to give off a energy boost.
Not trying to make a case he's better then Hunt. Trying to make a case taht Hunt was thought of as a really good RB who could go mulitiple places and continue to be a top RB in the league whereas Pachecho seems to be thought of as a product of the system.
I'd also nominate two of my Steelers.
Najee Harris- ok, he was not worth a late first but let's give the guy some credit. He's handled a big workload and has answered the bell in 51 out of 51 possible games. He's picked up 1k yards every season, is actually 4th in the league in rushing since he came into the league. Is that from being healthy and compiling? You bet your *** it is, but I think the fact again he's been durable enough to do that, that he's been very consistent with it and has done so in what has for the most part been one of the least conducive situations in the league for success is something I don't think he gets enough credit for pulling off. I think it's easy to get into the bashing of his lack of big play abilty and likely being overdrafted and just does not get respect for his durabilty and consistent production.
George Pickens- he makes himself look bad sometimes with his on field demeanor and comments. But I think he's a little misunderstand and is someoen who competes hard but due so some of his own actions is seen as a diva who only cares if/when he's getting the ball. Also I don't think people respect him enough to see his POV why he's so frustrated at times when he does not get the ball more. He's not merely ok on a per target basis he's elite. This was mentioned in a Steelers thread but he had 43 less yards then Diggs this year on 54 less targets! And he's not the one who had Allen!
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
The timing of my post certainly points to prisoner of the moment thinking—but I’ve posted about him before being a scapegoat of a lot of negativity (especially in Cleveland)—but Baker Mayfield. Seems like all of the Browns issues were somehow blamed on him, he got shipped around—-and to this day—I haven’t heard any of his former or current teammates say anything negative about him. He goes and replaces Tom Brady in Tampa Bay and has them playing some solid football. I’m not saying the dude is elite—but you can certainly do a lot worse than Baker Mayfield (especially with the current state of NFL qb’s)
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Baker's up there.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Seems pretty clear that the answer is Zach Wilson.
I mean, he's earned the disrespect, but that wasn't part of the question...
I mean, he's earned the disrespect, but that wasn't part of the question...
Soulfly3
Footballguy
My implication (which seems to have landed on everyone except you
) is that the player is more disrespected than actually just undervalued. It's a nuance.
But I'll allow it.
-OZ-
Footballguy
And he’s been doing it with less than great QBs (except an older Brady). Winston was good for him, but the guy is basically equal with Davonte Adams career-wise. Yet most people would include Adams as a top 5 guy - noticeably, you didn’t.
Barring injury or early retirement, Evans is a lock for the hall. There’s a fair chance he ends up top 5 all time in touchdowns and top 10 in yards.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I think he's a lock as is... Guy has a crazy impressive record of 10 straight 1000yd seasons to start a career.
ten.
2nd place is Moss with 6.
and he's about to tie Rice (barring injury) for most 1000yd seasons in history if he does it again in 2024
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just to clarify, Rice has 14 seasons with 1,000+ receiving yards. Carry on.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Consecutive seasons, sorry.
GregR
Footballguy
I think what disrespect Mayfield might have, he has probably earned. By a combination of as much middling on field play as good, and also by his behavior. There may not be past teammates stepping up to the mike to publicly call him out, but the stories are out there that he was difficult to coach and that his behavior annoyed players and coaches both.
When reading something like that and comparing it to his public behavior, I never thought, "Wow that seems out of character for him." No my reaction was more often, "Yes I could definitely see that being possible." He's visibly been very petty where if he had so little restraint in public I don't expect interacting with him in private settings was likely a joy either.
To his credit, this year is probably the year I felt like he might have started to turn that perception of himself around. Both with the quality of play and... either his behavior is better or I just have missed any incidents similar to what he's done in the past.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Since you brought up Rice, Evans' averages to date are in line with Rice's.
Rice: 5.1 - 75.6 - 0.65 per game
Evans: 4.9 - 75.8 - 0.61 per game
Of course, Rice played 303 games to Evans' 154 so far (to show you how insane Rice's production was).
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
There was a poll by WRs at some point and they all said Stafford threw by far the best pass. Must have been one year he was in the Pro Bowl and they all said it was the tightest spiral they had ever seen. Sometimes it's hard to overcome the Ford family, bad coaches, and bad players (with the exception of Calvin Johnson). Put Stafford in NE and he has 5+ super bowls. There's a reason B Sanders left that organization early. It was so poorly run back in the day.
I think Carson Palmer was disrespected too. And I think McCaffrey is because , well, he's a white RB. Guy is so incredible. I think Randy Moss was disrespected to a certain extent. He really wasn't the PITA people made him out to be.
