Public Schools are getting worse (1 Viewer)

[fantasy stud]

So, 23 year middle school math teacher here and parent of a 9th grader. In my school/district things have declined especially in the last 10 years. One issue is decisions are made by district and even state people who are not on campus or in the classroom. Curriculum, programs, and class sizes are a few examples of things that are worse now then 10 years ago. We used to follow a class size amendment where there wasn't more than 22 in a class. this year I have classes as high as 28 and 25 is my smallest. We actually had a math curriculum that teachers loved. Of course, the district went against the teachers' recommendation and replaced it. Last, at the school level, they just keep adding more on our plate. Planning period meetings, ridiculous lesson plan requirements, and added responsibilities. The job keeps getting harder.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Getting ready to start year 32 teaching math in a smaller high school in Washington state. A few things I think...

1. I love my job.
2. Would do it for less money. My salary went up significantly over the past five years.
3. Students in my district have wildly diverse opportunities. Both academic and occupational.
4. Lots of great parents. Some terrible ones. Either way, I put in a big effort to remind myself that kids don't get to pick their parents.
5. I don't close the door on a kids opportunity, ever. There's always a way forward.
6. Admin have a horrible job. They've been handcuffed by policy, laws, and fear of parents.
7. The schools in my county are all great. Very similar. Way better than what I remember as a kid in the 80s.
8. Cell phones are problem for kids. Highly recommend the book "The Anxious Generation". We're going to see more and more schools outright ban smart phones.
9. Education funding varies wildly from state to state. It can have a big impact on failing, surviving, or thriving.

Last note: I just spend two years teaching in a wealthy private international school in China. Wealthy asian parents are the bomb. They work hard making sure their kids work hard. Really going to miss the asian parents.

Edit: Last last note: Any attempt to blame children for the any form of societal problem will bring my rage. They didn't create the world they live in. You did. Kids aren't worse today in any way. They're reacting to the world you handed them. Kids these days? Seriously? If I hear anyone utter the phrase "kids these days" I lose my mind and go off. Don't go there. It's the largest trigger I got. I will fong you.

Perfect post.

~Mrs. SLB and I went to private school through HS. Both of our son's, public school.

A couple of years ago, a no phone in class policy was instituted with overwhelming support of parents. Kids have to check their silicone in a lock box before entering the classroom. Parents are required to sign an agreement that if their precious angel is caught with a Graham Bell device in class, the school can confiscate it for an extended period of. Second non-compliance results in serious disciplinary action.

Personal Finance is a required course.

"Kids these days"

Last January I was invited to talk to the students about business. I couldn't have been more impressed with the thoughtful, intelligent, questions. I left there feeling better about the future.


I've helped coach our youngest Legion baseball team the last couple of years. 16-17 year olds for the most part. Collectively they probably attend half a dozen different schools, most of them public. Every time I hear someone complain about "kids these days", I refer to them. Are they different than previous generations? Absolutely. They're better. By a lot. They still bust each other balls but they are smart, kind and caring. Almost all of them have a job. I'm sure there might be an exception or two, but smoking, drinking and drugging, is viewed as something losers do.

Again, perfect post, David. My sincerest gratitude to you and all of the teachers out there. Except Tanner of course.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

So, 23 year middle school math teacher here and parent of a 9th grader. In my school/district things have declined especially in the last 10 years. One issue is decisions are made by district and even state people who are not on campus or in the classroom. Curriculum, programs, and class sizes are a few examples of things that are worse now then 10 years ago. We used to follow a class size amendment where there wasn't more than 22 in a class. this year I have classes as high as 28 and 25 is my smallest. We actually had a math curriculum that teachers loved. Of course, the district went against the teachers' recommendation and replaced it. Last, at the school level, they just keep adding more on our plate. Planning period meetings, ridiculous lesson plan requirements, and added responsibilities. The job keeps getting harder.

Oof. This lines up so closely with what I hear from friends who are teachers. I’m sorry that this is what you are experiencing — thank you for continuing to do the job.

All of this fits within a broader theme that I call The Rise of the Bureaucrat Class. Every industry I come across is facing the same underlying trend: more administrators providing “oversight” and “expertise.” Fewer front line people doing the real job every day. Bureaucrats sitting in ivory towers pretending to have the answers, mostly detached (or insulated) from reality. This is true in healthcare, education, higher ed, heck it is true in insurance (the most boring industry on earth). If you trace back the problems Boeing is having, a lot of it can partially be tied to “business people” (i.e. bureaucrats) ignoring the engineers.

This is a massive trend that crosses industries, but it has somewhat unique implications and consequences for each industry. It is hard to imagine an industry where the spillover could be more damaging than education, because it directly affects such a large portion of society.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So, 23 year middle school math teacher here and parent of a 9th grader. In my school/district things have declined especially in the last 10 years. One issue is decisions are made by district and even state people who are not on campus or in the classroom. Curriculum, programs, and class sizes are a few examples of things that are worse now then 10 years ago. We used to follow a class size amendment where there wasn't more than 22 in a class. this year I have classes as high as 28 and 25 is my smallest. We actually had a math curriculum that teachers loved. Of course, the district went against the teachers' recommendation and replaced it. Last, at the school level, they just keep adding more on our plate. Planning period meetings, ridiculous lesson plan requirements, and added responsibilities. The job keeps getting harder.

Oof. This lines up so closely with what I hear from friends who are teachers. I’m sorry that this is what you are experiencing — thank you for continuing to do the job.

All of this fits within a broader theme that I call The Rise of the Bureaucrat Class. Every industry I come across is facing the same underlying trend: more administrators providing “oversight” and “expertise.” Fewer front line people doing the real job every day. Bureaucrats sitting in ivory towers pretending to have the answers, mostly detached (or insulated) from reality. This is true in healthcare, education, higher ed, heck it is true in insurance (the most boring industry on earth). If you trace back the problems Boeing is having, a lot of it can partially be tied to “business people” (i.e. bureaucrats) ignoring the engineers.

