Public Schools are getting worse (1 Viewer)

[Harry Manback]

There has been a concerted effort to dismantle and defund public education and it's sad.

 

[Ilov80s]

I agree with Joe that looking at a state level makes sense for funding and such but the difference between schools and school districts can be pretty stark in a matter of miles.

For sure. I can give one example that shows just how complex it is. A district I used to work at has 3 high schools. 2 of them are lower middle class/working class with lots of issues with behavior, truancy, etc. The third school is middle to upper middle class, much more affluent. They don’t have the fights and other issues. The third school has a far better graduation rate, test scores, etc. It’s just not even close. So two teachers could teach the same class in the same district sharing the same material, lessons, etc but it’s like working in 2 different worlds. The funny part is that most people in the district who have been around awhile actually think the wealthier school has the worst culture and is actually the less pleasant place to be. So yeah it’s incredibly complex.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm 52. My brain was fully developed -- and had been for a long time -- before I got my first cell phone. If I'm being honest with myself, my attention span has definitely degraded since then. I used to be the kind of person who could sit there and read quietly for a couple of hours at a time. That is not the case anymore. Some of that is probably age-related, but it's really the constant dopamine hit that comes from social media. A bunch of my colleagues have reported the same experience, so it's not just me.

Well, if cell phones and social media can reduce attention spans in grown adults, surely they're that much more impactful on kids whose brains are still developing. Right? I think it would take quite a bit of very high-quality evidence to talk me out of this hypothesis.

For sure, and I think this is the disconnect that too many people have. I think we as a society were too permissive with this new tech, and parents especially since they might not have seen the negative effects themselves or could put it down easier than the kids/teens.

I am not too old to remember what HS was like and all the dumb stuff I said and did at that age. I can not imagine my brain with a phone in my hand and having more trouble breaking away from the b.s. that is HS and all the crap that goes with it.

 

[rockaction]

Without totally derailing the thread, I used to watch endless movies. All the time. I know anecdotes aren't data*, but I can't even watch a movie anymore since high-speed internet really came into bloom. It's been twenty years. Having that thing in your pocket given its development into a communication/entertainment machine?

My attention span is utter you-know-what. I can't imagine developing minds aren't affected. Take them away from 14 year-olds, please!

*I just learned that phrase from social media (I'll leave it unattributed) last night. How nice!

 

[KarmaPolice]

Without totally derailing the thread, I used to watch endless movies. All the time. I know anecdotes aren't data*, but I can't even watch a movie anymore since high-speed internet really came into bloom. It's been twenty years. Having that thing in your pocket given its development into a communication/entertainment machine?

My attention span is utter you-know-what. I can't imagine developing minds aren't affected. Take them away from 14 year-olds, please!

*I just learned that phrase from social media (I'll leave it unattributed) last night. How nice!

I feel myself getting to that point, and i consider myself a phone hermit. I am on here, and for work one of the young punks got us on discord for communications. Compared to most, its a very limited amount of stuff to be distracted by, but its still an issue.

More and more i put my phone elsewhere, especially if i am trying to read or watch a movie, and even that i feel the "stress" as someone is trying to ask me something and i am not responding.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Without totally derailing the thread, I used to watch endless movies. All the time. I know anecdotes aren't data*, but I can't even watch a movie anymore since high-speed internet really came into bloom. It's been twenty years. Having that thing in your pocket given its development into a communication/entertainment machine?

My attention span is utter you-know-what. I can't imagine developing minds aren't affected. Take them away from 14 year-olds, please!

*I just learned that phrase from social media (I'll leave it unattributed) last night. How nice!

Haha. Our social media circles overlap just enough that I know (I think) exactly what post you're referring to.

I still watch a ton of movies, but I do find myself reaching for my phone "just to check" when the plot slows down.

 

[Ilov80s]

Without totally derailing the thread, I used to watch endless movies. All the time. I know anecdotes aren't data*, but I can't even watch a movie anymore since high-speed internet really came into bloom. It's been twenty years. Having that thing in your pocket given its development into a communication/entertainment machine?

My attention span is utter you-know-what. I can't imagine developing minds aren't affected. Take them away from 14 year-olds, please!

*I just learned that phrase from social media (I'll leave it unattributed) last night. How nice!

Yeah I love movies, you know that but I often struggle with it. I used to be a big reader too. A book every week or 2. I haven’t finished a book all year. It sucks.

 

[Kev4029]

I am a product of private school education all the way from 1st grade through College. Tomorrow begins my 34th year teaching in a public school classroom. I live in the community where I teach, and my own 2 children graduated from the school where I teach. In fact, we moved to this community in large part for the schools. Suffice it to say I have seen a lot through the years good, bad, and ugly. I know of public schools that are fantastic (like the one I am part of) and I know of public schools that are a hot mess. I know of private schools that are fantastic, and I know of private schools that are well below par. There are so many factors and moving parts...finances, leadership, community values, home life, etc... that contribute to the well being of a school district that it is difficult to make sweeping generalizations. Much of Jayrod's description of his wife's situation could probably be echoed for my district as well. The school leadership values the staff. Good teaching involves creating the conditions for student learning to happen. Similarly, good administration creates the conditions and culture for teachers to accomplish that goal. Don't underestimate the power of good leadership.

Are public schools getting worse? In some ways, I am sure they are. Although I am part of a great district we are not without problems. I see the things that people have discussed in this thread like grade inflation, overcrowding, lack of student accountability in my school as well. We are not immune. But in some ways schools have gotten better over the years. There is greater emphasis of the process of learning, giving students voice in their learning, individualized instruction designed to target student needs, systems of intervention to support learning, emphasis on collaboration, empathy, resilience, and critical thinking rather than grades etc...

Also, would love to hear any thoughts on practical ideas on how to improve public schools.

And do you have thoughts on cell phones / social media in schools and for young people in general?

This is a bigger problem than just improving public schools. Generally, kids with more parental involvement in their education at home are much more successful students. Parental involvement at home is tied to so many societal/cultural things (education level, income, home situation, priorities, how the parents were raised) that it's hard to address without a huge shift in our society. For instance, kids that have parents who read to them regularly before getting into elementary school have significantly more phonemic awareness, a larger vocabulary, and significantly more background knowledge - there was a study that kids who had their parents read 5 books a day to them had heard 1.4 million more words than kids that didn't have their parents read to them. There have also been a number of studies that show kids of higher income typically gain educationally during the summer while lower income kids regress rather significantly over the summer.

