Public Schools are getting worse (3 Viewers)

[simey]

I looked and North Carolina seems to have teacher salaries set by the State which is odd. That’s definitely not how Michigan does it. Here in Michigan a teacher can leave for another district that offers more money. If you have a masters degree in NC, you have to work 5 years to finally hit $50,000. After 20 years, you haven’t even hit $60,000 yet. It’s pretty easy to see why there could be a teacher shortage there.

My sister got her masters a few decades ago, and it didn't make much of a difference. The legislators do not care about public education in this state.

 

[djmich]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

 

[snellman]

We are fortunate that we live in a smaller community (less than 10000) and have a very good public school. For size comparison, my son's class is one of the largest in the high school with 140 out of the 487 students.

I think one of the biggest problems as far as social, teachers, etc. is us as parents. "Our little Johnny would never do that", "Don't you dare discipline my little Suzy" I have acquaintances that are teachers and co-workers spouses that are teachers and they said there is little discipline, they can do nothing about it, and the students know that. The teachers get burned out because of the political BS and the pay just isn't worth it.

 

[General Malaise]

I worry about a teacher shortage very soon. I know more than a few young teachers who left the profession coming out of the pandemic. People in their 20s and early 30s who just felt like the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and found other jobs before they got too old to find another career.

 

[Max Power]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

You know your son better than I do, but maybe the pandemic flipped a proverbial switch for your son. Or maybe he was just always destined to be one of those people who suddenly "gets it" as a teenager. Not saying that grade inflation isn't playing a role, but it could be that your son is just actually doing well.

Id say he tries, but he also has a "thats good enough" attitude pretty often. I still feel like the quality of work he is turning in isn't up to the standard of what I was turning in at his age. I was a C student in high school and this is now A level work...?

I hadn't heard the term grade inflation until today. So after a Google, it does seem like that's what is going on. From this Forbes article it seems pretty crazy.

-89% of students get an A or B in Math, English, Social Studies and Science.
-GPAs are up .2-.3 points.
-40% of educators admit to giving a student a better grade than they deserved.

This is all on top of the 2023 senior class having the lowest ACT and SAT scores in the last 30 years.

I worry about the direction these schools are going and if they are really preparing kids for College. Handing out A's in high school with low levels of effort doesn't set realistic expectations going forward.

 

[djmich]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

You know your son better than I do, but maybe the pandemic flipped a proverbial switch for your son. Or maybe he was just always destined to be one of those people who suddenly "gets it" as a teenager. Not saying that grade inflation isn't playing a role, but it could be that your son is just actually doing well.

Id say he tries, but he also has a "thats good enough" attitude pretty often. I still feel like the quality of work he is turning in isn't up to the standard of what I was turning in at his age. I was a C student in high school and this is now A level work...?

I hadn't heard the term grade inflation until today. So after a Google, it does seem like that's what is going on. From this Forbes article it seems pretty crazy.

-89% of students get an A or B in Math, English, Social Studies and Science.
-GPAs are up .2-.3 points.
-40% of educators admit to giving a student a better grade than they deserved.

This is all on top of the 2023 senior class having the lowest ACT and SAT scores in the last 30 years.

I worry about the direction these schools are going and if they are really preparing kids for College. Handing out A's in high school with low levels of effort doesn't set realistic expectations going forward.

I’ve also seen data, the grad inflation is crazy. More equal outcomes is a desired outcome.

 

[massraider]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

wow. You gotta be kidding me.

 

[rockaction]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

wow. You gotta be kidding me.

My brother is the head of his town's public school teacher's union. He says it's really not them vs. the town—at all—but them vs. the school board vs. the administrators for the slice of the fixed pie. It's ridiculous.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

wow. You gotta be kidding me.

To be fair, that mirrors business, too, I'd imagine. Profits are up, CEO compensation is way up, worker pay is up slightly. Welcome to America.

 

[massraider]

My brother is the head of his town's public school teacher's union. He says it's really not them vs. the town—at all—but them vs. the school board vs. the administrators for the slice of the fixed pie. It's ridiculous.

The funding issue is real, but clearly it is a combo of factors. Every different possible reason I have seen listed here I have agreed with.

Obviously some districts figure it out. If you have lived anywhere for a long time, and raised kids, you can probably give a rundown on what condition surrounding school systems are in, and how they got there.