This is a massive trend that crosses industries, but it has somewhat unique implications and consequences for each industry. It is hard to imagine an industry where the spillover could be more damaging than education, because it directly affects such a large portion of society.

I am very strongly inclined to agree with you that what we're talking about is part of a much broader breakdown of general competence across a wide variety of "professional" sectors. I don't know that I agree with your causal explanation, but I don't necessarily disagree either. I don't have a well-developed theory for this, and it would be way too political regardless so it's not worth getting into. But you are right about our educational issues being downstream of a bigger issue.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

So, 23 year middle school math teacher here and parent of a 9th grader. In my school/district things have declined especially in the last 10 years. One issue is decisions are made by district and even state people who are not on campus or in the classroom. Curriculum, programs, and class sizes are a few examples of things that are worse now then 10 years ago. We used to follow a class size amendment where there wasn't more than 22 in a class. this year I have classes as high as 28 and 25 is my smallest. We actually had a math curriculum that teachers loved. Of course, the district went against the teachers' recommendation and replaced it. Last, at the school level, they just keep adding more on our plate. Planning period meetings, ridiculous lesson plan requirements, and added responsibilities. The job keeps getting harder.

Oof. This lines up so closely with what I hear from friends who are teachers. I’m sorry that this is what you are experiencing — thank you for continuing to do the job.

All of this fits within a broader theme that I call The Rise of the Bureaucrat Class. Every industry I come across is facing the same underlying trend: more administrators providing “oversight” and “expertise.” Fewer front line people doing the real job every day. Bureaucrats sitting in ivory towers pretending to have the answers, mostly detached (or insulated) from reality. This is true in healthcare, education, higher ed, heck it is true in insurance (the most boring industry on earth). If you trace back the problems Boeing is having, a lot of it can partially be tied to “business people” (i.e. bureaucrats) ignoring the engineers.

This is a massive trend that crosses industries, but it has somewhat unique implications and consequences for each industry. It is hard to imagine an industry where the spillover could be more damaging than education, because it directly affects such a large portion of society.

I am very strongly inclined to agree with you that what we're talking about is part of a much broader breakdown of general competence across a wide variety of "professional" sectors. I don't know that I agree with your causal explanation, but I don't necessarily disagree either. I don't have a well-developed theory for this, and it would be way too political regardless so it's not worth getting into. But you are right about our educational issues being downstream of a bigger issue.

IK: I have a high degree of respect for your views and general approach to broad topics. If you do develop a theory or decide to go deeper on the broad topic, I’d be interested in your thoughts.

I’ve been brainstorming my own view for over a decade now, but it isn’t a rigorous assessment based on hard data. It’s a gut feel from observation, anecdotes, comparing examples across industries.

Lastly, definitely not trying to get political.

 

[Ilov80s]

So, 23 year middle school math teacher here and parent of a 9th grader. In my school/district things have declined especially in the last 10 years. One issue is decisions are made by district and even state people who are not on campus or in the classroom. Curriculum, programs, and class sizes are a few examples of things that are worse now then 10 years ago. We used to follow a class size amendment where there wasn't more than 22 in a class. this year I have classes as high as 28 and 25 is my smallest. We actually had a math curriculum that teachers loved. Of course, the district went against the teachers' recommendation and replaced it. Last, at the school level, they just keep adding more on our plate. Planning period meetings, ridiculous lesson plan requirements, and added responsibilities. The job keeps getting harder.

Oof. This lines up so closely with what I hear from friends who are teachers. I’m sorry that this is what you are experiencing — thank you for continuing to do the job.

All of this fits within a broader theme that I call The Rise of the Bureaucrat Class. Every industry I come across is facing the same underlying trend: more administrators providing “oversight” and “expertise.” Fewer front line people doing the real job every day. Bureaucrats sitting in ivory towers pretending to have the answers, mostly detached (or insulated) from reality. This is true in healthcare, education, higher ed, heck it is true in insurance (the most boring industry on earth). If you trace back the problems Boeing is having, a lot of it can partially be tied to “business people” (i.e. bureaucrats) ignoring the engineers.

This is a massive trend that crosses industries, but it has somewhat unique implications and consequences for each industry. It is hard to imagine an industry where the spillover could be more damaging than education, because it directly affects such a large portion of society.

Amen brother

 

[Hooper31]

Are they different than previous generations? Absolutely. They're better. By a lot. They still bust each other balls but they are smart, kind and caring. Almost all of them have a job. I'm sure there might be an exception or two, but smoking, drinking and drugging, is viewed as something losers do.

This has largely been my experience too. Thanks for the complimentary reply, Bob.

 

[The Z Machine]

The biggest criticism I assume you will get is the near $1 billion coming out of the public schools to pay for Edchoice and I thought (but certainly know less than you) that it hasn’t resulted in a significant shift in the number of kids attending public vs private, it’s mostly money for kids who were already in private schools.

It's a daily battle- just got out of a meeting getting in front of another hit piece. Way too brief summary- the $ funding EdChoice aren't coming from public schools and the data for kids shifting from public to private won't be reflected for a few years. Expansion went live July '23, so there was no time for the public kids to shift. This year we're only expecting those that would've done it before, but couldn't afford it. Future years, we're expecting to see the shift at lower grades (K and freshman) because kids don't want to leave their established friends. Right-sizing won't take shape until next decade give-or-take, but opponents are leveraging their media resources to get in front of that data to control the narrative.

I'm not an Ohian, so I know nothing of this. Where does the EdChoice funding come from?

 

[MAC_32]

The biggest criticism I assume you will get is the near $1 billion coming out of the public schools to pay for Edchoice and I thought (but certainly know less than you) that it hasn’t resulted in a significant shift in the number of kids attending public vs private, it’s mostly money for kids who were already in private schools.