With that said, I think there are a number of things that need improvement at public schools:

• Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.
• Better boundaries between teachers and parents - I don't know exactly how to solve this, but too many parents are trying to have too much influence over the specifics of the classroom. Upset and entitled parents are a huge reason for burnout for teachers.
• More support for higher-needs students - more special education teachers, more mental health experts, more specialists (reading/math interventionists), and more full time support for the very high needs kids. If a teacher has a classroom of 25 kids, it's hard to challenge the high learners while supporting the low learners, while managing any high-needs students, while also teaching to the majority of the students. Teachers need more support of the top and bottom 15% of kids.
• More funding for technology and specials (music, PE, art, etc.). Specials give kids both an outlet and challenge different parts of their education. Technology helps teachers, parents, and students.
• Remove politics from education - let the education experts be in charge of things like curriculum and staffing, not people with political agendas.

I also don't think public schools on the whole are probably any worse than they were 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, they're just different. Like many things in the world that people view as going to ****, the combination of the media (to get that sweet ad revenue) and politicians (to get your vote) are using fear and anxiety to get attention. There are probably places in the US where education has legitimately slipped, but there are more places where the education system is better than it has ever been.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

While it's not a perfect corollary, teacher salaries in the school district are an indication of the district's commitment to education. The quality of the buildings, the elective offerings, and the theater & arts programs also contribute, but if you want to look at your district's commitment to education, start by looking at what they're paying the teachers.

For example, the median teacher salary in Syosset, NY on Long Island is $144,000. That's the median salary, and that includes elementary, middle and high school teachers. The high school teachers who are teaching classes that end with a Regents exam can easily be pushing $200K. Here is a link to the teacher salaries for each school district in NY State:

NY State Teacher Salaries

Re: grade inflation. This is why standardized testing is important. In NY State, to earn a Regents diploma or higher, students are required to take a Regents exam in several to many classes. Math, Science, English, History are subjects that have Regents exams, and within each discipline there may be several exams (Math consists of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 for example). I bring this up because standardized testing is one way to combat grade inflation. If Johnny gets a 95 on all his math tests, but then gets an 80 on the Regents, well something is fishy with Johnny's math teacher. That's a basic example meant to provide the gist. There are ways to combat everyone just getting a 95, if people are willing to commit to being truthful. If your district doesn't have standardized testing, or grades on a 4.0 scale (don't get me started), you may question why that is, and who benefits from that (hint: it's not the students).

Like most things in life, one gets what they pay for. Do your research. What I find humorous in these discussions is most everyone thinks that their school district is great, but then lists the individual issues like lack of good teachers or sub-standard facilities. I get it, that's human nature. But people should make honest assessments when it comes to educational choices and not just gaslight themselves into thinking their district is great because that's where they live. Kudos to all parents here who are making the best choices for their family based on their circumstances.

 

[MAC_32]

Better boundaries between teachers and parents - I don't know exactly how to solve this, but too many parents are trying to have too much influence over the specifics of the classroom. Upset and entitled parents are a huge reason for burnout for teachers.

Great posting, and I have a very unpopular opinion on this item- looser communication expectations. Karen may email a teacher, admin, or other school rep 1 or more times per day. As is, policy varies school-to-school, but generally speaking the expectation is a timely response (usually within one day weekend's excluded).

Abolish that expectation and replace with (paraphrasing) teacher is expected to timely address parent concerns. 'Address' can mean a reply or forward to admin with a cc of the parent. 'Thank you for reaching out. I appreciate the urgency expressed in your concern. I have forwarded to ___ to align the school's response.' Admin is then not required to respond to said parent. The short term outcome of more upset Karen's is worth the benefits derived with teachers spend more time on educating our young people and less on yentas like her.

 

[Manster]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

 

[glvsav37]

NY State Teacher Salaries

I have many objections to the public school system here, but I also don't bite the hand that feeds me lol
GB being married to a NYS (Middle Country) teacher with close to 25 years in.

 

[glvsav37]

kinda off topic...but I would love to see full-year school.

we can stil ldo the standard 180 days in class, but I would close up the summer break and spread out those days throughout the year.

Many kids become slugs in the summer, and I know my wife spends a good month reteaching what they forgot by the time September comes around.

It would also help working people who need to find childcare for 2 months straight. Watching kids on a staggered schedule wouldn't be such a large burden.

Plus, I think it could have positive effects on things like tourism and travel as we don't need to wait for that one 'universal" spring break season. We could spread out the times off and give people a chance to travel w/o the whole mass traveling at the same time.

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

Like everything, comes down to local leadership. One district for years had a really good super and board. Their theory was pay teachers well and we will get first choice on the best teachers when hiring while also saving a lot of money for our rainy day fund. Then leadership changed over time and they saw all the money saved up and decided to use it for all these little projects they wanted. While many of the projects were nice, many weren't really needed IMO. Well when the recession came, the district didn't have anything really saved up and the teachers had to take years of pay freezes. All the best teachers (myself included) left over the next 5-10 years for districts offering more money. It's been 15 years and they just finally recovered from that and able to offer really competitive wages for teachers. Another district had all this (fat) administration. When the recession came, they had to eliminate a ton of it. Well as the economy has recovered, they haven't just added positions back but are adding more and more...meanwhile they are starting to lose good teachers because other districts are passing them up with salaries or being more aggressive in poaching them.

 

[Ilov80s]

kinda off topic...but I would love to see full-year school.

we can stil ldo the standard 180 days in class, but I would close up the summer break and spread out those days throughout the year.

Many kids become slugs in the summer, and I know my wife spends a good month reteaching what they forgot by the time September comes around.

It would also help working people who need to find childcare for 2 months straight. Watching kids on a staggered schedule wouldn't be such a large burden.

Plus, I think it could have positive effects on things like tourism and travel as we don't need to wait for that one 'universal" spring break season. We could spread out the times off and give people a chance to travel w/o the whole mass traveling at the same time.

I generally like this. The only real inconvenicence I see is with remodeling. There are lots of big projects that require the whole summer (and usually still don't get done) to work on that would seriously disrupt the operation of the school- like remodeling science labs, updating the cafeteria and kitchen, new media center,new floors, etc.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.

I hear this all the time and my hot take is "teaching to a test" is mostly a myth

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test. Sure there are ways to improve scores by evaluating when is it worthwhile to guess, etc, but none of that gets you to ace it and none of it is bad to teach.