And the impact it has on home prices is massive.

 

[SoBeDad]

AI will change the entire teaching industry, public and private. ChatGPT is helping students both cheat and learn, but an AI bot could theoretically help students learn faster and better, with equitable assessments monitored by an AI proctor. This may seem pollyanna and it won't immediately help Max and others, but it's not far off.

My local experience with public schools for my kids, from the 1990s to 2011 was good. They went to public magnet schools, themes in Montessori, foreign language, STEM, which made a difference. I doubt if my youngest would be as fluent in Spanish without the middle school magnet program. The students were selected by a lottery from a big pool of good students. First year of high school, my oldest wasn't selected for the magnet HS, so she spent a year at the local HS which was also decent. What about the kids whose parents didn't apply, or those who were lucky in the lottery? We need good public schools to make sure everyone gets a chance to succeed. A new trend in Florida and other places is the growth of charter schools and now the use of public funds for private schools. That's too political to discuss and I don't we have enough data yet to draw conclusions.

 

[Sand]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

Most of the problem.

 

[Yambag]

14-year middle school educator who left the profession four years ago for many reasons. Low pay, unreasonable demands coming from the Department of Education, politics with the school board, administrators who consistently took the parents side due to fear of repercussion, daily battles with administration over the contract, parents blaming teachers (kids can do no wrong), public bashing the profession, etc, etc. Unfortunately, in my district, I saw many of the top teachers leave as they were determined to get into a better situation, while the ones who were not as strong stuck it out. From talking with others, it seemed like it was not isolated to my area either. It was a tough choice and very disheartening as someone who got into the profession because I believed I could make a difference. I hope it improves and it is nice to hear some positives from other posters, but I am very skeptical.

 

[Max Power]

AI will change the entire teaching industry, public and private. ChatGPT is helping students both cheat and learn, but an AI bot could theoretically help students learn faster and better, with equitable assessments monitored by an AI proctor. This may seem pollyanna and it won't immediately help Max and others, but it's not far off.

AI teachers or teaching aids is an interesting angle I hadn't thought about. I can see the benefit of AI feedback for students if it's a large class.

A common complaint is teachers move at the pace of the slowest students. Having another resource in the classroom that can provide 1 on 1 interaction is a huge win for class size.

 

[djmich]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

wow. You gotta be kidding me.

To be fair, that mirrors business, too, I'd imagine. Profits are up, CEO compensation is way up, worker pay is up slightly. Welcome to America.

I think it depends on which businesses, obviously all are not created equal. If you take the big quasi monopoly type companies or those with wide competitive moats (msft, google, apple, what was Twitter), then yes the administrative middle at those companies can grow relatively unchecked because they can maintain great margins even with a bloated middle. There’s little pain to its growth.

Government doesn’t run on profit and margin rates. The checks on governmental administration are just organically much, much weaker. You make a ton of money in business by driving revenue and profit, administration is organically only added if it aids in that.

Government, including schools, IS administration. You get power and money in government by growing the administration.

 

[FBG Moderator]

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

I’m really sorry to hear this about your children. Sounds like this thread will be less about developmental and social stuff and will veer more towards policy and politics as the thread goes along. I’m not policing. Just so you know.

But damn that sucks, Max. I feel for you and your kids.

Sorry your kids are having to deal with that @Max Power but this is right on the line, Please keep it totally not political and not snarky and we can see if it can survive.

 

[Nugget]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

Most of the problem.

I’d like to see schools run more efficiently, but I’m not sure if administration is the boogeyman.

Administrative Costs as a percentage of budget

Analysis of data published by the U.S. Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics shows 6.7 percent of school districts’ budgets related to administration in 2019-20, the most recent year available. Twenty years earlier, the percentage was 6.6 percent.

 

[NutterButter]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

I would assume great inefficiency like most programs but ignoring that it does seem to (naturally) correlate spending with results. The thing that jumps out at me about these stats is how much more some states are spending. North Carolina is pretty low on both lists.

https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics

Public School Rankings by State 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

More money doesn’t guarantee anything though.

ETA - I just googled and grabbed links. I’m taking the numbers at face value.

#3!!!!!

Hell yeah. Great place to raise a family. Very good public schools and safe neighborhoods.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If you think your schools are great, please add the the detail of what area you live in. And why you think they're great.

Same for if you feel they're not good. Where you are and why.