It's a daily battle- just got out of a meeting getting in front of another hit piece. Way too brief summary- the $ funding EdChoice aren't coming from public schools and the data for kids shifting from public to private won't be reflected for a few years. Expansion went live July '23, so there was no time for the public kids to shift. This year we're only expecting those that would've done it before, but couldn't afford it. Future years, we're expecting to see the shift at lower grades (K and freshman) because kids don't want to leave their established friends. Right-sizing won't take shape until next decade give-or-take, but opponents are leveraging their media resources to get in front of that data to control the narrative.

I'm not an Ohian, so I know nothing of this. Where does the EdChoice funding come from?

Simple question, loaded answer. Cliff notes here. Tl;Dr- funding formula for public schools didn't change with EdChoice expansion; it's captured in the state budget. The $ distributed to public schools has grown and is projected to continue to grow each fiscal year.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

Did you read the article?

They arent switching curriculum because they are trying to get them ready to take standardized tests. They are switching the curriculum because they switched the curriculum a while back and now half the kids cant read at grade level.

I feel like i am being punked here at this point.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

Did you read the article?

They arent switching curriculum because they are trying to get them ready to take standardized tests. They are switching the curriculum because they switched the curriculum a while back and now half the kids cant read at grade level.

I feel like i am being punked here at this point.

Yep. I read the propaganda. I’ve lived and operated in a bureaucracy long enough to know that it’s important to focus on the actions of bureaucrats, rather than the narrative they spin.

Excerpt:
But the third, called Into Reading, replaces individual books with one textbook for each grade, all called myBook.

The myBooks are filled with lessons on phonics for younger kids and then, as the grades go up through elementary school, with reading content made up of excerpts of longer narrative texts. MyBook is what is known in education circles as a “decodable text,” but one mom I spoke with, Alina Lewis, likened it to a “**** and Jane reader.” Where kids used to read and discuss whole books, they now get a few paragraphs at a time and then are prompted to answer a question. Reading has been distilled to practicing for a comprehension exam.

Back to comments:

I get that the prior system wasn’t working. I get the failure of the prior approach.
I get the importance of a phonics-heavy curriculum. (Aside: my mother was a teacher and spent 20+ years railing against “Whole Language”, which essentially was a dumb concept from PhDs in Education that de-prioritized phonics)

The article very clearly highlights a heavy emphasis on passing exams. Is that the sole goal? Nope. But it is one of many examples of how the laser focus on standardized testing has become a focal point of the educational establishment.

 

[3C's]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

 

[Jayrod]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

Did you read the article?

They arent switching curriculum because they are trying to get them ready to take standardized tests. They are switching the curriculum because they switched the curriculum a while back and now half the kids cant read at grade level.

I feel like i am being punked here at this point.

Yep. I read the propaganda. I’ve lived and operated in a bureaucracy long enough to know that it’s important to focus on the actions of bureaucrats, rather than the narrative they spin.

Excerpt:
But the third, called Into Reading, replaces individual books with one textbook for each grade, all called myBook.

The myBooks are filled with lessons on phonics for younger kids and then, as the grades go up through elementary school, with reading content made up of excerpts of longer narrative texts. MyBook is what is known in education circles as a “decodable text,” but one mom I spoke with, Alina Lewis, likened it to a “**** and Jane reader.” Where kids used to read and discuss whole books, they now get a few paragraphs at a time and then are prompted to answer a question. Reading has been distilled to practicing for a comprehension exam.

Back to comments:

I get that the prior system wasn’t working. I get the failure of the prior approach.
I get the importance of a phonics-heavy curriculum. (Aside: my mother was a teacher and spent 20+ years railing against “Whole Language”, which essentially was a dumb concept from PhDs in Education that de-prioritized phonics)

The article very clearly highlights a heavy emphasis on passing exams. Is that the sole goal? Nope. But it is one of many examples of how the laser focus on standardized testing has become a focal point of the educational establishment.

You read the propaganda? How can half the kids sucking at reading be propaganda? You saying that isnt true???

Dude. We are coming out of the dark ages of reading instruction. The bureaucracy embraced a system that wanted kids to learn to read by using clues, from pictures. By guessing. By the drowning technique.

The old system literally said a focus on accuracy was holding kids back.

They now know their conclusions were all wrong Ryan.

Now lets look at the writer of the piece. A woman that supports and encourages one of my biggest pet peeves, giving kids complicated names.

Try and find one article from that Atlantic author criticizing the old system. I searched for a long time. I couldnt find it. It seems as long as kids were 3 cueing and becoming idiots, but schools were buying tons of books, she was fine. Seems pretty obvious where her concerns lie. She has some other favorite topics to write about and she talks about them in that article too. We cant go down that road, but she brings up many of the same talking points that sent us right down the path to childhood literacy issues.

I would bet a lot of money there is much more to this "Into reading" curriculum than this author is mentioning, since her bias is quite obvious.

But even if there isnt, the beauty of a metrics based approach is that you learn real fast if it is working. The old system was so gd stupid and had a fudge factor baked right in. I mean big deal if kids were getting words a little wrong. If you waste time on that you might stop them from falling in love with reading. Every single educator that wasnt screaming from the rooftops that Lucy Calkins was the devil for the last twenty years has lost their right to say anything.

If people are unsure of how bad it was prior in New York there is no shortage of articles right around the time they decided a change was needed. Not sure a change even occurs if not for the popularity of "Sold a Story".

You see when teachers and administrators complain about standardized testing at the same time admitting what they were doing previously or would have been doing otherwise doesnt work, it is hard not to draw the conclusion that they just hate metrics and want you to stay tf out of their business.

 

[Max Power]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

I know, but it highlights the lack of quality education these kids are getting in public schools. Schools can't throw substitute teachers who aren't proficient with the materials at a problem and call it satisfactory.

