**** OFFICIAL Marvel's Avengers: Endgame **** SPOILERS ALLOWED! Enter at your own risk!!! (1 Viewer)

[CletiusMaximus]

He would also need to travel to February 2008 and place a large bet on the Giants upsetting the Patriots in the Super Bowl to complete the Back to the Future arc. 

 

[Tony Jabroni]

Who else cried?

Fan ####### tastic!

 

[hagmania]

After second viewing, I really have to say I didn't feel the length. This does not feel like a 3 hour movie to me in the theater. Not saying it should have been any longer, just that I felt the pacing was appropriate and executed very well.

Might be a different story when I'm sitting on the couch at home with a thousand other competing priorities, but as a theater experience it is excellent.

 

[H Jass]

So here is how I would sketch it out.  

Avengers time travel to whatever year (2014?) to get the Soul Stone.  Widow dies and is sucked inside Soul Stone.
Soul Stone returned to the Endgame 'present' (5 years after Infinity War).  Gets used here for Endgame events.
Cap returns Soul Stone back to Vormir in 2014.
Thanos in that timeline arrives during IW with Gamora and obtains the Soul Stone, trapping Gamora in there with BW
Thanos snaps in IW.
Thanos destroys the stones in beginning of End Game, presumably killing Gamora and BW.  Unless it frees them.

The big time travel problem is Thanos from 2014 time traveled to the future and died here. So even if Steve returned the stones back to the past, there would be no Thanos left in that timeline to be Thanos and do the initial snap.

So for events to work with just what was shown on screen... we have to assume that when Tony snapped his fingers, he didn't just dust Thanos and his minions out of existence. He also had to return or recreate them in 2014 with no memory of a time traveling Nebula, of themselves time traveling to the future, etc. Basically oblivious of the rest of the Endgame events so they live out Infinity War as it happened.

And in typing that, I just created the theory of where Gamora went. Like Thanos and his minions, she was dusted and returned to 2014 so there would be a Gamora there to play out the events in IW.  Quill and company wouldn't know where she went, she'd have just disappeared during the fight unless they saw her dust.

In which case Thanos destroying the Soul Stone could have freed both Gamora and BW.    

(ETA:  This doesn't address the change to the timeline with Loki, of course)

You guys are smaht.

I'm with @Anarchy99 . I get to time travel plots and my brain clogs up and can not for the life of me keep up with any paradoxes.  I just eat what they're spoon-feeding me and trust they got it figured out.  Nom-nom.

 

[AcerFC]

So here is how I would sketch it out.  

Avengers time travel to whatever year (2014?) to get the Soul Stone.  Widow dies and is sucked inside Soul Stone.
Soul Stone returned to the Endgame 'present' (5 years after Infinity War).  Gets used here for Endgame events.
Cap returns Soul Stone back to Vormir in 2014.
Thanos in that timeline arrives during IW with Gamora and obtains the Soul Stone, trapping Gamora in there with BW
Thanos snaps in IW.
Thanos destroys the stones in beginning of End Game, presumably killing Gamora and BW.  Unless it frees them.

The big time travel problem is Thanos from 2014 time traveled to the future and died here. So even if Steve returned the stones back to the past, there would be no Thanos left in that timeline to be Thanos and do the initial snap.

So for events to work with just what was shown on screen... we have to assume that when Tony snapped his fingers, he didn't just dust Thanos and his minions out of existence. He also had to return or recreate them in 2014 with no memory of a time traveling Nebula, of themselves time traveling to the future, etc. Basically oblivious of the rest of the Endgame events so they live out Infinity War as it happened.

And in typing that, I just created the theory of where Gamora went. Like Thanos and his minions, she was dusted and returned to 2014 so there would be a Gamora there to play out the events in IW.  Quill and company wouldn't know where she went, she'd have just disappeared during the fight unless they saw her dust.

In which case Thanos destroying the Soul Stone could have freed both Gamora and BW.    

(ETA:  This doesn't address the change to the timeline with Loki, of course)

Wait, what?