I think Carson Palmer was disrespected too. And I think McCaffrey is because , well, he's a white RB. Guy is so incredible. I think Randy Moss was disrespected to a certain extent. He really wasn't the PITA people made him out to be.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Still nobody talking about what he DID do last night. Just what the Eagles didn't do.
First ever Bucs QB with 300+ yards and 3 TDs in a playoff game.
Mayfield was atrocious in Carolina, to the point where Sam Darnold was a very noticeable upgrade. Mayfield has had a nice bounce back this season (though not as good as his stats suggest) but he's put a lot of bad on tape the last couple seasons.
I will forever argue he got a raw deal in Cleveland, with them basically trash talking him on the way out, which was doubly stupid as all it did was lower his trade value.
Mayfield played well last night, but that was as bad a defensive effort as I've EVER seen. The Eagles back 7 "played" as bad as any secondary I've seen. Guys were wide open, and nobody tackled. There wasn't any degree of difficulty to get 300-3, unlike say someone like Matthew Stafford who was making tight throw after tight throw to keep the Rams in that game.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Just for conversational purposes Evans per game average stats are accumulated up to his prime. Those inevitable, upcoming final years of dipped production aren't included. Jerrys final 28 games game he had like 1200 total yards. Never mentioned as the top handful of guys but year in year out Mike Evans gets his numbers. Now go finish your career on the Chiefs buddy
I like Stafford a lot, but I think the bolded is ridiculous. I will agree with CMC being underrated. He's arguably the best RB of the last 20 years and has only gotten better since being paired with Shanahan.
Palmer is tough to say. I feel like he's a big "what if?" guy. He never ascended to the level it looked like he was going to after his knee injury. He looked like he was gonna be a Favre level talent in 2005. His Arizona run I think was a little overrated, as Arians had that offense humming and just needed a guy to keep it on schedule. Palmer was basically a Tua level player by that point.
I think Moss deserved a fair amount of disrespect. He completely quit on the Raiders and had his share of off field issues. I don't think those things are necessarily held against him, when discussing his career (as it shouldn't be, its a small part) but it happened.
Goff is a good choice.
I'd put Kirk Cousins up there as well.
I'd put Kirk Cousins up there as well.
Dickies
Footballguy
I think Cousins is a good one for this thread. He's been pretty solid throughout his career, but he's been mocked by people dating back to the time he was drafted. We all saw what happened when the Vikings were forced to rely on other QBs.
For RBs I would say Raheem Mostert or Devin Singletary. Mostert, when healthy, has been just about as good as any other RB in the league IMHO. Singletary has always struck me as being very good and I questioned why Buffalo didn't run the ball more with him. He was a total afterthought in Houston at the start of the season, but once given the opportunity he ran well. I watched a couple of his games at the end of the season and he was running hard, breaking tackles, and making people miss.
For RBs I would say Raheem Mostert or Devin Singletary. Mostert, when healthy, has been just about as good as any other RB in the league IMHO. Singletary has always struck me as being very good and I questioned why Buffalo didn't run the ball more with him. He was a total afterthought in Houston at the start of the season, but once given the opportunity he ran well. I watched a couple of his games at the end of the season and he was running hard, breaking tackles, and making people miss.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Just to continue the conversation- and emphasizing the “most disrespected” vs “most underrated” dynamic- I think Lamar Jackson would qualify. A lot of people refused to acknowledge him as a quarterback, people thought he was an idiot for asking for the kind of money that he was (and doing so without an agent)- and he comes back and leads an injured team to a bye week and has an MVP caliber season. I’m not sure if Goff or Cousins have felt anywhere near the disrespect that Lamar has.
It's a different kind of disrespect when comparing these three guys but I think the level is similar.
jm192
Footballguy
I definitely think Goff. The Jared Goff thread is full of 1 guy going so far as to say the Lions need to cut bait or they'll never make the Super Bowl.
Cousins is another good one. He's been really good for the Vikings. I thought he was playing really well this year. He's one of the most criticized qb's in the league.
Najee Harris is a good one. It seems like we're always talking about how overrated he was/is. But he's had 3 straight 1,000 yard rushing seasons. He's had 10/10/8 total touchdowns in 3 seasons.
Cousins is another good one. He's been really good for the Vikings. I thought he was playing really well this year. He's one of the most criticized qb's in the league.
Najee Harris is a good one. It seems like we're always talking about how overrated he was/is. But he's had 3 straight 1,000 yard rushing seasons. He's had 10/10/8 total touchdowns in 3 seasons.