 

[Ilov80s]

Part of the problem ?

Increase spending and I’ll put money on which line it goes to.

wow. You gotta be kidding me.

My brother is the head of his town's public school teacher's union. He says it's really not them vs. the town—at all—but them vs. the school board vs. the administrators for the slice of the fixed pie. It's ridiculous.

I’ve been on a bargaining team for a pretty large district. Here is my perspective: The school board doesn’t really do anything except give a final thumbs up or down to the contract. The administrators and teachers usually aren’t competing but kind of on the same team in the sense that the better the deal one side gets, the more the other side can ask for. You can’t give the teachers a big raise and then tell your principals they aren’t getting anything. Usually there is a set amount of pie and the fight is more about the district wants to use as much as they can for their pet projects, the teachers union wants as much to go into teacher pockets. Then it’s a give and take about what concessions each side will make for what amount of money. From the teacher perspective, we really do believe paying teachers well benefits the students. Teachers (which also includes counselors, social workers, etc) are the ones directly interacting with the kids. You want them to be happy, dedicated and especially to exist. The market is very competitive now with huge shortages. There are schools that just have tons of open positions filled by unqualified subs because nobody is accepting the jobs. That isn’t good for the school, the teachers, the kids, the parents. The best way to ensure that every open position is filled with a quality person is by offering the most competitive compensation. The district can spend whatever they want on remodeling this, new math computer programs, etc but none of that matters if you have algebra classes being taught by subs who don’t know the material, ELA classes led by subs who struggle with English themselves and open social worker positions so kids with mental health issues have nobody to connect with.

 

[belljr]

If you think your schools are great, please add the the detail of what area you live in. And why you think they're great.

Same for if you feel they're not good. Where you are and why.

Because we are ranked number one or number three in the country depending on which link you use

We just have really good teachers and a tough curriculum for the advanced student

Of course not all teachers are great and we have problem schools also but overall you move to certain areas for certain public schools

 

[Joe Bryant]

If you think your schools are great, please add the the detail of what area you live in. And why you think they're great.

Same for if you feel they're not good. Where you are and why.

Because we are ranked number one or number three in the country depending on which link you use

We just have really good teachers and a tough curriculum for the advanced student

Of course not all teachers are great and we have problem schools also but overall you move to certain areas for certain public schools

Thanks. Where is that?

 

[NutterButter]

If you think your schools are great, please add the the detail of what area you live in. And why you think they're great.

Same for if you feel they're not good. Where you are and why.

Because we are ranked number one or number three in the country depending on which link you use

We just have really good teachers and a tough curriculum for the advanced student

Its pretty nuts the level of study they offer these days. Every high school has a stem program and then there's a far more rigorous program at the county level. There's also similar specialized programs for other areas of study like politics, design, architecture, medical, etc. I grew up in NJ and we had nothing like this.

 

[belljr]

If you think your schools are great, please add the the detail of what area you live in. And why you think they're great.

Same for if you feel they're not good. Where you are and why.

Because we are ranked number one or number three in the country depending on which link you use

We just have really good teachers and a tough curriculum for the advanced student

Its pretty nuts the level of study they offer these days. Every high school has a stem program and then there's a far more rigorous program at the county level. There's also similar specialized programs for other areas of study like politics, design, architecture, medical, etc. I grew up in NJ and we had nothing like this.

Been here all my life and granted I was in a much poorer smaller school but still got a good education but we live in a bigger suburban area as an adult and the level of classes my daughter took and my son took is nowhere close to what I was offered

 

[ghostguy123]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans. I've heard teacher friends of mine talk about changes in the way they are allowed to discipline, such as not being able to send a disruptive kid to the principals office anymore.
So yeah, I'd agree public schools are getting worse for a lot of reasons and for many more than I just named.

 

[the moops]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

That narrows it down. I think we've found the culprit.

 

[Max Power]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans. I've heard teacher friends of mine talk about changes in the way they are allowed to discipline, such as not being able to send a disruptive kid to the principals office anymore.
So yeah, I'd agree public schools are getting worse for a lot of reasons and for many more than I just named.

Decreasing attention spans are a real issue as well. I work hiring and training for my unit and we're having to change things up to accommodate the 20 somethings entering the workforce now. I think young kids struggle even more.