In NC a substitute doesn't need a degree or teaching certificate. A person can qualify with a GED and only needs to be 20 years old. They'll also be paid less than working at the local Sheetz gas station.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If school administrators are intentionally selecting a dumbed-down reader instead of reading actual books, and they're making that decision because it better aligns with how "reading comprehension" questions on standardized tests are written, and the dumbed-down curriculum produces worse outcomes overall, that would be seem to be a pretty good example of a case in which "teaching to the test" is clearly bad.

I think standardized testing in schools is great. This sort of exercise gives us an objective, measurable way to see how kids are doing. They allow us to make year-over-year comparisons, and they allow us to compare different schools. Very importantly, it also creates a strong incentive for schools to align their curriculum with the test. This is generally a good thing! If a test is well-designed, then "teaching to the test" is indistinguishable from "teaching." Problem solved!

The issue here is that "reading comprehension" isn't an easy thing to test for. You can't ask a student to read a novel or even a long-form article and answer intelligent questions about it in a standardized-testing situation. So you have to rely on questions that approximate that experience with prompts that are only a paragraph or so in length. The argument here seems to be that the test isn't really accurately measuring the quality that we want to develop in students, so the alignment between the test (short prompts) and pedagogy (short reading assignments -- no books) is sending us down the wrong path. That's a helpful observation that at least gets at a real problem.

Edit: Then again, AP tests do manage to square this circle. Reading comprehension is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for being able to write a good essay on the AP History exam, or whatever. But those tests require a massive amount of manpower to score, and those tests are designed for a niche audience of upper-echelon HS students. States just need something they can deliver at scale to see how various schools and students are doing.

 

[the moops]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

It likely is more prevalent now, but just as an anecdote - every 7 years of my teaching back in 2011 - 2019, in two different districts, there were open positions throughout the school year. Some never got filled and were "taught" by a long term sub (no offense to subs, seriously, that is a tough, tough job)

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Almost every educator I know has worked it and lived it.

Here is a good article that talks about teaching kids how to read in NY state. By having them read fewer books. And having them instead read more snippets of text to……wait for it……get them ready to take standardized tests…..

Did you read the article?

They arent switching curriculum because they are trying to get them ready to take standardized tests. They are switching the curriculum because they switched the curriculum a while back and now half the kids cant read at grade level.

I feel like i am being punked here at this point.

Yep. I read the propaganda. I’ve lived and operated in a bureaucracy long enough to know that it’s important to focus on the actions of bureaucrats, rather than the narrative they spin.

Excerpt:
But the third, called Into Reading, replaces individual books with one textbook for each grade, all called myBook.

The myBooks are filled with lessons on phonics for younger kids and then, as the grades go up through elementary school, with reading content made up of excerpts of longer narrative texts. MyBook is what is known in education circles as a “decodable text,” but one mom I spoke with, Alina Lewis, likened it to a “**** and Jane reader.” Where kids used to read and discuss whole books, they now get a few paragraphs at a time and then are prompted to answer a question. Reading has been distilled to practicing for a comprehension exam.

Back to comments:

I get that the prior system wasn’t working. I get the failure of the prior approach.
I get the importance of a phonics-heavy curriculum. (Aside: my mother was a teacher and spent 20+ years railing against “Whole Language”, which essentially was a dumb concept from PhDs in Education that de-prioritized phonics)

The article very clearly highlights a heavy emphasis on passing exams. Is that the sole goal? Nope. But it is one of many examples of how the laser focus on standardized testing has become a focal point of the educational establishment.

You read the propaganda? How can half the kids sucking at reading be propaganda? You saying that isnt true???

Dude. We are coming out of the dark ages of reading instruction. The bureaucracy embraced a system that wanted kids to learn to read by using clues, from pictures. By guessing. By the drowning technique.

The old system literally said a focus on accuracy was holding kids back.

They now know their conclusions were all wrong Ryan.

Now lets look at the writer of the piece. A woman that supports and encourages one of my biggest pet peeves, giving kids complicated names.

Try and find one article from that Atlantic author criticizing the old system. I searched for a long time. I couldnt find it. It seems as long as kids were 3 cueing and becoming idiots, but schools were buying tons of books, she was fine. Seems pretty obvious where her concerns lie. She has some other favorite topics to write about and she talks about them in that article too. We cant go down that road, but she brings up many of the same talking points that sent us right down the path to childhood literacy issues.

I would bet a lot of money there is much more to this "Into reading" curriculum than this author is mentioning, since her bias is quite obvious.

But even if there isnt, the beauty of a metrics based approach is that you learn real fast if it is working. The old system was so gd stupid and had a fudge factor baked right in. I mean big deal if kids were getting words a little wrong. If you waste time on that you might stop them from falling in love with reading. Every single educator that wasnt screaming from the rooftops that Lucy Calkins was the devil for the last twenty years has lost their right to say anything.

If people are unsure of how bad it was prior in New York there is no shortage of articles right around the time they decided a change was needed. Not sure a change even occurs if not for the popularity of "Sold a Story".

You see when teachers and administrators complain about standardized testing at the same time admitting what they were doing previously or would have been doing otherwise doesnt work, it is hard not to draw the conclusion that they just hate metrics and want you to stay tf out of their business.

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’ve written. My mother and I have debated standardized testing pros/cons since, oh, the mid-90s. Special shout out for the reference to Lucy Calkins. My mom thinks she is the devil spawn and got into a yelling match with her in front of a panel at a conference. Good times. Anyway, point being that you and I agree on a lot.

I do question whether or not you read the full article, or if you read my post in its entirety, with the intent of understanding it vs purely looking for a debate.

It’s pretty clear from the article that NY has pivoted to a model where kids read short snippets of text to practice for standardized tests, and will be far less likely to read full books. We could debate whether or not that is good or bad.