 

[dnurk]

Couldn't agree more with the practical education stuff.

Several years ago, a nearby rural high school reached out to me and asked me to "teach" a presentation on how to apply for a job. It was real-life practical stuff. Lots of stuff that seemed like it should be obvious but wasn't. We videoed "job interviews" I gave them at the first of the semester and then again at the end of the semester and the improvement was remarkable.

I don't know how common that sort of thing is, but I thought it was a great idea from the school.

I've long been a proponent of this but everyone looks at you sideways when you suggest it. Look, not every kid can or should go to college (insert obligatory ditch digger joke). The HS both my kids went to had a course that taught real life finances like making a budget, balancing a checkbook, what to do with your money beyond subscribing to streaming services or buying video games. Both my kids scoffed at it when I told them they should take the class.

I think we also suffer from a lack of trade schools as an option for kids that don't have a desire to go to college. We had a great trade school when I was in HS in the 80's that serviced 5-6 different HS's around the area. Welding, mechanic, carpentry, electrician, plumbing, HVAC...all the good trades. I don't see them anywhere these days. What's a kid supposed to do? Either learn on their own, know somebody in the business, help with the family business, etc. Maybe they are still out there but I don't know of any in this area.

They still exist and probably need more attention. My son is a college bound HS senior but several of his friends are taking welding through this career center. It serves high schools for 3 counties in and around Indianapolis. Tremendous programs. https://www.jelcc.com

 

[Kev4029]

Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.

I hear this all the time and my hot take is "teaching to a test" is mostly a myth

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test. Sure there are ways to improve scores by evaluating when is it worthwhile to guess, etc, but none of that gets you to ace it and none of it is bad to teach.

My wife's previous school district as a teacher had their annual raises tied, in part, to student growth on whatever the district's chosen standardized test was. The curriculum was absolutely tailored to the test. Like you said, you can't completely teach to a test, but you can definitely make educational decisions on what is going to be taught based on that.

 

[dnurk]

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Getting ready to start year 32 teaching math in a smaller high school in Washington state. A few things I think...

1. I love my job.
2. Would do it for less money. My salary went up significantly over the past five years.
3. Students in my district have wildly diverse opportunities. Both academic and occupational.
4. Lots of great parents. Some terrible ones. Either way, I put in a big effort to remind myself that kids don't get to pick their parents.
5. I don't close the door on a kids opportunity, ever. There's always a way forward.
6. Admin have a horrible job. They've been handcuffed by policy, laws, and fear of parents.
7. The schools in my county are all great. Very similar. Way better than what I remember as a kid in the 80s.
8. Cell phones are problem for kids. Highly recommend the book "The Anxious Generation". We're going to see more and more schools outright ban smart phones.
9. Education funding varies wildly from state to state. It can have a big impact on failing, surviving, or thriving.

Last note: I just spend two years teaching in a wealthy private international school in China. Wealthy asian parents are the bomb. They work hard making sure their kids work hard. Really going to miss the asian parents.

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Thanks for the insights and sharing. And thanks for being a teacher as the world needs more like you.

Please drop the "fong you" shtick (kick/whip?) though as that doesn't help real discussion.

I do think the personal responsibility part is and can be an interesting discussion. Context matters a lot and that usually gets dismissed in discussions. Obviously a high school senior had more expected responsibility than a 1st grader. How that plays out is super interesting I think.

Also completely with you on the cell phones. We've talked a good bit about Jonathan Haidt and social media for kids. Would love to hear more from you there as you're on the front lines with is https://forums.footballguys.com/thr...llowing-social-media-for-young-people.812226/

I wish Cell phones were banned from the classroom, but I just don't see it happening. My wife used to substitute and had issues with kids playing on their phones during class. She'd echo what many others have already said about "some parents" vs school administration. There are some parents who are 100% committed to their child having their phone on them and turned on at all times. Its a non-negotiable for various reasons. They become the loudest voice in the room and schools tend to cave to it. Once they cave to one parent, they cave to them all.

Phones in the classroom is a very difficult policy to navigate from my outsider point of view. I'd support some form of a cubby system off to the side or even a teacher taking a phone from a student when it becomes a disruption. Admittedly taking a phone away has the potential to escalate. I'm in favor of that, but also like I said in the OP, when the principle of my daughter's middle school went through her phone without a parent involved... That was 200% over the line in my book.

Indiana passed a law this Spring basically banning them during class. Very popular with parents. Kids not so much https://www.chalkbeat.org/indiana/2024/03/12/cell-phones-in-school-banned-for-students/

 

[Kev4029]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.

I hear this all the time and my hot take is "teaching to a test" is mostly a myth

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test. Sure there are ways to improve scores by evaluating when is it worthwhile to guess, etc, but none of that gets you to ace it and none of it is bad to teach.

My wife's previous school district as a teacher had their annual raises tied, in part, to student growth on whatever the district's chosen standardized test was. The curriculum was absolutely tailored to the test. Like you said, you can't completely teach to a test, but you can definitely make educational decisions on what is going to be taught based on that.

Is this bad? Presumably "the test" is testing students over stuff that they really ought to know and/or skills that they really ought to have developed. If that's the case, then "teaching to the test" seems like a good thing. If that isn't the case, then test just sucks and we should replace it something more aligned with our learning outcomes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

This exact same argument comes up all the time in higher ed too. When people talk about the need to cut back on administration, it's always good to ask them specifically which positions they're talking about.

I mean, obviously we're still going to have department chairs, academic deans, a provost, etc., just like you'll always have a principal and a superintendent. Those people aren't where the growth in spending is coming from. The reason why admin spending has blown up is because of two types of employees:

1) Staff members who do some technical, back-of-house job that faculty don't even know exists. E.g. the people who make sure that scholarships get routed to students who were awarded them, the guy who supervises our entire night janitorial staff (hundreds of people who are totally invisible to folks like me), the lady who writes contracts for study abroad programs, the person who handles visiting talent at the performing arts center, etc.

2) Staff members whose main job is making sure we're complying with some law or policy. That's the entire TIX office, several people in financial aid, about half of everyone in grants and contracts, an uncertain number of people in facilities and services, a person or two at UPD, etc. We absolutely must have those people, even if I don't like the regulation that we're hiring them to comply with.