Cousins is certainly a good one, though after the way the Vikings finished the year, it's possible the narrative has changed to what it always should have been.
Najee is a mediocre RB. I don't think its disrespecting a guy who is under 4 YPC for his career to say that. The Steelers have probably been holding back their offense for over a year by playing Najee over Warren as much as they have.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's gotta be Cousins. You can basically pencil the dude in for 4500 yards and 30 TDs every year.
All this talk about Goff who's career best QB rating is 101, which Kirk Cousins (who didn't even get mentioned until half way down the 2nd page) has beaten 5 times (as high as 107.4).
Cousins is older but they've had roughly the same number of seasons as a starter.
Disrespect.
All this talk about Goff who's career best QB rating is 101, which Kirk Cousins (who didn't even get mentioned until half way down the 2nd page) has beaten 5 times (as high as 107.4).
Cousins is older but they've had roughly the same number of seasons as a starter.
Disrespect.
General Malaise
Footballguy
How has Cousins done in the post-season? Goff took his team to a SB and has post-season wins with two different franchises. And Cousins?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
This is actually one of the many reasons playoff wins can be such a misleading stat. It's not like Goff has been particularly good in the playoffs. In fact, he's kind of sucked.
He's played 7 playoff games and never thrown for more than 1 TD in a playoff game. He "won" a game where he went 15-28 186yds 0TDs. And "won" another one where he went 9-19 155yds 1TD. His completion percentage was less than 55% in 4 of his 7 playoff games.
Cousins playoff stats
93.7 rtg, 254ypg, 1.25 TD per game, 0.2 INT per game
Goff
85.4 rtg, 225ypg, 0.71 TD per game, 0.3 INT per game
It's more than the QB to get to a Super Bowl. I would venture a guess that Cousins on those teams would have done just as good if not better than Goff
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
A lot of people mentioned here actually earned the "opportunity" to be disrespected.
Someone who did nothing to be disrespected but was still for several years until just recently is Jordan Love. And I admit I was among those doing the disrespecting.
Packer management was right 20 years ago and looks like they're right again. And Aaron is starting to look a bit like a dumpster fire (I'm aware some think he already is).
Someone who did nothing to be disrespected but was still for several years until just recently is Jordan Love. And I admit I was among those doing the disrespecting.
Packer management was right 20 years ago and looks like they're right again. And Aaron is starting to look a bit like a dumpster fire (I'm aware some think he already is).
Maybe GB is getting disrespected. Love hadn’t really done anything to earn respect prior to a few months ago.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I see the disdain we had for Jordan because of the draft day trade and the slight to Aaron as disrespecting Jordan. I know I did. And I was not happy with management too. Jordan may have not earned any respect, but few gave him a chance and most were leaving him for dead.
Had we made the same move for Burrow or Herbert, would have been a different story with no disrespect.
GregR
Footballguy
Whenever I hear the name Najee Harris I immediately think of Najeh "The Dumper"
Davenport instead.Which admittedly is pretty disrespectful, so you got me there.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Oh baloney! He just WON a playoff game by having a flawless game. Did you not watch it? He executed perfectly.
When the world at large talks about the best QBs of all time they talk about winners. Aikman, Namath and Bradshaw had pedestrian career stats. Know what they are in the Hall of Fame for? WINNING!
You know who doesn't win when it matters most? Kirk Cousins. You can try to dodge it with stat analysis if you want, but right now, Goff is a better post season QB than Cousins and it's not really debatable. Why. WINNING!
General Malaise
Footballguy
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Saying this in East Lansing is punishable by death.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Well not everybody can boast a Tom Brady.
Defense has something to say about that.......winning. Winning is an overrated stat for QB's. Too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. I would take Cousins over Goff any time.
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
rockaction
Footballguy
Cousins > Goff
Goff's numbers when pressured are horrible. You're all forgetting that he played in back of two really good lines in L.A. (when he played there) and now Detroit. He's fine when you keep the pocket clean. Absolutely crumbles when you can't. If Tampa keeps blitzing like they do then we're about to find out about it.
Goff's numbers when pressured are horrible. You're all forgetting that he played in back of two really good lines in L.A. (when he played there) and now Detroit. He's fine when you keep the pocket clean. Absolutely crumbles when you can't. If Tampa keeps blitzing like they do then we're about to find out about it.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Not exactly playing with a great defense per the numbers.Defense has something to say about that.......winning. Winning is an overrated stat for QB's. Too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. I would take Cousins over Goff any time.