According to research, the average human attention span has decreased significantly in recent years. In 2000, the average attention span was 12 seconds, but by 2015 it had dropped to 8.25 seconds, which is shorter than a goldfish's attention span. When using digital devices, the average attention span has decreased even more, from 2.5 minutes in 2004 to 47 seconds today.

My attention span isn't what it used to be either.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

Thanks. Can you share the links for those?

 

[Ilov80s]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans. I've heard teacher friends of mine talk about changes in the way they are allowed to discipline, such as not being able to send a disruptive kid to the principals office anymore.
So yeah, I'd agree public schools are getting worse for a lot of reasons and for many more than I just named.

Decreasing attention spans are a real issue as well. I work hiring and training for my unit and we're having to change things up to accommodate the 20 somethings entering the workforce now. I think young kids struggle even more.

According to research, the average human attention span has decreased significantly in recent years. In 2000, the average attention span was 12 seconds, but by 2015 it had dropped to 8.25 seconds, which is shorter than a goldfish's attention span. When using digital devices, the average attention span has decreased even more, from 2.5 minutes in 2004 to 47 seconds today.

My attention span isn't what it used to be either.

I agree 100%. Phones totally messed up our ability to focus for long periods of time.

 

[Riffraff]

Not sure if it's great, but I like the newer options / concepts of our local Public School District

Obviously have the standard brick/mortar public schools, but also implemented 'Choice' schools to augment the basic state curriculum with targeted focus on the child's talents.

-- Aspire Performing Arts Academy (grades 6-8)
- band (marching, orchestra, and also group style like rock & roll)
- acting (both drama/TV style and theater/stage)
- singing (both choir and solo)

-- Envision Career Academy (grades 9-12)
- science, tech, engineering, math
- business / marketing / entrepreneurship
- manufacturing
- agriculture
- robotics
- aerospace
- bio medicine

-- Ignite Family Academy (grades K-8)
- Home-schooling

-- Summit Virtual Academy (grades K-12)
- Online

 

[beer 30]

This is rural NC in a decent area.

I was going to ask where but you already answered that upthread. My daughter is a 3rd grade teach in the Fort Mill school system going into year 7. There are a lot of issues within the system, there are a lot of issues with parents & kids, there are a lot of issues with administration and they are losing teachers in the droves because of it. There isn't a magic bullet that is going to fix the problems. Couple examples:
1. D1 been teaching for 7 years, I do here taxes so know how much she makes. This year she is getting a pretty substantial raise this year because 1st year hires would be making more than her. SC routinely puts education at the bottom of the bucket for spending. She is lucky that she teaches in one of the more well to do areas in SC.
2. Without getting into too much detail, she routinely gets kids with issues. She had one last year that would do in appropriate things to themselves all day long regardless of where the student was. Certainly a problem. Because of that, the student had a special dispensation allowing them to take extra time on tests. The student never needed it nor used it last year so D1 recommended dropping it so it could go to another student. Parents pushed back, D1 had to meet with them and admin, admin sided with parents while D1 gets berated by parents. Has occurred numerous times over 7 years. She's had kids swing at her and show back up in class the next day. Admin rarely sides with teachers.
3. The last three years she has had kids dropped in her class that don't speak any English. It happens but now she is kinda known for it so she gets all the kids who can't speak English rather than spreading them around other teachers.

She usually averages 20-23 kids per class. Optimal is probably 18, 20 is doable, 23 is organized chaos and this area builds elementary schools like I've never seen for our size. There are 11 elementary schools with another being built right now. COVID jacked a lot up, I feel for those 3 years of kids going through the system because they are just being pushed through. You would have thought parents would have developed a little empathy for teachers after being stuck with their kids for 2-3 years, it seems they got angrier at the teachers.

 

[AAABatteries]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

ETA - I wanted to come back and point out this isn’t directed at @Max Power - he’s a good guy and doing exactly what a parent should do which is be concerned and involved in his kids life and education. Just more a general observation.

 

[Ilov80s]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

That’s for sure. You can go back and watch
movies like Blackboard Jungle from 1955 and see already then there was a paranoia about how bad schools were and how dangerous, violent and maladjusted the youth had become.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

That’s for sure. You can go back and watch
movies like Blackboard Jungle from 1955 and see already then there was a paranoia about how bad schools were and how dangerous, violent and maladjusted the youth had become.