If you want to cut back on administration, you need to greatly reduce the amount of regulation and oversight that we are subject to. That simply isn't going to happen, and regardless it's not our fault.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Okay, we also employ quite a few more admissions people and quite a few more professional advisors than we used to. If faculty would like to spend more of their time doing recruiting visits and helping students figure out which general education classes best fit their spirit animal, then we can probably find some savings. But strangely, I have never encountered a faculty member who wanted to spend more time on that stuff.

 

[Kev4029]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

This exact same argument comes up all the time in higher ed too. When people talk about the need to cut back on administration, it's always good to ask them specifically which positions they're talking about.

I mean, obviously we're still going to have department chairs, academic deans, a provost, etc., just like you'll always have a principal and a superintendent. Those people aren't where the growth in spending is coming from. The reason why admin spending has blown up is because of two types of employees:

1) Staff members who do some technical, back-of-house job that faculty don't even know exists. E.g. the people who make sure that scholarships get routed to students who were awarded them, the guy who supervises our entire night janitorial staff (hundreds of people who are totally invisible to folks like me), the lady who writes contracts for study abroad programs, the person who handles visiting talent at the performing arts center, etc.

2) Staff members whose main job is making sure we're complying with some law or policy. That's the entire TIX office, several people in financial aid, about half of everyone in grants and contracts, an uncertain number of people in facilities and services, a person or two at UPD, etc. We absolutely must have those people, even if I don't like the regulation that we're hiring them to comply with.

If you want to cut back on administration, you need to greatly reduce the amount of regulation and oversight that we are subject to. That simply isn't going to happen, and regardless it's not our fault.

That's where I was going with my questioning, and I completely agree with you. The change in public/parent expectations and regulation has to account for the vast majority of the changes.

 

[Kev4029]

Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.

I hear this all the time and my hot take is "teaching to a test" is mostly a myth

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test. Sure there are ways to improve scores by evaluating when is it worthwhile to guess, etc, but none of that gets you to ace it and none of it is bad to teach.

My wife's previous school district as a teacher had their annual raises tied, in part, to student growth on whatever the district's chosen standardized test was. The curriculum was absolutely tailored to the test. Like you said, you can't completely teach to a test, but you can definitely make educational decisions on what is going to be taught based on that.

Is this bad? Presumably "the test" is testing students over stuff that they really ought to know and/or skills that they really ought to have developed. If that's the case, then "teaching to the test" seems like a good thing. If that isn't the case, then test just sucks and we should replace it something more aligned with our learning outcomes.

I suppose it depends on how much you trust a board of people putting together a standard test for a huge number of kids vs a district, school, or teacher's ability to adapt to their population. This may be especially true in the shadow of Covid where many kids lost a large portion of a calendar year of real school and are still playing catchup.

I think in an ideal world, teaching towards a test wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but in the real world it probably negatively affects the high and low learners who are not properly challenged by the curriculum. I understand the desire for a baseline of competence for kids so parents and administration can keep tabs on teachers and students, but I just don't think it's an effective or accurate judgement on either.

 

[rockaction]

Without totally derailing the thread, I used to watch endless movies. All the time. I know anecdotes aren't data*, but I can't even watch a movie anymore since high-speed internet really came into bloom. It's been twenty years. Having that thing in your pocket given its development into a communication/entertainment machine?

My attention span is utter you-know-what. I can't imagine developing minds aren't affected. Take them away from 14 year-olds, please!

*I just learned that phrase from social media (I'll leave it unattributed) last night. How nice!

Haha. Our social media circles overlap just enough that I know (I think) exactly what post you're referring to.

I still watch a ton of movies, but I do find myself reaching for my phone "just to check" when the plot slows down.

I sort of thought of you when I threw it out there and had a funny feeling you'd know what and who. I actually would have bet that you'd know what I was talking about. (That's why I left it unattributed, too!). That's funny. Peace, IK.

 

[glvsav37]

Quit teaching to a standardized test. In the attempt to better track growth of kids throughout their education, standardized semi-annual testing has become the norm in the US. Standardized testing isn't worthless, but using it as the majority of the "proof" of our kids' education is ridiculous and counter productive to the actually idea of educating kids.

I hear this all the time and my hot take is "teaching to a test" is mostly a myth

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test. Sure there are ways to improve scores by evaluating when is it worthwhile to guess, etc, but none of that gets you to ace it and none of it is bad to teach.

My wife's previous school district as a teacher had their annual raises tied, in part, to student growth on whatever the district's chosen standardized test was. The curriculum was absolutely tailored to the test. Like you said, you can't completely teach to a test, but you can definitely make educational decisions on what is going to be taught based on that.

My wife's school tried this as well, but with the idea of stripping tenure and cutting teachers. Then someone said "well what about the music, art and phys ed teachers who are not teaching anything on the standardized tests?"

Their solution was to "Grade" the phys ed teachers based on the students MATH scores and the "Art/Music" teachers on the ENGLISH scores. As if a gym teacher has any effect on a kids academic ability...and ran the risk of getting fired because of it??

 

[rockaction]

There is no cheat code to acing a standardized test.

There actually was on the LSAT back when I took it in 2005 and that was called the contrapositive in if/then statements. In addition to that, there are certain ways the test will ask a question that make it easy to prep for if you have money and know ish.

I'm not kidding. The first (!) time I took the LSAT, I had a bowel eruption from three bowls of Raisin Bran that morning. I also had a question on a logic/quant (they don't call it quant, but deductions are pretty much quant) that had no correct answer. I spent a minute on it and should have moved on. But given the earlier bowel movement, I knew I was cancelling the exam, so I fooled around with it. It had no answer. And this sounds cocky, but I know to this day that it didn't, and I know that because when I talked to Kaplan I told them the experimental section was Section Two. They track that with professional test-takers (who they employ and send) and told me I was right. They asked how I knew and I told them.

Now, that sounds like I think I'm something else, but that's not it at all. The point is, I had taken every (every!) available LSAT that had been used up until my section of the test. I just knew the question was wrong in wording and logic, and that was that.

You can prep for a test. There's no doubt in my mind. There are cheat codes.

 

[Galileo]

Thank you and thanks for being a teacher. I'm glad to know the students have someone like you. What area of the country?

Busy day, just getting around to seeing this. I am in Northeast Ohio

Also, would love to hear any thoughts on practical ideas on how to improve public schools.