So you are saying that everything will happen the way we saw it in IW. What was the point then. I assumed doing all of this would prevent Thanos from snapping his fingers. Which happened because Capt America came back as an old guy and didnt say something like, it didnt work guys. 

 

[hagmania]

Wait, what?

So you are saying that everything will happen the way we saw it in IW. What was the point then. I assumed doing all of this would prevent Thanos from snapping his fingers. Which happened because Capt America came back as an old guy and didnt say something like, it didnt work guys. 

They specified they only wanted to bring everyone dusted back to the present, five years post-snap.

 

[AcerFC]

They specified they only wanted to bring everyone dusted back to the present, five years post-snap.

Right. I remember that. But Greg says that Tonys snap returned Thanos and crew to 2014

 

[hagmania]

Right. I remember that. But Greg says that Tonys snap returned Thanos and crew to 2014

Ohhhhh. Well, I am not sure we will ever know, but I don't think that's quite correct. My take on it is Thanos and army were of a divergent timeline whenever Nebula 2014.2 becomes memory entangled.

 

[hagmania]

So with that said, I figure that The Snap still happens in "current" timeline.

 

[AcerFC]

https://twitter.com/TheLifeof_Ja/status/1121261414826553349?s=19

 

[Hawks64]

That was the other armored character I was thinking about earlier. 

I’d love to see them launch Doom with his own solo movie. 

I’d be down with this.  Would rather see him than some sort of cosmic space villain

Doom can't be a solo film, first has to be F4 IMO.

 

[GregR]

So with that said, I figure that The Snap still happens in "current" timeline.

Well, the problem is the Cap ending.

Without old Cap on the bench, you could look at it as... Tony dusts Thanos and does NOT recreate a Thanos in 2014.  That Thanos-less version of 2014 then goes on along a different timeline where the original Thanos Snap never happened, while ours with Endgame he had existed. That new timeline has no Gamora (as she is stuck in our timeline), no Thanos, Nebula, etc. The stones get returned to it so the worries of the Sorcerer Supreme are put to rest (i.e. when Dr Strange movie happens in that timeline, the dimension doesn't fall to Dormamu because the Time stone is there to stop him).

But the Cap ending doesn't leave that possible.  It tosses us back into the Back To The Future model of time travel. He's able to go into his timeline's past and have the effects cascade through and show up in the now of our timeline rather than spawn a separate future that does not impact ours.

Look at this from Cap's personal timeline if Tony doesn't recreate a 2014, unknowing Thanos.   Cap goes back in time to be with Peggy.  Thanos in that timeline disappears suddenly in 2014. Infinity War never happens. Endgame never happens. His previous Cap-self never goes back in time to replace the stones so there is no little scene with Hulk, Falcon, and Bucky sending him back for old-Cap to be sitting on a bench at.

I take that back, one way you could make Cap-ending work.  Cap lives out his life with Peggy in alternate timeline, becoming old. When she dies, he uses the Pym particles to return to our timeline as an old man rather than having just returned right away after returning the stones. If so the thing missing from on screen would be old Cap returning to one of the other receivers unnoticed (van or Avenger's facility for example) at a previous point while they existed, and then walking out to the site with the bench for that final scene.  In that case, Thanos wouldn't have to be recreated in 2014. That one would be an alternate reality without Thanos, Infinity War or Endgame, and where Cap's life with Peggy took place before he finally returned home to our timeline.

 

[hagmania]

Well, the problem is the Cap ending.

...

I take that back, one way you could make Cap-ending work.  Cap lives out his life with Peggy in alternate timeline, becoming old. When she dies, he uses the Pym particles to return to our timeline as an old man rather than having just returned right away after returning the stones. If so the thing missing from on screen would be old Cap returning to one of the other receivers unnoticed (van or Avenger's facility for example) at a previous point while they existed, and then walking out to the site with the bench for that final scene.  In that case, Thanos wouldn't have to be recreated in 2014. That one would be an alternate reality without Thanos, Infinity War or Endgame, and where Cap's life with Peggy took place before he finally returned home to our timeline.