The problem with this line of argument is that everybody on this forum is old enough to remember the 1990s and the pre-phone era in general. We were grown adults when phones came along, so this isn't just romanticizing the carefree days of the late 1970s. We lived through that experience as adults, and we know that many of the downstream social effects have been bad.

 

[Ilov80s]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

That’s for sure. You can go back and watch
movies like Blackboard Jungle from 1955 and see already then there was a paranoia about how bad schools were and how dangerous, violent and maladjusted the youth had become.

The problem with this line of argument is that everybody on this forum is old enough to remember the 1990s and the pre-phone era in general. We were grown adults when phones came along, so this isn't just romanticizing the carefree days of the late 1970s. We lived through that experience as adults, and we know that many of the downstream social effects have been bad.

Sure but there’s also a lot of downstream effects that are positive.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

That’s for sure. You can go back and watch
movies like Blackboard Jungle from 1955 and see already then there was a paranoia about how bad schools were and how dangerous, violent and maladjusted the youth had become.

The problem with this line of argument is that everybody on this forum is old enough to remember the 1990s and the pre-phone era in general. We were grown adults when phones came along, so this isn't just romanticizing the carefree days of the late 1970s. We lived through that experience as adults, and we know that many of the downstream social effects have been bad.

Phones and their effect on attention spans are one example of a thing that is absolutely true, and not just misrepresented by nostalgia. But I think his comment was more general. And I think he's absolutely right in general and it's extremely prevelant on this forum typically.

 

[AAABatteries]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

That’s for sure. You can go back and watch
movies like Blackboard Jungle from 1955 and see already then there was a paranoia about how bad schools were and how dangerous, violent and maladjusted the youth had become.

The problem with this line of argument is that everybody on this forum is old enough to remember the 1990s and the pre-phone era in general. We were grown adults when phones came along, so this isn't just romanticizing the carefree days of the late 1970s. We lived through that experience as adults, and we know that many of the downstream social effects have been bad.

Phones and their effect on attention spans are one example of a thing that is absolutely true, and not just misrepresented by nostalgia. But I think his comment was more general. And I think he's absolutely right in general and it's extremely prevelant on this forum typically.

I also don’t think it’s an “us” problem - I think it’s just human nature. There’s a reason the old trope of “back in my day…” exists. It much easier to be pessimistic about the future and romanticize the past than to be optimistic but if we look at the trajectory of humans almost all things trend to the positive in aggregate - save maybe what we are doing environmentally.

 

[beer 30]

I worry about a teacher shortage very soon. I know more than a few young teachers who left the profession coming out of the pandemic. People in their 20s and early 30s who just felt like the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and found other jobs before they got too old to find another career.

It's coming, at least around here in SC & NC. My daughter never wanted to do anything else but be a teacher. She was energized, totally excited and eager to get into work force. She graduated from one of the better education degree schools in the southeast (Winthrop) with about 220 kids. Last year I think she said there were less than 100 in the graduating class. Couple that with experienced teachers leaving and there is going to be a shortage that won't be made up quickly.

 

[Max Power]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans.

Class sizes are actually smaller on average now. In the 1950's it was between 35-40 kids on average. In the 90's it was 25 kids. Today the average is around 20 students.

And bad parenting has always been the issue with schools and learning. Not sure there are worse parents now then in previous generations.

I have this generic theory that all our issues and problems are typically either the same or better than years ago but everything is just reported to death and fiercely debated now.

We romanticize about our childhoods and overstate how bad things are now.

ETA - I wanted to come back and point out this isn’t directed at @Max Power - he’s a good guy and doing exactly what a parent should do which is be concerned and involved in his kids life and education. Just more a general observation.

I googled a bit about the state of education in America and it seems like a mixed bag, but generally negative.

This stat from a pew study from 2023 was probably the most alarming thing I read...

Even more troubling, 82% of teachers “say the overall state of public K-12 education has gotten worse in the past five years,” Pew finds. A contributing factor to this perception is undoubtedly the lingering effects of the COVID pandemic. “About eight in ten teachers (among those who have been teaching for at least a year) say the lasting impact of the pandemic on students’ behavior, academic performance, and emotional well-being has been very or somewhat negative,” according to Pew.