Get rid of grades. This is much easier said than done, so maybe it does not fit your "practical" criteria, but I think it is doable. I know we are always looking for ways to measure progress and compare one kid to another, but grades create many obstacles to true learning. Students and parents get so grade focused that they lose sight of what learning is all about. Everything becomes a points game rather than learning experience. They manipulate the system to do what it takes to earn meaningless and arbitrary points without regard to whether they are developing thinking skills, resilience, collaboration skills and such that will prepare them for a flexible future that isn't content driven. Students take less rigorous coursework than their potential allows for fear of lower GPAs. For many, the sky is falling if they get a B. Grades are the primary motivator and they shouldn't be. How do you break this cycle? One simply can't just flip a switch. It has to come through a gradual evolution of the culture. Something that starts in the early years so that the manic dependency on points/grades doesn't develop in the first place. Shift the emphasis to skills and competencies that prepare learners for the next steps. The vision and philosophy with my school district is to view the schools as a greenhouse...focus on creating the conditions necessary for the roots to thrive and the learners will grow. The roots at the cornerstone of our lesson design fall into 6 categories. In no particular order...critical thinking, resilience, collaboration, empathy, innovation, and balance. If we as educators focus on creating learning environments with those things at the core, learners will grow. Things like standardized testing results, a necessary evil due to legislative influences, are the flowers...the products of creating the right conditions for learning to occur. This whole greenhouse metaphor may sound a little corny, but it works. Our district has had great success on state testing, AP testing, and the like, but we don't teach to the tests. They are the product of our work.

What may be even more difficult, is finding ways for learners to progress at a pace and sequence that is right for them. We are very rigid in our thinking about grade level (generally tied to age) instead of skill level. Some are passed along before they are ready...other have their potential progress hindered because the system isn't set up to move them along. If we want to be serious about meeting the needs of individual learners there needs to be greater flexibility. The model of putting 25-30 kids in a room together and trying to target them all is difficult. But, the more individualized instruction becomes, the more resources are needed. I am starting to veer into more complex waters here, but until we tackle those kinds of issues schools will continue to be perceived as failing, especially at the lower and higher ends of the achievement spectrum.

And do you have thoughts on cell phones / social media in schools and for young people in general?

The issue is starting to be directed from above and through legislation. The state of Ohio has mandated that schools develop cell phone policies to have in place for the 2025-26 school year. This affords schools some time to figure out how they will tackle the problem. I have a pocket holder system in my room and students are expected to put their phones into the pocket holder when they come to class. If they do not, and I see the phone out for unauthorized reasons, I confiscate the phone and turn it into the office. This year, our school is trying to make that common practice across all classrooms. The office is starting to track infractions with escalating consequences for having your phone confiscated. I say "unauthorized use" because frankly there are times I want students to use their phones. It can be a convenient tool in the physics classroom...taking video of an experimental trial to improve measurement, use as a timing device, measuring angles of incline, etc... So there are times I will tell students to feel free to use their phones. Starting this year, students are not permitted to take there phones when they leave class to use the restroom. They are not permitted in study halls. We are trying to implement practices now in anticipation of the impending state directed initiatives. I should mention that all students at our school are issued a Chromebook, so they do have access to things without needing their cell phones. I do think cell phone restriction is a good thing, but honestly, they still find ways to connect and get into mischief with the Chromebooks, so I am not sure how effective all the cell phone policies will be at eliminating the undesired behaviors that come with them.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thank you and thanks for being a teacher. I'm glad to know the students have someone like you. What area of the country?

Busy day, just getting around to seeing this. I am in Northeast Ohio

Also, would love to hear any thoughts on practical ideas on how to improve public schools.

Get rid of grades. This is much easier said than done, so maybe it does not fit your "practical" criteria, but I think it is doable. I know we are always looking for ways to measure progress and compare one kid to another, but grades create many obstacles to true learning. Students and parents get so grade focused that they lose sight of what learning is all about. Everything becomes a points game rather than learning experience. They manipulate the system to do what it takes to earn meaningless and arbitrary points without regard to whether they are developing thinking skills, resilience, collaboration skills and such that will prepare them for a flexible future that isn't content driven. Students take less rigorous coursework than their potential allows for fear of lower GPAs. For many, the sky is falling if they get a B. Grades are the primary motivator and they shouldn't be. How do you break this cycle? One simply can't just flip a switch. It has to come through a gradual evolution of the culture. Something that starts in the early years so that the manic dependency on points/grades doesn't develop in the first place. Shift the emphasis to skills and competencies that prepare learners for the next steps. The vision and philosophy with my school district is to view the schools as a greenhouse...focus on creating the conditions necessary for the roots to thrive and the learners will grow. The roots at the cornerstone of our lesson design fall into 6 categories. In no particular order...critical thinking, resilience, collaboration, empathy, innovation, and balance. If we as educators focus on creating learning environments with those things at the core, learners will grow. Things like standardized testing results, a necessary evil due to legislative influences, are the flowers...the products of creating the right conditions for learning to occur. This whole greenhouse metaphor may sound a little corny, but it works. Our district has had great success on state testing, AP testing, and the like, but we don't teach to the tests. They are the product of our work.

What may be even more difficult, is finding ways for learners to progress at a pace and sequence that is right for them. We are very rigid in our thinking about grade level (generally tied to age) instead of skill level. Some are passed along before they are ready...other have their potential progress hindered because the system isn't set up to move them along. If we want to be serious about meeting the needs of individual learners there needs to be greater flexibility. The model of putting 25-30 kids in a room together and trying to target them all is difficult. But, the more individualized instruction becomes, the more resources are needed. I am starting to veer into more complex waters here, but until we tackle those kinds of issues schools will continue to be perceived as failing, especially at the lower and higher ends of the achievement spectrum.

And do you have thoughts on cell phones / social media in schools and for young people in general?

The issue is starting to be directed from above and through legislation. The state of Ohio has mandated that schools develop cell phone policies to have in place for the 2025-26 school year. This affords schools some time to figure out how they will tackle the problem. I have a pocket holder system in my room and students are expected to put their phones into the pocket holder when they come to class. If they do not, and I see the phone out for unauthorized reasons, I confiscate the phone and turn it into the office. This year, our school is trying to make that common practice across all classrooms. The office is starting to track infractions with escalating consequences for having your phone confiscated. I say "unauthorized use" because frankly there are times I want students to use their phones. It can be a convenient tool in the physics classroom...taking video of an experimental trial to improve measurement, use as a timing device, measuring angles of incline, etc... So there are times I will tell students to feel free to use their phones. Starting this year, students are not permitted to take there phones when they leave class to use the restroom. They are not permitted in study halls. We are trying to implement practices now in anticipation of the impending state directed initiatives. I should mention that all students at our school are issued a Chromebook, so they do have access to things without needing their cell phones. I do think cell phone restriction is a good thing, but honestly, they still find ways to connect and get into mischief with the Chromebooks, so I am not sure how effective all the cell phone policies will be at eliminating the undesired behaviors that come with them.