This is where I had worked it out to, just didn't map it out in thread. Agreed with this take. 

 

[Hawks64]

That Thanos was 7 years younger than Infinity War Thanos. IW Thanos seemed tired. Like he was close to ending the journey he set his whole life on. 2012 Thanos was invigorated by the thought that he actually finds the stones.

Thanos is an eternal, 7 years is absolutely nothing to him so that doesn't hold any weight IMO. It's just MCU playing with power levels in and between movies. Capt Marvel and the Scarlet Witch should have absolutely been able to go toe to toe without any issues.

 

[H Jass]

Thanos is an eternal, 7 years is absolutely nothing to him so that doesn't hold any weight IMO. It's just MCU playing with power levels in and between movies. Capt Marvel and the Scarlet Witch should have absolutely been able to go toe to toe without any issues.

Also wrote it off that Thor was still out of shape, drunken Thor.  Had to knock the rust off still.

My only tiniest of nitpicks had to do with my flawed memory. Why couldn't they have made Loki's staff glow yellow instead of blue!??!!?!?111?!  It took me too long to figure out where the Mind Stone was and just thought Loki's staff had a chunk of the blue Space Stone.  :nerd-world problems:

 

[Hawks64]

Also wrote it off that Thor was still out of shape, drunken Thor.  Had to knock the rust off still.

Except once he went full on Thor he was full on God of Thunder. How do you explain Capt Marvel not able to beat the hell out of him and rip the gauntlet off?

Like I said it was a small thing and didn't kill the movie for me, just would have liked to see it more consistent. Like how Corvus Glaive toying with most of the Avenger's in Infinity War and essentially not able to do anything in End Game.

 

[H Jass]

Except once he went full on Thor he was full on God of Thunder. How do you explain Capt Marvel not able to beat the hell out of him and rip the gauntlet off?

Like I said it was a small thing and didn't kill the movie for me, just would have liked to see it more consistent. Like how Corvus Glaive toying with most of the Avenger's in Infinity War and essentially not able to do anything in End Game.

Corvus Glaive had a bad night the night before.  Didn't sleep well...had a bit of the runs and got himself a little dehydrated and some bad chafing.  Tried to take a quick IV before the ship popped in above Avengers HQ's, but was still not feeling 100%. 

Capt. Marvel had a bit of jet lag as she had been flying all night to get back.  Also the new haircut still felt a little "funny" so she was slightly distracted.  Postgame, she said she should of flipped and back-kicked Thanos, but was caught wrong-footed and took that Power Stone pop to the beak.  She'd play it differently if she could. 

 

[moleculo]

Margaret is her formal name, Peggy is her nickname.  

Margaret is used often as her name in the series Agent Carter.   Since Jarvis was in that 1970 time frame as well(and also starred in Agent Carter), I am sure it was suppose to be the Carter that Steve knew from the past.

Peggy is apparently a common nickname for Margaret.  My grandma and mom were both named Margaret - my grandma went by Peggy and my mom by Margy to avoid confusion.

 

[moleculo]

Apologies if this had been covered - when Professor Hulk snapped, he doubled the world's population.  That kind of sucks.  The world had gotten used to half the population by then - not enough food for everyone, infrastructure stuff had gotten shuttered, whales swimming in the Hudson, etc.  People had gotten on with their lives - gotten remarried, etc.

I mean, it's good everyone is back, but at what cost?

 

[Hawks64]

I would have loved a node to the comics with making Hulk grey when Banner and Hulk co-exist. Grey Hulk was one of my favorite runs in Hulk.

 

[Andrew74]

Just got back from seeing the movie.  I shouldn’t have read this thread just now - all this time travel talk has my head spinning. It was better when I just accepted “they snapped Thanos and all was right in the world.”  

I agree with the fluctuating power levels. Fat Thor was funny but muddled the movie.  Was he not at full power?  He went all “lightning eyes” in the final battle but Thanos almost killed him. He seemed at Thanos w/ Gauntlet level in IW.  But here he has both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir and can’t hang. I just have to believe Fat Thor just isn’t the same Thor power-wise we saw at the end of IW.  Otherwise he should have just flown through Thanos’ ship like he did those massive transports in Wakanda and kicked a gauntletless Thanos’ ### with those two weapons.   