Additionally, most teachers don’t see the situation improving any time soon. Only 1-in-5 (20%) teachers “say public K-12 education will be a lot or somewhat better five years from now,” while more than half (53%) “say it will be worse,” reports Pew.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans. I've heard teacher friends of mine talk about changes in the way they are allowed to discipline, such as not being able to send a disruptive kid to the principals office anymore.
So yeah, I'd agree public schools are getting worse for a lot of reasons and for many more than I just named.

I would say parent involvement is way more now than back in the 80's and 90's, there seems to be fewer latch key kids these days and parents take an active part in their child's education.

 

[glvsav37]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I wish I knew. My surface level math says 3 new classrooms at 20ish kids a pop means the school population grew about 60 kids over the year. Overall class size is about 400 kids per grade.

We've had multiple 4+ bedroom developments pop up over the last couple years and houses are sold as soon as they are built.

I think the school had to know the influx was coming. What I don't know is when the school sees the money for the incoming tax revenue. Is it always a year behind?

I'm in NC and our lottery is supposed to help fund education as well. I feel it might be time to re-look at the ratio of that payout.

As for the teacher angle, I don't know why anyone would want a starting teacher salary today. It's 4 years of college for an entry level job. It also feels like the teacher demographic is getting younger at public schools and once a teacher establishes themselves they move on to more financially beneficial openings.

I have not read through the whole thread yet, but I want to point out these 2 points.

1. Not sure about your area, but here in NY, the lotto revenue does go to schools, but whatever is raised from the lotto is just absorbed into the current budget...not ADDING to it. So if the lotto raise $100m in funding, the state says, ok, that is $100m we don't need to pay for. So its not adding to the budget, its just keeping it flat.

Article

According to the Washington Post, one of the biggest problems is that the more the lotteries bring into schools, the more states cut education budgets in anticipation of those windfalls. The Washington Post op-ed states, “Instead of using the money as additional funding, legislatures have used the lottery money to pay for the education budget and spent the money that would have been used had there been no lottery cash on other things.”

In Virginia, the money gained from the lottery is now being used by state lawmakers for regular education expenses rather than additional education funding.

“That’s been a slow and insidious movement that’s been going on for a few years now,” Kitty Boitnott, president of the Virginia Education Association, told the Washington Post. “It’s a big ruse, and I don’t believe Virginians, in general, are aware of it.”

North Carolina school officials agree that lottery money is now a staple of the education budget rather than icing on the cake. Ricky Lopes, assistant superintendent of Cumberland County Schools, told the Fay Observer that lottery funding doesn’t change the expense ratio to improve current conditions but simply maintains a status quo.

“The lottery money didn’t add teachers,” Lopes said. “It replaced existing positions.”

2. My wife has been a NYS Teacher for 25 years. She gets paid very well. NYS is one of the highest paid in the nation. We've thought about relocating b/c I'm not a fan of NY, but unfortunately there is no where we can go and continue to make even close to what she brings home. Now i'm no fan of the teachers union and people give teachers crap for their working schedule, but however you feel, good teachers are vital for continued development of society and in some states they are paid a garbage wage.

 

[MTskibum]

I hate private/charter schools, they have single handedly ruined our elementary school in a matter of 5 years. It was an A rated school a few years ago, but there were a couple charter schools open up and all of the people with means moved their kids. Now there are just 2 classes per grade and the average income of kids in our public school now is way below the average.

I refuse private school so that means we will need to move to a different school district all because of charter schools and all in the last 5 years.

I despise charter/private schooling with the bottom of my heart, and privatization of early education is one of the major downfalls of the united states.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Class sizes are bigger than they used to be. Parenting is worse. The kids grow up on screens and have much worse attention spans. I've heard teacher friends of mine talk about changes in the way they are allowed to discipline, such as not being able to send a disruptive kid to the principals office anymore.
So yeah, I'd agree public schools are getting worse for a lot of reasons and for many more than I just named.

I would say parent involvement is way more now than back in the 80's and 90's, there seems to be fewer latch key kids these days and parents take an active part in their child's education.

Do you mean in your local area or nationwide? If local, where is that?

This one feels nuanced. I have friends who are teachers and they say it varies wildly. Some parents are WAY more involved than in years past. And some are WAY less involved.

Most seem to feel there's a shift in responsibility for educating the student that's moved from the student more to the teacher. A bad grade now can be more easily seen as the teacher's fault and not the student's they say.

I know two young people very closely who quit teaching because the pay wasn't worth the work. (TX and NC) That's a big problem in my opinion.