Awesome. Thank you.

 

[Manster]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

Super,

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

This exact same argument comes up all the time in higher ed too. When people talk about the need to cut back on administration, it's always good to ask them specifically which positions they're talking about.

I mean, obviously we're still going to have department chairs, academic deans, a provost, etc., just like you'll always have a principal and a superintendent. Those people aren't where the growth in spending is coming from. The reason why admin spending has blown up is because of two types of employees:

1) Staff members who do some technical, back-of-house job that faculty don't even know exists. E.g. the people who make sure that scholarships get routed to students who were awarded them, the guy who supervises our entire night janitorial staff (hundreds of people who are totally invisible to folks like me), the lady who writes contracts for study abroad programs, the person who handles visiting talent at the performing arts center, etc.

2) Staff members whose main job is making sure we're complying with some law or policy. That's the entire TIX office, several people in financial aid, about half of everyone in grants and contracts, an uncertain number of people in facilities and services, a person or two at UPD, etc. We absolutely must have those people, even if I don't like the regulation that we're hiring them to comply with.

If you want to cut back on administration, you need to greatly reduce the amount of regulation and oversight that we are subject to. That simply isn't going to happen, and regardless it's not our fault.

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

I will acknowledge that public sector administrators are our own worst enemy when it comes to being unaccountable to the public that we serve. We're reaping the consequences of that as we speak.

 

[Ilov80s]

You can prep for a test. There's no doubt in my mind. There are cheat codes.

For sure. In college my wife ran ACT test prep classes ran by the ACT. She said with just 10-20 hours of instruction, kids were pretty much guaranteed to signficantly raise their scores just based on how they took the test.

 

[Sammy3469]

Okay, we also employ quite a few more admissions people and quite a few more professional advisors than we used to. If faculty would like to spend more of their time doing recruiting visits and helping students figure out which general education classes best fit their spirit animal, then we can probably find some savings. But strangely, I have never encountered a faculty member who wanted to spend more time on that stuff.

This is actually tied to a lot of the "need" for a college degree. Today a lot of kids (I know its true in NYC and out on the west coast) applying to 30+ colleges (granted that would include the entire UC or Cal State system, but they are still writing 15-20 applications) whereas we probably applied to 5 at most. I don't know how you solve that as it also forces the high schools to have similar support for the applications.

 

[Ilov80s]

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

Not all admin are the same. Builing princiapls and vice principals and deans of students, they deserve every penny and I would gladly take more of them at my school. They probably have the hardest jobs in education because they only ever deal with unhappy people. Parents mad about a teacher, a teacher mad about student, students mad at other students. Brutal job. Of course you need HR and other things like that. The real issue are curriculum specialists, assessment coordinators and all these fluff jobs who spend 95% of their time drinking coffee, ordering food and looking at data. Then they provide teachers back with some "no duh" fantasy land advice. Was complaining to a coordinator of mine who was only ever a speech and language path. I wasn't looking for help, just explaining the difficulty in our chem class of trying to instruct certain kids while other kids were so loud. Her genius suggestion was that I should ask the other kids to be quiet. Oh wow can't believe I hadn't though of that.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

Just a different world. Schools are an investment, not a source of revenue.

 

[Sammy3469]

The issue is starting to be directed from above and through legislation. The state of Ohio has mandated that schools develop cell phone policies to have in place for the 2025-26 school year. This affords schools some time to figure out how they will tackle the problem. I have a pocket holder system in my room and students are expected to put their phones into the pocket holder when they come to class. If they do not, and I see the phone out for unauthorized reasons, I confiscate the phone and turn it into the office. This year, our school is trying to make that common practice across all classrooms. The office is starting to track infractions with escalating consequences for having your phone confiscated. I say "unauthorized use" because frankly there are times I want students to use their phones. It can be a convenient tool in the physics classroom...taking video of an experimental trial to improve measurement, use as a timing device, measuring angles of incline, etc... So there are times I will tell students to feel free to use their phones. Starting this year, students are not permitted to take there phones when they leave class to use the restroom. They are not permitted in study halls. We are trying to implement practices now in anticipation of the impending state directed initiatives. I should mention that all students at our school are issued a Chromebook, so they do have access to things without needing their cell phones. I do think cell phone restriction is a good thing, but honestly, they still find ways to connect and get into mischief with the Chromebooks, so I am not sure how effective all the cell phone policies will be at eliminating the undesired behaviors that come with them.

FWIW, at least for my kid, the use of computers basically replaces the phone and causes the same concentration issues. I will say I'm sure its fantastic for some subset of kids that in the past were getting left behind, but I know for mine physically writing is a much better way to learn that cycling through Spanish cards. I know we've had to teach him how to learn outside of the computer work.

 

[msudaisy26]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

Super,

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

This exact same argument comes up all the time in higher ed too. When people talk about the need to cut back on administration, it's always good to ask them specifically which positions they're talking about.

I mean, obviously we're still going to have department chairs, academic deans, a provost, etc., just like you'll always have a principal and a superintendent. Those people aren't where the growth in spending is coming from. The reason why admin spending has blown up is because of two types of employees:

1) Staff members who do some technical, back-of-house job that faculty don't even know exists. E.g. the people who make sure that scholarships get routed to students who were awarded them, the guy who supervises our entire night janitorial staff (hundreds of people who are totally invisible to folks like me), the lady who writes contracts for study abroad programs, the person who handles visiting talent at the performing arts center, etc.

2) Staff members whose main job is making sure we're complying with some law or policy. That's the entire TIX office, several people in financial aid, about half of everyone in grants and contracts, an uncertain number of people in facilities and services, a person or two at UPD, etc. We absolutely must have those people, even if I don't like the regulation that we're hiring them to comply with.

If you want to cut back on administration, you need to greatly reduce the amount of regulation and oversight that we are subject to. That simply isn't going to happen, and regardless it's not our fault.