Captain Marvel is overpowered.  If they don’t fix it the future movies will be boring. At least Thanos punches her out at the end with the stones.  If she’d overtaken him that would have just ruined it. 

Im just discombobulated - the movie was nothing like I expected.  I guess I thinking something more like IW and it was nothing like that.  It was satisfying in the end.  I think I just need to watch it again now that I know how the movie plays out. 

 

[Chaka]

Right. I remember that. But Greg says that Tonys snap returned Thanos and crew to 2014.

It's not necessarily required for Thanos to have been "re-created" by Tony in 2014.

This is going to sound odd but we know the snap happened in the 2023 timeline because it already happened.

I think it also works if a separate timeline was created when Nebula went back to 2014 and was discovered. The original timeline would continue with Thanos snapping in 2018 and getting his head chopped off. In the  divergent, second timeline Thanos discovers the plan comes forward to the first timeline in 2023 and gets dusted, also remerging the second timeline with the first. It effectively means that there were two Thanos at some point but never in the same timeline.

Cap going back is a bit more problematic but he probably simply hung up his shield and lived that "good life" not getting involved in any of the precipitating events that lead up to Endgame.

Now this type of "sliding doors" time travel concept is nowhere nearly so simple as at it's fundamental level it necessarily dictates that everything, absolutely every single thing creates more timelines? Had Fruit Loops instead of oatmeal? Guess what? There is a timeline where you had Fruit Loops instead of oatmeal. In this reality there are infinite timelines and infinitely more diverging at all times.

I read a very interesting, and mind bending book called Dark Matter by Blake Crouch with the divergent timelines thing as the central plot point. It's worth a read.

 

[-OZ-]

Wait, what?

So you are saying that everything will happen the way we saw it in IW. What was the point then. I assumed doing all of this would prevent Thanos from snapping his fingers. Which happened because Capt America came back as an old guy and didnt say something like, it didnt work guys. 

I figured everything happened and Steve just lived through those 5 years knowing it would come back. That would suck. Plus knowing what all will happen but presumably hanging low and letting his wife do her thing.

Sorry, hacked the quote

While I liked the "girl power" moment, Captain Marvel had just flown through a ship. Surely she could make it across the warzone without shuri and company.

Loved seeing pepper in suit.

 

[Corporation]

Peggy is apparently a common nickname for Margaret.  My grandma and mom were both named Margaret - my grandma went by Peggy and my mom by Margy to avoid confusion.

It is, my cousin is Peggy and I was surprised when I saw her driver's license say Margaret.  She said "Everyone knows that Peggy is short for Margaret".  Almost no one I tell knows it  

 

[Corporation]

It's not necessarily required for Thanos to have been "re-created" by Tony in 2014.

This is going to sound odd but we know the snap happened in the 2023 timeline because it already happened.

I think it also works if a separate timeline was created when Nebula went back to 2014 and was discovered. The original timeline would continue with Thanos snapping in 2018 and getting his head chopped off. In the  divergent, second timeline Thanos discovers the plan comes forward to the first timeline in 2023 and gets dusted, also remerging the second timeline with the first. It effectively means that there were two Thanos at some point but never in the same timeline.

Cap going back is a bit more problematic but he probably simply hung up his shield and lived that "good life" not getting involved in any of the precipitating events that lead up to Endgame.

Now this type of "sliding doors" time travel concept is nowhere nearly so simple as at it's fundamental level it necessarily dictates that everything, absolutely every single thing creates more timelines? Had Fruit Loops instead of oatmeal? Guess what? There is a timeline where you had Fruit Loops instead of oatmeal. In this reality there are infinite timelines and infinitely more diverging at all times.

I read a very interesting, and mind bending book called Dark Matter by Blake Crouch with the divergent timelines thing as the central plot point. It's worth a read.