 

[dutch]

This thread is highlighting a pretty big issue in the country's education model and I appreciate all of you who are taking the time to inform those of us like me who've been ignorant this was happening. It led me to look into some of what's been talked about and i found this recent article followed by this response from Lucy Calkins. The comments sections of both are of equal interest as the main articles. My eyes are more open today than they have been, thanks folks!

 

[PIK95]

It's just a reflection on american society imo. This place has been a complete SShow for a while now.

 

[Nugget]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

I know, but it highlights the lack of quality education these kids are getting in public schools. Schools can't throw substitute teachers who aren't proficient with the materials at a problem and call it satisfactory.

In NC a substitute doesn't need a degree or teaching certificate. A person can qualify with a GED and only needs to be 20 years old. They'll also be paid less than working at the local Sheetz gas station.

Public school teachers on average make quite a bit more than private school teachers. Is certification required at all in private schools?

 

[the moops]

It's just a reflection on american society imo. This place has been a complete SShow for a while now.

No it's really not.

Public schools are not a **** show. Neither is this great country.

Sure, there are problems, but in general our schools and country are great.

 

[Max Power]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

I know, but it highlights the lack of quality education these kids are getting in public schools. Schools can't throw substitute teachers who aren't proficient with the materials at a problem and call it satisfactory.

In NC a substitute doesn't need a degree or teaching certificate. A person can qualify with a GED and only needs to be 20 years old. They'll also be paid less than working at the local Sheetz gas station.

Public school teachers on average make quite a bit more than private school teachers. Is certification required at all in private schools?

I'm not sure on that. My wife used to volunteer a lot at our daughter's elementary school and became good friends with some teachers and staff. They talked her into applying to be a substitute there and that's where we learned what a low bar it is for entry. This was during the covid years, so we thought it was just a shortage at the time, but NC doesn't pay teachers or subs very well, so its an ongoing problem.

 

[PIK95]

It's just a reflection on american society imo. This place has been a complete SShow for a while now.

No it's really not.

Public schools are not a **** show. Neither is this great country.

Sure, there are problems, but in general our schools and country are great.

I am married to a family of public school teachers. And neither is even close to "great" right now. And the pay is a joke for what you have to deal with and be responsible for with that education level. My son was considering being a teacher. My wife and I banned him. We are paying so he was fine with it.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This thread is highlighting a pretty big issue in the country's education model and I appreciate all of you who are taking the time to inform those of us like me who've been ignorant this was happening. It led me to look into some of what's been talked about and i found this recent article followed by this response from Lucy Calkins. The comments sections of both are of equal interest as the main articles. My eyes are more open today than they have been, thanks folks!

That response from Calkins is so on brand. I had never heard of those jump rope readers. Well of course not, because I hadnt read anything about her for a bit. They were just released. Like right when she wrote that response. "Regarded by many as best in class" Google says they were released in April of 2024, so the next month. So basically people that worked on them say they were best in class, lol.

She massively overhauled her program a few years ago in response to criticism. And of course now acts like she was a proponent of these things all along.

It isnt just her written stuff that is so terrible. You can find countless accounts online of people that went to her in person training sessions that school districts shelled out millions for.

She is a grifter. Just awful.

 

[parasaurolophus]

If school administrators are intentionally selecting a dumbed-down reader instead of reading actual books, and they're making that decision because it better aligns with how "reading comprehension" questions on standardized tests are written, and the dumbed-down curriculum produces worse outcomes overall, that would be seem to be a pretty good example of a case in which "teaching to the test" is clearly bad.

What makes short exerpts dumbed down? If you read 1000 words that are short exerpts or 1000 words that are part of a book how does that matter when it comes to making sure a kid knows how to read?

I understand the arguments for enjoyment of subject material, but I think it is important to note here that reading instruction is part of a larger ELA curriculum. These kids will still read entire books or write essays/papers for their english and writing classes depending on their age.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If school administrators are intentionally selecting a dumbed-down reader instead of reading actual books, and they're making that decision because it better aligns with how "reading comprehension" questions on standardized tests are written, and the dumbed-down curriculum produces worse outcomes overall, that would be seem to be a pretty good example of a case in which "teaching to the test" is clearly bad.

What makes short exerpts dumbed down? If you read 1000 words that are short exerpts or 1000 words that are part of a book how does that matter when it comes to making sure a kid knows how to read?

I understand the arguments for enjoyment of subject material, but I think it is important to note here that reading instruction is part of a larger ELA curriculum. These kids will still read entire books or write essays/papers for their english and writing classes depending on their age.

I think the article used the term "reading endurance." I've never seen that expression before, but it kind of exactly captures my thoughts on this. There's something to be said for reading long articles (the ability to construct, understand, and deconstruct a nuanced, sophisticated argument) and books (same, but with fiction). It's great to have kids learn about irony by reading The Lottery, but at some point we owe it to them to give them something a little more challenging, like Macbeth or something*. It's the reading equivalent of going from a recorder to a violin.

*Needs to be scaled by grade level obviously.

 

[djmich]

It's just a reflection on american society imo. This place has been a complete SShow for a while now.

No it's really not.

Public schools are not a **** show. Neither is this great country.

Sure, there are problems, but in general our schools and country are great.

I agree with this. I think there are areas for improvement, as with anything, but I've yet to see anything beyond anecdotes that the US education system is not still highly effective.

 

[parasaurolophus]

think the article used the term "reading endurance." I've never seen that expression before, but it kind of exactly captures my thoughts on this. There's something to be said for reading long articles (the ability to construct, understand, and deconstruct a nuanced, sophisticated argument) and books (same, but with fiction). It's great to have kids learn about irony by reading The Lottery, but at some point we owe it to them to give them something a little more challenging, like Macbeth or something*. It's the reading equivalent of going from a recorder to a violin.

FWIW Macbeth is on the list for grades 9-12 for NY ELA instructional materials to choose from.

 

[beer 30]

In NC a substitute doesn't need a degree or teaching certificate. A person can qualify with a GED and only needs to be 20 years old. They'll also be paid less than working at the local Sheetz gas station.