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
2023 NFL Defense Total Team Stat Leaders - ESPN
ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Find a list of the Defense Total team stat leaders for the 2023 NFL Regular Season.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I agree with Cousins and Goff but I have big homer biases toward both.
In general, fans like to draw an arbitrary line between QBs that are good enough to win the Super Bowl and those who aren't. Of course football isn't that simple, but the guys who land just short of that line are always going to be contenders for most disrespected player.
In general, fans like to draw an arbitrary line between QBs that are good enough to win the Super Bowl and those who aren't. Of course football isn't that simple, but the guys who land just short of that line are always going to be contenders for most disrespected player.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Eli Manning > Dan Marino?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Not exactly playing with a great defense per the numbers.Defense has something to say about that.......winning. Winning is an overrated stat for QB's. Too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. I would take Cousins over Goff any time.
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
2023 NFL Defense Total Team Stat Leaders - ESPN
ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Find a list of the Defense Total team stat leaders for the 2023 NFL Regular Season.www.espn.com
In Goff's super bowl run he completed 55% of his passes, 230yds/gm, 6.7 YPA, had 1 TD in 3 games alongside 2 INTs and 2 fumbles, and a 71.7 QB rating.
How could they have ever pulled off that run without him?
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General Malaise
Footballguy
From a writer called Peter King, who has covered the NFL for 40 years and has a Hall of Fame vote:
Offensive players of the week
Jared Goff, quarterback, Detroit. Facing the quarterback he was traded for three years ago, Goff met a moment 32 years in the making for Detroit. He led three straight 75-yard touchdown drives to start the game, helping the Lions to an early 21-10 lead over the Rams. The Lions’ offense slowed in the second half, but Goff remained efficient and took care of the ball, and was rewarded for his 22-of-27, 277-yard performance with “Jared Goff” chants from fans and teammates alike post-game.
Offensive players of the week
Jared Goff, quarterback, Detroit. Facing the quarterback he was traded for three years ago, Goff met a moment 32 years in the making for Detroit. He led three straight 75-yard touchdown drives to start the game, helping the Lions to an early 21-10 lead over the Rams. The Lions’ offense slowed in the second half, but Goff remained efficient and took care of the ball, and was rewarded for his 22-of-27, 277-yard performance with “Jared Goff” chants from fans and teammates alike post-game.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Not exactly playing with a great defense per the numbers.Defense has something to say about that.......winning. Winning is an overrated stat for QB's. Too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. I would take Cousins over Goff any time.
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
2023 NFL Defense Total Team Stat Leaders - ESPN
ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Find a list of the Defense Total team stat leaders for the 2023 NFL Regular Season.
In Goff's super bowl run he completed 55% of his passes, 230yds/gm, 6.7 YPA, had 1 TD in 3 games alongside 2 INTs and 2 fumbles, and a 71.7 QB rating.
How could they have ever pulled off that run without him?
You're talking about the past. Talk about the now. Goff is still alive in the playoffs. And Cousins?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
If they both had ~20 playoff starts like Aikman then we could talk.
It's just too small of a sample size currently.
Goff goes 9-19 for 128 yards with 0 TD and 1 INT (and a fumble) and "wins" because they run for 8ypc and played great defense. Cousins goes 31-39 for 300yds with 2 TDs and 0 turnovers and a 112 QB rating and they lose because the defense gives up 30+ points including the game winner right at the end.
You flip those results to the loss Goff deserved and the win Cousins deserved and all the sudden the winning percentage disparity is gone. Or take your pick from any of Goff's other 4 miserable playoff games (the majority of the ones he's played in).
The sad thing about bringing up a guy like Aikman is that Aikman's per game playoff stats blow Goff's out of the water. Despite playing in the 1990's NFL where 3400yds and 25 TDs was good for 2nd best in the league in each category some years.
In Aikman's first 12 playoff games he didn't have a single one with a completion percentage under 55%. Goff has done it in 4 out of 7. In Aikman's first 7 games he had 14 TDs and a QB rating around 115. Goff has 5 TDs and a QB rating of 71. It's not even the same planet. Aikman didn't just win in the playoffs. He played in a whole different world than Goff.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Defense has something to say about that.......winning. Winning is an overrated stat for QB's. Too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. I would take Cousins over Goff any time.
On two different teams, how many post-season wins does he have? And he has Justin Jefferson, the best WR in the game, so...
I'm sorry, what is Goff doing this weekend? Oh, leading yet another team to the divisional round. And Cousins? Oh, right.....
Take the L boys. You're out of your league.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Small sample size? My dude.....look up Kirk Cousins playoff appearances for small sample size.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Pick apart Goff's playoff WIN against the Rams. Go on.....
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