 

[Kanil]

I didn't read the whole thread but here's my opinion as someone whose wife was a teacher in several different capacities for 16 years.

There are two issues that I see as the problem with today's school systems. They are money, and parents.

Money:

• Teachers who are excellent at what they do tend to have skills that can translate into non-educational fields where they can use those to double, triple, or more their teacher salaries. It's very hard for a parent who is a teacher to say, "I'm going to sacrifice my kid and family having a better life so that I can teach". There is a middle school in my district that opened in 2021 and last year had 42 kids in one of their math classes. This school still had a few empty classrooms but could not find a teacher to fill the open position.
• The amount of money that schools get per child has not kept up with inflation. This means the school systems can't afford to add enough schools/classrooms/teachers/administrators/everything else, to handle all of the kids. This leads to 30+ kids in the classroom.
  • I don't know how many of you have hosted a 12-year old's birthday party, but when my wife and I had 10 kids to keep track of for 3 hours it was pure chaos. Now imagine tripling that and doing it every day for 7 hours. Now imagine doing that for the same pay you can get starting at Mcdonalds.

Parents generally fall into 3 buckets:

• Not involved at all.
  • This is by far the biggest bucket. The number of parents who are not involved in their child's education is staggering. I can't count the number of times my wife came home pissed off because a parent was refusing to even communicate with the school about their child having problems. Hearing her vent over a parent letting their kid fall through the cracks was absolutely heartbreaking. And this was at all different types of schools. From inner city middle schools to high achieving charter schools in a smaller, more affluent city.
  • The second biggest bucket are parents who are involved and helpful (and of course, where all FBG parents fall). While it is the second biggest bucket it's not nearly as large as bucket 1. These are the parents who partner with teachers to benefit their child. Whether this is working to get students that are behind caught up, challenging students who are ahead, or making sure their child in the middle gets what they need. Teachers are extremely thankful for you guys.
  • The third bucket is the saddest. These are the parents who blame the school for everything that happens with their kid. Some real life examples:
    • Kid didn't turn in an assignment? The teacher is specifically targeting the kid by giving them a deadline (the same deadline the rest of the class had).
    • Kid got caught misspelling "F*$^ taechers" on the bathroom wall? The school should have been keeping a better eye on them.
    • Kid A steals kid B's lunch? The school should have just given kid B lunch. It's not Parent A's fault that kid B can't stick up for himself.
    • Kid has dyslexia and is falling behind in reading so the school want's to pull them out of second grade art class to make sure they learn to read? Mon and dad are both in artistic fields and are positive their child is going to grow up to be the next Michaelangelo. Do NOT, under any circumstances take them out of art class. And while you're at it, don't try to pull them from gym class either as the kid really likes gym class. It's the school's fault for not being able to teach their kid how to read.

I'll edit this a bit more in the future but have to go to a meeting...

 

[KarmaPolice]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

With about 50 million kids in k-12 and another 20 million people in college, that’s $13,000 per person so it’s not really that much. Though obviously at college level there’s also tuitions involved. Perhaps how we are spending the money is a bigger issue. I know a district I recently was employed with was spending a ridiculous amount on a lot administrators who imo did absolutely zero to improve any student outcomes.

..and baked into those stats we have to keep in mind that is an average. I am guessing the $/student isn't the same at the various grade levels and also there probably a lot of richer districts that even inflate that number a bit as well.

My experience and observations are that around here it feels like K-12 is for one type of student - those going on to 4 year college. Thinking about my experience vs. what my son's HS looks like (keep in mind that I am only 20mins away from where I grew up now) the things that have been slowly cut down more and more . Gone for the most part are the shop classes, drafting classes, art/music, etc... So on top of your observation later in the conversation about our decreased attention spans we combine that with more and more classes that speak to one type of student. So we have more and more bored kids sitting in a chemistry class that isn't for them, F-ing around and causing a distraction.

No, it's not all of the answer, but I think it's a piece of the puzzle and something that came to mind with your point about HOW we spend the money in the schools. Like you said, administrative bloat is one thing, but here I also see $ spent on football fields and STEM while things like arts/music/shop/etc get the axe. It's like we pretend that everybody has the ability and interest in those STEM classes and the other stuff had 0 benefit to our children and their prospects. Not to mention their enjoyment with school and wanting to contribute to it.