**** them kids!

Pretty sure it's the same in SC

Public school teachers on average make quite a bit more than private school teachers. Is certification required at all in private schools?

In SC, no. It's encouraged but I don't think you have to have the certification a public teacher has to carry. We have 3-4 private schools around here and my daughter constantly berates them for the low quality of education they are putting out. Not sure how she knows since she is a public teacher but I take her word for it.

To anyone reading through this thread and thinking, like I used to, what has happened to the school system, I was blissfully ignorant of all this until D1 started teaching and pulled back the curtain on how tough the job really is. I always thought it was cush, get done at 3:30, summers off, all the things. It ain't that at all and I have new found respect for anyone doing the job or thinking about going into teaching.

 

[MAC_32]

Related to the OP, just saw this come across a local group: Warhill High is in desparate need of a Computer Science teacher! Please spread the word!

The school year started yesterday. Sad that they still have an open position. Very good school system though so hopefully they find someone soon.

Uh, dude...this is everywhere. Lots of districts have unfilled open positions.

My wife had their main Special Ed teacher quit during the first week of school and they had to go through an outside consultant to find her.

I know, but it highlights the lack of quality education these kids are getting in public schools. Schools can't throw substitute teachers who aren't proficient with the materials at a problem and call it satisfactory.

In NC a substitute doesn't need a degree or teaching certificate. A person can qualify with a GED and only needs to be 20 years old. They'll also be paid less than working at the local Sheetz gas station.

Public school teachers on average make quite a bit more than private school teachers. Is certification required at all in private schools?

Some? Yes. All? No. Public's been trending that way for a while as well and it's going to continue to increase. Our society has made teaching an unattractive profession. If we want that to change then we ourselves must first change.

 

[Max Power]

Not picking on public schools because this isn't really their fault, but I received a recorded message from the Superintendent last night telling parents to talk to their kids about the dangers and seriousness of posting threats or rumors on social media. Any social media post brought to their attention that hints at, jokes about or spreads rumors of violence, threats, or other illegal activity will be forwarded to local law enforcement.

Talking with my two high school kids, they've had several instances already this school year where a large number of police reported to the school to investigate a potential threat. One instance caused a "lockdown". Nothing has been deemed credible so far. They claim its dumb kids posting dumb things on-line or gossip that gets spread around which is forcing the school staff to take action. The kids doing it don't seem to care because so far, they haven't faced real consequences for their actions. So it is nice to see the school take such a firm stance.

I'm unsure if this some sort of social media trend going around right now, but there is a lot of reporting that this is a nationwide problem with some counties even cancelling classes due to the threats.

So again, maybe this isn't a public school gripe... but it's just more and more on the pile of how frustrated I am as a parent with the state of schools and kids today.

 

[beer 30]

So again, maybe this isn't a public school gripe... but it's just more and more on the pile of how frustrated I am as a parent with the state of schools and kids today.

I don't think you can lay this at the feet of public schools, this is a societal thing. The kid in FL this week that got perp walked for doing this was a good example. As a parent who thinks he raised two well adjusted kids that know right from wrong, I like to think they knew something like that would never fly in our house. I put this more on parents/family than schools. If you play an active role in your kids life, you know what's going on. Sure they will slip one past the goalie every once in a while to keep you sharp but calling in threats to school or posting pics of your airsoft collection and threatening people should be so far from their mind of being ok that it doesn't become an issue. Sorry for the soap box speech.

 

[Max Power]

So again, maybe this isn't a public school gripe... but it's just more and more on the pile of how frustrated I am as a parent with the state of schools and kids today.

I don't think you can lay this at the feet of public schools, this is a societal thing. The kid in FL this week that got perp walked for doing this was a good example. As a parent who thinks he raised two well adjusted kids that know right from wrong, I like to think they knew something like that would never fly in our house. I put this more on parents/family than schools. If you play an active role in your kids life, you know what's going on. Sure they will slip one past the goalie every once in a while to keep you sharp but calling in threats to school or posting pics of your airsoft collection and threatening people should be so far from their mind of being ok that it doesn't become an issue. Sorry for the soap box speech.

I don't disagree with you. It is societal and the schools are put in a tough spot. Schools are almost forced to overreact to everything they hear because not doing enough isn't an option. It's these "pranks" or whatever causing school closures and remote learning now on top of all the issues the schools already face... Schools had it bad enough being understaffed, underfunded and under resourced, but now to deal with regular threats. Homeschooling is sounding better and better.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So again, maybe this isn't a public school gripe... but it's just more and more on the pile of how frustrated I am as a parent with the state of schools and kids today.

I don't think you can lay this at the feet of public schools, this is a societal thing. The kid in FL this week that got perp walked for doing this was a good example. As a parent who thinks he raised two well adjusted kids that know right from wrong, I like to think they knew something like that would never fly in our house. I put this more on parents/family than schools. If you play an active role in your kids life, you know what's going on. Sure they will slip one past the goalie every once in a while to keep you sharp but calling in threats to school or posting pics of your airsoft collection and threatening people should be so far from their mind of being ok that it doesn't become an issue. Sorry for the soap box speech.

I don't disagree with you. It is societal and the schools are put in a tough spot. Schools are almost forced to overreact to everything they hear because not doing enough isn't an option. It's these "pranks" or whatever causing school closures and remote learning now on top of all the issues the schools already face... Schools had it bad enough being understaffed, underfunded and under resourced, but now to deal with regular threats. Homeschooling is sounding better and better.

Yeah, this is a problem that just didn't exist when we were kids. I don't envy schools for being placed in this sort of position.