We have to remember that Peggy Carter was a huge part of SHIELD.  Her being with Steve would have made huge impacts on every decision she made.  I also find it hard to believe that Cap would have just sat out all major world events for 50 years.

Anyway, it's a problem I have with time travel in every movie, so I generally try not to think about it too long.  

 

[Thunderlips]

Only gripe with the movie was the lack of screen time for the "snapped" heroes.  Would have liked it if, when the Big Three were down and out after fighting Thanos and all the other guys were buried, they could have come back first and dusted it up with Thanos before both armies showed.

 

[Workhorse]

Loved seeing fat Thor drinking my favorite local beer, brewed here in Georgia (Creature Comforts!)

 

[Psychopav]

Ok, I knew the security guard where Antman comes out of the van looked familiar, but I didn't recognize him.  Ken Jeong.

He wasn't the only Community alum.

 

[Buckychudd]

The gay guy in Steve's therapy group was co-director Joe Russo.

They had at least three MCU directors featured in the movie. 

 

[Otis]

Not reading anything. Just posting that I bought tickets for the sold out 7:15am show. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a movie at 7:15am.  Crazy. 

Psyched though. 

 

[Psychopav]

Yeah, I'm at a loss as well. I thought it may have been a call back to the Agent Carter TV series but really have no idea.

Sadly, Agent Carter never got that far.

 

[Psychopav]

The solo movie is supposedly her back-story.

Don't be ridiculous.

That movie takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

 

[The Duff Man]

Yeah Old Cap messes up the way they handled time travel. 

The way they played the movie, everything that happened happened (wait....) including the snap. 

An alternate timeline would be created where there was no snap because past Thanos wasn’t around to do it, but that timeline is not experienced by the characters we are watching. 

I am choosing to believe that Old Cap lived his life in an alternate timeline that was created when he went back and danced with Peggy. He returned to this timeline to pass along the shield. 

Having him show up on the bench instead of the pad was just movie theatrics. 

 

[Chaka]

Only gripe with the movie was the lack of screen time for the "snapped" heroes.  Would have liked it if, when the Big Three were down and out after fighting Thanos and all the other guys were buried, they could have come back first and dusted it up with Thanos before both armies showed.

Scarlett Witch sure gave ol' Thanny what-for. To the point he had to call Broken Arrow on his own position.

Not sure which of the other dusted could even be on the same field with Thanos. Maybe Strange, but what's Black Panther going to do? Throw a Catarang at him?

Nah, it was a fight for the original Avengers which is why I was disappoted that Hulk didn't get in on that action.

 

[Chaka]

Not reading anything. Just posting that I bought tickets for the sold out 7:15am show. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a movie at 7:15am.  Crazy. 

Psyched though. 

All you need to know is Ant Man, Thanos's butt BOOM!!!!

 

[Psychopav]

This is where I had worked it out to, just didn't map it out in thread. Agreed with this take. 

Since when would Pym particles allow the user to jump timelines?

 

[shadyridr]

Saw it. Thought the beginning was good, the middle time travel part was hokey and boring me to tears and I was starting to hate it. Of course the end saved it for me. Never heard people audibly cheering in a movie before. Anyway I really enjoyed it overall but thought IW was better. 

 

[eoMMan]

Out of shape Thor was funny.

I liked the new Banner Hulk.

How could Captain America control Thor's hammer? I thought only a God could do that?

I didn't like how they had a hard time beating up Thanos....with NO rings. Made no sense. Thanos was a beast in that fight.

What did Captain America say to the guy in the elevator where he let him walk out no problem with the suitcase?

The movie didn't need to be 3 hours. They should have cut down some of the unneeded dramatic scenes, imo.

 

[Psychopav]

Saw it. Thought the beginning was good, the middle time travel part was hokey and boring me to tears and I was starting to hate it. Of course the end saved it for me. Never heard people audibly cheering in a movie before. Anyway I really enjoyed it overall but thought IW was better. 

You have no comment about the girl power moment? Weren't you one of the ones going nuts about Captain Marvel and the sjw's?