 

[Ilov80s]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

With about 50 million kids in k-12 and another 20 million people in college, that’s $13,000 per person so it’s not really that much. Though obviously at college level there’s also tuitions involved. Perhaps how we are spending the money is a bigger issue. I know a district I recently was employed with was spending a ridiculous amount on a lot administrators who imo did absolutely zero to improve any student outcomes.

..and baked into those stats we have to keep in mind that is an average. I am guessing the $/student isn't the same at the various grade levels and also there probably a lot of richer districts that even inflate that number a bit as well.

My experience and observations are that around here it feels like K-12 is for one type of student - those going on to 4 year college. Thinking about my experience vs. what my son's HS looks like (keep in mind that I am only 20mins away from where I grew up now) the things that have been slowly cut down more and more . Gone for the most part are the shop classes, drafting classes, art/music, etc... So on top of your observation later in the conversation about our decreased attention spans we combine that with more and more classes that speak to one type of student. So we have more and more bored kids sitting in a chemistry class that isn't for them, F-ing around and causing a distraction.

No, it's not all of the answer, but I think it's a piece of the puzzle and something that came to mind with your point about HOW we spend the money in the schools. Like you said, administrative bloat is one thing, but here I also see $ spent on football fields and STEM while things like arts/music/shop/etc get the axe. It's like we pretend that everybody has the ability and interest in those STEM classes and the other stuff had 0 benefit to our children and their prospects. Not to mention their enjoyment with school and wanting to contribute to it.

Totally agree. Here in Michigan, we have 2 required State curriculum and all these kids taking algebra 2 who hate it and will never ever need it. Most of the math teachers hate teaching it and think it’s a waste of time as well. At least in Michigan we need to offer more alternatives to the college bound stem approach imo.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I like to use an anecdotal story to state my opinion on why schools arent as effective anymore per dollar.

My son got hit in the back of the head during class by a die cast toy car once. A kid in his class had all sorts of problems. He was allowed to have said toy with him at all times. He had a person assigned to him that also sat in the class. He got mad and threw the die cast toy.

The most ridiculous consequence of this incident was it led to many discussions about class setup. Why would kids be in rows all facing one direction? Maybe if we had all the kids facing each other that would be better. It wasnt fair that this kid was in the back of the class, etc etc.

We arent a serious people. We stopped being serious long ago and of course public education in certain areas would be a casualty of that kind of a mindset.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I hate private/charter schools, they have single handedly ruined our elementary school in a matter of 5 years. It was an A rated school a few years ago, but there were a couple charter schools open up and all of the people with means moved their kids. Now there are just 2 classes per grade and the average income of kids in our public school now is way below the average.

I refuse private school so that means we will need to move to a different school distract all because of charter schools and all in the last 5 years.

I despise charter/private schooling with the bottom of my heart, and privatization of early education is one of the major downfalls of the united states.

If we can do it without being political, I think a private vs public school discussion can be useful.

I was public school for all my education. I never even knew anyone from private school.

My 4 (now young adult) kids all went to public school and it was good. But there is a fairly prominent private school segment where I live in TN. Some of it's religious. Some of it's more prestige / academic.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I hate private/charter schools, they have single handedly ruined our elementary school in a matter of 5 years. It was an A rated school a few years ago, but there were a couple charter schools open up and all of the people with means moved their kids. Now there are just 2 classes per grade and the average income of kids in our public school now is way below the average.

I refuse private school so that means we will need to move to a different school distract all because of charter schools and all in the last 5 years.

I despise charter/private schooling with the bottom of my heart, and privatization of early education is one of the major downfalls of the united states.

If we can do it without being political, I think a private vs public school discussion can be useful.

I was public school for all my education. I never even knew anyone from private school.

My 4 (now young adult) kids all went to public school and it was good. But there is a fairly prominent private school segment where I live in TN. Some of it's religious. Some of it's more prestige / academic.

Probably a good idea to distinguish between these types as well. When I was growing up, everybody in my community either went to the local public schools or the local catholic schools. That was it. Our private schools were only religious, and nobody seriously thought that one was "better" than the other academically.

I have no experience with charter schools of any kind, but I imagine that they would affect local school districts much more strongly than catholic/christian/whatever schools. The latter have inherently limited appeal that isn't necessarily the case for secular private alternatives.