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

I am an administrator, I would like to know what your definition of a lot of money is.

 

[Kev4029]

Not sure throwing more money at these school districts will solve the problem.

It starts with Administration. Our schools district is top heavy, with Admin giving themselves huge raises going into a budget deficit........only so they can then take a partial cut from the raise they just gave themselves. Then they can say " see, admin is feeling the cuts too.".....meanwhile, teachers and students, in the classrooms are told to do more with less.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, but what exactly is "administration"? Are these all non-instructional staff? Are we just talking people like the superintendent and HR managers?

This exact same argument comes up all the time in higher ed too. When people talk about the need to cut back on administration, it's always good to ask them specifically which positions they're talking about.

I mean, obviously we're still going to have department chairs, academic deans, a provost, etc., just like you'll always have a principal and a superintendent. Those people aren't where the growth in spending is coming from. The reason why admin spending has blown up is because of two types of employees:

1) Staff members who do some technical, back-of-house job that faculty don't even know exists. E.g. the people who make sure that scholarships get routed to students who were awarded them, the guy who supervises our entire night janitorial staff (hundreds of people who are totally invisible to folks like me), the lady who writes contracts for study abroad programs, the person who handles visiting talent at the performing arts center, etc.

2) Staff members whose main job is making sure we're complying with some law or policy. That's the entire TIX office, several people in financial aid, about half of everyone in grants and contracts, an uncertain number of people in facilities and services, a person or two at UPD, etc. We absolutely must have those people, even if I don't like the regulation that we're hiring them to comply with.

If you want to cut back on administration, you need to greatly reduce the amount of regulation and oversight that we are subject to. That simply isn't going to happen, and regardless it's not our fault.

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

How do you know that admin are making? And if you don't know what they do, how do you know that they make too much?

I looked up my school district (Denver-metro, high cost of living) and here are some sample salaries from what they consider "Administrators" (median salaries for the district):

• Elementary School Assistant Principal - $101,855
• K-8 Principal - $142,956
• Directors of various programs (Athletics, Food/Nutrition, Special Education, Safety/Security) - $129,255
• Directors of various other programs (IT, Communications, Transportation) - $142,956
• Executive Director of Education Operations (the district has 4 deputy superintendents, this is their category) - $156,656
• The Superintendent made roughly $260k a couple years ago.

My district has roughly 52,000 kids and a little more than 3000 teachers. There are also categories for a variety of back office types which they call professional technical employees - these are the cafeteria staff, bus dispatch, payroll, grant writers, HR, compliance staff, curriculum developers, general IT staff, etc. The top range for those staff is $111,929.

I'm sure there are positions and staff that are less necessary than others, but that is no different from the private sector.

 

[Manster]

All I want to know is why our school district admin gave themselves up to a 21% raise with a looming budget crisis.......they literally showed us the graph that showed where expenses crossed available funds.

Meetings were held to appease the tax paying public. I straight up asked the vice superintendent (who got a 21% raise) how they can justify these raises with a KNOWN budget deficit looming.......funny thing is I don't even remember what his response was, other than he explained it away withoit really answering me.

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

The only options we have are moving our kids to another district or just deal with what we have. We can't afford private if we want to save for college, and retirement!

 

[Ilov80s]

All I want to know is why our school district admin gave themselves up to a 21% raise with a looming budget crisis.......they literally showed us the graph that showed where expenses crossed available funds.

Meetings were held to appease the tax paying public. I straight up asked the vice superintendent (who got a 21% raise) how they can justify these raises with a KNOWN budget deficit looming.......funny thing is I don't even remember what his response was, other than he explained it away withoit really answering me.

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

The only options we have are moving our kids to another district or just deal with what we have. We can't afford private if we want to save for college, and retirement!

Well you could actually vote out the school board that is approving this policy, organize your community or even run yourself. There’s probably no area of government easier to influence, it’s as local as it gets. Admins can’t give themselves raises. That’s almost certainly bargained with the school board. Democratically elected people are managing the money and approving those raises.

 

[Manster]

All I want to know is why our school district admin gave themselves up to a 21% raise with a looming budget crisis.......they literally showed us the graph that showed where expenses crossed available funds.

Meetings were held to appease the tax paying public. I straight up asked the vice superintendent (who got a 21% raise) how they can justify these raises with a KNOWN budget deficit looming.......funny thing is I don't even remember what his response was, other than he explained it away withoit really answering me.

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

The only options we have are moving our kids to another district or just deal with what we have. We can't afford private if we want to save for college, and retirement!

Well you could actually vote out the school board that is approving this policy, organize your community or even run yourself. There’s probably no area of government easier to influence, it’s as local as it gets. Admins can’t give themselves raises. That’s almost certainly bargained with the school board. Democratically elected people are managing the money and approving those raises.

Gotta be some corruptness I would think......not sure how else those raises go thru

 

[Ilov80s]

All I want to know is why our school district admin gave themselves up to a 21% raise with a looming budget crisis.......they literally showed us the graph that showed where expenses crossed available funds.

Meetings were held to appease the tax paying public. I straight up asked the vice superintendent (who got a 21% raise) how they can justify these raises with a KNOWN budget deficit looming.......funny thing is I don't even remember what his response was, other than he explained it away withoit really answering me.

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

The only options we have are moving our kids to another district or just deal with what we have. We can't afford private if we want to save for college, and retirement!

Well you could actually vote out the school board that is approving this policy, organize your community or even run yourself. There’s probably no area of government easier to influence, it’s as local as it gets. Admins can’t give themselves raises. That’s almost certainly bargained with the school board. Democratically elected people are managing the money and approving those raises.

Gotta be some corruptness I would think......not sure how else those raises go thru

Who knows, I mean how do CEOs of companies get $30 million bonuses while the company is free falling into bankruptcy?

 

[Galileo]

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

I'd be willing to bet if you were refunded the percentage of your tax bill that goes toward your local public school the amount wouldn't be close to affording the cost of private schools. I know it wouldn't in my region.