 

[pecorino]

I've probably posted to this forum in the past, not sure. Been a teacher / administrator in private schools my whole professional life (32 years) but was a product of a middle-class, suburban PA public school education. Any time I went to a conference with both public and private teachers, it struck me so clearly that our jobs are completely different. There appeared to be so much red tape and bureaucracy in public schools that teachers were tied in knots doing a lot of work that had little to do with the art of teaching. In private school circles, we have the time and wherewithal to do peer coaching, to mentor others, to discuss the pros and cons of using AI in our classrooms, all kinds of things we would want our teachers to do. Since Covid, we've been in our own little bubble here with fewer conferences so I don't know the current state of public schools. But I definitely lean towards the side of the doomsayers out there. And it's not just the schools but our society in general that do not value reading, writing, mathematics, nose-to-the-grindstone kind of stuff.

 

[beer 30]

So my 3rd grade teacher daughter dropped a new term on me yesterday, unschooled. Apparently more & more, there is a portion of the population that convinced to let their children be taught by life rather than the schools. The learn what they need to from life, no formal teaching whatsoever. I have no frame of reference where it makes any kind of sense to do this so I can't figure out what the motivation is. Happy Friday

 

[Max Power]

So my 3rd grade teacher daughter dropped a new term on me yesterday, unschooled. Apparently more & more, there is a portion of the population that convinced to let their children be taught by life rather than the schools. The learn what they need to from life, no formal teaching whatsoever. I have no frame of reference where it makes any kind of sense to do this so I can't figure out what the motivation is. Happy Friday

I'm going to guess its the parents who think the things they learned in the classroom didn't help them much throughout life and what they really needed to know as an adult they had to learn themselves. Which to some extent, I get. School doesn't prepare kids for the world when they turn 18.

I had to youtube how to solve a math problem in order to explain it to my daughter and have her show her work on paper. She quickly pointed out that I didn't know how to do it and a calculator gives her the correct answer, so why does she have to do it the hard way? The best I could tell her is that it's about learning process to get a correct answer.

It reminded me of a similar argument we're having at work right now with AI. We screen candidates for positions here and one aspect is writing a short paper on one of 20 pre-approved topics. Some candidates are using IA to write their papers and the staff is split on how acceptable it should be. Some think its cheating, while others point out that our internal workflows are now more reliant on IA and its only growing. One of our current innovation goals is to expand our AI capabilities, so it seems a bit silly to penalize people utilizing AI just because some of the older generations aren't proficient with it.

 

[Gally]

It reminded me of a similar argument we're having at work right now with AI. We screen candidates for positions here and one aspect is writing a short paper on one of 20 pre-approved topics. Some candidates are using IA to write their papers and the staff is split on how acceptable it should be. Some think its cheating, while others point out that our internal workflows are now more reliant on IA and its only growing. One of our current innovation goals is to expand our AI capabilities, so it seems a bit silly to penalize people utilizing AI just because some of the older generations aren't proficient with it.

I guess the right "answer" to this should be based on what is the purpose of the exercise? What are you trying to learn from the candidate by making them write this short paper? If the purpose to see how well they write then I would say AI shouldn't be allowed. If the purpose is to check their creativity or how their mind works then using AI to come up with the paper is an interesting approach to seeing how their mind works. Probably allow it in that case.

It really boils down to what the purpose of the assignment is trying to accomplish.

 

[Max Power]

It reminded me of a similar argument we're having at work right now with AI. We screen candidates for positions here and one aspect is writing a short paper on one of 20 pre-approved topics. Some candidates are using IA to write their papers and the staff is split on how acceptable it should be. Some think its cheating, while others point out that our internal workflows are now more reliant on IA and its only growing. One of our current innovation goals is to expand our AI capabilities, so it seems a bit silly to penalize people utilizing AI just because some of the older generations aren't proficient with it.

I guess the right "answer" to this should be based on what is the purpose of the exercise? What are you trying to learn from the candidate by making them write this short paper? If the purpose to see how well they write then I would say AI shouldn't be allowed. If the purpose is to check their creativity or how their mind works then using AI to come up with the paper is an interesting approach to seeing how their mind works. Probably allow it in that case.

It really boils down to what the purpose of the assignment is trying to accomplish.

It was initially designed to see how a candidate can utilize and source facts to support an opinion. There was also an element of "how bad do you want this position" designed into it as the turnaround time for this assignment was roughly 16 hours (homework). Obviously some people put more effort into it than others.

The purpose of the exercise may not be hitting the mark anymore, and we've had conversations about removing it. We just haven't thought up a better "homework" assignment yet.

 

[beer 30]

I'm going to guess its the parents who think the things they learned in the classroom didn't help them much throughout life and what they really needed to know as an adult they had to learn themselves. Which to some extent, I get. School doesn't prepare kids for the world when they turn 18.

Yea it's 100% that. It's not prevalent but it's more than zero. At the risk of offending my redneck brethren, I grew up in a small farming community in OH. If that was your gig and all you wanted to do with your life, while I wouldn't have done it, I could absolutely see someone saying school ain't gonna teach me anything I'm not going to learn by just working on the farm.

Where I live now, that's not the case. It's a middle to upper middle class area that's mostly white collar work whether it's local or Charlotte in the banking industry. From what I can gather from just D1's interactions, it's just lazy parenting. As with a lot of the issues we've covered it boils down to how involved you are with your kids and frankly, there are just some parents that are perfectly fine with it. Not me, not a lot of folks in this thread but then, given the nature of this thread, I wouldn't anticipate a parent who is laissez faire with their kids to be in here defending their position.

 

[bigbottom]

I'm going to guess its the parents who think the things they learned in the classroom didn't help them much throughout life and what they really needed to know as an adult they had to learn themselves. Which to some extent, I get. School doesn't prepare kids for the world when they turn 18.

Yea it's 100% that. It's not prevalent but it's more than zero. At the risk of offending my redneck brethren, I grew up in a small farming community in OH. If that was your gig and all you wanted to do with your life, while I wouldn't have done it, I could absolutely see someone saying school ain't gonna teach me anything I'm not going to learn by just working on the farm.