 

[eoMMan]

Happy telling Stark’s daughter he’ll get her all the cheeseburgers she wants really hit me in the heart.  

That scene made no sense to me. She was hungry now. Where da fuq were the burgers, fat boy favreau?

 

[The Dude]

It was a great capstone for fanatics - but i wuld give it about an 8.5.  The time travel dragged - especially Tony and his dad.

Regarding Thanos death  - I agree it's a paradox.  They even wrote it that way.  They had to put the stones back to not disrupt the timeline - so they would have had to return Thanos for the same reason.

 

[Psychopav]

Out of shape Thor was funny.

I liked the new Banner Hulk.

How could Captain America control Thor's hammer? I thought only a God could do that?

I didn't like how they had a hard time beating up Thanos....with NO rings. Made no sense. Thanos was a beast in that fight.

What did Captain America say to the guy in the elevator where he let him walk out no problem with the suitcase?

The movie didn't need to be 3 hours. They should have cut down some of the unneeded dramatic scenes, imo.

In the elevator Cap said "Hail Hydra".

I also had another gripe about Cap and mjolnir. No problem with his being able to weild it, but didn't they establish in Ragnarok that Thor's ability to call down lightning was innate, and not tied to the hammer? So why was Cap able to summon lightning when welding mjolnir?

Also how cool is it that my autocorrect knows mjolnir and Ragnarok?

 

[Chaka]

Out of shape Thor was funny.

I liked the new Banner Hulk.

How could Captain America control Thor's hammer? I thought only a God could do that?

I didn't like how they had a hard time beating up Thanos....with NO rings. Made no sense. Thanos was a beast in that fight.

What did Captain America say to the guy in the elevator where he let him walk out no problem with the suitcase?

The movie didn't need to be 3 hours. They should have cut down some of the unneeded dramatic scenes, imo.

Whosoever is worthy may possess the power of Thor. Cap was worthy and could therefore weird Mijolnir.

Thanos with no rings, regularly takes on multiple big hitters in the comics.

"Hail Hydra" we knew all those characters were Hydra agents from Winter Soldier. Cap gave them the password so they thought he was in their side.

 

[Chaka]

That scene made no sense to me. She was hungry now. Where da fuq were the burgers, fat boy favreau?

He ate them.

 

[Chaka]

In the elevator Cap said "Hail Hydra".

I also had another quick about Cap and mjolnir. No problem with his being able to weild it, but didn't they establish in Ragnarok that Thor's ability to call down lightning was innate, and not tied to the hammer? So why was Cap able to summon lightning when welding mjolnir?

Also how cool is it that my autocorrect knows mjolnir and Ragnarok?

But Thanos regularly corrects to Thanks.

 

[eoMMan]

Whosoever is worthy may possess the power of Thor. Cap was worthy and could therefore weird Mijolnir.

Thanos with no rings, regularly takes on multiple big hitters in the comics.

"Hail Hydra" we knew all those characters were Hydra agents from Winter Soldier. Cap gave them the password so they thought he was in their side.

I think at this point with so many MCU movies made, the reasoning of "in or based on the comics" is pretty meaningless. They almost took him down when he had the rings. Didn't understand why three of them...three of the most powerful heroes...had trouble.

 

[Insein]

I think at this point with so many MCU movies made, the reasoning of "in or based on the comics" is pretty meaningless. They almost took him down when he had the rings. Didn't understand why three of them...three of the most powerful heroes...had trouble.

2012 Thanos was motivated and hungry for those stones. He's pretty damn powerful in his own right. 

2018 Thanos gave up everything he cared about to achieve this dream and was worn down by using the gauntlet so much. 

 

[shadyridr]

Can someone explain to me how Captain America could yield the hammer?

Also I thought they did a poor job of explaining where Gamora went. 

 

[shadyridr]

You have no comment about the girl power moment? Weren't you one of the ones going nuts about Captain Marvel and the sjw's?

Huh? No

 

[Mario Kart]

Great writing by the Russo's for this movie.

In case some people do not recall things from previous movies. Very few holes to be filled.