 

[BeTheMatch]

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

Not all admin are the same. Builing princiapls and vice principals and deans of students, they deserve every penny and I would gladly take more of them at my school. They probably have the hardest jobs in education because they only ever deal with unhappy people. Parents mad about a teacher, a teacher mad about student, students mad at other students. Brutal job. Of course you need HR and other things like that. The real issue are curriculum specialists, assessment coordinators and all these fluff jobs who spend 95% of their time drinking coffee, ordering food and looking at data. Then they provide teachers back with some "no duh" fantasy land advice. Was complaining to a coordinator of mine who was only ever a speech and language path. I wasn't looking for help, just explaining the difficulty in our chem class of trying to instruct certain kids while other kids were so loud. Her genius suggestion was that I should ask the other kids to be quiet. Oh wow can't believe I hadn't though of that.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

Just a different world. Schools are an investment, not a source of revenue.

My wife is a director of curriculum and works 12-16 hours a day. Five days a week. 52 weeks a year.

I don't really view that as a fluff job.

 

[Ilov80s]

I won't pretend to understand what admin in public schools actually do. Lots of meetings to precipitate more meetings? And I understand that these positions are needed to a point.....and the teachers see getting to admin as a goal. My problem lies in the fact that these admin positions are making a lot of money, and seem to be pretty insulated when the system is failing.......and the only answer is to stick their hands out asking for more money.

Not all admin are the same. Builing princiapls and vice principals and deans of students, they deserve every penny and I would gladly take more of them at my school. They probably have the hardest jobs in education because they only ever deal with unhappy people. Parents mad about a teacher, a teacher mad about student, students mad at other students. Brutal job. Of course you need HR and other things like that. The real issue are curriculum specialists, assessment coordinators and all these fluff jobs who spend 95% of their time drinking coffee, ordering food and looking at data. Then they provide teachers back with some "no duh" fantasy land advice. Was complaining to a coordinator of mine who was only ever a speech and language path. I wasn't looking for help, just explaining the difficulty in our chem class of trying to instruct certain kids while other kids were so loud. Her genius suggestion was that I should ask the other kids to be quiet. Oh wow can't believe I hadn't though of that.

I work in the private sector where my business goes under if we don't make a profit. This world is foreign to me.

Just a different world. Schools are an investment, not a source of revenue.

My wife is a director of curriculum and works 12-16 hours a day. Five days a week. 52 weeks a year.

I don't really view that as a fluff job.

I didn’t say director of curriculum, that’s a really high up job at most districts. Often like the 3rd or 4th highest ranking position. Though amount worked doesn’t always equal impact on kids. The district I used to work at just created an admin position called something like “Creativity Engineer for Elementary”. I don’t know how much this person will clock in hours-wise but I have real doubts that it will be the best way to spend $120,000.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

All I want to know is why our school district admin gave themselves up to a 21% raise with a looming budget crisis.......they literally showed us the graph that showed where expenses crossed available funds.

Meetings were held to appease the tax paying public. I straight up asked the vice superintendent (who got a 21% raise) how they can justify these raises with a KNOWN budget deficit looming.......funny thing is I don't even remember what his response was, other than he explained it away withoit really answering me.

I wish I could take my tax money that funds our district and use it for private school.

The only options we have are moving our kids to another district or just deal with what we have. We can't afford private if we want to save for college, and retirement!

Well you could actually vote out the school board that is approving this policy, organize your community or even run yourself. There’s probably no area of government easier to influence, it’s as local as it gets. Admins can’t give themselves raises. That’s almost certainly bargained with the school board. Democratically elected people are managing the money and approving those raises.

Great post, and it goes back to something that I've observed in my own community and mentioned earlier: we have competent, serious people on our local school board, and it shows. I have at least sort of known a lot of them over the years. They're very good at their day jobs, and those skills translate pretty well to public administration, especially at that level. Having high-quality people on your school board, as opposed to wingnuts of various flavors, is a pretty good indicator that your community genuinely cares about the quality of their schools.

(This is high praise coming from me. I like public schools, but I'm not the sort of cheerleader who is going to reflexively praise his town's school board or PTA. I have a very light trigger finger when it comes to criticizing public officials, including local leadership.)

 

[bigbottom]

Couldn't agree more with the practical education stuff.

Several years ago, a nearby rural high school reached out to me and asked me to "teach" a presentation on how to apply for a job. It was real-life practical stuff. Lots of stuff that seemed like it should be obvious but wasn't. We videoed "job interviews" I gave them at the first of the semester and then again at the end of the semester and the improvement was remarkable.

I don't know how common that sort of thing is, but I thought it was a great idea from the school.

Not common enough, I don't think. How to do taxes, consequences of credit cards, how to change your oil or a tire, how to replace a light fixture and on and on and on. I don't know how you fit it in unfortunately with all the other requirements. The more options a school tries to give its kids, the harder it is to implement. It seems like almost everyone agrees with the idea of more practical education. I'm not sure why that isn't catching on in schools more.

Do they still have classes like home ec and woodshop?

 

[belljr]

Couldn't agree more with the practical education stuff.

Several years ago, a nearby rural high school reached out to me and asked me to "teach" a presentation on how to apply for a job. It was real-life practical stuff. Lots of stuff that seemed like it should be obvious but wasn't. We videoed "job interviews" I gave them at the first of the semester and then again at the end of the semester and the improvement was remarkable.

I don't know how common that sort of thing is, but I thought it was a great idea from the school.

Not common enough, I don't think. How to do taxes, consequences of credit cards, how to change your oil or a tire, how to replace a light fixture and on and on and on. I don't know how you fit it in unfortunately with all the other requirements. The more options a school tries to give its kids, the harder it is to implement. It seems like almost everyone agrees with the idea of more practical education. I'm not sure why that isn't catching on in schools more.

Do they still have classes like home ec and woodshop?

Varies by school I'm sure. Not sure about home ec. But we have woodshop, metalshop, drafting and other electives

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I don’t have a strong opinion but I was in a bookstore the other day and heard some guy talking about how he’s only in his second year as a middle school science teacher and he’s now the only science teacher in the school so he was named the head of the department…

 

[BassNBrew]

kinda off topic...but I would love to see full-year school.

we can stil ldo the standard 180 days in class, but I would close up the summer break and spread out those days throughout the year.

Many kids become slugs in the summer, and I know my wife spends a good month reteaching what they forgot by the time September comes around.

It would also help working people who need to find childcare for 2 months straight. Watching kids on a staggered schedule wouldn't be such a large burden.

Plus, I think it could have positive effects on things like tourism and travel as we don't need to wait for that one 'universal" spring break season. We could spread out the times off and give people a chance to travel w/o the whole mass traveling at the same time.

Helps with facility usage too. Problem is sports. Can't have a 1/4 of your football team on break each 1/4 of the season.