Where I live now, that's not the case. It's a middle to upper middle class area that's mostly white collar work whether it's local or Charlotte in the banking industry. From what I can gather from just D1's interactions, it's just lazy parenting. As with a lot of the issues we've covered it boils down to how involved you are with your kids and frankly, there are just some parents that are perfectly fine with it. Not me, not a lot of folks in this thread but then, given the nature of this thread, I wouldn't anticipate a parent who is laissez faire with their kids to be in here defending their position.

Re: lazy parenting, I would think having your kid be unschooled would require more effort than having them be schooled.

 

[beer 30]

I'm going to guess its the parents who think the things they learned in the classroom didn't help them much throughout life and what they really needed to know as an adult they had to learn themselves. Which to some extent, I get. School doesn't prepare kids for the world when they turn 18.

Yea it's 100% that. It's not prevalent but it's more than zero. At the risk of offending my redneck brethren, I grew up in a small farming community in OH. If that was your gig and all you wanted to do with your life, while I wouldn't have done it, I could absolutely see someone saying school ain't gonna teach me anything I'm not going to learn by just working on the farm.

Where I live now, that's not the case. It's a middle to upper middle class area that's mostly white collar work whether it's local or Charlotte in the banking industry. From what I can gather from just D1's interactions, it's just lazy parenting. As with a lot of the issues we've covered it boils down to how involved you are with your kids and frankly, there are just some parents that are perfectly fine with it. Not me, not a lot of folks in this thread but then, given the nature of this thread, I wouldn't anticipate a parent who is laissez faire with their kids to be in here defending their position.

Re: lazy parenting, I would think having your kid be unschooled would require more effort than having them be schooled.

Given the idea behind for unschooling, I'd disagree. The very nature of it is not giving a **** about your kids education so you show junior a shovel, you tell junior "this is a shovel", you show junior how to operate said shovel, watch him to make sure he gets the concept and move on. I suppose as you embrace more complex issues it could take some time but I don't think you are ever producing a rocket surgeon out of this approach to education.

And just so we're all clear, I'm cool with it if you chose to take this path with your kids. I don't agree with it but I'm not advocating for allocating public resources to running you down and dragging junior to school. Just be aware you're not producing too many Einstein's with this approach and the career path for said child has a very low ceiling. If you're good with that, have at it.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I put this more on parents/family than schools. If you play

I agree. But sometimes, it just doesn’t matter

 

[dgreen]

I first heard about unschooling from David Friedman, Milton Friedman's son. He's a brilliant dude. He did some form of unschooling with his kids.

 

[bagger]

Last year my youngest daughter was having a lot of problems with other girls in middle school. It escalated to problems with the teachers and eventually got to the point where my wife and I had issues with the principal. Mostly due to the principle going through my daughter's phone over a rumor that was reported to her. We were never informed of that until our daughter told us it happened.

My daughter isn't above the drama, but the school did a horrible job in so many areas managing the kids last year. We ultimately pulled her out of that middle school and she will attend a Christian private school this year. Thankfully we made the cut, in part because I agreed to help with their athletic program. Their applications were up substantially this year. Along with that, some scholarship money I tought we were going to get only cane back at 10% because according to that organization their applications were up 50% from last year.

Now what really has me annoyed is that I have two kids going to the local public high school and went back this week. So far the school has made an announcement that not all students will get a Chromebook, although it's required for their schoolwork. They also have a shortage of lockers, so not every kid is going to get a locker and some kids will have to share.

Talking to my son after his first day, his homeroom is in a trailer they placed behind the school. Apparently they have 3 of these set up this year. I haven't seen the setup yet, but it doesn't sound like there is much security.

He currently doesn't have a math teacher because the teacher quit right before school started and the school has no replacement. It's been 3 days with three different substitutes who have no idea what is going on.

To top all this off... 3 days in and there has already been a kid stabbed with a screwdriver. This is rural NC in a decent area. They have metal detectors at the entrances and even go through kids bags when they enter, but this still happens.

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

Our public schools are great where my kids are.

 

[bagger]

Not picking on public schools because this isn't really their fault, but I received a recorded message from the Superintendent last night telling parents to talk to their kids about the dangers and seriousness of posting threats or rumors on social media. Any social media post brought to their attention that hints at, jokes about or spreads rumors of violence, threats, or other illegal activity will be forwarded to local law enforcement.

Talking with my two high school kids, they've had several instances already this school year where a large number of police reported to the school to investigate a potential threat. One instance caused a "lockdown". Nothing has been deemed credible so far. They claim its dumb kids posting dumb things on-line or gossip that gets spread around which is forcing the school staff to take action. The kids doing it don't seem to care because so far, they haven't faced real consequences for their actions. So it is nice to see the school take such a firm stance.

I'm unsure if this some sort of social media trend going around right now, but there is a lot of reporting that this is a nationwide problem with some counties even cancelling classes due to the threats.

So again, maybe this isn't a public school gripe... but it's just more and more on the pile of how frustrated I am as a parent with the state of schools and kids today.

This pervasive. Our school had the same social media threat which was deemed non credible.

Not sure how this is the school’s fault.

 

[Jayrod]

We had two elementary schools in my wife/kid's school district evacuated last week (back to back days) due to online bomb threats. Obviously not credible, but the need to take everything serious just in case puts them in a bind and really disrupts the already difficult job of teaching grade school kids.

My wife (Elementary Asst Principal) had to attend an emergency meeting after school that lasted like 2 hours where they talked through how each building would handle the various threats that could come up. Luckily Thursday and Friday went through with no issue.

 

[Jayrod]

Isn't "unschooling" illegal (truancy)? Do they just claim they are homeschooling and then not do any actual education?

 

[Ilov80s]

Isn't "unschooling" illegal (truancy)? Do they just claim they are homeschooling and then not do any actual education?

Yes the bar for homeschooling is generally pretty low in most states.